Index Astartes - War Spears

[Miyu]

Hey everyone!

Welcome to my WIP thread where I will be forming my DIY Space Marine Chapter. First off the bat, the idea to create this chapter is for me a chance to make some fluff and an actual army where my models can be used on the gaming field and, even more importantly, be brought to life through written fiction by my hand.
I have made several special models for my space marines, simply because I love to convert and make them come alive. And though I know that it is somewhat of a touchy subject, I have made some of my Astartes female ones. My intention is not to step on peoples toes.

 

Anyway, I have rewritten most of the story and origins of the Chapter, because for startes, I dont want it to be a female Chapter, but a true space marine chapter. The Inclusion of the females comes later on, as does the reason and how it came to be. 

For now, the main theme is a semi creek culture that shines through the Chapter.

 

Anyways, this is WIP, so feel free to comment or suggest, but keep an open mind and be positive. I appreciate all of it.
 
 
Accessing data repository ADM4001881/DX3; Adeptus Astartes, inquiry 23rd Founding…
Enter sub inquiry:…Adeptus Astartes Chapter War Spears
Accessing datarecords.../Access level required. Input credentials..xxxxxxxxxxxxxx/access granted.

Datarecord AAXXIII.founding/subfile VC001.
Author: Kungsgaard Adept Majoris, 443.M37.
Rights Granted: Inquistorial Seal: Maximillian Vex, Inquisitor Lord Grade.

Inloading datarecord…

Chapter Name: War Spear Chapter

Origins:

It was the time of the 37th milenia. The Imperium of man had been beset by several appaling tradegies leading to the death and corruption of numerous Chapters of the noble Astartes. A vote was cast to begin a new founding, one that would see the might of the Astartes risen once again. New Chapters were needed so that they may defend the Imperium and cast out the many threats that gnaws at every corner and turn.

One such chapter to be formed was the War Spears of ancient Ainia. Made and bred for bringing war to the many enemies of mankind, the Astartes would be a perpertual crusading Chapter that would reinforce the Imperial effort on the Eastern fringe in the Ultima Segmentum.

Homeworld:

Ainia Tertius is a large planet, feudal in nature and covered by vast fields og green hills, plains, dotted with thick forests and peaked by large ranges of snowcapped mountains that soars high above the clouds. The three main continents are devided by dark deep oceans which often are the birthplace of raveging typhoons.

It would be a beautiful place, were it not for the multitude of ferocious creatures that inhabit the planet and which constantly threatens the settlements and cities of humans that dots the landscapes.

The people live beneath an open sky in feudal kingdoms each lead by Lords that claim their titles through bravery and mettle. Only one place remains remote from these feudal kingdoms and this is sprawling city of Hippotes. Hippotes is infact a densely populated city where technology is found and lead by the Imperial Governor, also titled the High King. The city itself stands remote from the the intercine war of the feudal states, yet each feudal lord swears his loyalty to the Highking.

The God Emperor is deitified by the Sun and it is to him that all pray. Every man and woman are expected to pay homage and show this by their mettle as warriors. Honor and to show their prowess to their Lords and the Sungod, is what drives and motivates the hard people of Ainia and because of this, there is no room for the weak.
They are cast out from early childhood or freely given to the beasts of Ainia as offerings to the Dark One.

Death is natural and death always come through violence. Either in war, in training or by the teeth of the many monstrosities that make Ainia their home.

It is from this hardy people that the stock of the War Spears was chosen and for the most part, still are.

Geneseed: The Iron Snakes, 2nd founding Chapter.

The Geneseed used to create the Warspears of Ainia hails from the Chapter of the Iron Snakes. It was believed that the Iron Snakes mentality and therefore the imprint on the Geneseed, would mesh well with the people of Ainia.
In this, their speculation would be true, yet for reasons that has not yet been truly revealed.

Beliefs:
The people of Ainia believe in the God-Emperor, though not by that name. Instead the all powerful Sun that gleams above the pearl of Ainia is, to its people, the physical manifisation of the God-Emperor. The Sun is life and everything noble, honorfull and worthwhile. In contrast they believe that the Sun has its nemesis, which is the shadows of life. The darkness that coils within the deep forest or that turns the lushfull waters of the oceans into dark pits of fury during the many Typhoons.
Some even believe that the true nemesis of the sun is not actually the shadows, but is a being of death that resides in the core of Ainia and the anger it feels of its imprisonment is shown through the ferocious and dark beasts that pray upon Ainia and the vile typhoons that turns the oceans into writhing ropes of death.

Only honor and valiant hearts can overcome this darkness, and to the Ainianites there is no more corporal a manifestation of honor and the Sun, then then Sky warriors, descending upon Ainia to chose amongst them, the most courageous and noble.

Once these few warriors become initiates of the Warspears, they learn about the Emperor and the Imperium of man and though they learn that the Emperor is not a God, but instead the most magnificent of men, many still hold true to the beliefs of their time before their initation. It is widely believed amongst the Warspears that the Sun embodies the Emperor and the darkness is the shade of the Archheretic that nearly destroyed the Imperium and mankind those many milenia ago.


Combat doctrine:

Largely due to patronage and geneseed, as well as the warlike personality of their homeworld, the War Spears favor shortranged firefights and the thrill of melee.

They adhere to the teachings of the Codex Astartes as most other Chapters, insuring that they are well capable for the many different theatres of war that Astartes are expected to overcome. Thus the warriors of the Chapter will first be taught the lessons of bringing death from afar, then death in melee before joining one of the many battlesquads of the Chapter, which through their tactical acumen and gear, can overcome most challenges.

It is no surprise though, that most favor the thrill of close combat, having the direct result that there is always an overabundance of assault classed Astartes in the ranks of the War Spears.

Their behavior upon the field of battle changes as the waves that make up the oceans across all of the Imperium, yet one thing always remain the same. The Chapter favors being up front with their enemy, where their bolters and spear and shield will bring the Emperor’s wrath to.

Organisation:
The War Spears are a non-Codex Chapter, bearing close resembles to the teacings of Guilliman, yet showing deviancies as well.

They have five Battle Hosts or companies that make up the bulk of their Chapter, which roughly constitutes a battle company from other Chapters. Each Host also maintains their own Notables, which is to say their veteran squads and a section of initiates formed into scout squads.
Each Host is equipped with their own fleet and is responsible for maintaining and equipping their battlebrothers and in this regard, each Host acts as an independent Chapter in itself.

Battle loses are replenished accepting worthy initiates into the battlesquads as necessary and by gaining new recruits during their visits to the Chapter Monestary on Ainia.

The Chapter Monestary on Ainia is the headquarters of the Chapter and within its gilded halls sits the Chapter Master and a section of veterans from each Battle Host whom find and train new initiates.

The Chaplaincy, as well as the Apothecarium and the Seer Council all has their seat in the Monestary as well and its members are applied to each Battle Hosts as is needed.

Though many Battle Hosts regularly visits Ainia after a Crusade, they are only decreed to gather at the Monestary once every one fiftieth year to partake in the celebration of the Sun and the Emperor. If a Battle Host or their represenatitive does not return at this celebration, it is seen as a dire portent.

Motto:
Post Tenebras Lux – after darknes, light.

The Chapter firmly believes that the Imperium will enter a golden age again, and this is the light that followes the present darkness.

 

Notable Campaigns (Soon to come)

Notable Characters (Soon to come)

Subfiles:

Female and male Astartes of the Chapter (Soon to come).


Pictures and Color scheme (Soon to come).

 

[Teetengee]

You may want to avoid the "unknown geneseed" motif, as you have enough things to make them special without it. Unless, of course, the idea is that they aren't actually marines at all, but just a whole bunch of warriors given the Kor Phaerun treatment. At which point, not only does female marines become a complete non-issue, but the whole chapter takes on a different character.

[Olis]

Predecessor: …<inload negated;datafile corrupted>…

..<Transcript alteration authored by Adept junioris Tollin Acktoran, Inquisition Analyticae/>

I think it would be interesting to know the gene-seed of the Chapter - if only to see how they differ from their ancestors.

 

Their first assignment was to assist the 229th Army Group in retaking the Armantor system far on the galactic east of the Imperium. Amongst the notable Chapters that took part in the purge were a company of the Minotaurs.

 

The Void Claws fought with honor and distinguished themselves throughout the campaign, yet their loyalties were brought into doubt when the Minotaurs noted that several of the Void Claw’s warriors were a good deal shorter than the rest and the Minotaurs. Though height in Astartes were common, these warriors were shorter than the shortest that had yet been identified. As if this was not enough cause for distrust, it only grew when the Minotaurs noticed that command in the Void Claws seemed to rely on their great number of Librarians amongst them. In several battles, the Captains seemed lower in rank than the Librarians and took command from them.

 

The distrust was only made more profound when one of their librarians took off its helmet, revealing that it was indeed female instead of male. The Chaplain of the Minotaurs immediately accused the Void Claws of Heresy of the most basest of kinds and open warfare was only avoided due to the unfortunate attack of the Archenemy.

 

Yet worse was to happen. The words of the Chaplain reached his Chapter command and from then to the seat of several Lords of the Inquisition. Taking it upon themselves, the Minotaurs started to affect the command of the 229th Armygroup in a way that the Void Claws found themselves often without much needed support or caught directly in the firezone of friendly barrage.

The number of fatalities and injured spired ever higher and higher until at last, the Minotaurs themselves moved against them, seeking out to destroy the Chapter for their heresy.

 

This particular part I must point out for the name-dropping of the Minotaurs. This is something I would advocate against in an IA if only because it is drawing attention away from the DIY Chapter is and can be a crutch in lieu of exploring the DIY Chapter itself. Also, to be blunt, I find it lazy IA writing - not that I am aiming to take a shot at you at all. That would be unfair and unhelpful. This entire incident can be boiled down, condensed to maybe one paragraph (or two) and entirely omit the Minotaurs. The focus should be on the Void Claws and how they behave, not on what the Minotaurs do. 

[Miyu]

Noted Olis, you make a good case :): I'll rephrase it and strike the Minotaurs from the background story.

The geneseed will be made known. Was thinking of making a "the dark section" which would tell all the small things that is veiled for the Imperium. As to what Maximillian Vex was up two and such things.
but thinking about it, perhaps that will just cloud it up alot. I'll do some thinking and rewrite some of the above.

Thanks for the feedback. I greatly appreciate it!

[Olis]

Do you have a specific gene-seed lineage in mind?

[Legatus]

Maybe I should just stay out of this and let you have your fun. I tend to be very critical of the entire "female space marines" thing (or often just diy lore in general). But on the other hand perhaps I can point out some stumbling blocks.

 

Belief: Astartes of the Void Claws Chapter was from the beginning taught that the God-Emperor was the diety of mankind and that loyal subjects considered Him as a God and Holy Terra as the mightiest Cathedral and sign of his Eternal power. However, it was later learned the Chaplaincy of the Void Claws was made aware of certain sources of knowledge that indicated that our God-Emperor was more a father figure than an actual God.

The sources have as of yet been unverified and an Ecclisiarch mandate has been pushed forward to turn the Void Claws back to true worship of our eternal God-Emperor.

 

It is a long standing part of the lore that Space Marines Chapters generally do not worship the Emperor as a god, but as the greatest leader of mankind and as their creator. That has been an issue of conflict between the Ecclesiarchy and the Adeptus Astartes on some occasions, even with bloodshed, but they have officially declared a truce. The Space Marine Chaplains are awarded their Rosarius from the Ecclesiarchy, but otherwise Space Marines and the Ministorum stay out of each other's business. That also means that the Ecclesiarchy has no say over how the Space Marines or even their charges conduct their rituals.

 

But since you are also a Sisters of Battle fan perhaps you were already aware of that. Sorry if that is the case. It is still possible that certain Space Marines Chapters do worship the Emperor as a god, so your lore isn't really neccessarily wrong. I just wanted to point out that it is not usually the case.

 

I can provide the quote from the 2nd Edition Codex Sisters of Battle if you want, but I wasn't sure if you didn't know this already. It is not a frequently published issue, so it is easy to miss.

 

 

The Void Claws fought with honor and distinguished themselves throughout the campaign, yet their loyalties were brought into doubt when the Minotaurs noted that several of the Void Claw’s warriors were a good deal shorter than the rest and the Minotaurs. Though height in Astartes were common, these warriors were shorter than the shortest that had yet been identified. As if this was not enough cause for distrust, it only grew when the Minotaurs noticed that command in the Void Claws seemed to rely on their great number of Librarians amongst them. In several battles, the Captains seemed lower in rank than the Librarians and took command from them.

The distrust was only made more profound when one of their librarians took off its helmet, revealing that it was indeed female instead of male. The Chaplain of the Minotaurs immediately accused the Void Claws of Heresy of the most basest of kinds and open warfare was only avoided due to the unfortunate attack of the Archenemy.

 

Two minor points here. They might not be a problem at all, depending on how you want to write it.

 

First, even if your female Marines didn't undergo heavy hormone therapy to somehow be made compatible with the gene-seed, the implantation of the organs (especially the ones enhancing muscular growth and bone strength) would still most likely result in heavy built individuals not too different from a male Marine. But on the other hand, maybe your Chapter uses some different method to enhance their female warriors, one that wouldn't result in heavily masculinized muscle women. Then this would obviously not be an issue. Plus, in WH40K sometimes things just have to be cool, not plausible.

 

Second, the use of female Marines is not strictly forbidden. It is just simply not viable (or possible). So it shouldn't really be such an offense. On the other hand, any deviation from the norm could be interpreted as sacrilegious by some strict Chapters. Or the use of unknown methods could arouse suspicion. So, again, maybe not stricly "wrong" how you described the reaction. It just is not an official restriction. (Though I could imagine the Codex Astartes prescribing that "Initiates must be taken from male candidates" for the simple reason that they were found to be the only ones reasonably compatible with the gene-seed, and so simply forgoing the unviable option.)

 

The Minotaurs were certainly acting "in character".

[Miyu]

Do you have a specific gene-seed lineage in mind?

Yes - First off I was thinking Iron Warriors, because someone mentioned to me that lore says they have some of the most stable geneseeds of them all, before they turned traitors. But I think they need a loyalist geneseed, so was thinking either Imperial Fists or Ultramarines

 

Legatus -

 

There is no point for you to stay out. I value your insight, perhaps especially because of your criticallity (is that a word?).

In regards to your views. I do know most chapters revere the Emperor and not as a God, but as the greatest individual of all of mankind. This chapter is following that line of thought. What I meant to convey in my story, was that at initiation, the Ecclisiarchy and the Inquisitor wanted them to revere Him as a God instead. This has to do with the general idea that it may help them stay "pure".

But I will reconsider phrasing it in my story :D Thanks!

 

[Olis]

 

Do you have a specific gene-seed lineage in mind?

Yes - First off I was thinking Iron Warriors, because someone mentioned to me that lore says they have some of the most stable geneseeds of them all, before they turned traitors. But I think they need a loyalist geneseed, so was thinking either Imperial Fists or Ultramarines

 

Iron Warriors gene-seed has it's own connotations and effects in regard to an IA (like, for example, a potential need to change the founding depending on the overall article). The safest route would be to choose either the Fists or the Ultras, being the principle contributors to following Foundings. Whichever you choose, either way, will to some degree affect how and what your Chapter thinks. 

[Machine God]

In the insular Imperium of Man the anything different is reviled, so a Space Marine that is identified as a female instead of a male would be hated.

 

Abhor the Mutant!

 

Be Pure, Be Vigilant, Behave!

[Miyu]

Updated the OP. I have heavily editted the first story, finding it half thought through and ill displayed. I hope the new origins and descriptions paint a better picture, which will be broaden out later on as to how and why they suddenly started initiating females into the chapter.

Brother Peletes, 2nd Squad of the Azure Battle Host.

[Legatus]

Geneseed: The Iron Snakes, 2nd founding Chapter.

 

From what I can see the origins of the Iron Snakes Chapter are in question. They are reportedly a Chapter of the 2nd Founding, and reportedly an Ultramarines successor Chapter, but there is no clear evidence for either. Under such circumstances they would probably not have any successors themselves. If they were a known Primogenitor their 2nd Founding origins would be indesputable, but it isn't.

[Miyu]

Darn. They fit so well with the greek theme.

[Donkey Kong]

They can still be Iron Snakes successors. The Astral Claws have an unknown founding chapter but "three sons" or successors, the only named one being the Tiger Claws. See Lexicanum.

[Legatus]

Eh, that bit of lore from Forgeworld is a bit wonky. In the Codex lore, only First and Second Founding Chapters are specifically described as their genes being isolated and forming distinct genetic lines. That in itself doesn't mean that this was not then also done for every other subsequently created Chapter of a later founding, but it is also described that more than half of all currently existing Chapters can trace their lineage back to the Ultramarines, "either directly or indirectly through one of the Second Founding Chapters". That does make it sound like every Chapter that is created is a successor either to a First or Second Founding Chapter.

[Miyu]

Hmmm, but if one believed the Iron Snakes to hail from the Ultra Marines, then nothing should prevent them from using their geneseed no? Much like the Marines Errant was made from the Eagle warriors, whom decended from the UM.  That was also part of the Sentinal Founding I think.

[Legatus]

The Eagle Warriors are a confirmed Second Founding Chapter from the Ultramarines, so by strict 40K lore reading their genetic line is indeed used to create further successor Chapters.

 

If the Iron Snakes are a Second Founding Chapter, then their genetic line would be used to create further Chapters as well. But it is in question whether they truly are a Second Founding Chapter.

 

So, if the Iron Snakes had an officially listed successor themselves (and provided only First and Second Founding Chapters are used to create successors) then that would prove that they in fact are a Second Founding Chapter, and it would not be in dispute.

 

But if any Chapter can have a successor, as suggested by that Forgeworld material, then the Iron Snakes could have one as well.

 

I suppose you can describe your Chapter as an Iron Snakes successor and just refer to the Forgeworld material as backup (Imperial Armour Volume 9, Astral Claws description). But it is possible that this was an oversight and a small mistake in FW lore, since the Codex lore gave a different impression.

[Miyu]

Your points are very valid :). Would you suggest instead to make them just a normal Ultra marine descendent that has over the time changed into their non codex formation?

[Legatus]

Making a DIY Chapter Ultramarines successors is allways a safe bet. And they don't have to be strictly Codex adherent either.  Chapter founded thousands of years after the Heresy would have only very little connection to the original Legion. All newly created Chapters are trained in the Codex doctrines, no matter which gene-seed they are from, and any newly created Chapter could deviate from the strict doctrines, even if the Chapter was created from Ultramarines gene-seed.

 

You could also just leave the exact origin of your gene-seed a mystery. The Iron Snakes themselves don't have a definitive founding history. Neither do the Silver Skulls. You could simply say that they are reported to be an Ultramarines successor, but that there are no records.

[Miyu]

Sneaky :) I think I will head that way. Thanks so much for the feedback! It helps alot.

[Doctor Perils]

I've refrained from making any comments about your work for the moment, because I'm generally a bit apprehensive about chapters with female marines. You do however mention it right off the bat, so that's a good thing ;)

 

Anyway, for the moment, things seem pretty good :) I'll try and give my feedback as I go along while reading. I'll probably be making suggestions and asking questions, always in the hope of being constructive :)

First off, I'll start with the colour scheme, because that's one of the first things I look at when entering a new DIY:

• The colour scheme is a bit surprising, but it will help the chapter stand out, and the composition is nice. I'd probably use a pink that's a tiny bit less saturated, because the Space Marine painter has a tendency to make bright colours look radioactive ^^ Have you got any ideas of a chapter symbol?
• It's good to see the origin section containing the purpose of their creation, though I'd probably restrict that a bit: what worlds are they trying to take back in the name of the Imperium, what foes are they facing (rebels, xenos, chaos etc.) ?
• If I were you, I'd mention the specific founding number, and the founding chapter already in the origins section. You might also wish to add an example of one of their first battles/campaigns?
• You mention that they are reinforcing Imperial Efforts? What forces are they specifically helping? Other Space Marine chapters? Specific Imperial Guard Regiments? Adeptus Mechanicus forces? - what are the relations with these other forces? You might be tempted to either say they are outright allied, or to say that they don't get along well for x or y reason, but try to make it a bit more mirky - there is no black or white in 40k ;)
• As the chapter is non-codex adherent, you need to make that clear directly in the Origins section, and you also need to give a good reason for them not following the codex. Try and think of an example where this special organisation was beneficial, but also of one where it was negative for them - you don't necessarily need to write much about those examples, if at all, but it can be a good thought exercise to see how they deal with different threats :)
• Your homeworld section goes into a good amount of detail on the beliefs and rituals of its inhabitants, but glosses over the relationship your chapter has with it. Does your chapter rules as overlords of the petty feudal kings? Do they maintain their distance, appearing only as demi-gods to the worthy, like the Space Wolves on Fenris? If you don't want to make a long section about the recruitment practices of the chapter, a small explanation can still be included in the homeworld section.
• Does your chapter maintain a fortress-monastery on Ainia? If so, how is it organised, what with the non-codex organisation and the fact that many of the Hosts are on Crusade much of the time?
• From the gene-seed section, it sounds like the High Lords of Terra created the chapter exactly as it is now: I'd recommend against that approach, as a chapter will feel more realistic if it seems to have grown to its current form naturally. Think of it as the difference between character-driven and plot-driven - a character-driven story will seem realistic, because the story comes from the way the characters make their decisions, based on their personalities; on the contrary, plot-driven makes characters make decisions to make the plot go forwards, despite these decisions not being in-character.
• Another reason for the chapter to evolve into its current form, independent of the wishes of the HLoT, is that your chapter is codex-divergent: if they could choose one way or the other, I'm pretty sure the HLoT would make all chapters codex adherent, as they have more trouble with non-adherent chapters (Space Wolves, Black Templars etc.)
• The beliefs section currently recapitulates elements of the Ainites' beliefs, rather than the chapter's: I'd reorganise it to focus principally on the chapter's own beliefs
• The preference of close-combat or ranged-combat doesn't seem to be that linked to Ultramarine geneseed: generally, Ultramarine successors have a preference of balanced fighting.
• I'd make a bit more of a mention of the spear-and-shield tactics of the chapter (you only mention it off-hand once)
• How are the techmarines organised? Give more explanations about the seer council.
• How many Astartes are there in each Host, and in the Fortress-monastery? How many of each specialty in each Host? are the Hosts organised in equal fashion, have they got different traditional organisations, or do they follow the whim of their current commander?
• How are officers promoted?
• What do the chaplains teach? The Emperor as a powerful man and father to Space Marines? as a god? as the Sun-god? how does that mesh with the chapter beliefs, and how does it mesh with other chapters?

Okay, I think that's it for now :)

 

For a chapter's culture, you shouldn't think that it comes from their founding chapter's culture, it generally forms on its own, taking a lot of elements from their homeworld or recruits. I think it is however more likely for the combat doctrine to come from the founder. :)

 

Eh, that bit of lore from Forgeworld is a bit wonky. In the Codex lore, only First and Second Founding Chapters are specifically described as their genes being isolated and forming distinct genetic lines. That in itself doesn't mean that this was not then also done for every other subsequently created Chapter of a later founding, but it is also described that more than half of all currently existing Chapters can trace their lineage back to the Ultramarines, "either directly or indirectly through one of the Second Founding Chapters". That does make it sound like every Chapter that is created is a successor either to a First or Second Founding Chapter.

Have you got a direct reference? I'd never heard that only First and Second Founding chapters were ever used to create new foundings. Also, I thought the percentage of Ultra gene-seed was even higher, so I guess that shows how much I know ^^

[Legatus]

Have you got a direct reference? I'd never heard that only First and Second Founding chapters were ever used to create new foundings. Also, I thought the percentage of Ultra gene-seed was even higher, so I guess that shows how much I know ^^

 

I think some sources attribute as much as two thirds of all currently existing Chapters to Ultramarines gene-seed, but then that is covered by "more than half".

 

Conveniently, another member had asked me via pm about exactly this issue earlier this day, so I can just quote myself:

 

I am basing that on a few descriptions from the 2nd Edition Codex Ultramarines, but the same descriptions are repeated in the 5th Edition Codex Space Marines as well, so I will cite those for more up to date sources.

 

"Each of the Second Founding Chapters was derived directly from an original First Founding Chapter and initially shared the same gene-seed. Subsequently the new Chapter's gene-seed was isolated, forming a new genetic line."

- 5th Edition Codex Space Marines, p. 8

 

So that means there could be Ultramarines successors, but also Novamarines successors, Eagle Warriors successors, Nemesis Chapter successors, etc. since their gene-seed is treated as "new genetic lines". That only describes it being the case for those Second Founding Chapters, but then it is given in the description of how the Legions were divided, so maybe that is simply because of the limited context. Maybe the same was done for the following Founding Chapters as well and it just isn't described here.

However, there is also this bit:

 

"it is impossible to say for certain how many Chapters have been created. All that is known is that there are approximately a thousand Chapters in existence today, scattered throughout the galaxy. Of these, more than half are descended from the Ultramarines, either directly or indirectly through one of the Primogenitor Chapters."

- 5th Edition Codex Space Marines, p. 9

 

That does make it sound as if every Chapter that has since been created in later foundings with gene-seed that was originally from the Ultramarines Legion was a successor either from the Ultramarines Chapter or from one of the Second Founding Chapters (the Primogenitors).

 

(Although I suppose that is technically still true if the gene-seed from all later founded Chapters are also separated and treated as distinct genetic lines.)

 

Add to this that as far as I am aware any later founding Chapter mentioned in any Codex ever only is described as a successor from one of the Original Chapters. I.e. the Codex Space Marines will list successors of the Ultramarines, the Imperial Fists, the Raven Guard, etc. The Codex Blood Angels will list Blood Angels Successors, the Codex Dark Angels lists Dark Angels successors. No Codex ever listed a successor from even a Second Founding Chapter, like being a successor from the Eagle Warriors or the Angels of Absolution, etc, even though the Space Marine Codices (2nd Ultramarines and 5th specifically) stated that those did potentiallyhave successors. As far as I am aware the Forgeworld book is the first one to every claim that any Chapter of any founding can have successors themselves.

 

That last bit is especially important. As far as I am aware (but I haven't gone through all the Codices just now to verify) every successor Chapter mentioned in any Space Marines Codex for the past twenty years is attributed directly to one of the original Chapters (Legions). There was no instance I can recollect where a Chapter is presented as the successor from any later founding Chapter. For a long time I simply assumed that thus every successor is created from one of the original nine (or maybe seven if we exclude Space Wolves and Salamanders) gene-seeds. I remember reading up on it a few years ago, probably when those Forgeworld Badab War volumes were released, and being surprised that the 2nd Edition Codex Ultramarines indeed discusses the possibility of Second Founding Chapters possibly having their own successors.

 

Curiously enough, these are the Chapters featured in the two Badab War books whose genetic heritage is not unknown (together with founding and parent gene-seed):

 

- Fire Hawks - 21st - (Ultramarines?)

 

- Marines Errant - 23rd - Ultramarines (Eagle Warriors)

 

- Fire Angels - 25th - Ultramarines

 

- Raptors - 2nd - Raven Guard

 

- Lamenters - 21st - Blood Angels

 

- Novamarines - 2nd - Ultramarines

 

- Howling Griffons - (Unknown) - Ultramarines

 

- Mantis Warriors - (8th?) - White Scars (Marauders)

 

- Executioners - (3rd?) - Imperial Fists

 

- Sons of Medusa - (in M37) - Iron Hands

 

- Charcharodons - (Unkown) - (Raven Guard?)

 

In these volumes, where Forgeworld seemingly introduces to us the notion that any Chapter can have successors, what are the odds that all of these Chapters are decended from one of the First Founding Chapters, with two being attributed to Second Founding Chapters (the first at that to my knowledge)?

 

Well, for the Fire Angels, who were created in M40, the odds were quite low. At that time there were probably already 500 Chapters of Ultramarine variety around, so their chance to specifically be an Ultramarines successor would have been about 0.2%. (Actually, their chance would have been a little bit higher than that, since the older Chapters would probably have more accumulated gene-seed than the newer ones, so the older the Chapter, the higher the chance to be the "parent" of a new successor.)

 

So even in their own book, where they want to establish that any Chapter can have successors, they cannot quite get away from attributing the featured Chapters all to one of the original nine Founding Chapters, or at best to one of the Second Founding Primogenitors.

[Gree]

 

Geneseed: The Iron Snakes, 2nd founding Chapter.

 

From what I can see the origins of the Iron Snakes Chapter are in question. They are reportedly a Chapter of the 2nd Founding, and reportedly an Ultramarines successor Chapter, but there is no clear evidence for either. Under such circumstances they would probably not have any successors themselves. If they were a known Primogenitor their 2nd Founding origins would be indesputable, but it isn't.

 

 

 

Although we very well might see more of an expansion in the future. Saur Damocles in Know No Fear has his company wear a snake emblem similar to the Iron Snakes.

 

This is speculative, but we very well might see Abnett write something concerning Saur and the Iron Snakes in the future.

[Legatus]

We might see that. On the other hand there have been hints at the Scythes of the Emperor in the HH series, who will only be founded in the 25th Founding. If Abnett wanted the Iron Snakes to definitively be a 2nd Founding Chapter of the Ultramarines, wouldn't he have described them as such in his previous books? If he left their origin open in his previous works then maybe he wont change it now.

[Miyu]

Thanks for giving it a read and applying your thougts Lord Thørn :).

I can see there are a few places where I need or should elaborate a bit, whereas alot of the other points you make out, is in the workings :). My initial idea is to build this chapter not for the sole purpose of having female marines, but to have a Chapter that is as belivable they can be, in a fictive universe and later on describe what drove them to the sudden intake of female initiates, what impact that had and still has.

I'll get cracking :)

[Teetengee]

Toward the "which chapters can have successors" debate:

I always figured that chapters only listed the primary legion not because they got it from there, but because it is usually the only information that is relevant. It matters a lot that some chapter traces to a specific Primarch, but the exact method or steps of that tracing never seemed terribly important as far as I am concerned (in most cases).

 

I.e. a chapter founded from ultra successors would just consider themselves ultra successors, particularly since the admech seems to organize geneseed primarily by line, rather than specifically by chapter for other than testing reasons. Many chapters might not even know where their seed line came from, but it is easy enough to check which line it matches with.