Augustus Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 We all know how it went down. But I am curious to know what the community thinks if one or more of the loyalist legions were replaced with alternate ones. Would it have gone better or worse? I think if the White Scars, Dark Angels, Ultramarines, and Raven Guard were the 4 loyalist legions sent and the traitors did everything exactly the same I believe the results would have been more in the loyalist's favor. Conversely I think the Blood Angels might have done poorly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grotsmasha Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 I think that no matter the Legions involved, 7 vs 4 was always in Horus' favour. The loyalists were at too big of a disadvantage, and not just numbers either. Horus had better armour, Power Armour piercing rounds (which the Loyalists didn't), plus the element of surprise. As a die hard Dark Angel fan, I honestly don't think that The Lion would/could have done any better if substituted for any of the other Primarchs. Cheers, Jono Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
misterkho Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 With the exception of the Emperor with his custodes no one could have made a difference on Istvaan.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 Yeah I don't think it would have ended any better for any of them. THOUGH... I think Sanguinius would have done some pretty spectacular stuff for sure, we don't really know the true extent of his insane rage mode power but it's big and there is a reason Horus made him be lost at Signus as opposed to involved in the Istvaan Massacre. Where Corax didn't Kill Lorgar, Sanguinius would have probably ended him VERY quickly, and the Night Haunter too (maybe, precognition allowing). Out of all of them I think Dorn would have been truly awful. Sure he could well have done an amazing siege, but as soon as he had reason to go after Perturabo he would have and the entire Fists legion would have probably suffered for it. In an ambush the Khan has no real advantages, as does Guilliman - being too rigid to react to this and will have no way had a plan for the 4 legion betrayal. The Lion... I'm not sure. He would have gone down fighting, that's for sure and he certainly would have had a lot of tricks up his sleeve that Horus may not have known about - but I doubt it would have been enough to swing anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forward Assist Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 There's an inevitable 'but teh Dork Angles would have been with der traitorz' comment going to pop up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fenbain Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 I think the only legion change which would have made a difference would be the removal of the Iron Hands and Ferrus Manus. Due to the personal betrayal between Fulgrim and Ferrus, the loyalist legions were forced by Ferrus' hand to rush into a situation they could have prepared much better for. They still would have lost but I don't think as catastrophically. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augustus Posted November 7, 2016 Author Share Posted November 7, 2016 Good points and reasoning. If you substitute another legion for Raven Guard would they have survived like the Raven Guard did? The surprise of 4 legions at your back revealing themselves to be traitors... We know from Isvaan III Horus could make a mistake/ be led into/forced into one. I don't see Guillimen or the Lion willing to go in with 3 legions vs 4. I see them planning something different. Of course Horus and Alpharius would devise a trap to suit his opponent. I just see the Salamanders and Iron hands as bad choices given the circumstances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noserenda Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 Isnt it 3 loyalist legions? I may be being thick...But with the possible exception of replacing Ferrus' too headstrong approach which might minimise losses any combination of loyalists would probably end about the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 In an ambush the Khan has no real advantages, as does Guilliman - being too rigid to react to this and will have no way had a plan for the 4 legion betrayal. Calth would like to have a word. But in seriousness, if it had been the Ulramarines, the Dark Angels and the Space Wolves on Istvaan V, then those three Legions would have been wiped out, and the Salamanders, Raven Guard and Iron Hands would have come to aid the loyalists at Terra. However, with the Ultramarines gone the Scouring might have played out a bit differently. Also the Word Bearers could have been sent against one of the other Legions. Perhaps attacking the Raven Guard or the Iron Hands at their homeworld would have proven more devastating to the loyalists. So while it would not really have changed the outcome at Istvaan V itself, it would have affected some of the other events later down the line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helterskelter Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 If the ultras had the weight of the legion behind them, it potentially could have been way more damaging to the traitors due to the greater attrition that would've needed to happen. Similarly though through technology rather than numbers the dark angels probably would have unleashed the dread wing from the off and blasted massive holes in everything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augustus Posted November 7, 2016 Author Share Posted November 7, 2016 It was three legions. Forgive my mistake. I don't see Guillimen and the Lion going into the trap. And as Legatus said Cath proved the big blue boss could adapt well. @Legatus You don't see Guillimen doing any better? @helterskelter Yeah. I also wonder with the combined tactical analyzing prowess of the Lion and Guilli, the weight in numbers of Ultramarines, and the suspicious nature of the Lion how much power the trap would have behind it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Hands Fanatic Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 Good points and reasoning. If you substitute another legion for Raven Guard would they have survived like the Raven Guard did? The surprise of 4 legions at your back revealing themselves to be traitors... We know from Isvaan III Horus could make a mistake/ be led into/forced into one. I don't see Guillimen or the Lion willing to go in with 3 legions vs 4. I see them planning something different. Of course Horus and Alpharius would devise a trap to suit his opponent. I just see the Salamanders and Iron hands as bad choices given the circumstances. It's important to remember whatever Ferrus' emotional state at the time, he did believe that he'd be reinforced by 4 additional Loyalist Legions partway through the battle - neither Guilliman nor the Lion could have predicted they'd all turn traitor, so neither would have thought they'd have three Legions against four - rather seven against four, odds no Primarch would balk at. I mean, maybe another Primarch would have waited for the full fleet of 7 Legions to arrive before deploying, but I'm not sure about the logistical feasibility of that - in Massacre, it states that with just the Salamanders, Raven Guard & Iron Hands contingents, getting soldiers and vehicles to the frontline became extremely difficult due to the number of troops on the field - with that in consideration, arraying seven Legions against the initial 4 Traitor Legions would have been almost impossible, so deploying in 'waves' seems to be a more viable option. I don't think Ferrus' initial battle plan was flawed, only his decision to push forwards whilst the Raven Guard & Salamanders withdrew for the second wave to take over - part of the reason to deploy the first wave straight away was to prevent the absent Traitor fleet from intercepting their ground assault - allowing for a void battle which would bleed the Loyalist troops was hugely disadvantageous to a separate ground and void conflict. I mean, okay at the end he allowed his anger to take over, but there's a reason Ferrus was put in charge of seven Legions (eight if you include the Fists), and that's because he'd previously served in a position similar to that of Warmaster - that is, commanding other Legions and their Primarchs during the Great Crusade. From all of the Loyalist Legions, the Fists, Salamanders and Hands are probably the 3 best suited to attrition warfare, which is what Isstvan came down to, and all three of them were sent to take out Horus - obviously with different sized Legions, you'd have different casualty rates and different numbers of survivors, but the net result would be the same - two Legions pretty much extinct, along with almost half of a third. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augustus Posted November 7, 2016 Author Share Posted November 7, 2016 Hmm. Good point about the attrition-enduring nature. But all three were small legions, correct? The Iron Hands not all being present. Salamanders and Raven Guard being smaller than most. Also, Istvan III greatly reduced the four openly traitor legions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodunius Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 The outcome of the massacre was dictated by the orbital battle - without changing that the loyalist ground forces are still trapped on the ground with limited supplies and no hope of extraction in face of certain annihilation by superior numbers and orbital strikes. I think the only loyalist swap-in that could make a difference is the Imperial Fists and their titanic fleet. The Ultramarines had a massive manpower advantage but even before Calth their fleet was mid-range at best - their presence would cost the traitors more on the ground, but ultimately would have removed the need for Horus to dispatch forces to Ultramar just to slow them down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 With 4 Traitor Legions on one side and 4 Traitor Legions on the other, I don't really see any combination of 3 loyalist Legions coming out alive. Even adding a bulk of troops, war machines or ships would not have altered the outcome that much, just at marginally more cost for the traitors. Even 5 loyal Legions would not have had much of a chance against 8 traitors, half of whom were dug in, with the loyalists in the open. It was a trap, and the only way out would have been if they would have seen it coming. Once sprung, the odds were stacked extremely high against the loyalists. For that reaosn I don't think anyone ever saw it as an issue of embarrassment for the three loyalist Legions that they were wiped out at Istvaan V. It was just annoying that they then would not play any further part in the Heresy. But there was not really much they could have done. Any other Legion would have been destroyed just the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M@verik115 Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 There's an inevitable 'but teh Dork Angles would have been with der traitorz' comment going to pop up. Only cause its true :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M@verik115 Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 Jokes aside, as has been stated, I doubt there would have been a much different outcome. Even if the ultramarines brought their full forces to bear, they would be surrounded and picked off, probably sustaining more casualties than on Calth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augustus Posted November 7, 2016 Author Share Posted November 7, 2016 If that's the consensus, would the other legions have let themselves get into that position? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elzender Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 Yeah I don't think it would have ended any better for any of them. SNIP Out of all of them I think Dorn would have been truly awful. Sure he could well have done an amazing siege, but as soon as he had reason to go after Perturabo he would have and the entire Fists legion would have probably suffered for it. SNIPETTY-SNIP I admit I haven't read any of the HH novels featuring the Imperial Fists nor Dorn (yet), but as far as I understand Dorn didn't have a personal grudge or hatred of Perturabo before the Siege of Terra, he just didn't like his approach and wasn't on good terms with him, so I don't think he would have gone head-first against him in that situation, specially considering that by the time the betrayal was revealed reaching him would probably be quite difficult, unless Perturabo decided to fight Dorn personally. Dorn might be as empathic as a brick and sometimes even choleric, but I don't think he would be guided by rage in that situation (regarding the Iron Cage, it should be noted that Dorn was severly affected by the Emperor's death, seeing it as his failure, and at that point he did let his rage guide him, but prior to it he was always pictured as extremely dutiful). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jackalwolf Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 Definitely think the Lion and Guilliman would be the most likely to make a difference, the first because the Dark Angels had much more old equipment which would be useful to take our marines and the Lion would never trust anyone to watch his back, and Guilliman because of his Legion numbers, independent nature which potentially wouldn't make him rely on a second wave coming and finally, I can't believe someone so analytical as Guilliman and his theoreticals and practicals wouldn't reach the inevitable conclusion that if four legions have turned traitor, some others might have too, and chief suspect amongst the legions coming to their aid would be the night lords who weren't even called and the alpha legion which he despises and mistrusts. Primarchs that would have made it worse unless they're replacing Ferrus: Sanguinius and Russ because I believe they would have committed all in with Ferrus on an overwhelming strike charge. Then again, those three together might have just pulled something like that off :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 Sanguinius has precognition which could have been huge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jackalwolf Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 Very valid point. The only three combined legions that could have pulled it off with some degree of success imo would be Blood Angels, Ultramarines and Space Wolves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 I admit I haven't read any of the HH novels featuring the Imperial Fists nor Dorn (yet), but as far as I understand Dorn didn't have a personal grudge or hatred of Perturabo before the Siege of Terra, he just didn't like his approach and wasn't on good terms with him, so I don't think he would have gone head-first against him in that situation, specially considering that by the time the betrayal was revealed reaching him would probably be quite difficult, unless Perturabo decided to fight Dorn personally. Dorn might be as empathic as a brick and sometimes even choleric, but I don't think he would be guided by rage in that situation Dorn might not initially have had ill feelings towards Perturabo, but on the other hand he flipped out on Curze when he learned that the latter spoke of a potential coming conflict between the brothers (and then Curze flipped out on Dorn for flipping out on him). I don't think he would have taken open treachery from Horus that well. Plus, Perturabo was among the "hidden" traitors stabbing the loyalists in the back, so Dorn's feelings toward him would not have been relevant for Dorm rashly moving against the initial dug in traitors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elzender Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 I admit I haven't read any of the HH novels featuring the Imperial Fists nor Dorn (yet), but as far as I understand Dorn didn't have a personal grudge or hatred of Perturabo before the Siege of Terra, he just didn't like his approach and wasn't on good terms with him, so I don't think he would have gone head-first against him in that situation, specially considering that by the time the betrayal was revealed reaching him would probably be quite difficult, unless Perturabo decided to fight Dorn personally. Dorn might be as empathic as a brick and sometimes even choleric, but I don't think he would be guided by rage in that situation Dorn might not initially have had ill feelings towards Perturabo, but on the other hand he flipped out on Curze when he learned that the latter spoke of a potential coming conflict between the brothers (and then Curze flipped out on Dorn for flipping out on him). I don't think he would have taken open treachery from Horus that well. Plus, Perturabo was among the "hidden" traitors stabbing the loyalists in the back, so Dorn's feelings toward him would not have been relevant for Dorm rashly moving against the initial dug in traitors. You're absolutely right on what you've said, but I was mostly referring to Charlo saying Dorn would go straight for Perturabo once he had a chance, which I'm not sure it is what he would do in that situation. Then again, Dorn was informed of Horus treachery, in fact he was the first loyal primarch to know about it. Even then, he did not lead his legion personally against the traitors, because the Emperor had tasked him with the Imperial Palace fortification. Dorn is all about duty, and if he had the mission of punishing the traitors, I think he would carry on, even when surrounded by eight legions, trying to cause maximum damage and casualties to the traitors, and not focus on a personal dispute. Maybe he would try to reach Horus as the main enemy leader to destabilize the traitors command structure, but I don't think he would forfeit the mission to punish a specific primarch just because of a personal feeling. With this I'm not saying Dorn and the Imperial Fists would have performed better than any other legion (actually they would have probably died to a man at Istvaan V), but rather they would have sticked to the mission to the bitter end, which was to capture/kill Horus (and the other rebel primarchs, but the focus was on the revolt leader) regardless of the circumstances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluntblade Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 It was three legions. Forgive my mistake. I don't see Guillimen and the Lion going into the trap. And as Legatus said Cath proved the big blue boss could adapt well. @Legatus You don't see Guillimen doing any better? @helterskelter Yeah. I also wonder with the combined tactical analyzing prowess of the Lion and Guilli, the weight in numbers of Ultramarines, and the suspicious nature of the Lion how much power the trap would have behind it. Equally, I think the Khan would've been suspicious Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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