Emperor's Fist Armored Company; Which 5 Tanks and Why?

[zero88]

I'd like to have a little discussion..... If you're taking the Emperor's Fist, odds are you only fielding the minimum of 5 tanks, to allow for your supporting cast to still fit in your list. So, my question is: Which 5 Leman Russes are you taking, how are you equipping them, and why?

 

I see the formation as always needing to move given the nature of 7th edition, and since BS4 is such a great boost on dakka tanks, the non-ordnance variants are the only ones I am thinking are really viable. I see Punishers and Vanquishers being the most effective, but the ranges of their weapons do not mesh well at all and you obviously want to keep all the tanks within the bubble of the commander. Maybe 2 punishers, 2 vanquishers, and an exterminator commander? This would let you be aggressive with the Punishers while letting the Vanquishers stay back a little more with the Commander in the middle.

 

Anyways, looking for ideas!

[WarriorFish]

Did someone say Demolishers? I'm pretty sure I heard someone say that... :P Ok, I'm actually serious I love them. A couple can provide a solid core to work around, as they will threaten almost anything within those 24" - tougher too with AV11 rear armour. So I'd consider them as a good option to fall back on if you can't decide, along with "when in doubt: battle cannons" :)

 

When you're going tank heavy that's a lot of points so you need to make them count. What about an Eradicator, or even two? Cheaper and brutal against anything short of Marines, their fire power would let the majority of your army focus on other things too as they mop up the main enemy troops? Otherwise the commander is much the same as normal, the difference perhaps being he's more important to keep alive, and would probably like longer range weapons to help facilitate that (as well as his positioning for maximum effect)?

 

I can see the merits of Punishers advancing to take flak (and hopefully dish out a lot more!), but you'd need to make sure they don't stray from the bonuses. With five tanks on the table I'd try and keep costs down, so I'd avoid sponsons generally and just look for appropriate hull lascannons. You'll need all the points you can spare to get supporting units in after all ;)

[duz_]

Given the limited bubble of the buff my logic is generally the 3 squads will be blast tanks that act independently of the commander. While the commander and buddy is either dual punisher or punisher/demoliser for close range anti infantry or dual vanquishers and you stick them in the backfield.

 

Its actually fairly difficult to maneuver more than 2 tanks and keep them within 12". And even if it cans it sets yourself up for a domino assault effect once assault troops hit your lines.

 

I've tried a few times with punisher pask and plasmacutioner (pre FAQ rules) with a vanquisher, lbrt and demoliser.

Given the vanquisher really needs the BS4 to be effective it has to ghost the commander. However that's counter to how it wants to be run getting too close to the front line.

 

If it was a 24" buff or just given it would be more useful.

 

Unless of course you want a full wall of 5 punishers which would be kinda funny.

[P3AKHOUR]

Ill be playing a 1000 point game tonight bringing the Emperor's Fist vs. Tyranids. 

 

Battle Group Command will be:

CCS, camo gear, MoO, Lascannon team and 2 sniper rifles

 

Rolling out along the line of departure will be:

Punisher, Pask, HB, dozer blade, heavy stubber

Demolisher Buddy, HB

Eradicator, HB
Exterminator, HB

Executioner, HB

 

Wondering if I should swap the exterminator for a second eradicator and/or the executioner for a battle tank?

Also vs. nids I was thinking some tanks should be rolling heavy flamers, any suggestions?

 

I'm aware this could get silly bringing 5 russes and not much else to such a low point game, but it should be fun.

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

So, I've been giving this a fair amount of thought, since I was planning to work up to this. It's going to depend on what you're facing. If you're up against tanks, I'd say take vanquishers, since they are your tank destroyers. I tend to build it into lists as having 2 demolishers, a battle tank and 2 vanquishers. The Vanqs are the Tank commander and wingman, because they'll always have BS4, and the Vanquisher shines with that. The Demolishers to engage the midfield threats, and the battletank to take out long range threats, while the TC and wingman take out tanks.

 

It's a good formation, and on it's own it's great, but as a core formation it's too much points. I'm more or less against the use of decurions, as they're lazy list building.

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

Just thought about using it in a list idea I had a while back. Basically you take an emperor's shield platoon, give each squad an autocannon, and the PCS gets one too. Sentinels (take 2 squadrons of 2) get multilasers and camo netting. Emperor's fist is 4 vanquishers, and 3 battletanks, all with camo netting, and the TC and wingman are in vanqs. Kabe's herald on the TC (could be pask). Take an Aegis defense line, and just park the whole thing behind it.

[Goonbandito]

My Emperor's Fist is:

 

Command Vanquisher with a LRBT buddy: Normally will be issuing Split Fire order so the LRBT can shoot at some infantry, but if the order fails at least its a high strength ordnance shot with the same range to strip a HP or something. Command Vanquisher has a lascannon, LRBT is naked and I spring for Camo Netting when I have points.

 

Exterminator: Hangs near the Tank Commander for that sweet sweet BS4 action. Has a Lascannon and whichever I'm feeling like that day of Multi-melta or Plasma Cannon sponsons. Good all round tank, especially against light-medium vehicles and also decent'ish against MCs.

 

Eradicators: I take two of these with Heavy Bolter's all round. Its a good all-round anti-infantry tank, which isn't too hampered if it can't stay in the BS4 bubble. The Eradicator Nova Cannon absolutely murders Xenos armies (which typically only have 4+ saves and won't get cover either) or other Guard and even against MEQ its still wounding them on 2s.

[zero88]

Great replies so far, I've got some new ideas to process. I'm curious how the Armored Company fared against Tyranids.. although I thought Pask couldn't be taken in the base formation and had to be taken in the high command slot? (Which IIRC means no 'venerable' protection from the Techpriest :( ..)

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

I see nothing in the rules that says you can't. In the Battlegroup Command formation however it does say that Pask may be taken in place of it's tank commander (if you chose the tank commmander).

 

Pask is an upgrade for a tank commander. Unless GW has clarified that in an FAQ somewhere...

[duz_]

Yup hit the nail on the head Ulrik. That's exactly what GW did with the draft FAQ they said no...

 

Now hopefully they will clarify that they meant only in regards to the CBG and not if the formation is taken on its lonesome.

 

So far most of my opponents haven't been too concerned about me running him as an upgrade. Nor have they kicked up a fuss about PE not working on get hots rolls.

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

I don't know how much of that draft FAQ is going to make it into an official FAQ, since it's causing so much confusion. If I can't download a copy of it, I ain't usin' it, and I ain't gonna sort through a whole bunch of pictures to find the info I want. 'Til they make it accessible and concise, I'm not going to use it.

 

Besides, didn't they release that almost a year ago, and it's still not official?

 

Anyway, back on topic, The Emperor's fist is a nice formation, and it's got some cool gimmicks, but I'll stick to my CAD. The CBG and it's formations are stupidly built. The thing that stops me from running any of the CBG formations either in the CBG or on their own, is cost. I'd rather just take IA1.2 and play a CAD, that is at least fun to play at 1850-2000 points.

 

I don't want to sound like I'm complaining, or trying to derail the thread, but the Emperor's fist has some glaring issues. At 1850-2000 points, it is a huge points sink. It also leaves very little room for auxiliary things, like aircraft or sentinels or whatever else you enjoy taking. I like playing a combined arms approach and fielding 5 tanks at anything under 2500, to me, just doesn't seem fun.

 

I also just don't like formations as much as I used to. They were cool back when Champions of Fenris Came out and they added something fun and fluffy to the army, but now they're just tired and worn out. That and decurions just stink of lazy list building to me. You don't have to find any synergy yourself, it's pre-packaged.

[Inso]

I'd take 5 standard Russ tanks with HB sponsons.

 

If points were a problem, Id go without the sponsons.

 

The ubiquitous battle-cannon is a signature weapon for the Astra Militarum and it seems fitting that they would be the most likely tanks to be on any battlefield.

[Goonbandito]

I don't know how much of that draft FAQ is going to make it into an official FAQ, since it's causing so much confusion. If I can't download a copy of it, I ain't usin' it, and I ain't gonna sort through a whole bunch of pictures to find the info I want. 'Til they make it accessible and concise, I'm not going to use it.

 

Besides, didn't they release that almost a year ago, and it's still not official?

 

Anyway, back on topic, The Emperor's fist is a nice formation, and it's got some cool gimmicks, but I'll stick to my CAD. The CBG and it's formations are stupidly built. The thing that stops me from running any of the CBG formations either in the CBG or on their own, is cost. I'd rather just take IA1.2 and play a CAD, that is at least fun to play at 1850-2000 points.

 

I don't want to sound like I'm complaining, or trying to derail the thread, but the Emperor's fist has some glaring issues. At 1850-2000 points, it is a huge points sink. It also leaves very little room for auxiliary things, like aircraft or sentinels or whatever else you enjoy taking. I like playing a combined arms approach and fielding 5 tanks at anything under 2500, to me, just doesn't seem fun.

 

I also just don't like formations as much as I used to. They were cool back when Champions of Fenris Came out and they added something fun and fluffy to the army, but now they're just tired and worn out. That and decurions just stink of lazy list building to me. You don't have to find any synergy yourself, it's pre-packaged.

The Cadian Battle Group isn't actually that bad if you are going Tank Focused. My Armoured Fist comes out to about roughly 850points, which still leaves alot of room for other stuff. Regular Infantry Platoon's are an Auxiliary Choice for the Cadian Battle Group, so taking a CCS as the required Command Choice, the Armoured Fist as the Core and the Infantry Platoon as an Auxiliary still gives you stuff to play with (could easily fit an Emperor's Wrath Artillery Battery in there for example). That's 5 Russes, 2 Wyverns, 2 Hydras, a Manticore, two CCS with Meltas in Chimeras as 'pseudo Vets' and an Infantry Platoon with a few upgrades squeezed into 1850 points.

 

The key I find is in taking the cheap stuff. Eradicators and Exterminators are the two cheapest Russ variants, yet their performance often matches their pricier counterparts (for example the only time a naked LRBT will really outshine an equally costed Eradictor with Heavy Bolter Sponsons is when shooting at MEQ that have no cover save. Almost every other scenario the Eradictor will equal or exceed the Battle Tank). The lure to go with Basilisks in an Emperor's Wrath is strong, since that tasty Ignores Cover order, but Wyverns are half the price and will still be very effective. The Hydras are there for AA, and when issued the Ignores Cover order are not actually too bad at all, but you could drop them for more Wyverns if you want and save a few points.

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

The Cadian Battle Group isn't actually that bad if you are going Tank Focused. My Armoured Fist comes out to about roughly 850points, which still leaves alot of room for other stuff. Regular Infantry Platoon's are an Auxiliary Choice for the Cadian Battle Group, so taking a CCS as the required Command Choice, the Armoured Fist as the Core and the Infantry Platoon as an Auxiliary still gives you stuff to play with (could easily fit an Emperor's Wrath Artillery Battery in there for example). That's 5 Russes, 2 Wyverns, 2 Hydras, a Manticore, two CCS with Meltas in Chimeras as 'pseudo Vets' and an Infantry Platoon with a few upgrades squeezed into 1850 points.

I'm not saying it can't be done, but my issue with the whole thing, is the way it shoehorns you into certain play styles at those lower point limits. The Emperor's shield company is unwieldy to play, it being 173 models and 1005 points minimum, leaving the Emperor's Fist the only really viable core choice at ~850 points minimum. Sure there's other stuff you can take, but if you want vets, they have to be mechanized, and if you want sentinels, you either take a 55 man platoon as a tax, or you must take 6 sentinels total. My point is not that you can't do it, but that there are a very limited number of ways to do it, and that means very little variation.

 

The CAD is the only way to play a force that's truly yours. The Formations from the CBG are pretty good, and taken as additions they're great. The CBG cajoles you into playing a horde, or a tank list. Not everyone want's to play that. Limited low points builds and the codex's inherent lack of character, make for a very boring force to play.

 

 

The key I find is in taking the cheap stuff. Eradicators and Exterminators are the two cheapest Russ variants, yet their performance often matches their pricier counterparts (for example the only time a naked LRBT will really outshine an equally costed Eradictor with Heavy Bolter Sponsons is when shooting at MEQ that have no cover save. Almost every other scenario the Eradictor will equal or exceed the Battle Tank). The lure to go with Basilisks in an Emperor's Wrath is strong, since that tasty Ignores Cover order, but Wyverns are half the price and will still be very effective. The Hydras are there for AA, and when issued the Ignores Cover order are not actually too bad at all, but you could drop them for more Wyverns if you want and save a few points.

This whole paragraph more or less illustrates my issues with the formations. Instead of taking the things you want, you have to justify the things you take. The entire CBG, most of the decurion style detachments in fact, was built with very large games in mind. The CBG shines over 2500 points.

 

Some of the Formations have synergy with each other, like the MT platoon and the Aerial Company, or the infantry and artillery companies.

 

I'm just a fan of the tried and true CAD, especially because only the Emperor's blade gets obsec, which is absolutely pants-on-head retarded. I see no real incentive to use the CBG under 2500 points.

 

The Emperor's fist fielded on its own is a great thing, and a really good formation.

 

Despite my criticisms of the CBG, the formations do provide a handy framework for incremental expansion, and incentives to buy certain models...

[HenricusTyranicus]

I don't know how much of that draft FAQ is going to make it into an official FAQ, since it's causing so much confusion. If I can't download a copy of it, I ain't usin' it, and I ain't gonna sort through a whole bunch of pictures to find the info I want. 'Til they make it accessible and concise, I'm not going to use it.

 

Besides, didn't they release that almost a year ago, and it's still not official?

 

 

 

Not really a year ago. They're still doing a codex every Wednesday. I'm sure that once they finish up in a few weeks they'll make it a downloadable thing. In the meantime, I sympathize. 

[Emicus]

They're done with previews now, Chaos Daemons was the last Codex :)

​Also if you don't playtest the BETA because 'it's kinda inconvenient' or 'the rules are dumb' there's less feedback to GW to help the direction of the game in the future... So if you want to be part of the process of making things the way you like 'em, you've got the option to put in some work and make it happen :)

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

They're done with previews now, Chaos Daemons was the last Codex

​Also if you don't playtest the BETA because 'it's kinda inconvenient' or 'the rules are dumb' there's less feedback to GW to help the direction of the game in the future... So if you want to be part of the process of making things the way you like 'em, you've got the option to put in some work and make it happen

I get that. I haven't had the opportunity to use them. I have just recently gone through and downloaded the images into a file, and sorted them by faction, so hopefully it'll be a bit easier to access. I hope to go through the ones I care about later tonight after work.