Lemanbus Posted December 14, 2016 Share Posted December 14, 2016 Hi all, Long time lurker first time poster here, so I hope this is in the right place.... So Russ is pretty battered in Weregeld, we know that Corax is daunted by the strength of the blows which have dented and cut the Wolf Kings shield. Last we heard Russ was off to face Horus, did he make it? Did he get a slapping, the marks made by the Talon? We know Abaddon is despatched by the Warmaster to oversee the 6th's destruction, a pursuit force perhaps? I'm interested to hear your guys thoughts on what you think happened with Russ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MasterofMankind Posted December 14, 2016 Share Posted December 14, 2016 I thought it was pretty clear; Russ went after Horus and got his crap pushed in, as well as his legion stranded on Yarant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lemanbus Posted December 14, 2016 Author Share Posted December 14, 2016 I'm personally looking forward to this being expanded on, as the only thing holding me back on the Horus V Russ front is that Horus is basically in his final form after warring in the warp for centuries, That's not a fight I'd expect Russ to come back from... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Runefyre Posted December 14, 2016 Share Posted December 14, 2016 I don't think it was "just" Horus. It was transcendent Horus afaik. We'll find out more later on in the series, apparently Space Wolves and Raven Guard are getting their own subplot. Hopefully it doesn't make the Wolves look like the arrogant, impotent buffoons they currently are . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lemanbus Posted December 14, 2016 Author Share Posted December 14, 2016 Yeah that's what I eluded to Horus trancendent v Russ seems like a mismatch and I'd expect a dead Russ as opposed to a battered one. Although I'm looking forward to this being expanded. I agree there has almost been too severe a roll back on the Abnett stuff which overpowered the wolves big time. They have subsequently been smashed up at every turn alphas, what ever came before yarant and yarant itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Runefyre Posted December 14, 2016 Share Posted December 14, 2016 by abnett's stuff you must mean Prospero Burns? The Wolves were far from overpowered in that book. But that's beside the point. I don't think any primarch could survive a dual with steroid mode Horus. I think that Russ just surviving is a testament to his skill at arms. Looking forward to a Corax/Russ bro-team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taliesin Posted December 14, 2016 Share Posted December 14, 2016 We don't know that he actually met Horus though, do we? I've not yet read Weregeld, but the confrontation might as well have been with forces defending Horus from attack, rather than Horus himself. Though of course a genuine showdown with Horus would be more than tremendous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Loss Posted December 15, 2016 Share Posted December 15, 2016 Laurie Goulding said on another forum his injuries involved Horus. Russ didn't even know if he could beat Horus pre-Molech, which I don't believe he'd be able to do anyway, so he had no chance post-Molech. It's Russ though after all, so he should put up a good fight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted December 15, 2016 Share Posted December 15, 2016 Based on how BL has built up Horus as literally the "best" primarch...I think the odds would be against Russ even if he were facing "only" pre-Molech Horus I don't think Russ would be able to escape post-Molech Horus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted December 15, 2016 Share Posted December 15, 2016 I think Russ would have a chance against Pre-Molech Horus. As A D-B states alot, every primarch has a chance of defeating another Primarch Post-Molech he'd get smoked. Anybody under the Emperor would. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Loss Posted December 15, 2016 Share Posted December 15, 2016 Obviously no Primarch beats every Primarch every time. Just like how your special snowflake can cop a power fist to the face from an anonymous sergeant on the tabletop, the best/better fighter doesn't always win on the day, and with Primarchs it's rare you can authoritatively say who wins in a bout of fisticuffs, let alone rank them. That's a poisoned chalice. Alpharius would have killed Dorn if not for the intervention of his Huskarl, and Magnus was beating Russ before he suffered a lucky blow to the eye. That being said, I'd favour Horus against Russ, particularly after Russ' confession in VS. It speaks volumes. Doesn't mean Horus would beat Russ though. Molech-Horus is a different matter entirely, and unfortunately for Russ that's evidently what he is going to be walking into. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted December 15, 2016 Share Posted December 15, 2016 I think we can all agree that Russ should have sent random sergeant Wolfy McPowerfist to do the deed. Horus would have rolled some ones and then the heresy would've ended right there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted December 15, 2016 Share Posted December 15, 2016 Alpharius would have killed Dorn if not for the intervention of his Huskarl It seems quite certain that Alph would have hurt Dorn more seriously had Archamus not stepped in However, it seems far from certain that absent Archamus, Alph was guaranteed to kill Dorn Archamus thinks Dorn is oblivious to the incoming blow, but Archamus might have been wrong, i.e. Archamus might have been surprised by the outcome had he failed to intervene Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Loss Posted December 15, 2016 Share Posted December 15, 2016 Alpharius would have killed Dorn if not for the intervention of his Huskarl It seems quite certain that Alph would have hurt Dorn more seriously had Archamus not stepped in However, it seems far from certain that absent Archamus, Alph was guaranteed to kill Dorn Archamus thinks Dorn is oblivious to the incoming blow, but Archamus might have been wrong, i.e. Archamus might have been surprised by the outcome had he failed to intervene I disagree. His move is robbed of heroism if it goes from the 'perfect blow' to a 'blow that Dorn may have/would have blocked'. Either way, the end result does not change. Change it from 'would have killed' to 'would have landed a perfect blow' if that makes you happy. I'd define a perfect blow as a killing thrust, ending the fight in a single strike. It's what makes the whole scene so brilliant for me - yes, Alpharius gets annihilated, but it's because he threw everything into a desperate fight-ending move, which didn't come through. One of the best duels in 30k. I think we can all agree that Russ should have sent random sergeant Wolfy McPowerfist to do the deed. Horus would have rolled some ones and then the heresy would've ended right there. A Primarch (or some random high ranking character) dying to a random grunt in the middle of a battle is what I'm waiting for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted December 15, 2016 Share Posted December 15, 2016 @Marshal Loss Another point is that the blow is only "perfect" from Archamus' perspective. Some have argued that Archamus may have benefited from a better angle of sight relative to Dorn. Perhaps...but then I'd argue that Dorn is orders of magnitude more perceptive, smarter, and faster (both mentally and physically) than Archamus, who doesn't come across as particularly bright for a space marine. If Archamus had been just a foot or two out of reach, I could easily imagine Dorn managing to survive Alpharius' blow (to the awed surprise of Archamus)...perhaps tanking the blow with his chest but moving slightly, so that it pierces between his hearts or something like that Of course, I also have little trouble imagining Dorn being felled by Alpharius' blow. That too might have happened. That said, I do think French was deliberately trying to be very ambiguous, wanting either of the above to be within the realm of possibility. I don't think it was French's intent to set in stone that Dorn most definitely needed to be saved by Archamus in that scene (i.e. Alpharius essentially proving his superiority in that fight) I think the intent was to make it hard for us to call a clear victor. If you have to be saved by your underling...you've pretty much lost the 1 on 1. This reminds me of ADB's battle between the Lion and Curze in Savage Weapons. A lot of people were claiming that the Lion would have been doomed had Corswain not stepped in...ADB himself responded that: Sure, when the fight was broken up, the Lion was on the losing side. But how many squillions of fights between heroes/characters/protagonists/villains have we seen where the guy on the losing side has a second wind (cracking a rock against the head of the guy strangling him) and turns the tide a moment later. It happens all the time. These are warriors that can fight for days and days. Yet another mortal wound is nothing to them. The Lion won a little bit. Then Curze won a little bit. A Dark Angel intervenes and gets slapped away. It ends as a draw several minutes later. That's why I'm not on board the idea that Dorn would have been totally screwed but for Archamus' rescue effort Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mc warhammer Posted December 15, 2016 Share Posted December 15, 2016 a "perfect blow"; i don't know if there's that many degrees of difference between an astartes and a primarch in judging that. there's not really perfect and perfecter and more perfect. there might be a huge difference in the ability to execute one, but simply judging one when you behold it? i feel like space marine's enhancements and training might be pretty reliable in that regard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted December 15, 2016 Share Posted December 15, 2016 Edit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted December 15, 2016 Share Posted December 15, 2016 a "perfect blow"; i don't know if there's that many degrees of difference between an astartes and a primarch in judging that. there's not really perfect and perfecter and more perfect. there might be a huge difference in the ability to execute one, but simply judging one when you behold it? i feel like space marine's enhancements and training might be pretty reliable in that regard. There is no "perfecter than perfect", but that's not the issue really I think you'd have to break it down a bit more. The key issues seem to be 1. What does "perfect" mean in this context? I think it means more than..."technically perfect" or "with perfect form" I think, in this context, it means "guaranteed to kill Dorn" 2. Did Archamus correctly judge the blow to be a guaranteed kill-blow against Dorn? That sort of judgment would involve split-second mental calculations after correctly eyeballing distance, speed, angle, and correctly assessing Dorn's ability (or inability) to react and Dorn's durability Frankly, I find it a bit strange to conclude that Archamus' judgment, coloured by his fear and concern for his primarch, must definitely without a doubt be correct. 3. Was Dorn oblivious to the coming blow (caught completely off-guard)? This would relate to Dorn's ability to anticipate the blow...and would be why I bring up Dorn's intelligence relative to Archamus' It's not hard to imagine that Dorn anticipates the blow before Archamus becomes aware of it...however, Dorn doesn't react as Archamus would (try to avoid it), which causes Archamus to panic and rush to Dorn's aid We know that Dorn ends up stepping into the deflected blow, apparently intentionally...this move would've been rather odd if Dorn had completely failed to anticipate the blow and attempt a counter A possibility is that Dorn was planning to tank the blow somewhere to his torso, a risky move...but when Archamus intervened, he was able to tank the blow, almost harmlessly, with his shoulder. In this case, Archamus' effort would still be meaningful and "heroic" All that said, it's also possible that Dorn was guaranteed to die if Archamus failed to reach his side. I just don't think French's text supports that degree of certainty. 4. By how much did Archamus deflect the blow? It's not objectively clear how big of a difference Archamus made... Maybe Dorn intended to draw out Alpharius' blow and before trying to catch it with his shoulder. Absent Archamus' intervention, Dorn may not have been able to move fast enough and the plan may have backfired. However, Archamus ended up deflecting the blow toward Dorn's shoulder and meaningfully helped to reduce the risk to Dorn. Again, in this case, Archamus' effort would still be heroic. This is just off the top of my head. I fully acknowledge the possibility that Dorn might have died without the aid of his old huscarl. I just don't agree with it being certain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeritorA Posted December 15, 2016 Share Posted December 15, 2016 Hi all, Long time lurker first time poster here, so I hope this is in the right place.... So Russ is pretty battered in Weregeld, we know that Corax is daunted by the strength of the blows which have dented and cut the Wolf Kings shield. Last we heard Russ was off to face Horus, did he make it? Did he get a slapping, the marks made by the Talon? We know Abaddon is despatched by the Warmaster to oversee the 6th's destruction, a pursuit force perhaps? I'm interested to hear your guys thoughts on what you think happened with Russ. You kinda missed the news do you? Kinda missed several threads about poor wolves and Wolf Cull? Where have you been friend? Laurie Goulding said on another forum his injuries involved Horus. Russ didn't even know if he could beat Horus pre-Molech, which I don't believe he'd be able to do anyway, so he had no chance post-Molech. It's Russ though after all, so he should put up a good fight. And everyone should again proceed here and read what Laurie mentioned http://z13.invisionfree.com/The_First_Expedition/index.php?showtopic=1958&view=getnewpost Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taliesin Posted December 15, 2016 Share Posted December 15, 2016 I think Russ would have a fair chance of defeating Horus in combat, pre-Molech. Based on how things have been presented so far, it feels like it could go either way. Obviously after his Molech experience he is more powerful, but even then it would still be a tremendous battle to see Post-Molech Horus in action vs the Space Wolves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Runefyre Posted December 15, 2016 Share Posted December 15, 2016 Honestly, we don't have much evidence to say either way. We know Russ wasn't confident he could beat Horus as a general (at least that's the impression I got from VS, others opinions may vary). Plus we only have on instance of Russ fighting to the death (Night of the Wolf, and Johnson's dual don't count, they weren't true combat duals), and that was against the première psyker primarch. So it's hard to extrapolate just what Russ's true capabilities are. I've never got the impression that Horus was an exceptional fighter compared to his brothers. I think that Horus had the brightest mind of any primarch (you don't get the most victories by accident). Post-molech is a completely different story. I don't think anyone short of the Emperor can beat Horus now. I'm very curious to see Russ's reasoning behind going after Horus "alone" even after the knights-errant's failed in VS. What could he hope to accomplish? It's not like he's got WS's plot armour (I jest). Russ failed against a detachment of AL, what did he think he was gonna do against the full might of Horus's warmachine? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sete Posted December 15, 2016 Share Posted December 15, 2016 If Russ thought he could go for a kill vs a powered or non powered Horus with a depleted legion, after prospero and alpha legion, he made a huge mistake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronDrake28 Posted December 15, 2016 Share Posted December 15, 2016 I don't think Russ has any idea Horus got a power-up. I'm sure it was a 'I'm going down...but I'm taking you with me!' sorta deal. Rather than Russ just being a silly billy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Loss Posted December 15, 2016 Share Posted December 15, 2016 We know Russ wasn't confident he could beat Horus as a general (at least that's the impression I got from VS, others opinions may vary). In VS, he specifically wants to 'kill' Horus, after mentioning how he's fought all of his brothers in hand to hand over the centuries - he's clearly referring to taking him down man to man, not just defeating him as a general. Don't see how you can get the impression that he wasn't referring to trying to kill Horus himself. On the rest of your post, you're totally right, of course, and everybody has different ideas. It's impossible to accurately rank all of the Primarchs in combat ability, and it was silly of me to mention it on the first place on a forum. Amateur mistake. I think it's fair to say that Horus and Russ are both among the top Primarch fighters regardless of the nitty gritty details. I'm personally hoping for some good dialogue between Russ and Horus when they do meet, detailing the moment that Russ realises his brother isn't really his brother anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeritorA Posted December 15, 2016 Share Posted December 15, 2016 Honestly, we don't have much evidence to say either way. We know Russ wasn't confident he could beat Horus as a general (at least that's the impression I got from VS, others opinions may vary). Plus we only have on instance of Russ fighting to the death (Night of the Wolf, and Johnson's dual don't count, they weren't true combat duals), and that was against the première psyker primarch. So it's hard to extrapolate just what Russ's true capabilities are. I've never got the impression that Horus was an exceptional fighter compared to his brothers. I think that Horus had the brightest mind of any primarch (you don't get the most victories by accident). Post-molech is a completely different story. I don't think anyone short of the Emperor can beat Horus now. I'm very curious to see Russ's reasoning behind going after Horus "alone" even after the knights-errant's failed in VS. What could he hope to accomplish? It's not like he's got WS's plot armour (I jest). Russ failed against a detachment of AL, what did he think he was gonna do against the full might of Horus's warmachine? Impression that Horus was an exceptional fighter was mentioned/stated almost in every novel from the view of humans, SMs, his brothers etc. A wolf of ash and fire, Horus Rising, False Gods, First Heretic, Vengeful Spirit etc. etc. We know Russ wasn't confident he could beat Horus as a general (at least that's the impression I got from VS, others opinions may vary). In VS, he specifically wants to 'kill' Horus, after mentioning how he's fought all of his brothers in hand to hand over the centuries - he's clearly referring to taking him down man to man, not just defeating him as a general. Don't see how you can get the impression that he wasn't referring to trying to kill Horus himself. On the rest of your post, you're totally right, of course, and everybody has different ideas. It's impossible to accurately rank all of the Primarchs in combat ability, and it was silly of me to mention it on the first place on a forum. Amateur mistake. I think it's fair to say that Horus and Russ are both among the top Primarch fighters regardless of the nitty gritty details. I'm personally hoping for some good dialogue between Russ and Horus when they do meet, detailing the moment that Russ realises his brother isn't really his brother anymore. Even Sanguinius stated that Horus probably is better than him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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