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++ The Bringers of Despair - A Black Legion Community ++

Luna Wolves Legion Lunar Wolves Legion Sons of Horus Legion Black Legion XVI Legion Legio XVI Chaos Space Marines Heretic Astartes

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#101
Gosford

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I'd like to think it could work but on foot Possessed are pretty slow. I think if it's going to work it'll be in conjunction with a Hounds & Raptor Talon list, that way there is enough pressure on the enemy turn 1 and you can pin units in combat with raptors and warp talons... Or a Cabal getting their hands on Ghost Storm or Soul Switch... Or somehow get Astral Grimoire in the list, though how that could be done I'm unsure of. With everything (Cabal, Raptor Talon, etc) we're talking about 500-600 points formations. What are your thoughts on a list?


It's too bad The Tormented isn't in the Speartip... Crusader would be a really nice perk for footslogging Possessed units. :/


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#102
Sception

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okay didnt think it e that expensive, only thing i am fairly certain of is that the dreadclaw has scatter midigation due to it being a droppod its been clearfied in a faq somewhere, but might still e too expensive


If you could point to that FAQ, it would be greatly appreciated, because the dreadclaw definitely does not have any form of scatter mitigation in its most recent imperial armour rules text.

Even with scatter mitigation, it would be too expensive to use as a drop pod, but without it it isn't even really usable at all in that role. As an assault rhino it's overpriced-but-functional, but when it comes to the drop pod's role of precise delivery of short range dakka, it doesn't even try.


As for the notion of 'if it scatters, it scatters', that's fine for a beer & pretzels saturday game where if half your army kills itself before your opponent has so much as taken a single turn you can laugh it off and just set up another game, but if you're playing in any sort of tournament or league where the results of games have lasting impact, you'll find that deep strike without scatter mitigation stops being fun & funny pretty fast.

Personally, I'm still bitter about a stretch several years ago, shortly after the 6e CSM book was released, where 1000+ points of abaddon and terminators mishapped into the casualty pile three games in a row. On the third game, I was already so leery about it that I dropped the in basically the middle of nowhere, and Abaddon still managed to find the one patch of impassible terrain 11 inches away to teleport into and die.

If I wanted my army to play out like an episode of the three stooges, I'd have picked Orks, since at least for the greenskinz that sort of bufoonery is supposed to be part of the charm.

Edited by malisteen, 13 December 2016 - 04:40 PM.

from Shame and Shadow recast, in Black and Gold reborn.


#103
Lord Asvaldir

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Well, the 'Bringers of Despair' topic need more, er, Bringers of Despair! My first three finished to complete my Call of Chaos vow -

image_9.jpeg

Over Xmas holidays hopeful to get my other two done. More pics in my log smile.png

 

Midnight Runner those look great. How did you make the combi plasmas? I've been trying to figure out a way to make those for terminators for too long, and yours turned out great. 


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The Night is Dark and Full of Terrors...

 

 


#104
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Hey guys, thanks for all the comments and likes on my Termies :)

The plasmas are combi-plasmas from loyalist kits, with some added spikes from my bitz box and the bayonets from the Chaos Termies, and the ruyst affect is Mig pigments weathering powder - I can't remember it's name though! I did mix it with the old Dark Flesh and applied that first, then the weathering powder on top once dry :)

Cheers again all!
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#105
thamier

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okay didnt think it e that expensive, only thing i am fairly certain of is that the dreadclaw has scatter midigation due to it being a droppod its been clearfied in a faq somewhere, but might still e too expensive

If you could point to that FAQ, it would be greatly appreciated, because the dreadclaw definitely does not have any form of scatter mitigation in its most recent imperial armour rules text.Even with scatter mitigation, it would be too expensive to use as a drop pod, but without it it isn't even really usable at all in that role. As an assault rhino it's overpriced-but-functional, but when it comes to the drop pod's role of precise delivery of short range dakka, it doesn't even try.As for the notion of 'if it scatters, it scatters', that's fine for a beer & pretzels saturday game where if half your army kills itself before your opponent has so much as taken a single turn you can laugh it off and just set up another game, but if you're playing in any sort of tournament or league where the results of games have lasting impact, you'll find that deep strike without scatter mitigation stops being fun & funny pretty fast.Personally, I'm still bitter about a stretch several years ago, shortly after the 6e CSM book was released, where 1000+ points of abaddon and terminators mishapped into the casualty pile three games in a row. On the third game, I was already so leery about it that I dropped the in basically the middle of nowhere, and Abaddon still managed to find the one patch of impassible terrain 11 inches away to teleport into and die.If I wanted my army to play out like an episode of the three stooges, I'd have picked Orks, since at least for the greenskinz that sort of bufoonery is supposed to be part of the charm.


i looked but cant find it guess i must have dreamed it unless its in the ipad rule popup thingy, but thats not important, i got it dreadclaws are bad :)

gonna see if i should build more terminators instead some of them might survive deepstriking

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#106
Excessus

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It has scatter mitigation in the new Horus Heresy red book and costs 115p, but to my knowledge it hasen't been ported over to 40k yet...


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#107
Midnightmare

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We all know Chaos Warpsmiths don't maintain anything with scatter mitigation. Too busy squeezing Daemons into robot dinosaurs!
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#108
Sception

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It has scatter mitigation in the new Horus Heresy red book and costs 115p, but to my knowledge it hasen't been ported over to 40k yet...


Honestly? I think that makes it worse.

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#109
Excessus

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Not in the heresy...
"Deception IS the point. Any fool can calculate strength. That one has been doing it from the moment he saw us. Now, he has to calculate what he can't see. And fear what he doesn't know."

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#110
Sception

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No? I thought in the Heresy dreadclaws were an option in addition to regular drop pods, not in place of them. So looking at 115 point dreadclaws with inertial dampeners. For precision deployment of short range special weapons, regular drop pods do the exact same job nearly 100 points cheaper. For delivery of assault units? Those inertial dampeners don't matter much, because the unit can't assault the turn you deep strike anyway, and the claw has the movement to land in the open where mishap isn't an issue and turbo boost into position to deploy the unit and let them assault on the next turn, which is the soonest you can assault anyway.

If you're getting out on the same turn, even with scatter mitigation the dreadclaw is an 80-points-too-expensive drop pod. If you're not getting out on the same turn, then scatter mitigation is hardly worth 5 points, let alone 15, and on a unit that is already very expensive isn't worth anything at all.


Now, if you couple that scatter mitigation with the ability to assault the turn you arrive from deep strike, even if that assault is then disordered, THEN we might have something worth talking about. Of course, assault from reserve is generally thought to be pretty terrible for the game, but a number of units and formations have been gaining that ability lately. Maybe the designers think that, with overwatch and interceptor, that sort of alpha rush isn't really problematic anymore?

Anyway, yeah, let reserves charge the turn they come onto the table and I'll gladly pay 15 points for scatter mitigation on dreadclaws, but without that it just isn't worth it, imo.

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#111
Lord Asvaldir

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For deep striking assault units in, I wouldn't say dreadclaws are bad. The lack of scatter migration isn't a huge problem because you can just turbo boost 24" to get into position. For a unit like chosen it's actually probably the best delivery option we have. 


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#112
Sception

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That's exactly my point - for assault units the lack of scatter mitigation isn't a terrible cost, because you can land in the open and get into position and get out and charge next turn, which is the soonest you were going to be doing that anyway.  But because of that, gaining scatter mitigation wouldn't be worth the 15 extra points that FW is apparently charging for it now in 30k.

 

Again, unless they also grant the ability to assault from reserve, which would be bad for the game, but would make non-scattering dreadclaws worth every point of that 115 price.


Edited by malisteen, 14 December 2016 - 03:35 PM.

from Shame and Shadow recast, in Black and Gold reborn.


#113
Lord Asvaldir

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Aa I see your point, yeah there really is no need for the internal guidance in dreadclaws, so I wouldn't want to pay the extra fifteen points for it. 


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#114
Midnightmare

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It would be handy if there was ever a formation a la Fist of Khorne which uses the Kharybdis which does have it, but there is not so.....

#115
Sception

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I would love a 'lord + chosen + dreadclaw that can assault from reserve' formation, yeah.  Would run it all the time.

 

Alternative, dreadclaws that allow assaulting from reserve, but cost like 120 to 150 points, and were dedicated transports for possessed and berserkers in addition to CSMs and chosen?  I'd go for that all the time, too.  My go to list would be a black legion speartip with Hounds as a core formation packing the infantry units into dreadclaws, and deep striking the rest in raptor talon and various terminator formations (none of which add much, so are more about varrying what and how many characters and units you bring with than anything else).

 

But wish listing is neither here nor there, so... *shrug*.


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#116
totgeboren

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C'mon, saying inertial guidance does little to improve the Dreadclaw sounds like hyperbole to me.
I own 2, and the diameter is around 7". On average when deep striking you roll an arrow, and on average you will scatter 7". This means one outer edge will on average have moved (7"/2)+7"=10,5", so to have a so called "clear" area on the table where you can land safely on average, you would need a circle that is 21" across. That's basically a quarter of the tabletop.
I don't know how you guys play, but where I play a quarter of the table will not be left open and clear of terrain.

I have had Dreadclaws get immobilized, delayed or deployed by my enemy more times than they have successfully arrived in that 'safe spot' I was aiming for. Though, they have never actually been destroyed by Deep Strike....

Anyway, yes, Inertial Guidance should be included in the 100 pts. But Inertial Guidance is definitely worth 15 pts extra. From my experience, that would make a huge difference on the ability to deep strike with such a massive model.

Dreadclaws with Inertial Guidance in the Spearhead formation (since CSM and Chosen may take it as a dedicated transport) could work really well, since you might get to deploy all your Dreadclaws (hopefully) without mishaps on turn 1. If the other half of the army is a Hounds formation, you could assault with almost everything turn 2.

Edited by totgeboren, 14 December 2016 - 04:53 PM.

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#117
Excessus

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In the heresy you only get access to regular pods if you pod your entire army. They're not available on a unit by unit basis. Furthermore termies don't automatically come with deep strike so they'll need a transport, which is either gonna be a LR or a DC. 


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#118
Sception

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Ah, I see.  Using DC's for precision delivery of short range weapons still strikes me as not-the-best use, as they pay buckets of points of a bunch of special rules you're mostly not using in that case, but so be it.


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#119
Excessus

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It's an assault boat, not a drop pod though, but the inertial guidance makes it so you could use it as a pod when needed.


"Deception IS the point. Any fool can calculate strength. That one has been doing it from the moment he saw us. Now, he has to calculate what he can't see. And fear what he doesn't know."

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#120
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For what little it's worth, the day the new Legion book dropped with the Dreadclaw changes, I asked on FW's Facebook page if they planned to add the rule to the 40k version, and they responded with the "no plans at this time" line. But then, that probably applies to changing anything at all in the IA books. Can't contribute otherwise to the usefulness discussion, it's been a long time since I bothered with a Dreadclaw, and the one time I used it I delivered a Contemptor who got blown up before he could do anything meaningful.


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#121
thamier

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finally i got my traitor legions book!! inthink ill aim for the deepstrike so abadon and co and a min black legion warband as "tax" then warptalons in rapotor talon for cc pew pew and a big anilation force with combi weapons for that pew pew twice
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#122
Gosford

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Step 1. Bring IA 13 stuff regardless of CAD restrictions, etc...

Step 2. Have fun

Step 3. Stop whining. You're in the Black Legion... We have a reputation to uphol...rebuild.

Step 4. Don't respond to this comment with, "Yeah, but tournaments...yadda yadda yadda."

Step 5. ???

Step 6. PROFIT!



#123
dakkamasta

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Step 1. Bring IA 13 stuff regardless of CAD restrictions, etc...

Step 2. Have fun

Step 3. Stop whining. You're in the Black Legion... We have a reputation to uphol...rebuild.

Step 4. Don't respond to this comment with, "Yeah, but tournaments...yadda yadda yadda."

Step 5. ???

Step 6. PROFIT!

 

This is sort of how our gaming group works. We are a group of 5 close friends that are very competitive amongst each other but still like to bring lists that aren't complete cheese wheels. Ironically what we have realised is that the best balancing mechanism amongst the codexes is Unbound.

 

Yes I said the cursed word but hear me out. The way the game has evolved with formations and detachments the game has essentially become a legitimate form of unbound. However most of the top armies revolve around a 'Decurion' style detachment to optimise its strengths (Eg. Decurion, Gladius, Bloodhost, Hunter Contingent etc.). By allowing unbound it gives the weaker codexes a chance to optimise it's lists a bit more than 1 codex can allow without being forced into taking hq and troop choices or formation tax units that you never wanted to take. This leads me to where the Black Legion shines in this regard:

 

The Chaos Warband. As Black Legion we already get hatred (Imperium) so we don't need to take the black crusade detachment to get it. By taking a chaos warband with an unbound army you can take all the goodies you want from Forgeworld, Chaos Daemons, Daemonkin etc. whilst maintaining ObSec. Throw in a Cyclopia Cabal and attach them to spawn to give them the hatred that they're missing out on and the only thing you lose is a free boon every turn which is not a big deal. I've been experimenting with this idea and have come up with some solid lists that still have a good variety of units and stick to the fluff very well.

 

...and before anyone complains about cheese or some other anti-Unbound cry, let me remind you that currently the most popular competitive chaos list involves combining a unit of Flesh Hounds (which their sole purpose in the fluff is to hunt out psykers for Khorne) with a cabal of sorcerers attached to them to cast spells on them (despite being resistant to psychic abilities), and this is a Battle-Forge method of list building. If people have no problem with that, then you shouldn't be complaining about Unbound.


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#124
Midnightmare

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Do you not lose ObSec by running an unbound army, however?

For the record I have no problem with unbound btw and have run it numerous times, even during my one and only trip to Throne of Skulls :)
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#125
dakkamasta

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Excerpt from the rulebook: "Unlike other Detachments, Formations can also be taken as part of Unbound armies. If they are, their units maintain the special rules gained for being part

of the Formation." 

 

ObSec is a special rule that comes from the chaos warband specifically in this instance, so running it in an unbound force makes no difference.


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