A returning Raven Guard player…it's been 8 years!

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

Warning: Wall of text below, my personal back story, a model inventory, my army list, and then finally talking points:

**Skip to the next set of asterisk if you don’t want to read about my personal garbage/story/background**

So a little about me first. I learned to play 40k just before 3rd edition came out, so my first exposure to the game was 2nd edition, and I was instantly addicted. My first army was of course Space Marines, and I became fixated on trying to cram in as many Dreadnaughts and Terminators into my army list as possible. One of the first books I ever purchased was Angels of Death (the first one from 2nd edition mind you, not the new one out now), and I found myself gravitating towards the Blood Angels from a fluff perspective. As I grew along with the rules of the game, I found myself becoming drawn more towards the fluff of the game, which in turn led me to try to create my own chapter (Based on Blood Angel gene seed), and becoming more and more fixated on mobility to win my games.

Fast forward to later editions of the Space Marine codex, and it became a more viable option to play the less-than-popular Raven Guard, which allowed things like Assault Squads as troops and a few other special rules through the first rendition of the Chapter Tactics system. 4th edition is when I started to get really serious and competitive, and I took my Raven Guard around to multiple GTs and local tournaments. Had a blast, and was really in love with the current rendition of the game (very much heavy character and assault focused). Those of you who played during that time frame will refer to what I liked to call “Assault Cannon meta”, as it was one of the strongest weapon profiles in the game, and playing a successful marine list competitively involved cramming as many as you could into 2000 points.

Couple years later I make some big changes in my life, sell off my 2nd Marine army (a True Grit/Mechanized list), along with my Eldar army as well. Gave away all my terrain and my custom table to a buddy, and moved across the country. The only thing I kept was my prized Raven Guard which was fully painted and has a display board. I kept reading the fluff and somewhat following along with the rules editions and books, but pretty much stopped playing altogether after moving across the country.

Now, almost 8 years later, I can’t stand it any longer, and I miss face to face gaming so much, I am getting back into the hobby (not just 40k), and I am at a bit of a crossroads with my beloved Raven Guard.

**Personal garbage over**

My list/available models looked(looks) something like this:

HQ:
Shrike
Captain with Jump Pack and LCx2 (SS&M) (My Shrike conversion before he got a model)
Chaplain with Jump Pack x 2
Shadow Captain Korvydae

Elite:
2 x Venerable Dreadnaught (1 TL-LC, Power Fist w/ SB, 1 TL-LC & Missle Launcher)

Troops:
~40 Scouts
6 x BP + CCW, 6 X Bolter, 6 X Shotgun, 14 x Sniper Rifle, 2 x Missle Launcher, 2 X Heavy Bolter
1 x Vet Scout Sergeant with Power Sword + BP, 1 x Vet Scout Sergeant with Power Fist + BP

Fast Attack:
~40 Assault Marines
6 x CCW + Plasma Pistol, 2 x Flamer, 28 X BP + CCW
3 x Vet Sergeant with Power Fist + Plasma Pistol, 1 x Sergeant with Power Sword + Plasma Pistol
5 Man Bike Squad (with Attack Bike)
2 x Plasma Gun, 1 Attack Bike with Multi Melta

Heavy Support:
Whirlwind

Basically this list relied on two full 10-man assault squads both with a Chaplain rolling up the flanks, with the scouts deployed in terrain across the table holding objectives and forcing a ton of pinning checks (back in 4th each time a unit was shot at by Snipers they took a pinning check).

Now that we are on into 7th Edition, this available model pool has a lot of garbage in it, more or less.

A couple things to note:

1) I don’t have any librarians, the psychic phase was pretty awful when I played, and psykers and Raven Guard didn’t seem like a fit to me at the time

2) Chaplains, while they aren’t bad, they are not nearly as strong as they used to be. While they are good in theory, they don’t really fit now in a modern Raven Guard list (other than a cheap tax). You can’t put them with VV in a SSKT, and the only real home for them is with a regular Assault Squad, which….sucks for the most part. This makes me sad because I love the modelling and fluff behind Chaplains (plus I love the idea of a RG Chaplain being a quiet/reserved type of leader that inspires his men, the “When he speaks everyone in the room listens” kind of leader, lead by example, not by words, etc).

3) I wanted to minimize armor (and transports), and what armor I did have I wanted to be walking/on foot, hence the Dreadnaughts. Back in 4th a Twin Linked Lascannon was great for taking out armor, now in a world of Hull Points and the Vehicle Damage table the way it is, its lackluster to say the least.

4) My scout models are all over the place. I personally feel (and in my limited playtesting) that Sniper scouts are more or less bad, and bolter scouts seems to be the best use of points (cheap and flexible). I still use Camo Cloak Snipers to camp objectives in my lists, but they almost never do anything of note other than score Maelstrom cards. I also don’t feel great about heavy weapon scouts either.

5) I don’t have any Tactical Marines (I have a fair amount of unbuilt tacticals I have acquired along the way). When I built this army, I did so because I wanted to AVOID tactical marines. I loved the dynamic of Scouts hunkered down calling in support from their older brothers, and them descending from the skies from Thunderhawks on wings of flame. That sort of dynamic is either A) bad, or achievable with some formation combinations but still not strong (except the SSKT, which I LOVE)

6) You’ll notice lots of Plasma across my Assault Marines and Bikes. This obviously was the choice before Grav existed, but is sub-optimal now to say the least. Not attached to this at all anymore, just making a note of why it is the way it is.

7) My lone Whirlwind. I fielded this for a couple reasons 1) I loved it thematically. It just seemed to fit to have scouts calling in an artillery strike, and back then it added to the pinning theme. 2) While it is armor, it was always back in a corner usually hidden from the enemy, so it didn’t really “count” per-se. If I was to redo the list today, I feel like I would either up it to a squad of 3 for the bonuses, run it in the Landspeeder formation, or swap to Thunderfire Cannons entirely to reinforce the “on foot, mobility” theme.

Some notes about new things that have come along:

1) Land speeder storms look amazing to me, I have never played with one before, but from my perspective they appear to be quintessential Raven Guard (Whispercutter anyone?). Would love to work these in (if I do go down the road of updating my army)

2) Grav and Centurions: I have been playtesting my “new” list with Centurions, and they are amazing. To me, they also feel very Raven Guard since they are once again, on foot, mobile, and could be easily dropped off and extracted for a task (and quickly).

3) I am a big fan of the Raptor Wing, and back when I played Flyers were non existent (it was commonplace to ask for an opponents permission to run one, and most tournaments restricted their usage, much like you’ll see with Gargantuans in todays meta). Two little flying gunships bringing in support seems awesome.

4) I have been I love with the Damocles Rhino since I saw its rules a few years back, and it feels very Raven Guard to me, while it takes a CAD to get it, I have toyed with wanting to do so.

Now on to my modern list I have been testing:

TSF
Battle Demi Company

Captain, Ravens Fury, SS&M, Melta Bombs

1 Dreadnaught with Multi-Melta, PF w/Heavy Flamer in Drop Pod

5 Man Tactical Squad w/ Heavy Bolter (I tested Gravs on foot for a while, but found I needed to move around too much to be effective, more on this later)
5 Man Tactical Squad w/ Heavy Bolter
5 Man Tactical Squad w/ Heavy Bolter

3 Man Centurion Devastator Squad w/ Grav Cannons, and Omniscope

1 Attack Bike with Multi-Melta

Shadow-Strike Kill Team

5 x Scouts with Bolters
5 x Scouts with Bolters

8 x Vanguard Veterans 5 x Twin LC (and Melta Bombs) 3 x PF & SS

Raven Guard CAD

1 Librarian ML2 with Armor of Shadows (Goes with Cents)
6 x Scouts with 5 x Snipers, 1 x Missle Launcher, Camo Cloaks
6 x Scouts with 5 x Snipers, 1 x Missle Launcher, Camo Cloaks
1 x Drop Pod

So the above list has been my “bare bones” and I typically flesh out from there (frequently playing at 1700 and 1850). I put the centurions in the pod with the Librarian, and I typically drop them in the middle of the table in cover on an objective, and they sit there getting a 2+ cover. This seems to work well against non-psyker armies, and is useless against lists with a respectable warp dice pool.

I have played with a 10-man Assault squad with 2 flamers, Vet sarge with Power fist, and a chaplain (old school), and it does okay, but it almost never earns its points back. Their strongest suit appears to be having ObSec from the Demi Co bonuses (also I have tested a couple games using Korvydae in a CAD with Obsec Assault squads, which seems…okay?)

So with all the above crap written out, and assuming you are still reading this, why am I writing all this up? Well, to generate some back in forth discussion, because frankly, after coming back to B&C forums after years of hiatus, you have no idea how much it warms my heart to see the sort of activity the forum has now. Back when I played it felt like it was only me and 1-2 other people that ever posted anything of note, and discussions were minimal. So with that in mid, here are my “talking points”

Talking Points

1) Tactical Marines: What the hell do you do with your tactical marines? If you put them in a transport, you lose half our Chapter Tactics (and having them mechanized in Rhino or RB feels unfluffy to me). Drop pods feel more fluffly (Im a big fan of the 5 Man Melta/Combi Melta in a pod), but that still costs us the use of our Shrouded. I have been testing Tacticals on foot, and keeping them cheap, and it feels okay, but unfulfilling. Would love to hear others thoughts on the subject.

2) Assault Marines: Feel like garbage now. In fact, the more I play with them, I feel like they are good for TWO things and TWO THINGS ONLY, 1) 2 Flamers, 2) Re-rollable Hammer of Wrath. Hammer of Wrath is shockingly good, much better than I ever considered it on paper. I feel like it gives more damage than my actual CC attacks do in most fights. Feels like playing Assault Marines without ObSec is 100% awful

3) Librarians: I feel like playing with a lone wolf Librarian can seem okay, but most often I play against other psykers, and I feel like a guy who brought a knife to a gun fight. Feels like if you want to tap into the psychic phase, bring a conclave or go home. Has anyone had any success trying a Raven Guard conclave?

4) Grenades and the FAQ: Does anyone find the new one-grenade in close combat rule ridiculous? I feel like as a Raven Guard player that was my go-to for dealing with vehicles, and now its considerably neutered. Does your local play group use this rule in the FAQ? If they do, do you find it impacts you? Do you run other things in your list to crack armor?

5) Scout Bikes and Land Speeder Storms: I own neither of these (model wise, and I don’t really have something similar silhouette wise for proxy) but they feel very Raven Guard. Do you have experience running them? How successful are you with them? What do you use load-out wise?

6) Battle Demi Co vs Pinion Demi Co: I haven’t played Pinion at all yet, because frankly, I don’t have transports for my tacticals, and if im going to be outflanking them, I feel I need Scout bikes and Tacticals in Rhinos or Razorbacks. That being said I am in love with the Demi Co and its ObSec (even if I forget to use my Tactical Doctrine half the time, oh, and I never remember to use my Hurricane Bolters on my Centurions either!)

7) Shadow Strike Kill Team: Oh my lawd, is this the business or what? Its fluffy, its fun from a modelling perspective, and its damn good to boot. Less of a talking point but more of a “how do you equip your SSKT?” I would love to see how people outfit both their scouts and their Vanguard Vets.

8) Lastly, and this is less tactical and more of a modelling question: My whole army is pewter, or plastic/pewter hybrid kits. While I have a handful of sculpts I am attached to, plastic as a whole is so much easier and better to work with (and lighter to haul around). I am giving serious consideration selling my entire army (sans 2-3 figures I have a personal attachment too), and then starting over from scratch and having new plastic kits on everything. If you were in my shoes, would you do the same?

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

The battle demi company just strikes me as vanilla marines with black armour.   Run the pinion demi company!  That would give your captain something to do...he could go with the mandatory assault squad.  You just need some devs and you are good to go.

 

Regarding your 2nd talking point.  I think assault marines are only good if they are sufficiently threatening without being too expensive.  So if you stick your captain in a 5 man assault marine group with 2 flames then you have a faster squad with a purpose... BBQing orks,pathfinders and other squishy non vehicle targets.  If you can combine this squad with other threatening elements it can serve its purpose and not get picked off for nothing.  For example... on turn 1 you have your assault squad deploy aggressively with your scouts and your SSKT VVs so that your opponent has too much to shoot at.  If you run the pinion demi company your assault marines also have a deep strike option so you just land and BBQ something right away.  

 

I fully agree with you.  ASM's without Obsec aren't too good.  While I only have limited experience in low point games so far, I found them to be effective only when combined with other MORE threatening units.  If I was going to run the demi with the idea of winning games, I would just take a squad of grav bikers and be done with it.   My assault marines are probably not optimal.  I have a 5 man squad with 2 flamers and a vet sarge with a bigass fist and they are attached to a chaplain with a crozius and a fist.  This squad is a threat to a wide range of targets and works alright when my opponent is also point blank with my sternguard and vanguard units along with some scouts with mother fornicating shotguns!  It isn't top tier stuff but it is Raven Guardesque.

 

About the SSKT.  If you want to win games load up this formation.  More vets and more power weapons.  Since the vets get point discounted power weapons, I don't see any reason not to leverage this advantage and load up as much as you can.  If the people you play against are vehicle junkies than load up on fists/hammers.  If they are huge spammers that turn the table into an ocean of green xenos, mince them with claws.  I really can't see any reason not to have this formation as the centre piece of your army since it basically takes models off the table for free.  Fatten up that VV squad to 10.  That way you can either run a two 5 man squads with specific purposes in mind or one ten man squad of doom that charges the opponents juiciest toughest target and wipes it out.  I don't like the idea of adding anything to the scouts in the SSKT.  They are just there to reduce scatter and maybe grab some objective.  If they don't even kill a single grot, who cares really?  Even better would be if the enemy used a turn of shooting on them and NOT on something more valuable.      

 

The coolest thing ever is the land speeder storm.  I have played some basement games now with some family members and my one epic highlight so far is causing some terminators to scatter and die from mishap because of the LSS"s jamming beacon which doubles scatter dice of units deepstriking within 12 inches.  I had just parked my scouts next my devs for ignores cover from pinion and my opponent tried to deep strike with some terminators.  Maybe he took too great a risk or just made a bad decision.  Even if he chose not to DS, I would have been happy since my devs could have kept shooting with ignores cover.  I don't have the models yet but I will be painting up some scout bikers once I get the $$ for it.  I really like the idea of locator beacons and melta bombs scout bikers for something like 70 points?  Ridiculous value!  I had some delusion about scout bikers with a vet sarge with a power sword whose job it is to issue challenges to ork nobs and use his superior initiative to kill the nob and break a big squad of boys.  That is probably wishful thinking though.  I also had this other idea where you could take a 3 man squad of scout bikers, give two of them astartes grenade launchers and use them to glance rhinos or even kill a dread from behind.  Scout bikers are on my wishlist for xmas!

 

 

 

[Mr. Poe]

 

 

1) Tactical Marines: What the hell do you do with your tactical marines? If you put them in a transport, you lose half our Chapter Tactics (and having them mechanized in Rhino or RB feels unfluffy to me). Drop pods feel more fluffly (Im a big fan of the 5 Man Melta/Combi Melta in a pod), but that still costs us the use of our Shrouded. I have been testing Tacticals on foot, and keeping them cheap, and it feels okay, but unfulfilling. Would love to hear others thoughts on the subject.

 

Don't bring them! Seriously hats off to you sir, packing 40 ASM and 40 Scouts like a boss. Having so many assault marines and scouts would lead me to believe that you enjoy the fluff behind the chapter/list more so than the competitiveness it can bring to the table. The only thing that requires you to bring Tac's is the Pinion and Demi, which you don't have to use (we have so many juicy formations now). I'm in the same boat as you, I don't like the idea of Rhinos/Razorbacks which is probably the best way to field tactical squads. Otherwise they are just objective campers which you can use some of those 40 scouts (damn son) for at a cheaper cost.  

 

 

 

2) Assault Marines: Feel like garbage now. In fact, the more I play with them, I feel like they are good for TWO things and TWO THINGS ONLY, 1) 2 Flamers, 2) Re-rollable Hammer of Wrath. Hammer of Wrath is shockingly good, much better than I ever considered it on paper. I feel like it gives more damage than my actual CC attacks do in most fights. Feels like playing Assault Marines without ObSec is 100% awful

 

Assault marines are garbage now, yes. I hate the fact that the only thing they are good at is bring flamer templates and melta-bombs; it's a little silly. They are expensive, 3+ save models that lose to almost all other quasi-dedicated close combat units other armies can field. The re-rollable HoW is awesome but you can get that with your Vanguard Veterans which hit a lot harder and can bring storm shields. If you like the idea of assault infantry or jump troops, just bring Vanguards. You have so many options on how to kit them out from very cheap to very expensive. 

 

 

 

3) Librarians: I feel like playing with a lone wolf Librarian can seem okay, but most often I play against other psykers, and I feel like a guy who brought a knife to a gun fight. Feels like if you want to tap into the psychic phase, bring a conclave or go home. Has anyone had any success trying a Raven Guard conclave?

 

The psychic phase plays a big part in today's game (I would say unfortunately, bleh). Raven Guard are in a tough spot because we can't even bring a conclave with the TSF (which is understandable, I think.) And rolling with a single Librarian requires you to bring a CAD or go unbound if I'm not mistaken. I find that most of my games have a polar feel to them depending on what army is sitting across the table. You're going to be looking at a lot of Space Marine invisible deathstars, flying tyranids multiple wound monstrosities screaming off a handful of models each turn. Then you have the xenos scum Eldar and their shenanigans, ugh. Not to mention demon lists. It gets pretty crazy going up against phychic lists like that and bringing one Liby isn't going to do anything to counter them. I would do what you do, bring a single Liby rolling in Divination; park him next to some heavy weapons with AoS and call it a day. Use him as a force multiplier. 

 

 

 

5) Scout Bikes and Land Speeder Storms: I own neither of these (model wise, and I don’t really have something similar silhouette wise for proxy) but they feel very Raven Guard. Do you have experience running them? How successful are you with them? What do you use load-out wise?

 

Land Speeders Storms are freaking awesome in my opinion. They are cheap, can bring some fire power, and are super mobile. Plus, with all the new formations out their giving you reasons to bring scouts you have an excuse to actually field them! Like SanguinaryGuardsman mentioned, the jamming beacon is so useful in so many situations. There's no better counter to the STEEL RHEN  spam then some well deployed LSS.

 

 

 

6) Battle Demi Co vs Pinion Demi Co: I haven’t played Pinion at all yet, because frankly, I don’t have transports for my tacticals, and if im going to be outflanking them, I feel I need Scout bikes and Tacticals in Rhinos or Razorbacks. That being said I am in love with the Demi Co and its ObSec (even if I forget to use my Tactical Doctrine half the time, oh, and I never remember to use my Hurricane Bolters on my Centurions either!)

 

If you're going to run a BDC then you might as well just run the Pinion. It's going to cost you a couple more points for the scouts but you get some cool bonuses. You have the same "tax" with the 3 tacticals you are required to bring ideally in a dedicated transport. At least with the Pinion you can outflank those metal boxes with scout squads for a nice Fluffy Cheese Omelette. Oh Yesh. Give me morz. 

 

 

 

7) Shadow Strike Kill Team: Oh my lawd, is this the business or what? Its fluffy, its fun from a modelling perspective, and its damn good to boot. Less of a talking point but more of a “how do you equip your SSKT?” I would love to see how people outfit both their scouts and their Vanguard Vets.

 

This formation is the sauce, man. It makes jump troops actually semi viable and potentially competitive is some sense. I try to keep the cost of the squads at around 150 pts. Usually 4 power weapons and 2 storm shields per 5 veterans. It's best to not be super killy as you dont want to wipe the other squad out on your turn. I run the scouts in land speeder storms with shotguns or CCW w/ melta bombs. Flamers on the storms usually. Fun times, happy dance. 

[Race Bannon]

Welcome back to the Ravenspire!

 

In my humble opinion:

Pinion is more RG than not: Scout Support and Wayfinders rules support the fluff extremely well.  Don't get me wrong, ObSec is the bees knees to win a game, yet to play Raven Guard is to use resources not employed by most Chapters, to think outside the box and to achieve victory in ways unexpected.  The rules support that way of thinking through behavior.  Camp Sniper Scouts near the Devastators and very little on the other side of the table will hide from the guns.  Strike from the Shadows gives the units on the board extra defense.  Yet, Know When To Strike can get units on the board sooner than later.

 

Having said that, if you like tanks with troops, then consider some of the White Scar formations.  I'm not saying "play White Scars" though, to be sure.  I have not done this myself, but some of their formations look really good for Raven Guard.

 

On Tactical Marines: if you do not use the Pinion, another way is through the Skyhammer Orbital Strike Force.  This is also very fluffy and can get your units on the board Turn 1 via Drop Pods with heavy-hitting results (at least on paper).

 

Assault Marines: maybe garbage, yet I agree on the support points above.  Although VV do it better to be sure.  Still, having Winged Deliverance and KWTS is not bad at all, especially if you have to have a unit with the Pinion, which can be put into Reserves and brought on by Wayfinders as an alternate deployment method.  Do note that there is a thread devoted to the Bladewing Assault Brotherhood that uses Assault and VV squads.  Added to a Chaplain and the ASM is not so garbage (and you'll get to use most of those ASM models ;) ).

 

Librarians: never been a fan since 2nd edition.  There are more informed opinions than mine.  I still have the models because they look cool and its an option for me should I decide to use them.

 

Grenades: the FAQ makes sense to me.  But I am of the opinion that the FAQ is not official yet so they do not apply.  Needless to say, I talk with the opponent where they stand.  Side note: if you use the FAQ, then you can only have one Relic on the Captain.

 

LSS is the cat's meow - get one or two of four.  They are worth it, zomg they are worth it.

 

On your last point: I was in your shoes.  I started over (keeping metal characters and Scouts because they were first-run casts that had perfect details) and it was worth the investment.  I took a while for me though and I'm still rebuilding, yet feeling good about each new purchase.

 

^_^

[duz_]

Not to start a rules debate but the grenade FAQ isn't really a change or clarification its literally highlighting what is clearly written.

Semantics on throwing vs clamping, grenades vs bombs doesnt matter as the rules only describe to hit roles and weapon profiles.

 

I really like the new plastic kits. I understand your dilemma if the actually came out with plastic Mordians I don't know what I would do with the current ones.

Advantage of plastic is that you can really cram a lot into the new boxes. Metal models don't really work with the new cases due to their weight.

There's plenty of online retailers that can give you a good discount especially on top of the new combo box sets.

 

All valid points, I'd get some practice games in with a basic CAD to begin with and see what your meta is like. 7th especially now plays a lot different to 3rd.

 

Welcome back!

[ShinyRhino]

Welcome back. Now for some responses...

 

How do you figure Chaplains are worse now? They're actually better than they used to be. Zealot allows him and his unit to reroll to hit in the first round of any combat, not just when they charge like in previous Codexes. He can keep a unit in the fight for a long time with Fearlessness and those rerolls.

 

Tactical Squads are indeed boring objective campers, no way around it. Unless you run another chapter, then they can be game changers. The only real "tactic" for them is to take a ton of five man squads, give them Rhinos or Razors, and flood the field with ObSec units. Snooze fest, but undeniably effective in Maelstrom games.

 

Plasma is hardly ineffective. It has a wider threat profile than grav. You can kill an ork with it just as handily as a Terminator, has better range and mobility, and can penetrate up to AV12 without praying for multiple sixes. Gets Hot is an afterthought now that you get armor saves against it.

 

I feel you're evaluating Assault Marines in a single dimension: points per kill. I used to do this and get my backside handed to me. Then I realized that they're better used in small units that don't try to be Berserkers. Keep them out of sight grabbing objectives or lining up favorable assaults. Never deep strike them. Pick on anything with less than an MEQ stat line, or MEQs you outnumber 2:1. If you take them as part of a Demi Company, they're ObSec as well.

 

We don't use the grenade ruling at my FLGS, because it's a huge nerf to infantry and an unnecessary boost to vehicles, especially walkers. I think that your forced usage of it is a HUGE negative to your evaluation of ASM, who are dangerous transport killers when they can all use grenades in melee. Moreso when led by a Chaplain.

 

I too prefer the Demi Company to the Pinion because I play Maelstrom missions exclusively. ObSec is invaluable. In my opinion, the Ignores Cover and outflanking granted by the Pinion aren't worth it when you're fielding such basic units as Tactical, Assault, and Devestator Marines. Those don't pack enough killing power to make it worth the exchange. A four lascannon Dev squad with ignores cover is attractive, but when you add up the cost of the units required and the fact you can only shoot one unit a turn with it, it's less valuable. Plus any opponent worth his salt is going to prioritize killing those cannons or the nearby Scout units to remove the threat.

 

I learned from reading GreyCrow's posts and responses that Raven Guard win Maelstrom games in the deployment and movement phases. Place objectives where they can be claimed while remaining out of LOS, use terrain to minimize casualties based on a lack of enemy LOS, and pick your fights to your own advantage.

[dracpanzer]

A) Shadow Captain Korvydae

 

8) Lastly, and this is less tactical and more of a modelling question: My whole army is pewter, or plastic/pewter hybrid kits. While I have a handful of sculpts I am attached to, plastic as a whole is so much easier and better to work with (and lighter to haul around). I am giving serious consideration selling my entire army (sans 2-3 figures I have a personal attachment too), and then starting over from scratch and having new plastic kits on everything. If you were in my shoes, would you do the same?

Echo just about everything already put up in the thread. Not sure if Korvydae has been updated to the 7ed. If he has, great news because I love fielding him.

 

As far as your Pewter models, I was in the same position and found ebay to be very un-friendly to non plastic space marines. I ended up buying up bitz to update the 2ed/3ed metal models I had with arms, bolters, pouches and the like, then drilled out all the non beakie heads and replaced them with proper RG attire. I take it as a compliment when opponents pick one up and are surprised its metal.

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

@SanguinaryGuardsman

I think assault marines are only good if they are sufficiently threatening without being too expensive

This appears to be a recurring theme from most of the posts so far. Keep the unit small, its footprint small so its easy to hide, and prey on weak targets. I would like to see what most folks use as their load-out. 5 ASM, 2 x Flamers seems like the starting point, then what from there? Naked sergeant? Eviscerators? Your squad load-out with 2 x Flamer, and Sergeant wit PFist, and Chaplain with PFist attached still seems fairly costly (you admit it probably isn't optimal though, which is fine, but it seems like you have good success with it.

@ Mr Poe

re: Tacticals: Don't bring them!

I love your enthusiasm about my collection XD So if you had my collection of models, and you were resigned to not go Demi or Pinion to avoid tacticals, how would you build an 1850 list using Scouts and whatnot? I assume you would use a CAD (and perhaps Korvydae, because why NOT ObSec ASMs, but I would still like to see what you come up with as inspiration

re: Assault Marines: Assault marines are garbage now...just bring Vanguards.

I drew the exact same conclusion after my first couple games. While I think everyone's advice to run them small and cheap with flamers (and pref obsec) is good, I think that's more or less their strength.


@ Race Bannon

Pinion is more RG than not: Scout Support and Wayfinders rules support the fluff extremely well. [...] Camp Sniper Scouts near the Devastators and very little on the other side of the table will hide from the guns.

I couldn't agree more from a fluff stand point. And the 4 X Lascannon Devs with Scout Snipers for Scout Support rules seems automatic. My follow-up question stems from what then? How do you pair up tacticals and scouts for the rest of the detachment? Tacticals in Rhinos or Razorbacks alongside Scout Bikes? Tacticals in transports and Scouts on foot? Scouts in LSS? Tacticals AND Scouts on foot? What have you play tested, whats worked best? With looking into wanting to test Pinion, things can get really expensive really quick when considering 1) Tactical kits, 2) Transports (Razorback kit, LSS kit), 3)Scout Bikes, 4) New plastic scouts. Id love to hear more combinations used by you folks running Pinion to get a direction to run in to start with.

On Tactical Marines:...Skyhammer Orbital Strike Force.

Not to sound crass but, the Skyhammer OSF on paper seems...weak. While it looks and sounds awesome from a fluff perspective, I cant help but feel a Skyhammer Annihilation Force is just better in almost every regard. SOSF just seems like more of a fluff choice. Now if it gave ObSec in addition to what it gives, that would be dope. Have you run Skyhammer some? If so, what sort of success have you had with it? What's it good against so far? Whats it weak against? (I would assume strong against weaker non-meq opponents that are quite static, Horde armies, Guard, Orks, Tyranids, etc. But against high mobility armies it seems very outclassed to me. Would love to hear you elaborate more on this!

On your last point: I was in your shoes. I started over (keeping metal characters and Scouts because they were first-run casts that had perfect details) and it was worth the investment. I took a while for me though and I'm still rebuilding, yet feeling good about each new purchase.

I have been stalking the forums lately and one of the threads I follow is yours. It makes me happy to know you were in a similar place. Having that context will give me a new perspective next time I go to look at an update on your blog thread.

@ duz_

the grenade FAQ isn't really a change or clarification its literally highlighting what is clearly written

While I don't want to derail the thread, and I don't have a BRB in front of me, doesn't the grenade restriction in the rule book specifically state the restriction on one model pertain to the shooting phase? Aren't the different phase uses broken up in different paragraphs, iirc?

Metal models don't really work with the new cases due to their weight.

You can say that again, my current case is an old GW Backpack style padded slip that my old black plastic red square foam GW case slides into. And when I have it full of pewter like I do now, it is very heavy (to the point im afraid its going to ruin or break stitches in my beloved backpack that I won at a GT

@ ShinyRhino

How do you figure Chaplains are worse now?

Chaplains used to have a much more robust statline than they do now (much more in line with a Captain, but were dirt cheap). They got a weaker statline, got more expensive (respectively), and only got a minor buff in the way Zealot is worded now. While I agree with you the Zealot change is quite nice, they don't deliver the same sort of "Herohammer" punch they used to.

Plasma is hardly ineffective.

This is 100% valid. I have played some games with the Plasma, and its just as good as it was, it just feels like the game has always had an "arms race" so-to-speak, and while Plasma isn't bad per-se, it isn't the "new hotness". All your points are valid though in regards to what plasma is more effective against. Speaking of which, has anyone actually run a "gunslinger" VV squad with dual pistols to try a mobile firepower unit that's meant o harass heavily armored targets (with either plasma or grav). Seems impractical but REALLY fun

I feel you're evaluating Assault Marines in a single dimension: points per kill.

You're right, I am. I touched on it a bit up above, but like everyone has said, keep em small, keep em cheap, and get them dual flamers, and roll with them like that. Basically I need to build more flamer ASMs immediately This will allow me to maximize their damage against what they are strongest against: weak infantry/horde clearing.

I learned from reading GreyCrow's posts and responses that Raven Guard win Maelstrom games in the deployment and movement phases. Place objectives where they can be claimed while remaining out of LOS, use terrain to minimize casualties based on a lack of enemy LOS, and pick your fights to your own advantage.

Im absolutely in LOVE with how much thought goes into the start of the game for me as a Raven Guard player. Using the TSF rules, I have so much to consider, and I couldn't agree more with what you're saying here (and what GreyCow has said as well). On a semi-related side note, what does everyone shoot for for Warlord traits as RG? Use RG traits? Tactical? Strategic? etc.

Quotes about Battle V Pinion
Mr.Poe "If you're going to run a BDC then you might as well just run the Pinion."
Race Bannon "Pinion is more RG than not"
ShinyRhino "I too prefer the Demi Company to the Pinion because I play Maelstrom missions exclusively"

It's quite obvious that the community's opinion on Pinion v Battle is quite polarizing. I personally love Maelstrom games, and as a result I have found ObSec to be invaluable in my games thus far (My main sparring opponent is a Necron/SM/Grey Knight player so his units can be very difficult to dislodge from objectives, and ObSec has scored me a ton of points. For those of you that play Pinion, I would love to hear how you feel it works in Maelstrom (or ITC) games. Just to reiterate what ShinyRhino said again:

Raven Guard win Maelstrom games in the deployment and movement phases. Place objectives where they can be claimed while remaining out of LOS, use terrain to minimize casualties based on a lack of enemy LOS, and pick your fights to your own advantage.

This seems to play into what everyone is saying about the pinion, given the flexibility and mobility you gain from Pinion (and iirc, GreyCow is a huge advocate of Pinion, though I would love to hear him elaborate on this particular subject.

SG: "The coolest thing ever is the land speeder storm."
Mr Poe "Land Speeders Storms are freaking awesome in my opinion"
Race Bannon "LSS is the cat's meow - get one or two of four. They are worth it, zomg they are worth it"

It always feels great when you ask the community something and everyone says the same thing I already have one new LSS purchased, and I will look into getting more so I can start testing them. My initial inkling is to go with Multi-Melta on them, but what does everyone else run?

edit: I tried to post this massive reply on Friday, then the server went down to the DDOS. Thankfully I saved it in a notepad, hopefully my formatting isn't broken to bits.

[ShinyRhino]

I run my ASM with two Flamers and Lightning Claw on the Veteran Sergeant. Six men, for ablative wounds.

 

As for warlord traits, it depends on what I'm playing. At monthly tourneys at the FLGS, I always use Tactical Traits the first round. If I'm not stomped flat after that round, I'll keep with Tactical because they make a huge difference to maelstrom games. Rerolling d3 point rolls is powerful, as is the one where you get double points for having your Warlord grabbing numbered objective cards.

But once I'm out of the running for the day, I roll on Raven Guard traits because they're fun, or Strategic because they make the game interesting.

[Submarine]

On the Pinion. If you take 5 units of scout bikers with astartes grenade launchers, thats a whole 6x str6 ignores cover hits when in rapid fire range per biker squad. The sergeants presumably can give ignore cover to their own units.

 

It allows you to field more biker scouts and not eat up fast attack slots.

 

Just an idea.

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

dracpanzer wrote:

Echo just about everything already put up in the thread. Not sure if Korvydae has been updated to the 7ed. If he has, great news because I love fielding him.

Isn't IA8:Raid on K-N still legal even though it hasn't been updated with a 2nd ED version? I looked over the Korvydae rules yesterday (in preparation for the game) and I see nothing wrong with them. If he isn't legal, then whoops :|

ShinyRhino wrote:

As for warlord traits, it depends on what I'm playing....

Makes sense. When I first came back and started playing (a little over a month ago), I was rolling in RG traits all the time, if for no other reason than to draw from the cards included with the Tactical Objective deck. Now that I have got some games under my belt, I find myself going back and forth. I think its strategic that gives infiltrate to some units, which is pretty strong, but Tactical (especially the ones you mentioned) seems very strong. Would really like to know what everyone's "Go-To" trait table to roll on is, and specifically what trait they are hoping to get most of the time.

Submarine wrote:

On the Pinion. If you take 5 units of scout bikers with astartes grenade launchers, thats a whole 6x str6 ignores cover hits when in rapid fire range per biker squad. The sergeants presumably can give ignore cover to their own units.

Does that even work? Seems pretty strong especially against skimmers. Obviously RAW this doesn't work given the wording of Scout Sergeant/Scout Bike Sergeant dilemma, but I think most people are okay with RAI making sense here. I unfortunately don't have a Angels of Death book in front of me at work, but I thought the Scout Support rule had something along the lines of "another" unit so he couldn't buff his own unit. Seems good if so.

Not sure if I should make a new thread or not for some of these related thoughts, but I had a game this weekend and I wanted to do a short write-up about it to hopefully generate some conversation/criticism. Below were our lists used (rough outlines from memory anyway)

My list:

Talon Strike Force

Battle Demi-Co

HQ: Murderwings (Raven's Fury, Swiftstrike + Murder, MB, Auspex)

Elite: Dreadnaught - MM, HF, Drop Pod

Fast Attack: 3 x Bike (2 x Grav-Guns)

Heavy Support: 3 x Centurions (Grav-Cannons, Omniscope)

Troops: 3 x Tactical (5-Man, Plasma Gun in each)

Shadow-Strike Kill-Team

5 Scouts (Bolters)

5 Scouts (Bolters)

6 Vanguard Veterans (3 x Dual LC, 3 x PF/SS, MB on Sergeant)

Raven Guard CAD

HQ:

Shadow Captain Korvydae

ML2 Librarian (Armor of Shadows, BP, Force Axe, Auspex) - Goes with Centurions in Drop Pod

Troops:

6 x Scouts (Snipers, Camo Cloaks)

5 x ASM (2 x Flamer, bare bones)

5 x ASM (2 x Flamer, bare bones)

Fast Attack:

Drop Pod (For the Centurions)

My opponent:

Necron Decurion:

Lord w/ Gauntlet of Conflag

10 Warriors (Ghost Ark)

10 Warriors (Ghost Ark)

5 Immortals in Scythe (Warlord goes here)

Some formation (can't recall name)

Triarch Stalker

7 Praetorians

8 Praetorians

Canoptek Harvest:

1 Tomb Spyder

3 Scarabs

8 Wraiths

I think that's everything. Hopefully I didn't forget anything.

Battle Start - Hidden Tactical Cards mission (can't recall name, draw up to 3, don't show to opponent). We both rolled on Tactical traits, he got he good one (warlord scores double or 1 bonus when he scores Control X cards), I got draw one bonus card at start of game. Night fighting, Dawn of War deployment. We each have 2 objective markers in our deployment zones, with the 2 remaining just being out of deployment zones and closer to mid field, very standard/boring. I win roll off to deploy/go first. I deploy my ASMs in the center field behind LOS blocking terrain, Korvydae attached to one, Murderwings attached to the other. One tactical squad on/near each objective. He deploys his warriors/stalker in the center, Wraith formation on his left flank, both units of Praetorians on the right flank.

I infiltrate the SSKT scouts on the right flank right in front of the praetorians. My turn one I drop my centurions in cover in his deployment zone right near one squad of praetorians, and my VVs drop in next to the other. I focus most of my fire on the two units of praetorians, whittling them down, the centurions kill 3 of 8, and the rest of my armor kills 2 of the 7 man squad. Vets charge the 5 remaining, lose one to overwatch, and proceed to roll awful and get my ass handed to me. He causes like 6 AP2 wounds on 10 attacks, and I don't make storm shield saves for crap. One LC guy lives (the sergeant), and I don't manage to kill any of his guys. I choose to run, he doesn't catch me. On his turn he focuses on my centurions, killing two, assaulting the remainder, and rolling poorly in h2h, and I still take a wound and lose, to which I choose to fail my leadership check and run. My turn dreadnaught shows up, dropping on the same crippled flank. He torches one Ark and blows it up, killing 3 warriors inside. Both of my ASM squads split up and both Korvydae and Murderwings split off and go to work cleaning up the praetorians and going after the other transport. Game slows down after this and turns into me scoring tons of maelstrom points, and him trying to table me. Typical type of outcome for these two armies. Here are some things of note:

First game trying the highly praised 3 x Biker Squad with 2 x Grav Gun. I ran them up my left flank turn one, going over runs, took 3 dangerous terrain checks, rolled three ones, rolled three armor saves, rolled 2 2s, and one success, both grav guns died, sergeant lived (of course). What a great first outing for these gents (at least it was good for a laugh)

My Vanguard Vets did awfully, and I rolled awfully. On paper they are a pretty good matchup vs Praetorians (especially when getting the charge), but my rolling was abysmal.

Centurions as usual did excellent heavy lifting. I got prescience off every turn, and in later turns my librarian was getting off Precognition and Force, which worked wonders to consistently kill 2-3 models a turn in bogged down hand to hand (I think he killed something like 4-5 praetorians, 3-4 warriors, and at least 3 wraiths over the course of the game, what a boss)

My centurions always get off a great alpha strike, get tied up in hand to hand, lose the combat, and I volunteer to fail my morale check (per the TSF rules), get away, and then slowly get whittled down/re-assaulted over the course of the game. Even when they only blow up one target (on the turn they land) my opponent has to commit so much to kill them that they are a focal point of the game.

Scouts did nothing (as usual) other than harass/be fodder

My 2 min squads of ASM did very well. They worked great as a cheap bodyguard for Murderwings/Korvydae, and their ObSec from Korvydae scored me 3-4 points over the course of the game. The dual flamers worked great at cooking warriors both on and off the transports

Korvydae did well, blowing up an Ark with his hammer and killing a fair chunk of warriors. Hit and Run came into play once.

Murderwings was an absolute f'ing boss. He single handedly restored my assault on the right flank that the VVs had failed at. I think his kill count at the end of the game was something like 7-8 Praetorians (from two squads), 8-10 warriors, and 2-3 wraiths (before he finally succumbed to his wounds). The raw utility and damage output of this guy for less points than Shrike is nuts, and the Auspex was very solid point for point. Multiple times he waded into enemies that didn't have a good chance of stopping him. MVP

Dreadnaught was great value. He blew up one Ark, torched half a dozen warriors, and counter-assaulted the Tomb Spyder that was trying to eat my drop pod holding an objective, and killed him.

Game ended with a score of something like 26-4. At game end (ended turn 5), I had 1 VV left, My librarian, one unit of 5 bolter scouts, one unit of 3 bolter scouts, 5 of my sniper scouts, my dreadnaught, 1 ASM left, and both drop pods. My opponent had his Night Scythe, about half his wraiths, and a handful of warriors. He was hoping the game would continue to give him sufficient turns to have his Wraiths go for hail-mary multi-assaults to try to wipe me off the board and go for a tabling.

Also on the turn I drew Kingslayer, my sniper scouts fired into his unit with his warlord. Warlord was out front, I did 4 wounds, he choose not to LOS them, failed 2 armor saves, and failed both reanimates. Korvydae charged the unit and did enough wounds to have them take a morale check, which they failed, and I overran him, easy D3 + 1 points

Most of our games involve me picking a flank and going after a hard hitting and fast unit (Wraiths or Praetorians). This game I chose to focus everything on praetorians and ignore the wraiths (typically its the reverse). I found this game much easier ignoring the wraiths and redploying my whole army to the flank opposite them. Praetorians while nasty aren't as durable and were easier to kill in the end. I just let the wraiths roll up my flank and chomp tactical marines.

[Race Bannon]

Korvydae should work. I'd be surprised if the Scout Sgt spots for his own unit That could be put in the OR though for further discussion.

[ShinyRhino]

Scout Biker Sergeants cannot spot, and Scout Sergeants cannot spot for their own unit. It must be "another unit from this Formation."

[Mr. Poe]

I love your enthusiasm about my collection XD So if you had my collection of models, and you were resigned to not go Demi or Pinion to avoid tacticals, how would you build an 1850 list using Scouts and whatnot? I assume you would use a CAD (and perhaps Korvydae, because why NOT ObSec ASMs, but I would still like to see what you come up with as inspiration

I think it's quite easy to throw together lists that are Raven Guard "fluffy" now-a-days with all the new formations available. GW did a good job with the direction they took the Ravens I think.

Personally, I would probably run a 10th Company Task Force to bring all your awesome scouts. Give them all camo cloaks and infiltrate them aggressively onto objectives and good cover positions. Say:

10th CTF (373pts)

2 x 5 Scouts w/ snipers and cloaks (140pts)

2 x 5 Scouts w/ missile launchers and cloaks (160pts)

1 x 5 Scouts w/ heavy bolter and cloaks (73pts)

That's 375 points for 25 models with a great cover save and precision shots on turn 1...not to shabby at all.

For those assault marines, you can run a CAD with Korvydae which will let you bring the assault squads as troops or an alternative take would be to field the Bladewing Assault Brotherhood. Now, I'm personally not a huge fan of this formation (SSKT is just too good) but...It's about as fluffy as they come and it will let you bring a captain and re-roll scatter for the entire formation. So lets say:

BAB (1035pts)

4 x 10 Assault Marines w/ dual flamers and MB (740pts)

1 x Captain with Fancy Armour and S&M (145pts)

1 x 5 Vanguards with dealers choice of gear (150pts)

That leaves you with about 450 points to play with. You can reduce the size of the BAB to work in a CAD with Korvydae. That way you can bring in the Whirlwind and Dreadnought you have for some heavy support.

This would be a pretty fun list to play. Let the scouts lay down cover fire while your assault marines get into close combat. You have a lot of bodies that can move fast and threaten vehicles and MEQ's alike. It's not going to be the most competitive list in the world but I think if you're playing a friendly game with a buddy, some variation of this will be fun. Looking at that Necron list, the cheese is being kept to minimum levels!

All that being said. You can lower the body count and increase the quality by adding some storms to your scout force. I've been looking into some of the Space Mongols White Scar formations, such as the Speartip Strike and the Stormbringer, and ways they can be implemented into our Raven Guard list. Some food for thought there.

[Race Bannon]

Nice thinking out the box!

[Submarine]

Scout Biker Sergeants cannot spot, and Scout Sergeants cannot spot for their own unit. It must be "another unit from this Formation."

Their unit is in that formation. What it means is they can't spot for a unit not in the formation. But anyway it isn't an insurmountable problem. They will spot for each others bike units.

[Race Bannon]

"Another" unit suggests not their own.

[Submarine]

You can read it that way, and that is fine, but you can still have them spotting for other bike units. Thats reasonably tasty.

[Knight of the Raven]

I have no advice to give when it comes to tactics, but I wanted to comment on this:

First game trying the highly praised 3 x Biker Squad with 2 x Grav Gun. I ran them up my left flank turn one, going over runs, took 3 dangerous terrain checks, rolled three ones, rolled three armor saves, rolled 2 2s, and one success, both grav guns died, sergeant lived (of course). What a great first outing for these gents (at least it was good for a laugh)

It seems your bikers and mine trained under the same sergeant.

Speaking of them, if you can, I suggest magnetizing them so you can run any duo of special weapons you like. With the current plastics, magnetizing the arms' wrist and the weapons' hands is the easiest route.

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

Mr.Poe wrote:

10th CTF (373pts)

2 x 5 Scouts w/ snipers and cloaks (140pts)

2 x 5 Scouts w/ missile launchers and cloaks (160pts)

1 x 5 Scouts w/ heavy bolter and cloaks (73pts)

That's 375 points for 25 models with a great cover save and precision shots on turn 1...not to shabby at all.

You know now that I am looking at it written out, that really does seem quite cost effective from a bodies/points perspective. That being said, they are just scouts. Also, am I correct in thinking that the Precision Shots formation rule basically is lost on Sniper Scouts because they have that all the time?

Mr.Poe wrote:

..an alternative take would be to field the Bladewing Assault Brotherhood...

It just seems so bad on paper, but I keep seeing it suggested, so maybe ill give it a shot this weekend just for kicks. If I do run it, I will probably still run a SSKT and probably a CAD, and just load the board up with ASMs, VVs, and Scouts. Itll be an exscuse to field my old Whirlwind thats covered in dust

Mr.Poe wrote:

That leaves you with about 450 points to play with.

Just enough room for a small SSKT, seems good :thumbsup:

Mr.Poe wrote:

All that being said. You can lower the body count and increase the quality by adding some storms to your scout force.

Yea, I am definitely feeling a bit overwhelmed on where to start with getting my army "modernized" if you will, but Land Speeder Storms are definitely at the top of the list, thats for sure!

ShinyRhino, Race Bannon, & Submarine wrote:

Scout Bikes, Scouts, and Scout Support rules debate

I agree with the "Another" sentiment. Also, do any of you play your Scout Bike Sergeants as being able to spot? There hasnt been an Angels of Death FAQ yet that says one way or another right? It sure seems like an oversight to have Scout Bikers in the formation be unable to provide that benefit. This seems like (to me anyway) a very clear case of RAW vs RAI.

Knight of the Raven wrote:

It seems your bikers and mine trained under the same sergeant.

Oh, I see you too have bikers that should have never been promoted to the Assault Company, and would be best suited for Sentry Duty (ON FOOT)

Good tip on the magnets, none of my current army is magnetized currently, magnetizing had JUST started becoming a thing when I quit, and my other SM army had my vehicles magnetized, so I am somewhat familiar with it. (Man, when I write out statements like that I feel very old with respect to the game, good grief)

[Knight of the Raven]

Oh, I see you too have bikers that should have never been promoted to the Assault Company, and would be best suited for Sentry Duty (ON FOOT)

And even then only as alarm givers because they couldn't hit the moon if they stood on it and aimed down.

Good tip on the magnets, none of my current army is magnetized currently, magnetizing had JUST started becoming a thing when I quit, and my other SM army had my vehicles magnetized, so I am somewhat familiar with it. (Man, when I write out statements like that I feel very old with respect to the game, good grief)

I used 2mm x 1mm magnets for my bikers, if that helps. 3mm x 1mm if you want to magnetize the backpacks and jump packs of your assault marines or officers.

Since magnetization requires drilling, it's obviously easier with plastic and resin models, if that can help you with your dilemma about your metal army.

[ShinyRhino]

If you want a fluffy reason the Scout Biker Sergeants cannot spot, consider that it's tough to spot while zipping around on your bike, jinking and whatnot.

[Mr. Poe]

You know now that I am looking at it written out, that really does seem quite cost effective from a bodies/points perspective. That being said, they are just scouts. Also, am I correct in thinking that the Precision Shots formation rule basically is lost on Sniper Scouts because they have that all the time?

They are definitely "just scouts" and should be treated as such of course. I like to think of it this way, essentially scouts are just regular space marines with 4+ saves and a more limited arsenal. Now, Raven Guard benefit from the "Strike from the Shadows" chapter tactic which gives them Shrouding (+2 to cover save) on turn 1 if they do not begin the game in a transport and gives them a better chance of rolling Night Fighting. What does that all mean? You benefit greatly for deploying your scouts on turn 1. With camo cloaks (which I think are a requirement) and shrouded you are at a 4+ cover save out in the open. The second you deploy in ANY cover you jump to a 2+ cover save on turn 1. If you roll night fighting you have a 3+ out in the open! Cha-ching! As for the fire power, on the surface, you are weaker than your older brothers; you do not have access to all the grav and las and plasma...no big deal. You do get bolters, you do get heavy bolters, you do get missile launches, you get get snipers. You get options. And they are cheap. I don't have the numbers in front of me now but if you take a look at it, body for body and point for point scouts are not THAT much worse than regular marines. They just don't excel in the same way and require more finesse that regular marines, but they are viable for sure.

Your cover saves are high on turn one but after you lose shrouded you obviously have to be more careful. Keep in cover, you have 3+ in ruins which is great. Raven Guard lists without TSF usually hit hard on turn 2 with SSKT and other deep striking. This should take the attention away from your scouts, JUST AS PLANNED. Your strategic genius makes Creed shiver; success .

As for the precision shot rule, you are correct, your snipers already have it so it would go wasted. But you still get it on the bolters and what not. It's not game breaking but with 25+ scouts taking shots, you're mathematically bound to take advantage of it. Maybe get lucky and take out a Sergent or special weapon or what have you.

All this again has to be taken in context. Scouts are, in fact, just scouts. They cannot be the only force you army has to offer. You need to support them with assault troops (guy, you have like 40+ ) and some more high strength options. You still need to cover your bases: MEQ, TEQ, MC, AV14 and flying. I'm no power gamer, most of my games are against friendly players with friendly lists. Chances are a "fluffy" list, with lots of cool scouts and assault marines, cannot cover all the bases. So it really comes down to you, the player, as to how you want to put together YOUR army. The list I bring to most of my games (1500 pts.) is a Shadow Force + Shadow Strike. It's not super competitive, it's not super strong. But I enjoy playing it and it doesn't roll over easy. Personally, I enjoy taking a list that I know is not the best possible list and going up against "better" more optimized list, but that's just me.

[Claws and Effect]

 

Scout Biker Sergeants cannot spot, and Scout Sergeants cannot spot for their own unit. It must be "another unit from this Formation."

Their unit is in that formation. What it means is they can't spot for a unit not in the formation. But anyway it isn't an insurmountable problem. They will spot for each others bike units.

 

 

That doesn't solve the problem that, RAW, Scout Biker Sergeants cannot spot at all. Only Scout Sergeants can.

[Despoiler]

I had the same problem, I swapped my 3 scout bikes squads for LSS with MM.