Tacticals just a tax? What troop choices to take?

[ShadowCore67]

My iron hand tacticals are great at holding backfield objectives. They may not be able to kill much but pseudo-toughness 5 and artificer armor makes them hard to move

[Baluc]

So I think we need to relax a little bit on the fragility of tactical squads. They actually do require some effort to remove, between line of sight, T4, 3+, or cover they actually do take a concerted effort to remove with shooting. Assault is a much different story however.

[panascope]

With Sons of Horus, I pretty much always take Mal and Vets, they're just too good not to. Sons aren't great at crossing the board even with Long March, so Outflank and Sniper are really compelling to me.

 

Aside from that, marching big squads of tactical marines across the table just isn't that fun to me. I like my guys to be doing things and being relevant and spending 2 turns getting my guys positioned isn't fun to me. Plus the points are so tight that dropping something like 400 points, an HQ slot, and an elites slot to make a tactical squad capable of crossing the board seems bad for something that's mostly made to sit on objectives.

 

I generally agree though, Pride is a bad Rite. Which is why I'm so glad Mal makes Vets troops.

[depthcharge12]

I like to use vets just because Maloghurst brings utility and I want to use Reavers as troops too without resorting to Black Reaving. Meh

[Lord Blackwood]

Wolves:
Im taking Russ so im taking Vets 

Imperial Fists:
Im taking an Armored Breakthrough list , Vets are good for my elite slots Predators are my Troop Choice

Dark Angels: 
Jetbikes and Outriders are my troops , no vets without a flyer so no vets ( though ...dreadclaws maybe in the future ) 

[Memento Of Prospero]

The use of the word tax is purely Competitive conjecture. Legions were made of tactical marines. It's the fluffiest thing ever to field.

[depthcharge12]

Despoiler blobs are fun lol. Though I'm tempted to take two true grit squads in case anyone deep strikes T1/T2 with Long March. Fury of the legion then you get to charge with relentless.

[Brofist]

When it comes to resilience to >AP3, Tacticals are the cheapest way to get warm bodies on the table for legion players. Terminators are the close second. Unlike Terminators, tacticals are only really good at camping objectives, which makes them the tech thralls of the Space Marine legions. Some legions do this better than others through morale or resilience.

 

The issue is that, at 125-225 points for a naked squad, they behave a lot like 75 point tech thralls. They don't output meaningful firepower and they crumple in melee against most semi-dedicated threats. Their lack of specialization, lack of meaningful firepower, or ability to tarpit makes them a rather 'overpriced' rearline auxiliary unit. Again, some legions are the exception to this, but for most folks that's the reality. To put it another way, if you want to camp your rear line objectives you can ally in a squad of tech thralls or a cult horde. Those clock in around the same points, do a better job, and bring a lot of other perks with them.

 

I love the idea of tactical squads, but even the one thing they are generally good at other things do better for less. They just aren't worth taking unless you have a strong justification for taking them (specific build, legion, style of play, etc).

[panascope]

It could be funny to do something like Sacrificial Offering and just swarm the board. 2x20 marines and 2x20 cultists would be an awful lot of guys to take down.

[Slips]

It could be funny to do something like Sacrificial Offering and just swarm the board. 2x20 marines and 2x20 cultists would be an awful lot of guys to take down.

I have already faced that but worse:

 

Sacrificial Offering:

 

1 Preator

2 Chaplains

2x20 Tac Marines Sarge w/ Fist and Arti

2x15 Assault Marines, Melta Bombs, Power Axes, Arti, Shield and Axe on Sarge

10 Gal Vorbak in Spartan, Arti and Fist on Sarge

3x  Apothecaries, Artificer Armour, Power Sword

2x Storm Eagles, Lascannons, Multimeltas

 

Planetary Overlord (or whatever) naked.

3x Max Grenadier Squads

1x Artillery Battery, 3 Medusa Cannons

1x 3 Medicae Detachment

[d@n]

 

Breachers infiltrated with a couple of graviton guns and a nuncio vox is the way go with alpha legion or ravenguard. They at least have a function. Were as tactical marines just tend to die doing nothing. You could reserve tacs and hope they come on late in the game and then use them to steal objectives but that's a lot of points for a one trick pony. Breachers at least give you board control with the grav guns and are Lot harder to shift plus the vox makes your mortars a lot better

You get 20 marines with AA Sarge, Melta Bombs and a Vox for the same points.

As long your opponent doesn’t shoot them with AP1,2 or 3 weapons AND your units don't use cover, they will last much longer.

Three wounds kill one marine no matter if he carries a shield or not. So where is the point?

The point is ;) that Breachers are made for ZM where they excell and not open battle where they die as easely to small Arms fire as all other marines in Power Armour.

Grav Guns are really cool but for 230 points? Come on.

except 30k is pact full of low ap and there's not a lot of small arms fire. Basic troops like grey slayers, inductii ,terror squads or even terminators will chew through a tactical squad far quicker then they will with a breacher squad

[Gorgoff]

 

 

Breachers infiltrated with a couple of graviton guns and a nuncio vox is the way go with alpha legion or ravenguard. They at least have a function. Were as tactical marines just tend to die doing nothing. You could reserve tacs and hope they come on late in the game and then use them to steal objectives but that's a lot of points for a one trick pony. Breachers at least give you board control with the grav guns and are Lot harder to shift plus the vox makes your mortars a lot better

You get 20 marines with AA Sarge, Melta Bombs and a Vox for the same points.

As long your opponent doesn’t shoot them with AP1,2 or 3 weapons AND your units don't use cover, they will last much longer.

Three wounds kill one marine no matter if he carries a shield or not. So where is the point?

The point is ;) that Breachers are made for ZM where they excell and not open battle where they die as easely to small Arms fire as all other marines in Power Armour.

Grav Guns are really cool but for 230 points? Come on.

except 30k is pact full of low ap and there's not a lot of small arms fire. Basic troops like grey slayers, inductii ,terror squads or even terminators will chew through a tactical squad far quicker then they will with a breacher squad

If 30k is pact full of AP3 stuff, why are Terror Squads or Inductii (which are :cussing Tactical Squads by the way!) a problem for you?

[Memento Of Prospero]

Because at the end of the day, once the attrition grinder has run it's course, the humble tactical squad cannot stand up to much.

[d@n]

Both terror squads and inductii have rules that make them more survivable

[RandomMarine]

I still field 2x 20 man tac squads with apocatharies , but I ply IH so they are real tough and I run autek as well so preferred enemy on a single fotl will delete most other infantry.

[depthcharge12]

I think people have been catching on to sniper vets and changing according to the meta. Quite a few lists I've seen lately include apothecaries to mitigate the AP2. 

 

If Mechanicum players cry about sniper vets, I can hardly shed a tear for them. Mechanicum lists can handle 20 3+ save marines quite handily. 

[Lord Asvaldir]

I still field 2x 20 man tac squads with apocatharies , but I ply IH so they are real tough and I run autek as well so preferred enemy on a single fotl will delete most other infantry.

 

Yeah if only it was easy to get 20 marines into rapid fire range and have an opponent who's going to leave you a good target for FotL. Just not that easy to have work out, Mor's rule is far more useful for something like plasma support squads. 

[panascope]

I think people have been catching on to sniper vets and changing according to the meta. Quite a few lists I've seen lately include apothecaries to mitigate the AP2.

 

If Mechanicum players cry about sniper vets, I can hardly shed a tear for them. Mechanicum lists can handle 20 3+ save marines quite handily.

Doesn't Sniper keep the Apothecary from working that well, since you can just use your Sniper hits to target him first?

[Lord Asvaldir]

Well precision shots only go off on a +6, then the apothecary gets a +4 LoS since he's a character, and still gets his saves unless you get a rending hit, so the chances of taking out the apothecary aren't great. That being said it's definetly a possibility though that he'll be sniped at the first opportunity. 

[panascope]

When you throw combi-weapons into it - specifically combo-plasma - I think that the Apothecary becomes a much worse choice to protect against Veterans. I play Sons of Horus and 30 Veterans with Combi-Plasma is my go-to troops choice.

[Oxydo]

One can always try to put the apothacary out of line of sight, which means he can't have shots allocated to him. Might be a bit of a niche solution, but it's doable.

[Withershadow]

How much do apothecaries really mitigate casualties, and would you be better off buying the Apothecary's weight in bodies?

[depthcharge12]

How much do apothecaries really mitigate casualties, and would you be better off buying the Apothecary's weight in bodies?

Are you asking rhetorically or in actuality? I'm sure someone would be willing to crunch the numbers but I've seen apothecaries eat plenty of plasma and sniper since they aren't S8. Stick your dudes in cover/night plus an apothecary and you'll do quite well - hypothetically in statistics. The math gods won't save you from habitually rolling ones however....

 

On the giving end of running 2 SoH and 1 DA vet squad, apothecaries infuriatingly eat up shots, especially combined with cover/++.

 

 

Edit:

 

I think I could sum it up better. S8 blasts? Better to take more bodies. Under s8? Go apothecary. Even against non AP2/3 weaponry, an apothecary would be better to assist your save.

[RandomMarine]

 

 

I still field 2x 20 man tac squads with apocatharies , but I ply IH so they are real tough and I run autek as well so preferred enemy on a single fotl will delete most other infantry.

Yeah if only it was easy to get 20 marines into rapid fire range and have an opponent who's going to leave you a good target for FotL. Just not that easy to have work out, Mor's rule is far more useful for something like plasma support squads.

Yeah its not the best use that would be a heavy culervin squad with attach mos in a stormlord or aggressively delopyed bunker

[ja_147]

Whats the best way to use tactical squad for Emperors Children?