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Would you play regular Terminators if....?


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#1
Master Antaeus

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I was looking at my tactical terminators sitting forlornly on my shelf and wondering where it all went wrong when I started brainstorming what would make my deadly veterans of a thousand campaigns viable again.  Here are some thoughts that I had.  I'm curious to hear your ideas for better, more viable terminators.

 

Ideally, these would be rules changes as the current tactical terminators boxed set is unlikely to see a re-cut any time soon.

 

-Re-rollable armor saves: Everyone hates losing terminators to small arms; otherwise known as the weapons they are supposed to reliably shrug off.  This would go a long way toward making that a reality.  It wouldn't make even regular terminators game-breaking, but would set them apart from other 2+ save models that appear to wear lighter armor.  If that's too powerful, an acceptable compromise would be saying the turn they deploy, they have re-rollable armor saves.

 

-Assault 4 or Storm Bolters: this is probably one of my favorites.  Currently, a minimum squad of terminators shoots about as hard as a minimum tactical squad for over twice the price.  Change the upgrade weapons to 2/5 instead of 1/5 and you have a unit that pisses bullets everywhere it looks.

 

-Run after deep strike: No one likes to lose an entire squad of terminators to a lucky Demolisher shot and asking players to waste an entire shooting phase by running before they get to light something up with their sub-standard shooting.  This is a bit of a disconnect as typically you don't see speed/maneuverability rules added to hulking models like Terminators or if you do, they are part of a formation.

 

-Warp Shunt: Just like Interceptors and Dreadknights.  Once per game.  A holdover from Dawn of War when terminators could teleport around the battlefield.

 

-Mad Minute: The old bladestorm rule; the unit can fire twice, but must spend the next turn reloading and can't shoot (can still assault, run, etc)

 

What would you like to see on viable Terminators?



#2
m0nolith

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Re-rollable armor saves.


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#3
Major_Gilbear

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Discussed recently (and fairly exhaustively) here. ;)



#4
Stercus

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Make their armour save 1+. They'd still auto fail if you roll a 1, but you get to roll against plasma and other low AP weapons.
Storm bolters still kind of suck, so how about increasing their rate of fire (say assault 3) and making them fire overwatch at half BS, rather than BS1. I remember from space hulk most of my shooting was over watching Stormbolters.
Possibly make the power fists less unwieldy due to the support of the armour systems, maybe have them operate at initiative 2 or 3 instead of at initiative 1.
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#5
Volt

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One small fix could be just adding save layers like in WHF. You get to roll your armor save and your invul save and any feel no pain the unit may have.


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#6
Quixus

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One small fix could be just adding save layers like in WHF. You get to roll your armor save and your invul save and any feel no pain the unit may have.

Regarding saves it would make a whole lot of sense to allow cover saves to work that way. If a wall and armour is between the projectile and my vital bits, it should be a lot harder to hurt me.


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#7
Miyu

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Cover saves working like that would be awesome, and would up the usage of regular power armor as well.

I will use terminators anyway, because I like how huge and imposing they are :). But either give them the 1+ save or 3+ save on 2d6. I heard this mentioned before and seems interesting.
Weaponwise, perhaps make the stormbolters salvo weapons 2/3. That would be fun and a stormbolter on a terminator would be really nice, and nicer than say on a captain in regular power armor.



#8
Volt

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One small fix could be just adding save layers like in WHF. You get to roll your armor save and your invul save and any feel no pain the unit may have.

Regarding saves it would make a whole lot of sense to allow cover saves to work that way. If a wall and armour is between the projectile and my vital bits, it should be a lot harder to hurt me.

 

Honestly all saves should be stacked anyway. And not just because I want to make that trollface when a ravenwing biker gets a 3+ save thrice before a final 6+ FNP laugh.png

 

In a lot of ways, WHFB's save system made more sense. It even allowed for 1+ saves functionally. Only problem is that from what I read it was incredibly complex and required some crunching.


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#9
Marshal_Roujakis

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yeah the layered saves from WHF was a bit too complex... and it also made the game slower, especially compared to how slow 40k is now...

 

TBH, there's not a lot in the COdex with a 2+ save, and those that do have it does shrug off a lot of small arms fire... if you fire off the same amount of Bolter Rounds to a squad of Tactical Marines in comparison to a squad of Tactical Terminators, you'd potentially get half the casualties of the Tactical Marines... so if you get 2 casualties from a squad of 5, you'd only get one casualty from a squad of Tactical Terminators... so 2+ does work on small arms fire.

 

If the issue is that Grav or Plasma hurts your Terminators, well GW did make it so so that anything with a 2+, especially including Terminators, will get demolished by it.

Let's put it in a different perspective... a Plasma gun can hurt a Wraithknight and a Riptide, two of the biggest and nastiest models in the game, it can also completely destroy a vehicle in a single shot, provided that the armor isn't as thick as the front of a Leman Russ or a Land Raider, even Dreadnoughts can get obliterated by a single shot from a Plasmagun... so technically, the chances that a Terminator can withstand a direct hit from a weaponize Plasma is very unlikely...

 

I think the issue with Terminators just once again boil down to points... they cost more than twice the cost of a Tactical Marine with far less benefit than what you'd get out of their competition which is the Sternguard or the Honour Guard (face it, you'd rather get these instead of Termies), they have very limited weapon options, very limited tactics, and worst of all, they have a lot of competition in the Elite slots.

 

In my opinion, the way to truly fix them is:

  • to lessen their points cost to 30 pts./model
  • change in general the Storm Bolter rule to be Salvo 2/3
  • or give them access to Sternguard Special Ammo
  • give them access to Power Weapons
  • give them access to combi-weapons
  • the squad can have 2 Heavy Weapons without the 10-man restrictions
  • and finally the Sergeant get access to Terminator Weapons. (the last is the dumbest thing about the squad... the Sergeant can't even change his own weapons...)

 

The points cost would be relative to the Sternguard, and would make the squad competitive against other entries in the Elite slot, they would be the equivalent of Sternguard+ (which they should be) and none of the preset rules would have to change, GW just needs to get off their lazy rears and give us refreshed kits for Terminators... seriously, the latest kits they've produced are just the old kits with extra upgrades... sometimes I think that they're not even trying... lazy gits...


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#10
Halandaar

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3+ save on 2d6. I heard this mentioned before and seems interesting.

 

This is the armour save Terminators had in 2nd Edition, but that was a system where weapons had save modifiers (like AoS' Rend system) rather than outright ignoring saves of certain levels.

 

I think we're all largely in agreement about how Terminators could be made a bit more desirable;

  • Increased small-arms resistance (Re-rollable 2+)
  • Better general shooting (Assault 4 or Salvo 2/4 Storm Bolters)
  • Higher heavy weapon availability (2 per 5 models)
  • More gear options (Power Weapons, Combi-Weapons)
  • If required after above changes, reduced points cost

A few of my own personal suggestions/wishlisting:

  • Allow Tartaros and Cataphractii armour as options to the base Terminator unit entry, with the appropriate rules benefits.
  • Allow squads to mix and match weapons as they choose in a single squad (i.e. Storm Bolter & Storm Shield, Assault Cannon & Lightning Claw)
  • Introduce more Heavy Weapon options i.e. Multi-Melta. (Could keep Plasma Cannon for DA and introduce Frag for BA Terminators, Helfrost for SW Terminators etc)

If they were going to do something like this however, it'd be absolutely crucial that it be Errata'd into every relevant Codex all at the same time.


Edited by Halandaar, 13 September 2016 - 12:59 PM.

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#11
Major_Gilbear

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So... Nobody read the previous thread then? rolleyes.gif

 

 

3+ save on 2d6. I heard this mentioned before and seems interesting.

 

This is the armour save Terminators had in 2nd Edition, but that was a system where weapons had save modifiers (like AoS' Rend system) rather than outright ignoring saves of certain levels.

 

I think we're all largely in agreement about how Terminators could be made a bit more desirable;

  • Increased small-arms resistance (Re-rollable 2+) Just giving them 2W is simpler for nearly the same/slightly better effect. For characters, Terminator Armour gives you +1W.
  • Better general shooting (Assault 4 or Salvo 2/4 Storm Bolters) This would affect all stormbolters, even those for the Imperial Guard or on Rhinos.
  • Higher heavy weapon availability (2 per 5 models) Agreed, although the heavy weapons need a bit of tweaking to make them ore desirable (otherwise you just bolt a CML to a TH&SS Termie and get the best of everything).
  • More gear options (Power Weapons, Combi-Weapons) Although I'm not adverse to this, what would Chaos get instead? Combi-bolters are even worse than SB, but at least they get unique weapon options.
  • If required after above changes, reduced points cost This reduces their elite status I think. Besides, the problem isn't that they are too expensive, it's that too much stuff in the game is too cheap.

A few of my own personal suggestions/wishlisting:

  • Allow Tartaros and Cataphractii armour as options to the base Terminator unit entry, with the appropriate rules benefits. I have no issue with this, but it would need to be both worthwhile and subtle. Otherwise exiting TDA is pretty pointless.
  • Allow squads to mix and match weapons as they choose in a single squad (i.e. Storm Bolter & Storm Shield, Assault Cannon & Lightning Claw) This could be easy to min-max, or lead to silly points prices. For example, sticking Storm Shields on everything to get a 3++, or lightning claws costing 20pts each.
  • Introduce more Heavy Weapon options i.e. Multi-Melta. (Could keep Plasma Cannon for DA and introduce Frag for BA Terminators, Helfrost for SW Terminators etc) More HW options starts to impinge on other HW-bearing models. Besides, the unique thing about the DA is that they have an  extra  HW (the PC), not that they they get a different weapon (as PC exist in all SM armies - unlike the Frag/Helfrost guns). 

If they were going to do something like this however, it'd be absolutely crucial that it be Errata'd into every relevant Codex all at the same time. Agreed!

 

 

I've added my responses to the above in green. These are just quick thoughts/reactions though, so please don't take them as anything other than that.

 

The other big issues not addressed in your list are the prevalence of Terminator-killer guns (like Plasma, Grav), the slow speed with Terminators get anywhere (Land Raiders cost a lot of points, and teleporting isn't great!), and their lack of specific use compared to other competing elite units.

 

Also, whatever is done for Terminators will need to be reflected for characters. Same for any weapon tweaks affecting all weapons of that type in the game.

 

Finally, we need to keep in mind that they were an elite unit designed to put point-pressure on the enemy in a limited environment back when games were much smaller (i.e., 100 Tac marines with no upgrades were 3000pts!).

 

The biggest change they (and 40k generally) would benefit from is moving to a D12/D20-based system. This allows similar but different values to be teased out a bit and provides more design room for new units without constantly resorting to re-rolls and special rules.


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#12
Xisor

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I'm sold on 2W, to be honest. I liked many of (Inc. My own) suggestions on the other thread, but 2W seems to be the handiest, easiest, simplest one with reason to suspect the fewest unforeseen consequences.
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#13
Major_Gilbear

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Yeah, I would favour:

 

- TDA gives a model +1W.

 

- Terminator squads have two heavy weapons per 5 models

 

- Formations for two or more 5-model squads that improve delivery and/or provide other perks.

 

- Slight revision of points for equipment*.

 

 

*For example, if most options were "free" upgrades that you can choose, but you have to pay extra points for the SS&TH and the CML options. That makes the other options much more compelling, and I feel that combined with their availability restrictions, it's actually reasonably balanced. Besides, apart from a specialised melee squad all armed with LC in a Land Raider or such, when was the last time you saw a Terminator squad without a heavy weapon?



#14
Race Bannon

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There is another thread for this topic (as pointed out and linked).

 

Don't get me too wrong, I *love* Terminators ^_^


"Fully dressed in the ancestral Terminator Armour of their Chapter they rise to a new level of battlefield supremacy, a level where monstrous tanks are but playthings of a child, and where Terminators, Daemons and gods stalk as equals." -Thunder and Lightning, White Dwarf 116 (UK)
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Index Astartes: Red Shoulders


#15
Marshal_Roujakis

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There is another thread for this topic (as pointed out and linked).

 

Don't get me too wrong, I *love* Terminators happy.png

 

Can they be merged?

 

And don't get me wrong on the Storm Bolters... I want GW to change it for everyone, Sisters, Grey Knights, IG and all Astartes Chapters. Salvo 2/3 would be awesome on them...

especially if you've played W40k: Space Marine, the Storm Bolter there had a spectacular rate of fire... the Storm Bolter on the tabletop is just badly represented, there's not enough difference in the damage output from a standard Bolter, especially within the 12" range.


'No matter the laurels of victory, no matter the glories others may seek. We are Space Marines, the Adeptus Astartes, the Angels of Death! And more than this.' he said, his voice dropping quiet. 

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Spoiler

The Vengeance Crusade Thread

Warhammer 40,000 7th ed. Fast and Furious Version


#16
Quixus

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The problem with salvo on storm bolters is that they will be used even less on power armoured units. The half range while moving makes them very unattractive.



#17
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Yeah, merging = best idea the way things are going.  This will happen soon-ish. ^_^

 

Carry on because ... why not?


"Fully dressed in the ancestral Terminator Armour of their Chapter they rise to a new level of battlefield supremacy, a level where monstrous tanks are but playthings of a child, and where Terminators, Daemons and gods stalk as equals." -Thunder and Lightning, White Dwarf 116 (UK)
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Index Astartes: Red Shoulders


#18
Captain Idaho

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Cheers bro. ;)

I actually believe a new edition is needed to make Terminators how they should be.

Hear me out here but all 40K weapons should have either anti tank or anti infantry and unit types such as vehicles should be immune to the latter.

Terminator armour should operate similar to vehicles.

Of course, this needs refinement and perhaps total immunity is too much.
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#19
Terminus

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Vehicles should just be removed from the game and use toughness values like everything else.



#20
Captain Idaho

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Alongside my idea, it would work wonders for the likes of Terminators... ;)

#21
curvacious

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I like the repeated references to "the other thread."

If you are appealing to literacy and familiarity with previous arguments and their merits, to the overall "other thread" that is the scores of other discussion threads on the specific topic, then you are really blowing it. In the other thread, many people have made objections on one point or another to the idea that +1 wound is simple or effective. I am not making a judgement on that. Since all you are doing is saying that +1 wound is simple and effective, and the other thread contains varying qualities of refutation that it is simple and effective, you seem not to have read "the other thread." You should read the other thread.

in this other thread, you can even see a poster praise +1 wound' then say that +1 T is better, then that re-forming saves are better, all with clear reasons for rejecting the old and adopting it's successor. In the current thread, this same poster has a completely different idea.

For all that, if "the other thread" just means discussions with this exact subject, then it isn't good enough. You haven't read the " other thread" unless that refers to blogs about tactics experiences, tournaments or individual games in which the usefullness of s4 shooting, unassisted deep strike, or multi-wound infantry in those specific games played by those authors is reviewed.

Maybe it will turn out that you just mean the other thread that you happen to have posted in.

#22
Captain Idaho

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I think you will find that reference to another thread means this a topic that has gone over the same ground covered here and usually is subtle instruction to use the previous thread instead of creating a 2nd (or more) thread that clogs the board.

In this case, a Mod has approved of the new thread so it's fine.

#23
Captain Idaho

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Anyhow...

Been thinking that 40K would really benefit from a "light/heavy" weapon categorisation. Limiting effectiveness of "small arms" against certain units enable stuff like Terminators to be eminent again.

Though a simple "rerolls failed saves" works well. Then players will fire AP2 at them instead.

Of course, I'd also suggest Terminator armour invulnerable saves changed to be unmodifable

Edited by Captain Idaho, 15 September 2016 - 08:49 AM.


#24
Ishagu

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Terminators just need WS5 T5 W2

Now we're talking.

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#25
Halandaar

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2 Wounds would help, but what's the justification for it? It's just a Sternguard in a bigger suit, so would Sternguard get 2W as well? I appreciate I'm probably being a bit weird but it makes more sense to me to make the armour better than the occupant hardier.

 

That said I suppose the same argument could be made for Centurions and Bikers being T5 when the actual marine inside isn't any tougher than a Tactical Marine, and that individual attribute values are just an abstraction of how difficult it is overall to kill a single model rather than accurately representing every aspect of it's fictional physiology :P.


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