How big can be an Sororitas' Order?

[Ezr91aeL]

Anyway I'm aware that a Militant Order needs non-combat personel, but, as Drider told, I consider it not trully part of the Sisterhood, but more as part of general Ecclesiarchy. In any case my question was about "true" battle sisters.

 

Thanks again to everybody: too kind!

[Servant of Dante]

Anyway I'm aware that a Militant Order needs non-combat personel, but, as Drider told, I consider it not trully part of the Sisterhood, but more as part of general Ecclesiarchy. In any case my question was about "true" battle sisters.

 

Thanks again to everybody: too kind!

While that may be largely true, it is important to remember that the Orders Hospitaller, Diologus, Famulous, Sabine and Pronatus are just as much a part of the Adepta Sororitas as the Orders Militant. Helena the Virtuous. Prioress of the Convent Sanctorum was the Canoness of . . . the order of the Key I think? It's an Order Famulous in any case.

 

Edit: WOOOOOOH! It was the Order of the Key! I didn't think I knew that one :P

[Drider]

Not to mention if you ever play a command squad with a hospitaller, she's not a member of what ever order militant you painted your sisters, she's a member of one of the hospitaller orders

[Servant of Dante]

Not to mention if you ever play a command squad with a hospitaller, she's not a member of what ever order militant you painted your sisters, she's a member of one of the hospitaller orders

Which is why I need to name mine and decide which order she's from . . . 

 

I mean, since the Oder of the Glorious Reprisal is under the Convent Sanctorum, and I want to use a GW Order Hospitaller, my choices are the Order of the Eternal Candle and the Order of Serenity. I think I like the name Eternal Candle. Now I need a color scheme . . . 

[Ezr91aeL]

While that may be largely true, it is important to remember that the Orders Hospitaller, Diologus, Famulous, Sabine and Pronatus are just as much a part of the Adepta Sororitas as the Orders Militant. Helena the Virtuous. Prioress of the Convent Sanctorum was the Canoness of . . . the order of the Key I think? It's an Order Famulous in any case.

Edit: WOOOOOOH! It was the Order of the Key! I didn't think I knew that one

Yes, but they came from different orders and I was interested only in the numbers of a Militant Order.

[Bjorn Firewalker]

I think we can claim the Orders Hospitaller and Dialogous members who accompany Sisters of Battle into battle, are attached to the Order Militant- considered a full member- the way a US Navy corpsman (Hospital Corps serviceman) who accompanies a US Marine Corps combat unit into battle, is attached to that combat unit. (There's no such thing as a US Marine Corps combat medic, although there is such a thing as a US Marine Corps medical officer.)

 

Yes, such semantics can be used to justify inflating or deflating the size of an Order Militant, but didn't Sebastian Thor himself do so regarding the Ecclesiarchy having "no men under arms"?

 

Don't forget the Orders Hospitaller and Dialogous members can and will wear power armor, so they can keep up with their sisters in the Order Militant- they NEED to keep up in order to perform their duties to the Sisters of Battle.

[Grgobart]

Don't forget the Orders Hospitaller and Dialogous members can and will wear power armor, ...

Nothing against you, you correctly stated what's in the current rules, but I think those rules and fluff to excuse them, are BS and just the result of laziness on GW's part. The Power Armour (or whatever the source of that 3+ save is?), I'd guess is to make the "upgrade" less of an simultaneous downgrade, than it already is with the lower WS and no Boltgun. Same goes for the Bolt Pistol and grenades.

Sisters Hospitaller had been fine, going into battle with their very own Hospitaller Carapace Armour until this. And regardless of which armour it is, I'd say only a fraction of Hospitallers know/learnt how to use/wear them, as the majority of them are actually working off and beside the battlefield.

As for the "Combat Dialogus", as long as it's not assumed, that every Sister vehicle sporting a Laud Hailer, has to have a Dialogus on board to operate it, what's the point of a Dialogus wielding a Laud Hailer into Battle (other than for GW to sell that specific model). Don't get me wrong, I can see, a Sister Dialogus and her abilities being invaluable to a Canoness during certain campaigns, but so is a local civilian knowing the terrain and I don't see a reason dragging either of them into the actual line of fire! (The Canoness wanting, the cussing of whatever Xeno she's locked into melee with, translated in real time?)

As for "full memebership" for Hospitallers working in Militant Orders, I'd imagine it's not that "full". A combat Hospitaller obeying orders in battle, yes. Praying and eating together, yes. But something less ordinary, like a promotion ceremony, I'd guess it's back to her original Hospitaller Order for that.

And remember, Hospitallers aren't combat medics, like we know, military personal trained to provide medical support on the battlefield, They're medical professionals, off whom some choose/are chosen to aid their fellow Sororitas of the Orders Militant. And I'd imagine even only some of those, will actually go as far as to follow the Sisters of Battle into actual Combat and in doing so raise the need for combat training and combat equipment.

That's my opinion, not much help concerning actual numbers. But my advice would be: Since we already need some creativity filling in some of the holes in the 40K Fluff, why not also use some more to mend the occasional inconcistencies and contradicitons as well! (Meaning: do what you want, nobody expects you to put more effort into your 40K Fluff, than GW actually does)

[Bjorn Firewalker]

I thought Order Dialogous members also operate vox-casters and other long-range communications systems? That will be one reason the Canoness will want an Order Dialogous member beside her on the battlefield. "Sister Mariah, I want all Exorcist batteries to fire on the target in Grid Square 19930831!"

[Ice warrior]

 

Sisters Hospitaller had been fine, going into battle with their very own Hospitaller Carapace Armour until this. And regardless of which armour it is, I'd say only a fraction of Hospitallers know/learnt how to use/wear them, as the majority of them are actually working off and beside the battlefield.

.

.

And remember, Hospitallers aren't combat medics, like we know, military personal trained to provide medical support on the battlefield, They're medical professionals, off whom some choose/are chosen to aid their fellow Sororitas of the Orders Militant. And I'd imagine even only some of those, will actually go as far as to follow the Sisters of Battle into actual Combat and in doing so raise the need for combat training and combat equipment.

 

 

Question, are combat medics of the Sisters of Battle, been trained by Ordos Hospitallers or have they been moved to SoB from OH during their career? Furthermore who does the first aid and triage of the SoB casualties. We can assume only the personnel of Adepta Sororitas would be allowed to do the task. Medically trained auxiliaries of Ordos Militant or are they auxiliaries of the Ordos Hospitallers. I would bet for the latter. And furthermore I would have my money on the fact that Ordos Hospitaller and their support staff does all medical related work. They would train auxilaries, that get transferred between Adepta Sororitas Ordos, just like what happens with Ordos Dialogus.

 

What my point is? Ordos Hospitaller is more than just the individuals with finished training. There are more, personnel under training and their support crews.

[Ezr91aeL]

 

Question, are combat medics of the Sisters of Battle, been trained by Ordos Hospitallers or have they been moved to SoB from OH during their career? Furthermore who does the first aid and triage of the SoB casualties. We can assume only the personnel of Adepta Sororitas would be allowed to do the task. Medically trained auxiliaries of Ordos Militant or are they auxiliaries of the Ordos Hospitallers. I would bet for the latter. And furthermore I would have my money on the fact that Ordos Hospitaller and their support staff does all medical related work. They would train auxilaries, that get transferred between Adepta Sororitas Ordos, just like what happens with Ordos Dialogus.

 

What my point is? Ordos Hospitaller is more than just the individuals with finished training. There are more, personnel under training and their support crews.

 

Tecnically Sisters Hospitaller have only the basic combat training granted by the Schola Progenium: infact in Faith and Fire (or it was Fire and Faith?) sister Verity was very unconfortable during gunfights. But:

1. I think Hospitalier that follows Militants into battle gets a supplementar training (but it's only a my think)
2. Sisters can change order if they want. Normally is used by Militants too old or too wounded to continue fighting but I suppose some Hospitallers were Battle Sisters once.

[Drider]

Fluff wise Hospitallers would be manning battlefield medical facilities off of the front lines in support of  their militant sisters, Hospitallers acting as battlefield medics is also supported. 

 

As for the Sisters militant, they'd obviously be trained to provide first aid which is also supported in the fluff.

[Servant of Dante]

Sisters non-militant certainly do not count as a "full member" of an order they are attached to in any sense of the term, as far as I'm concerned, but that's my opinion.

 

I also don't think the Command Squad Hospitaller should have power armour, but that's also an opinion. Maybe she is issued carapace when deploying into an active combat zone, but not power armour.

[Ezr91aeL]

Sisters non-militant certainly do not count as a "full member" of an order they are attached to in any sense of the term, as far as I'm concerned, but that's my opinion.

 

I also don't think the Command Squad Hospitaller should have power armour, but that's also an opinion. Maybe she is issued carapace when deploying into an active combat zone, but not power armour.

The question about which kind of armour an Hospitaller should wears is open: let me explain.

In the Codex Hospitallers have power armour, but the actual codex is a copy/past of old-ones and it lacks of fluff. Overwise in Blood of Martyrs manual, an expansion to Dark Heresy 1st edition dedicated to Ecclesiarchy and with the all four tipe of order carrier, Hospitaller wears a special carapace with rebreather and a medi-tool integrated.

So at one side we have a codex that have old information and lacks of lore but is written by GW (so SUPER-official) and in the other side we have a book full of fluff, very detailed but written by Fantasy Flight Games (so only 99% official).

Choose what do you prefer. I prefer the carapace one but I can understand that a Hospitaller in a Command Squad (so in the bodyguard of a Canoness) should be a hi-ranked one and then she could have a Power Armour in battle.

[Servant of Dante]

 

 

Sisters non-militant certainly do not count as a "full member" of an order they are attached to in any sense of the term, as far as I'm concerned, but that's my opinion.

 

I also don't think the Command Squad Hospitaller should have power armour, but that's also an opinion. Maybe she is issued carapace when deploying into an active combat zone, but not power armour.

The question about which kind of armour an Hospitaller should wears is open: let me explain.

In the Codex Hospitallers have power armour, but the actual codex is a copy/past of old-ones and it lacks of fluff. Overwise in Blood of Martyrs manual, an expansion to Dark Heresy 1st edition dedicated to Ecclesiarchy and with the all four tipe of order carrier, Hospitaller wears a special carapace with rebreather and a medi-tool integrated.

So at one side we have a codex that have old information and lacks of lore but is written by GW (so SUPER-official) and in the other side we have a book full of fluff, very detailed but written by Fantasy Flight Games (so only 99% official).

Choose what do you prefer. I prefer the carapace one but I can understand that a Hospitaller in a Command Squad (so in the bodyguard of a Canoness) should be a hi-ranked one and then she could have a Power Armour in battle.

Of course it's an open question. I don't like basing my headcanon on FFG, but I don't see a Hospitaller having power armour training, and I don't think she should/would have access to it. I like letting that be a thing unique to the Orders Militant.

[Bjorn Firewalker]

 

Of course it's an open question. I don't like basing my headcanon on FFG, but I don't see a Hospitaller having power armour training, and I don't think she should/would have access to it. I like letting that be a thing unique to the Orders Militant.

As I said, an Order Hospitaller member needs power armor to "keep up" with a Sister of Battle, if she is to accompany the Order Militant member IN BATTLE. If she doesn't have power armor, she won't run as fast as the Sisters of Battle when the latter storms the enemy lines; meaning she will be unable to treat the wounds of a Sister of Battle; meaning she will FAIL IN HER DUTY. If she doesn't have power armor, she won't survive the kind of enemy attacks an Order Militant member's power armor will allow the latter to survive; meaning she will die; meaning she will be unable to treat the wounds of a Sister of Battle; meaning she will FAIL IN HER DUTY.

 

For all Adepta Sororitas, the concept of failing in their duties is anathema. They will do everything it takes to succeed. For the Order Hospitaller member who's attached to an Order Militant, that means getting power armor so she can "keep up" with the Sisters of Battle she serves. For the Sisters of Battle, that means giving power armor to Order Hospitaller members attached to their order, so the Order Hospitaller members can keep them alive long enough to DO THEIR DUTY and kill the enemy.

[Isolia]

I consider my hospitaller to be a medical officer as in most European armies' Surgeon Service (in France we have the Health Service of the ArmIES), it's a distinct, support branch in addition to Army, Air, and Navy, just like Supplies/Fuel services or Religious/Chaplain services, i.e. a separate entity that, by nature , has their members permanently attached to bigger sized forces, at least many of their members. In effect, they have two affiliations. They have their own liveries but , in the field, answer to the field commanders. Which means they can have either their own gear or some borrowed stuff from the force they accompany.

 

It allows me to use a different colour scheme on the Hospitaller.

 

That being said, the hospitaller and other auxiliaries will not change the body count much in the field. Within an order's global structure however, if they are permanently there, I would count them in , if not for else then for the mere size of the convent's facilities (by analogy with e.g. our Foreign Legion , which is part of the Army, and has a dedicated medical corps, but all non-combatant medical staff are from the Health Service originally)

[Grgobart]

I thought Order Dialogous members also operate vox-casters and other long-range communications systems? That will be one reason the Canoness will want an Order Dialogous member beside her on the battlefield. "Sister Mariah, I want all Exorcist batteries to fire on the target in Grid Square 19930831!"

Vox Casters are simple enough to be operated by guardsmen, why wouldn't your ordinary Sister of Battle or let alone a Canoness be unable to use it? I can see a Dialogus being quite useful, setting up and maintaining Vox cast network nodes, relays or something similar but that's again outside the direct line of fire (ideally!)

Question, are combat medics of the Sisters of Battle, been trained by Ordos Hospitallers or have they been moved to SoB from OH during their career? Furthermore who does the first aid and triage of the SoB casualties. We can assume only the personnel of Adepta Sororitas would be allowed to do the task. Medically trained auxiliaries of Ordos Militant or are they auxiliaries of the Ordos Hospitallers. I would bet for the latter. And furthermore I would have my money on the fact that Ordos Hospitaller and their support staff does all medical related work. ...

As I see it, every Sister would know the basics of first aid: bandaging different wounds and most importantly, transporting wounded fellow Sisters out of the immediate line of fire and off to somewhere, where they can be properly treated.

I could also imagine, similar to combat medics of today, some Sisters of Battle being more talented in this field, to get medical training slightly advanced to basic first aid and also bringing along a first aid kit, containing a bit more than just for her personal need. Such Sisters would fight normally in battle, but act as substitute nurse/medic, in between combat on the battlefield, when no proper Hospitallers are around.

I do feel like, there are plenty of jobs for Hospitallers in and around a Order Militant: keeping them healthy and in shape in their convent and on ther way to and from combat. And who better to teach them the above mentioned basics of first aid! But as I understand it, Hospitallers actually following Sisters of Battle into actual combat is not considered the norm and certainly not common enough for Sisters to be organized in such a way that would allow each Squad to be accompanied by their very own Hospitaller, thus me thinking there might be Sisters of Battle trained to be able to handle common medical needs, that are not covered by the first aid basics, tought to all Sisters of Battle. (e.g. handling and applying emergency narcotics or other drugs?)

Of course it's an open question. I don't like basing my headcanon on FFG, but I don't see a Hospitaller having power armour training, and I don't think she should/would have access to it. I like letting that be a thing unique to the Orders Militant.

As I said, an Order Hospitaller member needs power armor to "keep up" with a Sister of Battle, if she is to accompany the Order Militant member IN BATTLE. If she doesn't have power armor, she won't run as fast as the Sisters of Battle when the latter storms the enemy lines; meaning she will be unable to treat the wounds of a Sister of Battle; meaning she will FAIL IN HER DUTY. If she doesn't have power armor, she won't survive the kind of enemy attacks an Order Militant member's power armor will allow the latter to survive; meaning she will die; meaning she will be unable to treat the wounds of a Sister of Battle; meaning she will FAIL IN HER DUTY.

For all Adepta Sororitas, the concept of failing in their duties is anathema. They will do everything it takes to succeed. For the Order Hospitaller member who's attached to an Order Militant, that means getting power armor so she can "keep up" with the Sisters of Battle she serves. For the Sisters of Battle, that means giving power armor to Order Hospitaller members attached to their order, so the Order Hospitaller members can keep them alive long enough to DO THEIR DUTY and kill the enemy.

As GW never tires mentioning, Sisters' Power Armour is "powered" just enough to let it (plus equipment) be carried around efficiently, but not actually enhancing the wearers performance. As such I'd think a properly trained Hospitaller, without the added weight of a boltgun, the power backpack and whatever weight difference there is between Carapace Armour and whatever armouring compound is used for Power Armour, would be able to keep up with Sisters of Battle as much as she needs to.

Now while I do agree giving a Combat Hospitaller a pistol, I'd think it's for self defence purposes only. In my opinion a Hospitaller isn't activly engaging enemies, she won't be sticking her head out during a firefight to fire her non-existing boltgun and she won't be in first line, when charging or being charged.

That said, while I don't imagine it to be the norm, some Hospitallers might be trained to wear Power Armour, for whatever reason. But when I look at the Hospitaller model, I'd say that's the good ol' Hospitaller pattern Carapace Armour (even more so for the Dialogus model, if that can even be considered Armour at all!).

If you'd wanted to avoid some overblown Special Rules as well as multi-save shenanigans, a simple sentence in the Fluff would have sufficed for me: "Sisters of Battle take good care of their fellow Hospitallers, brave enough to follow them into combat. As such enemies are rarely presented the opportunity to exploit the fact, that Hospitallers only wear Carapace Armour."

Anything more, I'll admit, might not be worth the trouble, for just wanting to get "Fell no Pain" into a Command or any other Squad.

As for my Hospitaller model, she's definatly from a seperate Hospitaller Order, I have yet to find a name for, but due to some miraclulous coincidence, that order's colour scheme happens to be just the same as that of the Sisters of Battle from my Order of the Blazing Grace!

[Servant of Dante]

^Basically this. Thanks Grogbart, now I don't have to type it out, and you did a better job of explaining than I would have anyhow. :)

[Grgobart]

^Basically this. Thanks Grogbart, now I don't have to type it out, and you did a better job of explaining than I would have anyhow.

Great! So, not only am I doing GW's job, of trying to beat some sense into the mess they call 40K Fluff, for free. Now I'm also writing other people's posts for them!