Baluc Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 Maybe But as good as FW is i wouldn't give them too much credit - I feel it's just another example of some disjointed rules writing. When you could take Tartaros and shields I never heard anyone moan that they were Op - you had to pay a lot of points to have 3++ sweep! Its not a lot of points... its 5 ppm A vigil pattern stormshield is 15 points per model on tartaros armor A vigil pattern sotmrshield is 10 points per model on Cataprachtii armor A powerfist is 5 points per model. 5 ppm more I should have specified obviously. 5 pts to run and sweep is cheap on a 2+,3++ model with no shooting weapon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Blackwood Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 five points per model more than what ? Firedrakes ? Who have 2 wounds ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 five points per model more than what ? Firedrakes ? Who have 2 wounds ? And WS5 :/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 IF still have some of the best terminators in 30k. Take a Chaplain attached to the squad if WS is a concern. 2 wounds means nothing against ID. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Blackwood Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 Were talking about price comparisons not effectiveness you should read a conversation before you decide to contribute to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 Fire Drakes are a great deal for the points and one of the nice things Salamanders have. Sure it'd be nice if IF and other Legions had a similar unit for the points but that would take away from Salamanders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Blackwood Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 Imperial Fists Storm Shield Tartaros Terminators cost 50 points more than Fire Drakes Have 1 Less Weapon Skill Have 1 Less woundDo Not have Concussive on their weapons It takes NOTHING away from Salamanders to have a terminator unit that costs MORE than their terminators with the ability to sweep vs having the extra bonuses. AGAIN The conversation is about cost vs an example of a unit that currently exists Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 Can't IF terminators take thunder hammers ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Blackwood Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 Which would widen the points gap even more. Again you are ignoring the conversation , picking one particular thing from the replies and just commenting on it. WE ARE TALKING ABOUT UNIT COST Firedrakes - 10 in a spartan 850 points 2 W WS 5 Imperial Fists Tartaros SS / TH - 10 in a Spartan 950 points 1W WS 4 ability to sweep It takes NOTHING AWAY from Salamanders, and again thats not even the issue , the idea that the unit is not expensive to field is the statement being discussed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 Thunder hammers costs the same for both so I don't see how it widens the gap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Blackwood Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 Wow , I just I cant tell if you are delibrately trolling me or what , maybe you are having difficulty tracking the conversation The Difference is 50 points when considering power fists and a 100 when considering Thunderhammers The original comparison as to the cost of the unit was using power fists YOU brought up thunderhammers which widens the gap an ADDITIONAL 50 Points And yet despite answering your question it still is just you further spinning the conversation AWAY FROM THE POINT The Cost of Imperial Fists Terminators with a 2+ / 3++ and sweeping ability is high , the comparison to Fire Drakes who cant sweep but have defensive bonuses instead displays a 50 point difference ( when using fists instead of hammers) while the Firedrakes hold Concussive , WS5 and 2 Wounds over the Imperial Fist Terminators while costing 50 points less. When using Thunderhammers it FURTHER WIDENS THE GAP BECAUSE IT INCREASES SAID GAP TO 100 POINTS while only bringing the fist termis closer in terms of removing the concussive advantage of the Firedrakes. The Cost of the Unit is high relative to similar units of terminators. I dont know how to spell it out for you any better , and I swear if you come back with something else thats utterly nonsensical I am going to do what has been suggested to me and just ignore your posts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 I would appreciate it if you put me on your ignore list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baluc Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 First of all. Relax, its an internet forum not the battlefield Secondly. 5 Tartoros Terminators w/ 5x Storm shield and powerfists 275 5 Firedrakes w/storm shield and powerfists 325 You could argue that they still don't fill the same roll and its not tactically sound to use IF Terminators in that fashion since they have teleport transponders but anyway. Upgrading both those units up to max size in puts them at 575 and 625 respectivley. The Spartan costs the same. The 50 points comes with the following advantages: 10 addition wounds Ws5 Fear and pinning resistance 1 master crafter weapon And these list of drawbacks: Cannot sweep (pretty big considering its an assault unit) -1 to their charge rolls or -3 through cover (again a pretty big deal for an assault unit) The only way to mitigate their charge limitations is to take a RoW that prevents them from getting a dreadclaw, the single most effecient transport in the game especially for 2 wound terminators. Fire Drakes get a pretty serious discount for their significant assault limitations, none of which IF Tartorus have to deal with. And since you can teleport in 2x assault cannons, and a smatering of combi-weapons being a T5, 3++ wall with a 15 point upgrade before you charge and sweep an enemy combat unit, I think Storm shield tartorus have a bit of a surcharge. But are quite viable outside the 10+Primarch+forgelord+Chaplain+Primus in a Spartan meta choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Blackwood Posted February 1, 2017 Share Posted February 1, 2017 Your correct I was assuming that the shields were included in their cost. Which is my mistake. I'll disagree with you on the idea that it's not an expensive unit or one that it reasonably priced for what it does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K3nn3rs Posted February 1, 2017 Share Posted February 1, 2017 And since you can teleport in 2x assault cannons, and a smatering of combi-weapons being a T5, 3++ wall with a 15 point upgrade before you charge and sweep an enemy combat unit, I think Storm shield tartorus have a bit of a surcharge. But are quite viable outside the 10+Primarch+forgelord+Chaplain+Primus in a Spartan meta choice. Unfortunately this isn't possible. You can't take deep striking units with the Stone Gauntlet RoW (the source of the T5). You also wouldn't be T5 if you charged. DS 10 terminators (in order to get 2 x assault cannons) IMO is a really bad tactic. The risk of a mishap is too great, it's ALOT of points in reserve and for what, 8 x S6 rending shots at BS4? Using shields and combi weapons/ assault cannons is also a poor load out -I find focusing on one role to be the most efficient/ effective option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted February 1, 2017 Share Posted February 1, 2017 Eight shields and two plasma blasters is still pretty good imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Withershadow Posted February 1, 2017 Share Posted February 1, 2017 I would appreciate it if you put me on your ignore list. That's some universally good advice there, I recommend everyone to follow suit! :) Your correct I was assuming that the shields were included in their cost. Which is my mistake. I'll disagree with you on the idea that it's not an expensive unit or one that it reasonably priced for what it does. Eh, I don't know. Terminators are pretty much garbage in 40K but the thunderhammer/shield variant is still probably the strongest load-out for them even without the ability to sweep (not as relevant in 40K of course). Having such a unit in 30K is pretty solid. I think the bigger shame is that it is not allowed for Command Squads, their WS5 and fearless would go a long way to make this unit a beastly brick. Sadly they can't take at all, much less on Tartaros. So this discussion is largely academic, since none of the things we are discussing are valid options. :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted February 1, 2017 Share Posted February 1, 2017 Or, you could just not participate in the discussion and let it take its natural course if you find it not to your liking/worthwhile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted February 2, 2017 Share Posted February 2, 2017 It's a very interesting discussion for sure. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delakar Posted February 15, 2017 Share Posted February 15, 2017 Hey could someone provide me the source for the ruling that says Tartaros terminator armor cant take stormshields. I keep seeing people say this on the web but no one in my gaming group can find a source and I haven't seen one online. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harrowmaster Posted February 15, 2017 Share Posted February 15, 2017 The storm shield entry in the red book says it can only be taken by models in standard or cataphractii armour. Edit: Page 29 of the Age of Darkness Legions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted February 15, 2017 Share Posted February 15, 2017 Yes it is very straight forward . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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