Praetorian of Dorn (spoilers)

[rendingon1+]

I meant Omegon of course. Sorry, they all look the same lol.

[slitth]

Again, it would remove the main 4 (or perhaps 3, Slaanesh could probably hang in there), but each other race still has a warp presence and still creates their own gestalt entities.  Orks are still a thing, Pharos still drew the Tyranids, Necrons are still waking up.  Utopia?  Hardly.

 

That the point, the Cabal's vision of ultimate victory over Chaos is impossible. Its a fairy tale ending.

Just like all utopian goals.

The quote from Legion shows that the Alpha Legion understands this,

They know that the Emperor's goal is noble and nice, but its unreachable.

They do expect to reach the goal, instead they work with what is practical and achievable.

 

And as you point out, the Cabal's goal is also unreachable, there is not happy ending, even if they hope for it.

Do you really think that Alpha Legion would follow such a plan?

 

On the other hand the Cabal's vision also shows another option, one that horrible and dark.

One where victory is achieved by great sacrifice and sorrow, followed by a never ending fight.

That sound like more like something the Alpha Legion would do, if we assume that the quote from Legion is a example of the Alpha Legion mindset.

 

And I am more that willing to admit that the quote may just be empty words with out meaning.

But maybe it could be a small clue. We have to wait and see.

 

I'm still betting that the Alpha Legion is somehow responsible for disabling the Vengeful Spirit shields and letting the Emperor onboard.

[Withershadow]

You seem to be ignoring some/most of the supporting evidence presented so far in this thread. Again, we have confirmation that the Legion is split, both in the novels and in the FW open discussions before Alan passed. We have a description from FW that paints one of the twins as hopelessly insane and getting worse. We have older but seemingly still relevant Index Astartes/Apocrypha fluff that has them willingly join the fight against the Emperor to test themselves. We have canon events (like Istvaan) that soundly dispel any notion that they are faking it (massacring several loyal Legions is in no way practical, utopian, non-utopian, reasonable, sane, or any other adjective you've posited). We have an author base that loves Abnett's ideas no matter how silly. *executioner leopard purr*

 

Additionally, you have utterly failed to establish the Cabal's goal as utopian; much like the Emperor after Outcast Dead, they aren't playing to win but rather playing not to lose (I.e. avoiding a Slaanesh-level event, which has already been eclipsed by the Cicatrix Maledictum and humanity has yet to reach psychic awakening critical mass that will presumably swallow the galaxy). At the end of the day, everyone can decide for themselves what is happening in 40K, but your version of events feels to me to be entirely head-canon that frequently contradicts unambiguous accounts.

 

Omegon, who has been covertly working against the Cabal's vision, could very well lower the shields. This is in no way contradicted by any of the above, and in fact is now easier to accomplish since Alpharius ate it.

[rendingon1+]

Cabal: Humankind must die so all Xenos can live in happines and safety. Are you in Alpharius?

Alpharius: Totally.

[slitth]

Again, we have confirmation that the Legion is split, both in the novels and in the FW open discussions before Alan passed. We have a description from FW that paints one of the twins as hopelessly insane and getting worse.

 

I not surprised that some of the legion do not follow the plan. But I do not see the Legion as split or divided.

They would not be able capable of an assault like the one in Praetorian of Dorn of the legion was divided.

They would be far too busy fight their own internal war.

 

As for the sanity of the twins, hard to say.

The amount of slaughter of innocent people doing the Great Crusade is not an act what we would consider sanity.

 

We have older but seemingly still relevant Index Astartes/Apocrypha fluff that has them willingly join the fight against the Emperor to test themselves.

 

Is written from a outside view. How can you consider any fluff that only contains a twin as a rumour for accurate.

No this is simply how the outside world see the Alpha Legion.

 

And as with everything concerning the Alpha Legion, is could be true and it could be a lie.

 

We have canon events (like Istvaan) that soundly dispel any notion that they are faking it (massacring several loyal Legions is in no way practical, utopian, non-utopian, reasonable, sane, or any other adjective you've posited). We have an author base that loves Abnett's ideas no matter how silly. *executioner leopard purr*

 

They are deep undercover, they cannot afford to be nice or merciful to friends.

If they do not join the massacre they would be exposed and they would die to.

And if they reveal the plan beforehand they are also exposed.

 

No if they want to guild the war from behind the enemy lines, they need to be just a bad as the one they are infiltrating.

"The goal justifies the means" ring a bell.

 

Additionally, you have utterly failed to establish the Cabal's goal as utopian; much like the Emperor after Outcast Dead, they aren't playing to win but rather playing not to lose (I.e. avoiding a Slaanesh-level event, which has already been eclipsed by the Cicatrix Maledictum and humanity has yet to reach psychic awakening critical mass that will presumably swallow the galaxy). At the end of the day, everyone can decide for themselves what is happening in 40K, but your version of events feels to me to be entirely head-canon that frequently contradicts unambiguous accounts.

 

Omegon, who has been covertly working against the Cabal's vision, could very well lower the shields. This is in no way contradicted by any of the above, and in fact is now easier to accomplish since Alpharius ate it.

 

The vision of Great Crusade is a utopian dream. A dream sold to the masses to inspire and drive them.

And there's probably a lot of people in the masses that think every thing will be perfect when the crusade is over.

But that not the reality of Great Crusade, the struggle will never end.

The Emperor know this and the is not playing to win, but so chaos do not win as you say.

The Alpha Legion shows the same wisdom. The quote show us this.

 

The Cabal vision is also utopian, the Cabal believes that if they succeed that everything is perfect.

They believe this so much that they are committing a lot of resource to make this happen.

They are lost in the vision they are show in the Acuity.

That the vision could be a utter lie doesn't matter to them.

 

So we are left with some options.

1. The Alpha Legion are lost in the Acuity's vision of ultimate victory over Chaos. (I do not believe that for a second.)

2. The Alpha Legion are following the "death of Horus that the cost of the Emperor" vision. (That's my guess, as if fits the manage and maintain the flaws of man on an ongoing basis quote.)

3. The Alpha Legion are divided and following both option 1 and 2. (That would lock the twins in a war, and I have see that conflict between them, true they are keeping secrets for one another, but I do not see this conflict.)

4. The Alpha Legion are ignoring the Acuity and are following their own plan, and I have know idea what that could be.

 

[Withershadow]

Again, not everything is perfect if their plan succeeds.  It prevents Chaos swallowing the whole galaxy.  Tyranids, Orks, and Necrons remain a thing.  We've already established that the Great Crusade is a utopian and impossible ideal (which is why Alpha Legion left operatives on Terra "just in case"), but again, murdering a bunch of loyalist Legions that could have ended Horus' rebellion on the spot is in no way a "practical" alternative to said utopian goal.  Out of your multiple choice test, you've left off the right answer. 5. All of the above.  Why would they not be capable of an assault like in Praetorian of Dorn, which was implemented by a handful of operatives and then at most a company of Marines.  The Alpha Legion at this point could easily be 200,000-strong, since no one really knows their recruitment pattern and they have avoided most major conflicts and did not have to undertake an internal purge like most of the Traitor Legions did.

 

Anyway, we've gone in circles now for several pages.  I choose to take GW's/BL's terrible ideas, and rationalize them in a way that they at least make sense in the larger narrative.  You choose to ignore them entirely and construct your own narrative.  Both approaches are valid in this hobby, and yours probably comes with fewer migraines.  There is no reason to rehash the same arguments over and over.  Cheers!

 

Cabal: Humankind must die so all Xenos can live in happines and safety. Are you in Alpharius?
Alpharius: Totally.

I agree, it's friggin' idiotic.  I think it was on Dakka, but when Legion first came out I railed and raged against this idea to the point of frothing at the mouth.  But BL has decided to stick with it, because everyone is on Abnett's jock because he wrote a good alternate-universe Inquisitor series 10,000 years ago.  Anyway, we're talking about a Primarch who was surgically/psychically/psychologically altered to tear down civilizations through discord.  He is also presented with the option where humanity is put out of their misery or suffers for eons before being gobbled up by Chaos.  Also gives him an opportunity to "help dad" by also tearing down the greatest civilization ever.  

[b1soul]

"did not have to undertake an internal purge like most of the Traitor Legions did"

 

I don't think we can say that with caertainty

[Dantay VI]

We know he gave his blood to one of his commanders to fool the unit into believing the commander was Alpharius, then used the unit + operatives to destroy an Alpha legion moon-base.

 

There was a little bit of purging going on ;)

[Withershadow]

Killing witnesses to a relatively small-scale operation is a far cry from Isvaan III (before you comment, make sure you got the right Istvaan!).

 

The Legion stressed cohesion and need-to-know-only constraint on information even before they were labeled a Crusade force, so I don't think they would have quite as many "Terrans with individualism streak rebel against Primarch".  Then again, there is a new Alpha book (can't recall title) that apparently paints them with a bit more personality, so I can't comment with any certainty until I've read it.

[slitth]

Any unwanted elements were probably not informed and send on missions with low probability of survival.

It would be hard to fight a purge when you don't know a purge is in progress.

 

Any victims would probably think they are going on important missions, perform to the best of the ability and die while doing their duty.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Maybe Omegon is actually Alpharius. It's highly unlikely put there's always that remote chance however remote it is .

[bluntblade]

Edit: wrong PoD thread.

 

Edit edit: BL thread's closed, so sod it:

 

Man, that was savage at the end. Glorious voidwar scenes too.

 

I want French to write "Omega" or something similar. Given what that word means in AL vernacular, I'd bet money that it will be a book title at some stage.