Weregeld what happened to Russ? *spoilers*

[LaurieJGoulding]

I still find it really strange that the scene in question from 'Betrayer' started out as a conversation between me and ADB, and now it is still one of the most controversial scenes in the HH series.

 

I know he finds it mystifying as well. We just never thought it would polarise opinions so much - although I've seen dozens of instances where people *slightly* miss the point of the whole thing.

[Felix Antipodes]

RE: 'Prospero Burns', that is a very subjective POV from outsiders within the Legion. They are believing the SW's hype, totally. If we saw the events of the book from someone else's POV, it would look very different, like if there had been an Ultramarine or an Imperial Fist there...

 

RE: Ultramarines vs Night Lords, this is from the timeline document that we've compiled as the HH bible for all GW departments. Taken from a sideways reference in ADB's novels.

 

216.M31                  The Ultramarines and their Successor Chapters symbolically reform the XIII Legion in order to drive the Night Lords from Tsagualsa

 

RE: 'Inferno', it feels like a lot of people are hoping that this will be the great return to the days of when Dan's depiction of the VI was new and bright and exciting. Alan Bligh and his team have said at TWO events now, that they aren't following 'Prospero Burns' any more than any other source.

 

(Also, and I know this is an unpopular truth here for some reason, the background in those books is deliberately written to be a potentially unreliable narrator - the mysterious "A.K." So it's no more "true" than any other historical essay, written by the victors...)

 

Noting that a timeline document exists (as mentioned above) can you explain why GW has decided to remove exact dates from the timeline snippets in recent codices and supplements?  Or is this also a holdover from "the bad times" when GW didn't play nice with it's little brothers?

[Scribe]

I still find it really strange that the scene in question from 'Betrayer' started out as a conversation between me and ADB, and now it is still one of the most controversial scenes in the HH series.

 

I know he finds it mystifying as well. We just never thought it would polarise opinions so much - although I've seen dozens of instances where people *slightly* miss the point of the whole thing.

 

I feel I am at least partly to blame for much of the ongoing discussion, maybe.

[mc warhammer]

I still find it really strange that the scene in question from 'Betrayer' started out as a conversation between me and ADB, and now it is still one of the most controversial scenes in the HH series.

 

I know he finds it mystifying as well. We just never thought it would polarise opinions so much - although I've seen dozens of instances where people *slightly* miss the point of the whole thing.

primarch vs primarch tends to be polarising

 

i'm more interested in the character's own perceptions of who they can or can't beat (right or wrong). eg from memory: russ thinking horus is the only one he can't beat, or dorn having similar thoughts about night haunter. the khan confident he could defeat fulgrim in swordsmanship or corax believing the only primarchs who can take down angron to be horus and sanguinnius. or primarch ii thinking he could take down primarch xi etc

 

more for what it reveals about their thought processes and relationships than anything else

[bluntblade]

Maybe the fight with Horus needs a consolation build-up with Russ cleaving through the SoH lines. He dismembers the Reavers, perhaps killing Ekaddon as he does so, flattens a bunch of Justaerin and brings down a Leviathan dread (I'd love some Dreadnought characters who aren't Contemptors)... and then Horus emerges.

[Runefyre]

I would honestly rather have Russ's Wolf Guard vs Horus' Justaerin while the two are dualing. But Russ totalling a Leviathan sounds too badass to pass up!

 

In my own personal musings, I think that Russ's motives may have been to sacrifice himself up on a suicide mission to buy just a little more time for Dorn to finish preparations on Terra. It's the only logical way Russ would have attacked with such statistical lopsidedness and considering the Wolves were already shattered their loss would be Terra's gain and not felt too much. Not to mention getting a good death at the hand of a worthy opponent.

 

I still find it really strange that the scene in question from 'Betrayer' started out as a conversation between me and ADB, and now it is still one of the most controversial scenes in the HH series.

 

I know he finds it mystifying as well. We just never thought it would polarise opinions so much - although I've seen dozens of instances where people *slightly* miss the point of the whole thing.

I've said this before, but I really like that the event is polarizing for fans of both sides just like it is for the legions themselves in the books (i.e. both sides claim victory). Of course if you want to put the whole thing to rest and say once and for all who won I'd be much obliged (even if it's not the ruling I would prefer). Though it still confuses me why Russ doesn't put Angron's fight on his list of personal defeats if it was as lopsided as it appears upon first reading (ignoring Lorgar's comments).

[Scribe]

Because in the two fights he lost, he was KTFO.

 

Pretty hard to deny to ones self that they lost those fights.

 

In the case with Angron he crawls away, he's not 'beat' yet, just broken while Angron stands above him with time to look out at the Legions killing each other.

 

So not a loss yet. :p

[HeritorA]

I would honestly rather have Russ's Wolf Guard vs Horus' Justaerin while the two are dualing. But Russ totalling a Leviathan sounds too badass to pass up!

In my own personal musings, I think that Russ's motives may have been to sacrifice himself up on a suicide mission to buy just a little more time for Dorn to finish preparations on Terra. It's the only logical way Russ would have attacked with such statistical lopsidedness and considering the Wolves were already shattered their loss would be Terra's gain and not felt too much. Not to mention getting a good death at the hand of a worthy opponent.

I still find it really strange that the scene in question from 'Betrayer' started out as a conversation between me and ADB, and now it is still one of the most controversial scenes in the HH series.

I know he finds it mystifying as well. We just never thought it would polarise opinions so much - although I've seen dozens of instances where people *slightly* miss the point of the whole thing.

I've said this before, but I really like that the event is polarizing for fans of both sides just like it is for the legions themselves in the books (i.e. both sides claim victory). Of course if you want to put the whole thing to rest and say once and for all who won I'd be much obliged (even if it's not the ruling I would prefer). Though it still confuses me why Russ doesn't put Angron's fight on his list of personal defeats if it was as lopsided as it appears upon first reading (ignoring Lorgar's comments).

True. Would be a good show for Primarch provess and story to show how Russ 'get away' eventually. I do not think that Horus will let him leave. Cause Horus is on the end road and to leave alive Russ behind - nah, too unrealistic. Even in his pride he wouldn't be so stupid.

Because in the two fights he lost, he was KTFO.

Pretty hard to deny to ones self that they lost those fights.

In the case with Angron he crawls away, he's not 'beat' yet, just broken while Angron stands above him with time to look out at the Legions killing each other.

So not a loss yet.

It was a lesson of Angron, but the point is why it wouldn't have ever worked - is cause Russ believed to show something to Angron via brute force??? Yeahh, that went well

[LaurieJGoulding]

I think that's the thing that people can't grasp - there was no winner. (Ironically, it's exactly the same as arguing on the internet... the moment you do, you've lost. Everyone loses.)

 

Russ went in all bolshy and throwing his weight around, looking to reprimand or humble Angron. But that's like a red rag to a bull. Angron would have fought TO THE DEATH over something that Russ intended as a demonstration of authority (when he didn't really HAVE total authority, or sanction to do it). He initiated a fight, then realised that his deranged brother would be like a rabid dog, and gladly self-destruct rather than back down.

 

This isn't intended to show which primarch is stronger. It's supposed to show how upsetting mental illness can be.

 

Angron (and I say this as one of the biggest World Eaters fans ever) was a brain damaged, irrational monster. Russ wanted to put this upstart in his place, but instead kicked off a fight that should never have happened. When he realised this, and he saw how much damage his ill-thought-out actions could have, he walked away.

 

So Angron thinks he "won". Russ could have killed all of the World Eaters and their primarch, but decided not to... mainly because he realised that he himself had been a bit of a dick about it. A moral victory, but definitely a shoddy situation that he himself initiated.

 

Russ should be ashamed, and Angron should be muzzled. There's no victory here.

[LaurieJGoulding]

 

Noting that a timeline document exists (as mentioned above) can you explain why GW has decided to remove exact dates from the timeline snippets in recent codices and supplements?  Or is this also a holdover from "the bad times" when GW didn't play nice with it's little brothers?

 

 

Well, it would be inappropriate for me to comment directly on that with any authority... But, I believe the writers and editors in the Studio couldn't keep track of everything that had been written for 40k, and some of it was inherently contradictory.

 

Whereas BL's solution was to appoint someone to be in charge of making this stuff make sense and making sure everyone stuck to it, the Studio must have decided it wasn't worth the effort, perhaps? In fairness, we're talking about 9,000 years of timeline, with 90% of it in the last 100 years.

 

All I have to do is maintain about 1,000 years, with most of the focus on 14 of them.

 

Horses for courses, and all that.

[HeritorA]

I think that's the thing that people can't grasp - there was no winner. (Ironically, it's exactly the same as arguing on the internet... the moment you do, you've lost. Everyone loses.)

 

Russ went in all bolshy and throwing his weight around, looking to reprimand or humble Angron. But that's like a red rag to a bull. Angron would have fought TO THE DEATH over something that Russ intended as a demonstration of authority (when he didn't really HAVE total authority, or sanction to do it). He initiated a fight, then realised that his deranged brother would be like a rabid dog, and gladly self-destruct rather than back down.

 

This isn't intended to show which primarch is stronger. It's supposed to show how upsetting mental illness can be.

 

Angron (and I say this as one of the biggest World Eaters fans ever) was a brain damaged, irrational monster. Russ wanted to put this upstart in his place, but instead kicked off a fight that should never have happened. When he realised this, and he saw how much damage his ill-thought-out actions could have, he walked away.

 

So Angron thinks he "won". Russ could have killed all of the World Eaters and their primarch, but decided not to... mainly because he realised that he himself had been a bit of a dick about it. A moral victory, but definitely a shoddy situation that he himself initiated.

 

Russ should be ashamed, and Angron should be muzzled. There's no victory here.

Awesome contribution Laurie. A question through - 'Why you approved the scene in Leman Russ - then Russ 'being a dick' (because he and his sons were wrong) - said to his 'brother' Lion that he will gut him next time? If you supposed to show Russ pride - you miscalculated a little'

[LaurieJGoulding]

It's not solely about pride. It's possible for a primarch to make bad decisions - they all have.

 

In fact, have you heard about this guy "Horus"...?

[Legatus]

I dunno. From the description of the battle between the Wolves and the World Eaters it did look like the Space Wolves managed to achieve their tactical objective (surround and potentially take out the enemy Primarch) inspite of the total carnage that is a battle against the World Eaters. But on the other hand it also looked like Russ was soundly beaten and the Space Wolves overall were torn apart by the World Eaters. If the World Eaters were prepared to lose their Primarch if that meant completely demolishing the other Legion, and potentially also taking out their Primarch, then they achieved their own tactical objective as well. In fact, the World Eaters would have walked away with the overall victory, though with heavy losses.

 

I know Lorgar was convinced that Russ had made a strong point. But then it is Lorgar. He has his own view on things. A metaphorical point might be more important to him than a physical triumph.

[HeritorA]

It's not solely about pride. It's possible for a primarch to make bad decisions - they all have.

In fact, have you heard about this guy "Horus"...?

Has he done something bad?

Laurie by 'Russ could have killed all of the World Eaters and their primarch, but decided not to.' - you mean wit the help of hundreds of bolters right? Cause in 1 on 1 fight his chances are slim. That's not sad not wonna fight Magnus, lol

[Runefyre]

It's not solely about pride. It's possible for a primarch to make bad decisions - they all have.

In fact, have you heard about this guy "Horus"...?

Has he done something bad?

Laurie by 'Russ could have killed all of the World Eaters and their primarch, but decided not to.' - you mean wit the help of hundreds of bolters right? Cause in 1 on 1 fight his chances are slim. That's not sad not wonna fight Magnus, lol

Honestly, I think we don't know. We haven't seen enough of Russ fighting opponents other than Magnus to really comment on his true Primarch fighting skills. But I wouldn't really know who to put my money on. Could go either way.

[LaurieJGoulding]

Exactly. But I mean, really, honestly - does it even matter?

 

Russ could have shot Angron. Sure, that goes without saying. Would doing so have made him a coward, or just show that he was thinking outside the stultifying constraints of "what makes a real showdown". What war was ever won by a duel, really? If Russ and Angron had a boss fight, the winner would have been shot to pieces by the sons of the loser, in a heartsbeat.

 

The World Eaters took fewer casualties, yes. But the Wolves weren't trying to kill Angron at that point. They were MAKING a point.

 

Would Angron have killed Russ in a duel? Who knows? Is a contest always guaranteed to have the same outcome? (I guess that's why sports leagues are so popular, right? The same participants always win, yeah?)

 

Russ didn't want to fight to the death. He just wanted to humble Angron, who was supposed to be badass and rebellious. Unfortunately, he poked the hornets' nest.

 

===

 

Imagine I walk into your house with the rest of my hockey team, fully armoured, and tell you if you don't turn your music down then there will be serious consequences. But instead of just taking this for what it is (a display of unity and aggression designed to make you shut up) instead you pull out a hammer and urge all your mates to attack us. Both sides get some bloody noses, lose a few teeth. I call you a nutjob, decide not to pull a knife on you, and leave.

 

So who "won"? (More to the point, did you turn the music down as I demanded, or turn it up in celebration?)

 

Russ didn't think ahead about the consequences of his actions, which is something we see a lot. Angron reacted exactly as you'd expect, for a mentally deranged killer.

 

===

 

You know what this scene is? It's Indiana Jones shooting the Arabian swordsman. Is Indy a coward? No, he's just refusing to engage in the game on the terms that his opponent wants.

[Marshal Loss]

I think the real lesson here is that playing loud music around armoured knife wielding hockey editors is not a good idea unless your friends are world eaters

[Loesh]

Exactly. But I mean, really, honestly - does it even matter?

 

Russ could have shot Angron. Sure, that goes without saying. Would doing so have made him a coward, or just show that he was thinking outside the stultifying constraints of "what makes a real showdown". What war was ever won by a duel, really? If Russ and Angron had a boss fight, the winner would have been shot to pieces by the sons of the loser, in a heartsbeat.

 

 

Playing devils advocate here, but wars can and have been...especially in antiquity...won by single combats, just not often something to the macro scale of two kings choosing to slice each other to pieces on the battlefield. Now normally, in most science fiction or even modern settings this is actually completely stupid. The duelists in question would just be cut to pieces in a hail of gunfire.

 

But in 40k, organizations like the World Eaters and Palatine Blades exist for a reason, warfare has regressed. Technology has become so advanced that the battlefield has looped around into melee combat mixing with nuclear weapons. Armor is too tough for bolters to easily chew through anymore, void ships too massive and durable to simply be ripped apart, a lot of ship to ship combat is won when a pack of dreadclaws drills into the command deck and disgorges a company of champions to slay everyone on the deck. Sure Angron would of died, so would of Russ, and then all their forces would of descended into a disorganized mob of fighting. At that point it's hard to say who would win, it's entirely possible the wolves would of been cut down to the man...not that there would be enough world eaters to celebrate it.

 

Not that I think the Primarchs combat ability is what makes them strong. It's not, it's their mental ability, and Angron had precious little. Even if the World Eaters could win there in a battle where Russ and company are playing 'For Realz' probably not. Because it's not just the single combat, other organizations can do it almost if not as well, while augmenting it with more modern concepts of bombardment and killzones. It has it's merits, but the World Eaters focus on it to the point of being crippling.

[Marshal Rohr]

I think Primarch intelligence is always obliquely referenced because it's not a great narrative device for stories about a war game. Each one is more intelligent than all the greatest human minds of our history combined. In Know No Fear Guilliman is acting as an air traffic controller, supply chain manager, all the while he is writing an essay. IIRC, you're not allowed to work if you haven't slept 8 hours as an ATC, much less write a novel:D

[Mellow]

In a solo fight my money would always be on the 12 foot gladiator.

 

Also ... don't think that Angron had no mental agility. He still has a post human brain and can understand things way out of reach for a regular person. He is still a Primarch despite his unfortunate circumstances.

[Loesh]

In a solo fight my money would always be on the 12 foot gladiator.

 

Also ... don't think that Angron had no mental agility. He still has a post human brain and can understand things way out of reach for a regular person. He is still a Primarch despite his unfortunate circumstances.

 

But at the same time, compare what Angrons accomplished to the 500 worlds, the difference is staggering. The Empire building wasn't pointless either, the constant supplies and recruits delivered by the flourishing Ultramar empire made the Ultramarines one of the most potent legions in the galaxy.

[LaurieJGoulding]

I hope we'll get to see Angron in his pre-Nails state, at least once.

 

I imagine his early days to be much like the original Conan movie.

[SchultzChaos]

I hope we'll get to see Angron in his pre-Nails state, at least once.

 

I imagine his early days to be much like the original Conan movie.

 

Wheel?

[Arkangilos]

I hope we'll get to see Angron in his pre-Nails state, at least once.

 

I imagine his early days to be much like the original Conan movie.

I always pictured him more like Sparticus, personally. While Conan had a pit fighter streak, he doesn't really capture the Gladiator leading a major revolt against the slavers feel.

[Legatus]

When Angron was found wounded by the slavers he was nursed back to health and immediately received the bio-neural implants. At least that's how it reads in the World Eaters Index Astartes article. So here Angron's pre-nails life would have been roaming the wilderness or smaller communities on that world, until he was attacked by some Eldar, which left him in the wounded state he was later discovered in.