Another Sisters Codex Re-Write (Major Update - See OP)

[Teetengee]

So, as you originally wrote it, Divine Guidance only applied to assault. Now that it applies to shooting, it absolutely needs to be 2+ faith points.

Additionally, is Holy Fusilade supposed to be a mirror to the Passion?

Word of the Emperor is not worth more than 1 FP.

Heavy Stubbers are in the BRB.

Priestly Relic?


Overall, I would be extremely careful with just porting old rules into the new rules. I would definitely look to them for inspiration, but the effect and playstyle of those rules may be best ported by not porting them over directly.

[Jacinda]

 

Shield of Faith: Models with this rule have the Adamantium Will special rule, and units containing at least one model with this rule may not be the target of Psychic Powers manifested by friendly psychic models or units. Additionally, models with this rule ignore the effects of the Instant Death special rule when wounded by weapons with the Force special rule.

Seems like a penalty for those who are looking for some allied psychic boost with a benefit that really isnt. I

 

Ignoring instant death on single wound models? Are you making BSS two wound models?

 

I would rather have the option to buff my sisters and the invuln.

 

There was a time when this was standard.  I don't recall the Force immunity but second or third edition Sisters were immune to psychic powers, both harmful and beneficial.  It goes along with all the fluff regarding Black Fleet duty.

 

Obviously I would like to see it revived in some form with any new codex.

[Servant of Dante]

So, as you originally wrote it, Divine Guidance only applied to assault. Now that it applies to shooting, it absolutely needs to be 2+ faith points.

Originally I said all attacks, meaning for it to be ranged and melee. I agree it was not clear. I think 2 is probably a better number.

Additionally, is Holy Fusilade supposed to be a mirror to the Passion?

another typo. I meant to change it to Ignores cover

Word of the Emperor is not worth more than 1 FP.

OK, I just thoguht it might be disruptive if it was spammed too much, but since it's only ICs . . .

Heavy Stubbers are in the BRB.

OK I din't see them there. Thanks!

Priestly Relic?

Something I considered. Copied over the power armour entry and changed the name. nbever go around to writing the rules for it. Now it's just a typo

Overall, I would be extremely careful with just porting old rules into the new rules. I would definitely look to them for inspiration, but the effect and playstyle of those rules may be best ported by not porting them over directly.

I did modify them to make them work. Really, adapting old rules is at least half of the rules writing I do. I enjoy porting/adapting over old rules (just look at what I did for Helena) so I will keep doing that. If you see an issue, please bring it up.

Thanks!

[Servant of Dante]

 

 

Shield of Faith: Models with this rule have the Adamantium Will special rule, and units containing at least one model with this rule may not be the target of Psychic Powers manifested by friendly psychic models or units. Additionally, models with this rule ignore the effects of the Instant Death special rule when wounded by weapons with the Force special rule.

Seems like a penalty for those who are looking for some allied psychic boost with a benefit that really isnt. I

 

Ignoring instant death on single wound models? Are you making BSS two wound models?

 

I would rather have the option to buff my sisters and the invuln.

 

There was a time when this was standard.  I don't recall the Force immunity but second or third edition Sisters were immune to psychic powers, both harmful and beneficial.  It goes along with all the fluff regarding Black Fleet duty.

 

Obviously I would like to see it revived in some form with any new codex.

 

In 3.5 (the witch hunters codex) they had immunity to minor psychic powers and force (look under the Shield of Faith rule on page 18 if you are interested in reading it for yourself).

[Teetengee]

Cool, that addresses a lot of my concerns.

Also, I really like Holy Fusilade. meltas ahoy! (you may want to add something to them if they already ignore cover though, for instance, give template weapons shred?)

[dracpanzer]

My point isn't that Sisters players should be able to receive blessings from friendly psykers.  Just that in the current edition what little balance there is includes available blessings from allied pyskers in the math.  If you remove it, as well as dropping the 6++, you are actually nerfing the Sisters. 

 

I would maintain that AoF should be every round anyways, if they were all sorted out properly (celestians fixed and what not) making them available every turn through a leadership test MIGHT be equal in value to some of the SM chapter tactics.

 

With the fact that a Sister costs 12pts and a Marine costs 14pts there is still some ground to be made up.  Removing blessings and the 6++ would make the Sister even less valuable.  With ignoring instant death against Force only really mattering for characters it tips even further and I think you need to include some sort of compensation to balance it. 

[A.T.]

There are a few ways you could handle psykers if you were looking for a more middle ground solution. The old limitation of characters joined to sisters squads stopping them using their faith (which is missing from your rules) could be re-added for psykers.

 

As the faith powers are now used in the psychic phase you could also just subtract faith points from your available total based on the number of psykers or even total mastery levels.

 

 

---------------------------

 

Google drive codex thoughts -

 

Priestly relics have the power armour rules.

 

Militia should probably just conform to the conscript/renegade rabble rules - 3pts each, pistol and cc weapon, flat cost for armour regardless of squad size. I always think with fandex work that borrowing from existing similar units is the best starting point, the balance may be wrong but at least it is consistent with other GW products.

 

Holy fusillade - no rules

 

Divine guidance - your mileage may vary in testing, In my own fandex I reverted this back to the original 'roll of 6 to wound becomes AP1' rather than rending, it takes a little of the edge off the power.

[Servant of Dante]

My point isn't that Sisters players should be able to receive blessings from friendly psykers.  Just that in the current edition what little balance there is includes available blessings from allied pyskers in the math.  If you remove it, as well as dropping the 6++, you are actually nerfing the Sisters. 

 

I would maintain that AoF should be every round anyways, if they were all sorted out properly (celestians fixed and what not) making them available every turn through a leadership test MIGHT be equal in value to some of the SM chapter tactics.

 

With the fact that a Sister costs 12pts and a Marine costs 14pts there is still some ground to be made up.  Removing blessings and the 6++ would make the Sister even less valuable.  With ignoring instant death against Force only really mattering for characters it tips even further and I think you need to include some sort of compensation to balance it. 

I'll see what I can come up with. Again, do you have any suggestions?

 

 

There are a few ways you could handle psykers if you were looking for a more middle ground solution. The old limitation of characters joined to sisters squads stopping them using their faith (which is missing from your rules) could be re-added for psykers.

 

As the faith powers are now used in the psychic phase you could also just subtract faith points from your available total based on the number of psykers or even total mastery levels.

 

 

---------------------------

 

Google drive codex thoughts -

 

Priestly relics have the power armour rules.

again, typo. I fixed it in word, but got distracted before I uploaded to google drive.

Militia should probably just conform to the conscript/renegade rabble rules - 3pts each, pistol and cc weapon, flat cost for armour regardless of squad size. I always think with fandex work that borrowing from existing similar units is the best starting point, the balance may be wrong but at least it is consistent with other GW products.

hum. I guess I'll consider it.

Holy fusillade - no rules

same as priestly relics. typo.

Divine guidance - your mileage may vary in testing, In my own fandex I reverted this back to the original 'roll of 6 to wound becomes AP1' rather than rending, it takes a little of the edge off the power.

I'd rather not have something that's basically a rule that already exists but isn't.

New version of codex in the Original Post!

[Teetengee]

There are a few ways you could handle psykers if you were looking for a more middle ground solution. The old limitation of characters joined to sisters squads stopping them using their faith (which is missing from your rules) could be re-added for psykers.

 

-snip-

I like this solution the best actually. Properly discourages running psykers with sisters, without being too heavy handed a nerf.

[Servant of Dante]

 

There are a few ways you could handle psykers if you were looking for a more middle ground solution. The old limitation of characters joined to sisters squads stopping them using their faith (which is missing from your rules) could be re-added for psykers.

 

-snip-

I like this solution the best actually. Properly discourages running psykers with sisters, without being too heavy handed a nerf.

 

I actually do to.  Alright, we can go with that.

 

It still ticks me off to think of someone casting say, quickening, on a Sisters character, but this will at least allow someone to do it if they reaally feel the need to. They just don't get as many Acts of Faith.

 

I'm going to make the penalty be equal to total mastery levels, and no, the penalty doesn't go away if the psykers die.

 

I'd still be open to adding some kind of bonus to counter the loss of the 6++

[Teetengee]

 

 

There are a few ways you could handle psykers if you were looking for a more middle ground solution. The old limitation of characters joined to sisters squads stopping them using their faith (which is missing from your rules) could be re-added for psykers.

 

-snip-

I like this solution the best actually. Properly discourages running psykers with sisters, without being too heavy handed a nerf.

 

I actually do to.  Alright, we can go with that.

 

It still ticks me off to think of someone casting say, quickening, on a Sisters character, but this will at least allow someone to do it if they reaally feel the need to. They just don't get as many Acts of Faith.

 

I'm going to make the penalty be equal to total mastery levels, and no, the penalty doesn't go away if the psykers die.

 

Keep in mind that you can join a sorcerer to a Khorne Daemonkin Flesh Hounds unit and cast on it. You can even join a marked sorcerer to that unit. Consider that Flesh Hounds all wear the brass collar of khorne (an item specifically designed by the god of hating witches to nullify magic powers) and are still able to be affected. Just some food for thought.

[CaptainHelion]

Not entirely sold on your Faith system, but that's neither here nor there. Had some time this afternoon, so I threw together some ideas for a Novice squad, which you can see here. Gave them bolt weapons, because that's thematic, but I figured no Canoness would want their novices right up in the line of fire, so made up a bolter variant based around messing with other units, rather than out and out killing them. Sort of like sniper scouts, but with more focus on utility.

Conqueror is based on both Phosphor weapons from the Adeptus Mechanicus and Stalker bolters from basically everywhere, and Defender was an idea messing with units that have gotten too close for comfort.

[Servant of Dante]

Not entirely sold on your Faith system, but that's neither here nor there. Had some time this afternoon, so I threw together some ideas for a Novice squad, which you can see here. Gave them bolt weapons, because that's thematic, but I figured no Canoness would want their novices right up in the line of fire, so made up a bolter variant based around messing with other units, rather than out and out killing them. Sort of like sniper scouts, but with more focus on utility.

Conqueror is based on both Phosphor weapons from the Adeptus Mechanicus and Stalker bolters from basically everywhere, and Defender was an idea messing with units that have gotten too close for comfort.

Cool! I'll look at that later. One small fluff note - Novices are not assigned to an order until they take their vows on Terra as far as I know. I'll see if I can find the relevant quote from the 2E codex.

Edit: Nope, can't find it but I know I read it!

Anyway I meant the novices to represent a squad from the convent prioris or Sanctorum attached to a unit from an order militant for live combat training.

[Servant of Dante]

I looked at your Novice write up. Personally, I don't think they need their own kind of armour, when carapace works just fine, but that's just me.

 

I would (again, personally) give them standard boltguns, especially since the ones you gave them with 2 profiles are strictly better (by a good margin) than a standard bolter.

 

As for my faith system, I'm not 100% happy with it either but it's so hard to get something that satisfies what I want an AoF to be aesthetically, and isn't hideously complicated. I hoped making them work mechanically almost a bit like psychic powers might make them a bit easier to understand. For what I want, what I have written is a close fit.

[A.T.]

Anyway I meant the novices to represent a squad from the convent prioris or Sanctorum attached to a unit from an order militant for live combat training.

 

One of my earlier books had them as meatshields partnered to Celestians, in the style of the Templar neophytes and initiates - squads would start out as five celestians and five novicae and then you could bulk it out with more of both.

It formed the close combat blob squad to the battle sisters shooty blob squad, but was redundant with the ecclesiarchy units mixed in.

[Servant of Dante]

 

Anyway I meant the novices to represent a squad from the convent prioris or Sanctorum attached to a unit from an order militant for live combat training.

 

One of my earlier books had them as meatshields partnered to Celestians, in the style of the Templar neophytes and initiates - squads would start out as five celestians and five novicae and then you could bulk it out with more of both.

It formed the close combat blob squad to the battle sisters shooty blob squad, but was redundant with the ecclesiarchy units mixed in.

 

I'm writing mine specifically to prevent you from using Novices as meatshields (personally, I would stick them in front of Retributor squads to die).

 

The Heirs of the Sororitas rule has the full Sisters throwing themselves in front of bullets headed for the Novices (basically auto Look Out Sir vs shooting). I love the imagery it evokes.

 

Eidt: I have the rule written up now, but I don't have time to update the google doc atm.

[CaptainHelion]

I looked at your Novice write up. Personally, I don't think they need their own kind of armour, when carapace works just fine, but that's just me.

Yeah, the Noviate Demi-Plate is literally just renamed Carapace armour, I just thought it sounded cool :P

 

 

I would (again, personally) give them standard boltguns, especially since the ones you gave them with 2 profiles are strictly better (by a good margin) than a standard bolter.

My intention was to tick two boxes, basically. The first is to actually give Novices a niche that isn't just "Cheaper Battle Sisters with worse shooting and lighter armour". I figured longer range bolters would do that, but I probably went a bit overboard with Neat Stuff. The second box was to have a niche that would keep novices away from the very front lines, in a similar way to how Space Marine scouts are used largely as, well, scouts and infiltrators, and they don't tend to actually do the heavy lifting in a fight.

What if I dropped the Defender Rounds entirely, and made the Conqueror Bolter 30" Heavy2? The longer range is offset by the unit having to stay still to fire for full effect, and its still s4 ap5.

 

And as for the Faith, I don't really know what else you could do to manage what you want.

[Servant of Dante]

I looked at your Novice write up. Personally, I don't think they need their own kind of armour, when carapace works just fine, but that's just me.

Yeah, the Noviate Demi-Plate is literally just renamed Carapace armour, I just thought it sounded cool

I would (again, personally) give them standard boltguns, especially since the ones you gave them with 2 profiles are strictly better (by a good margin) than a standard bolter.

My intention was to tick two boxes, basically. The first is to actually give Novices a niche that isn't just "Cheaper Battle Sisters with worse shooting and lighter armour". I figured longer range bolters would do that, but I probably went a bit overboard with Neat Stuff. The second box was to have a niche that would keep novices away from the very front lines, in a similar way to how Space Marine scouts are used largely as, well, scouts and infiltrators, and they don't tend to actually do the heavy lifting in a fight.

What if I dropped the Defender Rounds entirely, and made the Conqueror Bolter 30" Heavy2? The longer range is offset by the unit having to stay still to fire for full effect, and its still s4 ap5.

And as for the Faith, I don't really know what else you could do to manage what you want.

That is an interesting idea. Dropping the 24" profile is probably good.

I'm going to stay with the version I have, since I'd rather not add another weapon to the game (I will re-implement Character Specific weapons that have been removed along with the character they go with, like the Rod of Grace for Helena the Virtuous).

Oh, and I have an adaptation of 2E Helena for the current GW codex if you haven't seen it. I have wrote a (what I consider) through discussion of my reasoning as I wrote her rules, in order to justify them and maybe even convince someone to run her in a game.

[Servant of Dante]

A rather silly number of hours (for what I got done) went into the HQ section. There where just so many considerations to balance to get a mix of previous rules sets and current 40k rules design philosophy (of course, this is just my perception of 40k)

 

The new version is available in the Original Post of this thread (I don't want to clutter the thread up with a bunch of outdated versions).

 

A couple notes: I buffed Celestine (mixing some of her 3E WH abilities with S/T 4 and Eternal Warrior). Jacobus might need some work. I don't think I'm going to include Helena and Praxedes's respective Warlord Traits in the Sisters Warlord Trait table (they do a lot and I just don't want that as a random result - they are adaptations of Special Rules they had in 2E, but I made them Warlord Traits here). The Pronatus has a random heretical forbidden relic, and the Famulus does use a random table to determine what IG unit she brings along. She will give a discount on it (each of the options is worth 120 points, so I'll probably charge 100 pts for the Famulus upgrade).

 

And the big one: I wanted SoF to offer some kind of save, and it seems that that most thematic thing (if you are taking AoFs to be Sisters being awesome rather than the Emperor actually reaching down and affecting things) is FnP(6+). So there's that.

 

Feel free to ask questions. I'm sure there's some other weird stuff I did that I forgot to explain (also, typos) :)

 

Thanks!

[Drider]

Shield of Faith: Models with this rule have the Feel no Pain (6+)

and Adamantium Will special rules, and only have their Wounds

reduced by one when they suffer an unsaved wound that causes

Instant Death from a weapon with the Force special rule.

 

You didn't just take away the the SoF 6+ invul.... All my vehicles are looking pretty annoyed right now. My penitent engines are starting to look angry and you wouldn't like them when they're angry.

 

SoF as it is now is effectively worth 5ppm right now (although i think it's over costed). i'm not even sure if i would value a 6+ FNP on t3 models as any random s6 shooting/attack is just going to negate it. On the flip side what is effectively an army wide eternal warrior (all be it slightly nerfed) is potentially broken op. Especially if you make Penitent's into MCs to counter the nerf you just gave them.

I like the jump pack option for the canoness. This makes me happy. :)

 

If celestines or dominions had an option to take bikes that would make me happy too. :)

[Servant of Dante]

Shield of Faith: Models with this rule have the Feel no Pain (6+)

and Adamantium Will special rules, and only have their Wounds

reduced by one when they suffer an unsaved wound that causes

Instant Death from a weapon with the Force special rule.

 

You didn't just take away the the SoF 6+ invul.... All my vehicles are looking pretty annoyed right now. My penitent engines are starting to look angry and you wouldn't like them when they're angry.

 

SoF as it is now is effectively worth 5ppm right now (although i think it's over costed). i'm not even sure if i would value a 6+ FNP on t3 models as any random s6 shooting/attack is just going to negate it. On the flip side what is effectively an army wide eternal warrior (all be it slightly nerfed) is potentially broken op. Especially if you make Penitent's into MCs to counter the nerf you just gave them.

 

I like the jump pack option for the canoness. This makes me happy. :)

 

If celestines or dominions had an option to take bikes that would make me happy too. :)

I absolutely love the gameplay of the 6++ for SoF but I changed for fluff reasons (actually, before this update my version of SoF didn't give any extra save). The force weapon thing will almost never come up. It only matters with Praxedes and the regular Canoness (if said Canoness does not already have ES from the MoO) and nobody ever really activates force weapons anyway. I'll work out points costs later

 

Oh, also, you may want to talk to a confessor if you see vehicles looking at people. There might be a witch around messing with your senses :P

 

I'm not a fan of Sisters bikes, by maybe they would be cool. I'm trying to not add completely new units or wargear (i am pulling pleanty of things from older editions though). Celestians on bikes might be neat.

[Drider]

I'd rather have the the ++ than a FNP in general because of how much s6 stuff there is. I mean it's not to be relied on but it's nice when it happens and you're always going to get the ++ while you're only going to sometimes get the FNP. (the vet superior in the BSS has W2 as well :P)

I've been a fan of the idea of sisters on bikes for a while. I imagine something like Judge Dredd on his Lawmaster only with Sisters and associated iconography. To me it feels grim dark enough, fits that for the most part sisters use marine equivalent vehicles, wargear etc and most importantly for fills the rule of cool!

[Servant of Dante]

I don't know that I'm going to add bikes, just doesn't inspire me.

 

Obviously I like the 6++ in game better, as I said.

 

But it just doesn't mesh with the interpretation of the fluff I'm going for, and that is more important to me.

[Grgobart]

...you're always going to get the ++ while you're only going to sometimes get the FNP...

But in case armour or cover applies the ++ is useless.

 

I'm not a fan of Sistes on Bikes either, but I have to say it's a matter of taste, rather than having a solid reason to it.

 

Now about the Pronatus' so called "relics", I'd think using Xeno Tech should be left to the radical Inquisitors! As special as the Pronatus may be among the Sororitas, they're still Sororitas. Also Relics, as I see it, should be fancy old equipment, the Imperium is no longer capable of producing, or once regular equipment now dripping with awesome, due to the deeds done by previous wielders.

 

As for the Famulous, I see how you got there, but it strikes me as a bit impractical in actual use. An idea for the Famulous, that has been floating around in my head for a while, was rolling on a table for impovemnts on the equipment of one of the Fratris Militia units (better aim, armour, etc.) kind of similar to those inquisitional orange furry things.

 

And concerning the Palatine, will there be anything to that entry other than being a cheaper version of the Canoness?

[Drider]

in terms of having a solid reason to it, i like the idea of being able to buff up a unit with +1 toughness and/or high mobility. t4 celestians would make them almost worth using, 12" movement dominions would also been pretty sweet, or a sororitas command squad with power axes, on bikes. 

 

To me it just feels like one of the tools we're missing from our codex that could give us some really fun and useful options. But as you say, it's not for everyone.