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Would you play regular Terminators if....?


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#551
Ishagu

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2 Wounds at 25 points sounds perhaps a bit too good. I'd say at that point they should be 30 - 33 points.
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#552
Brightstar

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Yes, and they SHOULD be cheaper than Sternguard.

They are slow, require very expensive transportation for effective use and have rubbish shooting.

 

You've changed your tune from back in November. Back then you had Tactical Terminators at 22 points and Veterans at 18.


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#553
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Yes, and they SHOULD be cheaper than Sternguard.

They are slow, require very expensive transportation for effective use and have rubbish shooting.


You've changed your tune from back in November. Back then you had Tactical Terminators at 22 points and Veterans at 18.

Was just trying to stay on topic and not bring other units into discussion again.

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#554
Brightstar

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While that's certainly fair, I just find it interesting that you've changed position from Terminators being able to see play at 22 points, and other units seeing cost reductions to accommodate, to Terminators now needing a lower price point than that and being sufficiently worse than Sternguard Veterans that Sternguard should cost more than them. It's a suggestion I certainly wasn't expecting, although I can understand why you might feel that way about the limitations of Tactical Terminators.

 

I'm sorry that my earlier post was unnecessarily sharp.


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#555
Teetengee

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-snip-

As far as shooting into combat it should be justifiable. CSM firing into an assault that involves friendly cultists makes sense, a unit of loyalist devs firing plasma cannons into an assault involving friendly Chapter Master and retinue

 

My thought on shooting into combat is this: As long as you have a high chance of hitting your own men, chances are that the player will only make the decision to fire on something their army would care about losing in situations where it might make sense for the friendly fire to be ordered.

Loyalists firing bolts into loyalist combat against cultists makes sense: they will count on their brethren being immune to the shots.

Loyalist chapter master holding onto the enemy and then ordering plasma down on his position also makes some amount of sense, although only in a desperate last stand type deal. Then again, I can't imagine a player making the tactical decision to fire into the situation when it doesn't make narrative sense.

 

Chaos firing on chaos frankly always makes sense, as do orks (that un was mine!), nids (all the matter is just going to get reabsorbed anyway), guard (they have used guard to clear minefields before, tying down an important enemy and dropping artillery seems par for the course), dark eldar (if you hadn't moved into my shot I would have killed the guy attacking you, I just don't know what happened.), and necrons (slave/robot soldiers)

Basically only eldar would potentially never do it (their species being too few in number that it would never be worthwhile), and ad mech (maybe? i don't really know how well death sticks for them) wouldn't.

 

 

While this is more of a Meta discussion - a basic rule for Chaos, Orks, Nids & maybe Guard being able to fire into combats (within certain limitations) would be frankly, a really unique buff to them like so:

 

Nids: Bigger bugs can shoot into combat with smaller bugs

Orks: Same as above but also similar sized too

Guard: More restricted - but a Commissar could once per game place Artillery onto his own units

Chaos: If it's a cultist/ Daemon in combat - it's getting shot

 

Marines and the likes of most Imperials should never be able to - I think from a broad fluff sense this makes sense. Same with Tau (though even then Kroot could be the cultist role for these, though that doesn't keep your trusted allies happy!)

 

Eldar and Dark Eldar would never do it - lives are too precious and even the DEldar would save that crap for Commorragh....!

 

AS for TDA though - The BA Orbital Intervention Force allows tacticals to shoot twice and assaults to assault from deep strike (though disordered)... Which seem like decent fixes somewhat.

 

I'm with you on Eldar, and I buy the argument for Marines and Dark Eldar, even if I think it should be allowed. I still maintain that shooting into guard has more fluff examples than probably any other friendly fire option, and therefore should be allowed. That all being said, it should carry a significant risk to your own models, and it is primarily as a way to make allowing units into close combat more feasible. If close combat doesn't keep you completely safe, it changes how the game works enough that charging in a lot of situations that are currently disallowed would become totally reasonable. Letting terminators charge more would mean they might actually get some work done, as well as other units. Particularly, because while in cc, enemies shooting into cc with weight of fire to take down the terminators will likely shred the terminator target as well.


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In us burns a fire for vengeance that will only be quenched when we stand triumphant over the smoldering ruins of Terra. Our laughter on that day will haunt their survivors till the end of time. We will stride forth victorious through the shattered gates of their fortress, holding high aloft the defiled corpse of their rotting god as our prize.
Wulfkry, on 02 Jul 2013 - 3:38 PM, said: So an inquisitor is receiving SM implants using GK geneseed stolen off the fields of armageddon interesting..
Captain Semper, on 29 May 2015 - 4:10 AM, said: There is crazy and there is Teetengee crazy... ph34r.pngnuke.gif

Warsmith Aznable, on 30 Jan 2016 - 01:16 AM, said: 13. Teetengee wrote "Warp Born" and I won't even go into how disturbing the subject matter was.
The Psycho, on 26 Apr 2016 - 10:50 PM, said: That's either really disturbing or really cute, I haven't quite made up my mind yet.

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#556
Tyberos the Red Wake

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I prefer the route where they aren't made cheaper, but are simply made worth their cost. Even if it makes them more expensive. Terminators shouldn't become like what happened to power armor, where they just become spammable guys that die in droves. Not only does it harm the unit's lore, it also contributes to the game's scale creep, forcing everyone to buy larger and larger armies, because let's face it, people seem to hate playing smaller games and insist on playing 1850, 2000, 2500 instead of the proper 1250 or 1500.


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"Grey-clad, they came from the outer night to aid the Imperium, and their jagged maw did swallow the stars, and their black gaze did mirror the void of oblivion."

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#557
The Happy Chaplin

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175 pts for 5 termies...

 

I'm thinking maybe 2 wounds or +1T and a 4+ FNP and can re-roll the scatter dice when DSing.

 

The turn they arrive:

Regular Termies can fire twice 

Assault Termies can charge out of assault (counts as ordered)

 

If the squad contains 10 models:

Regular Termies: SB gain pinning.

Assault Termies: Termies gain +1 to their sweeping advance roll.

 

Assaults can purchase:

TH/SS for 10 pts each

Melta Bombs for 5 pts each

Assault harness (frag grenades and assault grenades) 2 pts

 

Regulars can purchase:

Combi- Weapon 5 pts

Chainfist 5 pts

Heavy Flamer 5 pts

Assault Cannon 15 pts

Cyclone ML 20 pts


Edited by The Happy Chaplin, 19 January 2017 - 12:28 AM.


#558
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If the squad contains 10 models:

Regular Termies: SB gain pinning.

Assault Termies: Termies gain +1 to their sweeping advance roll.

Only tartaros terminators can do sweeping advances, and they do not exist in 40K (yet).



#559
King Jackal

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Allowing everything to assault after deep strike might be fair but it doesn't allow different wargear/transports to carve itself a niche in a gameplay sense.
In this instance, jump packs are still inferior to bikes as a fast attack option and inferior to terminator armour on the deep strike. Why not give Terminators a protective boost when they DS and allow jump packs to fill the role? The added manoeuvrability makes sense.
As far as shooting into combat it should be justifiable. CSM firing into an assault that involves friendly cultists makes sense, a unit of loyalist devs firing plasma cannons into an assault involving friendly Chapter Master and retinue

 
How does holding back Terminators help the Jump Pack units though? Jump Packs are already better than Terminators due to certain chapters and formations, and if they still aren't good enough/inferior to Bikes, the solution is to either buff JP as well, or nerf Bikes not to keep Terminators terrible. Jump Packs ALREADY have the ability to assault after Deep Strike with formations. They've stolen the niche from Terminators, and now the argument is being presented that Terminators must not gain their rightful niche back as well, because it would infringe on the thieves?

Because in my eyes it makes more sense for the unit with greater manoeuvrability to benefit from greater manoeuvrability.

Improve Terminators, make them harder to kill, more killing power, hell give certain Terminator units formations to allow them to assault from DS but it's a niche that jump pack units probably fill in a more sensible fashion.
...for chaos reigns and panic numbs, when something wicked this way comes.

#560
Tyberos the Red Wake

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I agree jump units should be more maneuverable than the bulky and ponderous Terminators. But after the initial Deep Strike and charge, which is what the Terminators were meant to do, the jump units still boast superior maneuverability, being able to move farther on the board and leap over the tallest buildings without having to barge through the walls.

 

Terminators being able to charge out of DS does not affect or lower jump maneuverability in any way.


"Grey-clad, they came from the outer night to aid the Imperium, and their jagged maw did swallow the stars, and their black gaze did mirror the void of oblivion."

- The Canticle of Cassandria Lev - Vol.CVI [Circa M37]


#561
Irbis

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Yes, and they SHOULD be cheaper than Sternguard.

They are slow, require very expensive transportation for effective use and have rubbish shooting.

 

Ok. Let's say they are now 25 points like you propose. That makes Ogryn, worse than termies, 20 points, then Tactical marines fell to 12, Sisters to 10, Necron warriors 8, Tempestus 6, IG troopers 3, recruits/cultists 1. Do you see a slight problem here now? Race to the bottom never solves anything, if anything, points should be going up for the other stuff.

 

I remember when 100$ bought you 1000 pts in terminators/HQ. Now you'd be lucky if you got 300 pts for that. The point deflation has to end. 35 pts is ok, maybe they need a buff (how about making them T6? If Cassius can be T6 due to some metal on him, termies should be too, and that would fit their fluff perfectly too) but other than that, I feel it's good level.


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#562
Arkangilos

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Exactly. Their points need to go up, and their power levels should increase to reflect their high cost.

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#563
Teetengee

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Yes, and they SHOULD be cheaper than Sternguard.

They are slow, require very expensive transportation for effective use and have rubbish shooting.

 

Ok. Let's say they are now 25 points like you propose. That makes Ogryn, worse than termies, 20 points, then Tactical marines fell to 12, Sisters to 10, Necron warriors 8, Tempestus 6, IG troopers 3, recruits/cultists 1. Do you see a slight problem here now? Race to the bottom never solves anything, if anything, points should be going up for the other stuff.

 

I remember when 100$ bought you 1000 pts in terminators/HQ. Now you'd be lucky if you got 300 pts for that. The point deflation has to end. 35 pts is ok, maybe they need a buff (how about making them T6? If Cassius can be T6 due to some metal on him, termies should be too, and that would fit their fluff perfectly too) but other than that, I feel it's good level.

 

Why do tactical marines fall in this paradigm? The whole point of the price reduction is that Termies are too expensive relative to tacticals.

 

That being said, I am still in favour of buffing Terminators so they play more like their fluff role in order to balance them rather than just point dropping.


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My Chaos WIP Thread (Bigger Pics and Foul Xenos offsite) Hall of Honour, My Storm Reavers (DIY SM Chapter) Story, My Chaos 7.5 Homebrew Codex Thread
In us burns a fire for vengeance that will only be quenched when we stand triumphant over the smoldering ruins of Terra. Our laughter on that day will haunt their survivors till the end of time. We will stride forth victorious through the shattered gates of their fortress, holding high aloft the defiled corpse of their rotting god as our prize.
Wulfkry, on 02 Jul 2013 - 3:38 PM, said: So an inquisitor is receiving SM implants using GK geneseed stolen off the fields of armageddon interesting..
Captain Semper, on 29 May 2015 - 4:10 AM, said: There is crazy and there is Teetengee crazy... ph34r.pngnuke.gif

Warsmith Aznable, on 30 Jan 2016 - 01:16 AM, said: 13. Teetengee wrote "Warp Born" and I won't even go into how disturbing the subject matter was.
The Psycho, on 26 Apr 2016 - 10:50 PM, said: That's either really disturbing or really cute, I haven't quite made up my mind yet.

Call_of_Chaos_9_Medal_02.gifETL_2016_Medal_01_Custos_Fidei02.gifsml_gallery_29004_12090_4775.pngETL_Medal_03.giffriday-award.pngx8we_badge_teetengee.pnggallery_29004_10514_2007.jpggallery_29004_10514_234.jpggallery_48988_6285_1348.png


#564
Tyberos the Red Wake

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Based on the current state of the game, Tactical Marines are already overpriced so I don't recommend trying to use them as a point of comparison if what you're trying to do is measure points efficiency. All it does is prove Terminators are extremely overpriced, but doesn't really help find that perfect point value other than showing "it should cost less than this". Besides, there's only so far down you can go for points reductions. Best to look upward with more utility. Greyfax costing 150 points but having a whole lot of benefits is a good example.


Edited by Tyberos the Red Wake, 21 January 2017 - 01:39 AM.

"Grey-clad, they came from the outer night to aid the Imperium, and their jagged maw did swallow the stars, and their black gaze did mirror the void of oblivion."

- The Canticle of Cassandria Lev - Vol.CVI [Circa M37]


#565
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Even if you drop them to 25 points per model they are still 250 points for a 10 man squad.

Can you point to any single non-IC infantry unit that costs as much with zero upgrades?

As they currently stand, a 10 man squad with 2 Cyclones costs the same as 2 Stormraven gunships. How much would you have to buff them to have the same value as 2 Stormravens?

#566
Tyberos the Red Wake

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Can you point to any single non-IC infantry unit that costs as much with zero upgrades?

 

Honor Guard.


"Grey-clad, they came from the outer night to aid the Imperium, and their jagged maw did swallow the stars, and their black gaze did mirror the void of oblivion."

- The Canticle of Cassandria Lev - Vol.CVI [Circa M37]


#567
Arkangilos

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And Sanguinary Guard, which are at 330. 10 terminators are only 50 points more expensive than ten Death Company.

Previously known as Telanicus

 

IA Sanguinary Crusaders The Crusaders of Blood (Revised, still under some work) And WiP Page
IT Warriors of Cain Unholy Chosen The Chosen of the Unholy Imperium of Cane.

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#568
Ishagu

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One of the main reasons I complain about the cost so much is the fact that the only effective transport Terminators have is also incredibly expensive.

Look at a Tac squad - it's effective in shooting. It's easy to transport and get into it's optimum range. Getting Terminators into combat is hard and they kinda suck when they get in it anyway.

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#569
Race Bannon

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Which ... is the point of this thread ^_^


"Fully dressed in the ancestral Terminator Armour of their Chapter they rise to a new level of battlefield supremacy, a level where monstrous tanks are but playthings of a child, and where Terminators, Daemons and gods stalk as equals." -Thunder and Lightning, White Dwarf 116 (UK)
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#570
Irbis

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Why do tactical marines fall in this paradigm? The whole point of the price reduction is that Termies are too expensive relative to tacticals.

 

That being said, I am still in favour of buffing Terminators so they play more like their fluff role in order to balance them rather than just point dropping.

 

Because if you drop the point price of terminators, other stuff, just as bad, like ogryns or various other "elite" units need to go down too. Then these will be pretty much in tactical price range, you drop these down, then other imperial infantry follows. 30 pts for terminator is ok, it's the other stuff that needs to go up or we end up with minuscule points differences making whole armies obsolete. Even now sisters and tempestus players complain marine units get tons of extra goodies for pretty much same points, the game needs more granularity, not less, which would be directly caused by race to the bottom.

 

Make scatbikes/suits 50 pts, not try to make termies as points efficient as them by making them 15 pts or so.

 


One of the main reasons I complain about the cost so much is the fact that the only effective transport Terminators have is also incredibly expensive.

Look at a Tac squad - it's effective in shooting. It's easy to transport and get into it's optimum range. Getting Terminators into combat is hard and they kinda suck when they get in it anyway.

 

Which begs the question why only Astral Claws and Inquisition is smart enough to joink a few IG chimeras to transport theirs. Really now, for supposedly "inferior" vehicle, chimera is razorback, rhino and land raider rolled into one package vastly more point efficient than either of these...



#571
Tyberos the Red Wake

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Which begs the question why only Astral Claws and Inquisition is smart enough to joink a few IG chimeras to transport theirs. Really now, for supposedly "inferior" vehicle, chimera is razorback, rhino and land raider rolled into one package vastly more point efficient than either of these...

 

I suspect this is a rhetorical question, but the answer is because of the Horus Heresy and what Guilliman institute afterwards. The Astral Claws literally became heretics and traitors themselves, and part of that was because they blatantly disregarded the laws and codex mandates of Astartes not permanently commandeering human military. The Inquisition also technically outrank Astartes and even Guilliman in their authority so they can do whatever they want, and prior to Imperial Agents, the only Astartes they really had at their command in a codex was Grey Knights.


"Grey-clad, they came from the outer night to aid the Imperium, and their jagged maw did swallow the stars, and their black gaze did mirror the void of oblivion."

- The Canticle of Cassandria Lev - Vol.CVI [Circa M37]


#572
Realityburn

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My suggestion of 25 points per model was intended to put them in line with the other 1st company veterans, namely the Vanguard and Sternguard.

A naked squad of each is 220 points for 10 (including jump packs for the Vanguard).

Now, Terminators trade offensive ability for defense. Or at least they did before GW flooded the game with AP2 weapons.

A Vanguard Vet with a pair of claws is 32 points. Assault Terminators get those claws for free, but can upgrade to a TH/SS for 10 points, putting them back at 35.

Sternguard get their special ammo for free, but can take a combi weapon for 10 points, putting them at 32 points.

Roughly equal when you consider that Terminators get an invulnerable save for free and can improve it for 10 points in the case off Assault Terminators.

Bottom line, Tactical, Assault, and Devastator marines are exactly the same cost before you factor in wargear. Why should Veterans be different?

#573
Teetengee

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Why do tactical marines fall in this paradigm? The whole point of the price reduction is that Termies are too expensive relative to tacticals.

 

That being said, I am still in favour of buffing Terminators so they play more like their fluff role in order to balance them rather than just point dropping.

 

Because if you drop the point price of terminators, other stuff, just as bad, like ogryns or various other "elite" units need to go down too. Then these will be pretty much in tactical price range, you drop these down, then other imperial infantry follows. 30 pts for terminator is ok, it's the other stuff that needs to go up or we end up with minuscule points differences making whole armies obsolete. Even now sisters and tempestus players complain marine units get tons of extra goodies for pretty much same points, the game needs more granularity, not less, which would be directly caused by race to the bottom.

 

Make scatbikes/suits 50 pts, not try to make termies as points efficient as them by making them 15 pts or so.

 

-snip-

That doesn't really follow. Ultimately, anything* can be balanced by reducing its points value to equal to what it is actually worth, or increasing their effectiveness up to their points value.

 

*Exception, things like invisibility, which are literally worth any amount of points.


My Chaos WIP Thread (Bigger Pics and Foul Xenos offsite) Hall of Honour, My Storm Reavers (DIY SM Chapter) Story, My Chaos 7.5 Homebrew Codex Thread
In us burns a fire for vengeance that will only be quenched when we stand triumphant over the smoldering ruins of Terra. Our laughter on that day will haunt their survivors till the end of time. We will stride forth victorious through the shattered gates of their fortress, holding high aloft the defiled corpse of their rotting god as our prize.
Wulfkry, on 02 Jul 2013 - 3:38 PM, said: So an inquisitor is receiving SM implants using GK geneseed stolen off the fields of armageddon interesting..
Captain Semper, on 29 May 2015 - 4:10 AM, said: There is crazy and there is Teetengee crazy... ph34r.pngnuke.gif

Warsmith Aznable, on 30 Jan 2016 - 01:16 AM, said: 13. Teetengee wrote "Warp Born" and I won't even go into how disturbing the subject matter was.
The Psycho, on 26 Apr 2016 - 10:50 PM, said: That's either really disturbing or really cute, I haven't quite made up my mind yet.

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