Shadow Captain Vyper Posted December 1, 2016 Author Share Posted December 1, 2016 Wrote this whole damn post out, went to post, got timed out of my login, lost it all. Sonofabitch Inquisitor Alcyon wrote: That logic is fascinating, ltvyper, I totally agree with regards to army size and percentage. You could even think about what types of targets you expect your enemy to have, and what kinds of points costs you are aiming to destroy using your VVs of whatever cost themselves. Someone finds my ideas fascinating . Ever since I wrote that post yesterday I have been tossing around that concept of mathematical relationships between units and their respective army as a whole (against what their expectations are). I am thinking the same concept can be applied to many "Critical Units" (units that most Raven Guard armies have in common, units that thematically we all choose and rely on - for the most part). Using ratios as a means to give an accurate comparison between two different players results can give great context for what is working and what isn't, and why. Playing Raven Guard has always made me feel like theory crafting about the army is much more rewarding than other chapters. Most Space Marine Chapters apply a brute force style approach to tactics, and I have always found Raven Guard tactics to rely on the more abstract. Even more brute choices (Centurions, VVs, and Murderwings to use my list as an example), while they can deliver a hammerblow offense just like their cousins, when playing Raven Guard I find we require more thought in the decision making process so as to not be punished after committing to a choice. A Raven Guard player needs to be able and equipped to put out raw aggression, but at the same time retain a tactical flexibility not found in most other Chapters. Basically what I am saying is that I have always felt that Raven Guard as a whole is one of the hardest Space Marine Chapters to play, being the most rewarding with risks, but at the same time the most punishing with mistakes. We are frequently the most fragile on the tabletop when compared holistically to our brothers-in-arms. This tool set creates a need (at least from my humble perspective) to be constantly engaged with the concept of assess/revise/re-establish. Mr.Poe wrote: You guys are making me want to run on ebay and buy up all the available vanguards Do eeet! You have no idea how happy I am that I started this thread before jumping into building my new models I have acquired over the last few weeks to update my army. I had purchased prior one VV box, and Shadow Force Solaq. Then over Black Friday I got another VV box, and a copy of Death Masque (all for 35% off). Pretty hyped to have 4 VV kits at home not even opened! Race Bannon wrote: Support your local store owner Always try to if I can Speaking of which, my FLGS only offers 10% to customers on GW, and only if they pre-order and pre-pay. When you factor in tax, you just barely break even with retail. By comparison, WarStore and FrontlineGaming frequently you can get 25%, always 20%, no tax, and a small shipping charge (usually $6-$8). Do you guys find that your FLGS offers a discount that can at least come close to competing with an online retailer? Would love to hear what you get deals-wise! Realityburn wrote: I was actually thinking the 50-man SSKT, and a CAD with a Librarian on a bike and 2 min strength bike squads. Then a lone captain in a Strike Force Command formation for my warlord, assuming I have the points for it. Inquisitor Alcyon wrote: Re: the 30 VVs + 20 Scouts army, an SSKT + Stormbringer Squadron could be a cool setup; that'd give you regular LS to run with Multi-meltas for A/T, and up to three Scout Squads with LSS per formation, which have obsec and can disembark after the LSS moves 12". That said, it's a lot of extra points for those; you could instead run a CAD with Telion or a Techmarine, and just infiltrate the scouts onto objectives. Your massive VV force should be engaging the OpFor and your 50pt Scout Squads can just camp out without needing to be mobile. I wonder how many SSKTs you could fit into 1850pts... Both of these sound like great starting points. I would love to see what you both come up specifically for a list (versus what I have in my mind right now). On an semi-related side note, is anyone else pissed like me at how awesome Telion is, but he's UM CT? He fits so well into RG. Id love to have him in my army with a unit of 3 Thunderfire Cannons Speaking of lists, here is my revised list taking into account the VV ratios mentioned above: RavenTheory (1848 Points) Talon Strike Force Battle Demi Company (893 Points) Bike Squad x 2 Grav Gun, MB on Sergeant (98 Points) Dreadnought w/ MM PFist & Heavy Flamer in Drop Pod (145 Points) Centurion Devastators (Grav Cannon + Amp, Omniscop on Sgt) (250 Points) Tactical Squad w/ Heavy Bolter (80 Points) Tactical Squad w/ Heavy Bolter (80 Points) Tactical Squad w/ Heavy Bolter (80 Points) Captain Murderwings (SS&M, Artificer Armor, Jump Pack) (160 Points) Shadow Strike Kill-Team (650 Points) Scout Squad 5 x Bolters (55 Points) Scout Squad 5 x Bolters (55 Points) Vanguard Veteran Squad (BP&SS+MB, BP&SS, 3 x PF&LC) (180 Points) Vanguard Veteran Squad (BP&SS+MB, BP&SS, 3 x PF&LC) (180 Points) Vanguard Veteran Squad (BP&SS+MB, BP&SS, 3 x PF&LC) (180 Points) Combined Arms Detachment (305 Points) Librarian (Armor of Shadows, Force Axe, Auspex) (130 Points) Scout Squad (5 X Sniper Rifles, Camo Cloaks) (70 Points) Scout Squad (5 X Sniper Rifles, Camo Cloaks) (70 Points) Drop Pod (35 Points) This list swaps out Korvydae and the 2 ASM units for one more of scouts in the CAD, double the VVs, and upping Murderwings to Artificer Armor (A great investment I feel, it will help him wade through enemy infantry much longer). Thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alcyon Posted December 1, 2016 Share Posted December 1, 2016 my FLGS only offers 10% to customers on GW, and only if they pre-order and pre-pay. When you factor in tax, you just barely break even with retail. By comparison, WarStore and FrontlineGaming frequently you can get 25%, always 20%, no tax, and a small shipping charge (usually $6-$8). Do you guys find that your FLGS offers a discount that can at least come close to competing with an online retailer? Would love to hear what you get deals-wise! I usually consider that 20-25% + tax markup - shipping to be the price of playing at the store for free. Re: your list, I like how much you've used the mandatory choices in the Battle Demi-Co, finding a middle ground between sinking tons of points into them and treating them as a minimum price tax. If only the Tactical Squads could Infiltrate onto objectives. Do you usually have success running Murderwings all by his lonesome, or does he get shot up a lot? If he's not integral to the army you could likely make him a Cataphractii Captain and run regular Devastators instead, saves you a whopping 597 (though I didn't include all the Meltabombs.) You could buy almost a whole second SSKT with those points, or buff out those Tactical + Devastator Squads rather than buy 140 pts worth of sniper scouts and a second HQ. +++ Talon Strike Force with 3 VVs for ltvyper (Warhammer 40,000 7th Edition v2012) (1523pts) +++ ++ SM RG Talon Strike Force (Space Marines: Codex v2008) (1523pts) ++ + Core (843pts) + ····Formation: Battle Demi-Company (843pts) ······Bike Squad ········Biker (Special Weapon) [Grav-gun] ········Biker (Special Weapon) [Grav-gun] ········Biker Sergeant [bolt Pistol] ······Captain ········Captain ··········Terminator Armour [Cataphractii Terminator Armour, Power Weapon (Sword), Storm Bolter] ······Devestator Squad ········Drop Pod [storm Bolter] ········Space Marine (Heavy Weapon) [Grav-Cannon and Grav-Amp] ········Space Marine (Heavy Weapon) [Grav-Cannon and Grav-Amp] ········Space Marine (Heavy Weapon) [Grav-Cannon and Grav-Amp] ········Space Marine (Heavy Weapon) [Grav-Cannon and Grav-Amp] ········Space Marine Sergeant [bolt Pistol, Boltgun] ······Dreadnoughts ········Dreadnought [Multi-Melta, Powerfist w/ Built-in Heavy Flamer] ········Drop Pod [storm Bolter] ······Tactical Squad ········Space Marine [boltgun] ········Space Marine [boltgun] ········Space Marine [boltgun] ········Space Marine (Heavy Weapon) [Heavy Bolter] ········Space Marine Sergeant [bolt Pistol, Boltgun] ······Tactical Squad ········Space Marine [boltgun] ········Space Marine [boltgun] ········Space Marine [boltgun] ········Space Marine (Heavy Weapon) [Heavy Bolter] ········Space Marine Sergeant [bolt Pistol, Boltgun] ······Tactical Squad ········Space Marine [boltgun] ········Space Marine [boltgun] ········Space Marine [boltgun] ········Space Marine (Heavy Weapon) [Heavy Bolter] ········Space Marine Sergeant [bolt Pistol, Boltgun] + Auxiliary (680pts) + ····Formation: Shadowstrike Kill Team (680pts) ······Scout Squad ········Scout [boltgun] ········Scout [boltgun] ········Scout [boltgun] ········Scout [boltgun] ········Scout Sergeant [bolt Pistol, Boltgun] ······Scout Squad ········Scout [boltgun] ········Scout [boltgun] ········Scout [boltgun] ········Scout [boltgun] ········Scout Sergeant [bolt Pistol, Boltgun] ······Vanguard Veteran Squad [Jump pack] ········Veteran [bolt Pistol, Storm Shield] ········Veteran [bolt Pistol, Storm Shield] ········Veteran [Lightning Claw, Power Fist] ········Veteran [Lightning Claw, Power Fist] ········Veteran Sergeant [Lightning Claw, Power Fist] ······Vanguard Veteran Squad [Jump pack] ········Veteran [bolt Pistol, Storm Shield] ········Veteran [bolt Pistol, Storm Shield] ········Veteran [Lightning Claw, Power Fist] ········Veteran [Lightning Claw, Power Fist] ········Veteran Sergeant [Lightning Claw, Power Fist] ······Vanguard Veteran Squad [Jump pack] ········Veteran [bolt Pistol, Storm Shield] ········Veteran [bolt Pistol, Storm Shield] ········Veteran [Lightning Claw, Power Fist] ········Veteran [Lightning Claw, Power Fist] ········Veteran Sergeant [Lightning Claw, Power Fist] Created with BattleScribe (http://www.battlescribe.net) My personal list at the moment involves a Skyhammer Annhiliation Force, Speartip Strike (for Scout Bikers + Locator Beacons) and a Raptor Wing, because there are some units I'd rather my 1 wound 3+ save VVs not be in CC with, but a thought experiment maximizing VVs is something I've posted on here before ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow Captain Vyper Posted December 2, 2016 Author Share Posted December 2, 2016 Inquisitor Alcyon wrote: re: your list, I like how much you've used the mandatory choices in the Battle Demi-Co, finding a middle ground between sinking tons of points into them and treating them as a minimum price tax. If only the Tactical Squads could Infiltrate onto objectives. Thanks, I have tried running them a lot of different ways on foot, because I really am struggling with putting them in transports and getting zero return on our CT. When I first started running them after coming back to the game, the Heavy Bolter was my best showing with them, so I reverted back to that for efficiency. (Which btw, it really should be 5 Points in a Tac squad, imo. Don't even get me started on Heavy Weapon point costs in tactical squads, it would be nice if everything could get re-priced to reflect against the cost of the Grav-Cannon). On the subject of Infiltrate, I do roll on the Strategic table for my Warlord trait and have infiltrated my Tacticals more than once. That being said it isn't reliable at all, but fluffy none the less. Inquisitor Alcyon wrote: Do you usually have success running Murderwings all by his lonesome, or does he get shot up a lot? Typically Murderwings starts the game attached to something (in previous versions of the list it was an ASM squad). Then on my first turn he always breaks off and jumps midfield behind line of sight blocking terrain. I find that its pretty easy to hide one model on a 28mm Base (Im using my old Shrike model as a standin for now). Knowing I cut the ASM squads, my plan was to just have him start attached to a Tac squad on turn one to give him a "launching off" point so he has some ablative wounds. It's been very successful, and he wracks up a massive kill count most games (easily earning 2-3 times his points over. I did play one game against guard where he got insta-death'd on turn T2 though Inquisitor Alcyon wrote: If he's not integral to the army you could likely make him a Cataphractii Captain and run regular Devastators instead, saves you a whopping 597 (though I didn't include all the Meltabombs.) You could buy almost a whole second SSKT with those points, or buff out those Tactical + Devastator Squads rather than buy 140 pts worth of sniper scouts and a second HQ. While I do feel he is integral, I have considered this quite a lot already actually. The whole CAD thing started with a desire to get into the new (well, new for me) psychic phase and test out these "imbalanced" psychic powers. I feel like right now my Librarian is about a 50/50 return on investment (and by investment standards that is BAD). That being said, when he does deliver, he makes the unit feel OP. Frequently swapping between prescience/shriek/invisibility across games, all of those being cast from my opponents deployment zone either aggressively or buffing the Centurions make them play like Gods. Also Armor of Shadows buffs on Centurions (I frequently drop them in area terrain in my opponents deployment zone right on an objective) has been excellent as well. Basically it leaves my opponent in most situations with one solution: Tar Pit them. With all that on the table though, Devastators with Gravs can accomplish most of the same things. They output more shots, and in some ways are more durable if I give The Shield Eternal to the captain and have him tank wounds out front (Can I do that now with the FAQ?, have one HQ with a RG relic, and a different one with a C:SM Relic?). I guess the next most efficient way to get a Librarian would be a Conclave. Maybe I should consider that instead. I don't see how you get 597 points saved. When I drop the CAD/Murderwings/Centurions, and add Cataphractii Captain and Grav Devastators, I get a new total of 1503, which is 345 Points saved (305 for the CAD, 5 Points Difference on the Devs, and 40 Points difference on the Captains). Am I missing something? Given, its still a sizeable chunk of points for another unit. For 345 I could buy a 4th VV squad with the same loadout, drop pods on all the tacticals, swap the Tacticals to Melta/Combi-Melta, and still add a couple ablative wounds to the devs. Seemsgood Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alcyon Posted December 2, 2016 Share Posted December 2, 2016 I dunno where I got that huge pts cost either - even my own list above is only 327 points off. Unfortunately you can't run 4 VV squads in the SSKT, it's a max of 3 - maybe this is what you meant but you could do a 10-man and just Combat Squad them, I think they can deep strike separately if you do that. I was thinking Conclave too, it's just a shame there's no way to fit more than one of them in with a Grav Dev or Centurion pod. Delivery is really the key Conclave issue I feel, bikes are a good workaround and you can run 4 Grav-guns in a Command Squad but it's quite pricey (and IH do it better with FNP.) Maybe just running them on bikes in a regular Bike Squad with 2 Grav would be fine, or even in a Scout Biker Squad so VVs could DS on them for combat support. I wonder if you could run the fluffier jump packs on them and deep strike them in a regular Assault Squad, or even as individual models; dunno how survivable that'd be, you'd have to try and run into cover in the shooting phase, or start them on the board and move up like Murderwings. On the other hand, if you ran a Pinion you could Outflank your Devastators with the Conclave & Cataphractii Captain to get them into range, that might do it, could also run a 10-man Dev squad for ablative wounds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow Captain Vyper Posted December 5, 2016 Author Share Posted December 5, 2016 Inquisitor Alcyon wrote: I dunno where I got that huge pts cost either - even my own list above is only 327 points off. huh.png Unfortunately you can't run 4 VV squads in the SSKT, it's a max of 3 - maybe this is what you meant but you could do a 10-man and just Combat Squad them, I think they can deep strike separately if you do that. Yea, my plan was to run just one unit of 10 and combat squad them. No issues there. Inquisitor Alcyon wrote: I was thinking Conclave too, it's just a shame there's no way to fit more than one of them in with a Grav Dev or Centurion pod. Delivery is really the key Conclave issue I feel, bikes are a good workaround and you can run 4 Grav-guns in a Command Squad but it's quite pricey (and IH do it better with FNP.) Maybe just running them on bikes in a regular Bike Squad with 2 Grav would be fine, or even in a Scout Biker Squad so VVs could DS on them for combat support. You can fit more than one of them in a pod. Pod holds twelve, iirc? Cents take up 9, meaning I could fit up to 3 ICs in with them. Same thing goes for Devs. That being said, I'm not sure I would want to. Committing that much to one unit feels very risk. I think id have one attached to the Dev unit, and then the other two on bikes (better) or jump packs (fluffier). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alcyon Posted December 6, 2016 Share Posted December 6, 2016 Pod holds 10, my dude. Yeah, problem with either jump packs or bikes is they need some meat shields to run with, and if you go with jump packs there's no way to get them into CC after a deep strike so they're kinda hung out to dry. Starting on the tabletop for t1 shrouded maybe makes the most sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpwyrm Posted December 6, 2016 Share Posted December 6, 2016 Don't forget you can take advantage of the Fulmination Power and infiltrating scouts to hop around with your conclave, getting into shooting/assaulting range with relative ease. In a full conclave, you have a good chance of getting the right power for this. For Centurions, you can even settle on the 18" jump power since you don't care about assault. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow Captain Vyper Posted December 6, 2016 Author Share Posted December 6, 2016 In regards to the pod, sums up my feelings. Ill use the excuse that 1) I don't have my codex at work (where I wrote that post from), and 2) Marines didn't really use pods when I quit (plastic had just come out, and prior to that it was a FW-rules thing and needed "permission" to use). Anyway, I think Bikes are probably the most durable. CT gives you a 2+ jink on the first game turn, but jump packs make them slightly stronger in assault. That being said, you probably don't want them in assault, which leads us back to bikes. Using a Conclave as a RG player definitely feels a little unfluffy, but there are some synergistic plays to be made for sure. @ jpwyrm: That's a really good point. Typically when I think of the Conclave/Psychic phase, I think of force multiplying powers, not utility type powers. That's definitely one way to go about using them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Claws and Effect Posted December 7, 2016 Share Posted December 7, 2016 I want to try giving a Librarian Ss&M and rolling on Fulmination to do some try and get Fists of Lightning. The ability to hit with 40+ attacks from a single model is intriguing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow Captain Vyper Posted February 23, 2017 Author Share Posted February 23, 2017 Bumping my old thread to add a new batrep. Tried some changes to my list. Wanted to give the Devs + CataCapt kit a run, in addition to testing podding tacticals. Talon Strike Force Battle Demi-Co Captain - Cataphractii Armor (Shield Eternal + TH + Auspex) Dreadnought - MM/PF+HFlamer - In Pod ASM x 5 w/ 2xFlamer and MB Tactical x 5 - Melta/Combi-Melta - In Pod Tactical x 5 - Melta/Combi-Melta - In Pod Tactical x 5 - Flamer/Combi-Flamer - In Pod Devastators x 5 - 4x Grav-Cannons - In Pod Shadow Strike Kill Team 5 x Scouts - Bolters, Camo Cloaks 5 x Scouts - Bolters, Camo Cloaks 6 x Vanguard Veterans (2x BP/SS, 4x LC/PF, 1MB with SS Marine) 6 x Vanguard Veterans (2x BP/SS, 4x LC/PF, 1MB with SS Marine) Strike Force Command Chapter Master Murderwings - AA, MB, SS&M My buddy played his tuned Necron list, I have posted it before but here it is again: Decurion/Reclamantion Legion Lord w/ AP2 Flame Gauntlet/Staff of Light 5 x Immortals (Retinue for Lord) - In Night Scythe 10 x Warriors - In Ark10 x Warriors - In Ark10 x Warriors - In Ark 3 x Tomb Blades - Shield Vaynes / +1 Cover Save upgrade Triarch Stalker 5 x Praetorians 5 x Praetorians Canoptek Spyder 3 x Scarabs 5 x Wraiths - Whip Coils After our last game together, my buddy is changing up his strategies. I won the roll to deploy/go first. We played the standard Maelstrom game (3 TO cards per turn, standard deployment, etc). I deployed the ASMs and Murderwings dead center of the board behind LoS blocking terrain. He deployed all his units in a castle with a chunk of them behind LOS blocking terrain. He used the Arks to form an L shape, with praetorians sitting behind each ark. His Wraiths were tucked in next to the L behind terrain, and his spyder tucked all the way into the terrain in the corner of the L, no visible to shooting by anywhere one my side of the board. He failed to seize, and I deployed my scouts on his right flank, looking right at the Wraiths/Spyder. I rolled for my other two drop pods in addition to the 3 I would be getting, and got them both. Okay, I guess everything's coming in (I really didn't want this at the time, but alas, dice are dice). I attempted to drop both melta pods, the flamer pod, and the dread right in front of his two arks forming the long side of the L. Both the flamer and one Melta pod scattered back and to my left so far as to be out of any sort of effective range/move. The pods that came down closer (nothing landed on target) allowed me to put triple melta (Dread and Tacticals) into one Ark and blow it up, in addition to the dreads heavy flamer hosing down the transport first, and clipping 3 praetorians standing behind in the wings. I killed a praetorian and 3 warriors with the H-Flamer, and another 2 on explosion. The explosion killed another praetorian in the other unit as well. My grav devs in Pod dropped right in the middle of the board on an objective, giving me range on the Tomb Blades, one Ark, and the wraiths/spyder if either creeped out from behind their cover. The opened up on the other Ark, 5+ cover to start, plus it was a heavily obscured angle, and night fight (meant 3+ cover). He made all his cover saves (I did something like 6 hits). Did I mention this squad didn't land on target either? If they hadn't scattered so far back, I would have had the angle I wanted, and he would have only had a 4+ save. Would have made a world of difference. Murderwings and his unit of ASMs jumped up the field onto an objective for a TO card. Lastly, the VVs both dropped in on his right flank. One was going to be a 6" charge from the Spyder, the other was a 7" charge to the Wraiths. I made the charge to the Spyder (yay), I failed the charge to the Wraiths (boo). I rolled a 2/4 for 6", rerolled and got a 1/5 for 6" again. Derp. I easily man-handled the spyder, so Reanimation protocols were off for the Wraiths. I scored 5 VPs (2 TO control cards, and whatever the control 2 and twice your opponent is called for D3, rolled a 5, so 3 points) His turn, wraiths move out to come after a multi charge of both VVs. Both units of remaining praetorians jump over to also go after the VV unit that killed the spyder. All 3 Arks reposition to lay a broadside volleys into my Pods/Dread/Tacticals. The Arks/Warriors easily manage to handle my dread (boo), and the warrior unit his Ark got blown up move up, double tap my melta tacticals, and charge them, killing all but one. I choose to fall back. The tomb blades move out to go after scouts. He shoots, kills one, but loses one to overwatch. I lose one in Combat, and choose to run. The Wraiths/Praetorians manage to kill all but 2 from one VV squad, and 2 from the other, leaving me with a unit of 2 and a unit of 4. I kill something like 3 Praetorians and 1.5 Wraiths for the punishment taken. Both units of VV chose to run. He scores nothing, my turn Murderwings and his unit move up to intercept the warriors that just punished my tacticals on my right flank. Grav devs take up aim on the Wraiths. The unit of 4 VV move into position to go after whats left of the Wraiths after the Grav Devs get done pummeling, the other 2 VV line up to go after the wounded unit of praetorians. Both units of Scouts take up position to bolt pistol and charge the tomb blades. My other two tacticals that drifted off mark move up the field (through cover) very slowly, wont expect anything of them this turn. Grav devs deal a hammering to the Wraiths, leaving 1 left with 1 wound, and 1 healthy. Scouts manage to kill one tomb blade with bolt pistols. Everyone charges. Murderwings and Co easily kill the warriors. My scouts kill the last tomb blade. The VVs kill the wounded wraith with Hammer of Wrath (yay), and manage to easily handle the last one. The two man squad of VV charge the 2 man praetorian unit, and eliminate them both. I score my full 3 points (Kill something with a jump unit, control an objective, and be in my opponents deployment zone. Score is 5-0. His reserve flyer/lord/immortals come in, headed straight for my Grav Devs. He had forgot to roll for his Ark reanimate last turn, but he did it this turn, refilling both units of warriors to full. He managed to flame 3 devs (2 cannons and the sarge) before the Captain tanked the remaining 4 wounds. He punished my pods/murderwings/asms with volley fire in the center (it was a meatgrinder), earning him some VPs and clawing control of his board side back. He consolidated his remaining 2 praetorians hiding them back. He jumped scarabs out after my other melta unit to tarpit them to prevent them from walking up and melta'ing another Ark. He scored like 2 points this turn for killing some pods and clearing off an objective or two. On my turn I would break off the catacaptain to go after the lord and crew, send Murderwings after the scarabs, and the remaining 2 ASMs (1 MB) after an Ark. The Grav devs only have LoS on the Immortals and lord at this point. I kill the scarabs easily, freeing up my unit. I wound the lord with grav fire, and kill another 2 immortals in H2H with my CataCap (he refused my charge, dishonorable cretin). He loses combat but passes morale. I score a few more points, however I have made a huge mistake. Murderwings is exposed and staring at 2 full Arks of warriors. Ooops. I score like 2-3 points, and its 9-2 or something (I got first blood so its really like 10-2 iirc). He slays murderwings (something like 18 wounds, I rolled 4 ones). I kill his lord in Hand to hand. (we both get Slay the warlord). Game pretty much winds down from this point onward. I consolidate and hide as best I can from the flyer and arks, he tries to punish what he can see while scoring points, but doesn't want to move out and expose himself to the remaining two gravs. Game ends with a score of something like 12-5. Will post with more analysis later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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