duz_ Posted March 14, 2017 Share Posted March 14, 2017 So is it then worth to start AM? If GW is planing to put us way back in the field with little new support (or a total new range where much change), should I (and several other new players) really invest in a AM army based on Cadians and corrent miniatures? That sounds like guard since 3rd ed. So I wouldn't let that bother you. Similarly I've been waiting for plastic models other than catachans and cadians since then too... I could understand some hesitation with the new edition around the corner. However I can't see the guard lines or codex changing drastically with the new edition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorFish Posted March 14, 2017 Share Posted March 14, 2017 Guard have never been a top tier army, unfortunately I don't have much reason to ever expect that to change. I don't see a model revamp any time soon either as duz says, so if you want to start Guard that will likely not be a factor :) I've never seen anyone start Guard because they only want the strongest codex; we play Guard because we like them. I'd argue that's the best way to collect any army That Guard players have a tendency for various grades of lunacy is perhaps another matter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duz_ Posted March 14, 2017 Share Posted March 14, 2017 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harrowmaster Posted March 17, 2017 Share Posted March 17, 2017 I heard all armies will get new codexes all at once but guard won't get new models (unless they make new units) as the current cadians "are fine". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorFish Posted March 17, 2017 Share Posted March 17, 2017 This is news to me, where did you hear this? Sounds a bit suspect, as while the Cadians are indeed serviceable the same can not be said of other Guard ranges! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harrowmaster Posted March 17, 2017 Share Posted March 17, 2017 I heard it in my local GW, not sure how true it is though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canadian_F_H Posted March 17, 2017 Share Posted March 17, 2017 The only thing I expect is them to replace the 29 dollar box of ten with a 40 dollar box of ten (and similar changes to all other kits, like a new chimera that costs as much as the new genestealer tank) they may well make them more garish in appearance, and the box will come with more bits you can't use due to lack of bodies. Other then that, idk. I heard all armies will get new codexes all at once but guard won't get new models (unless they make new units) as the current cadians "are fine". If that is true, it'll be because the rules changed enough to invalidate every codex... they sorta did that with 3rd edition when every codex was rolled into the brb. I sure hope they aren't some rediculous $50 a piece codexes because I won't be able to play hardly any of my armies for a long time... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorFish Posted March 17, 2017 Share Posted March 17, 2017 I wouldn't put much stock in that then, unless your local GW is Nottingham perhaps ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harrowmaster Posted March 17, 2017 Share Posted March 17, 2017 It's not but staff were pretty adamant, they also said we'd get variable move values and a flat "to hit" roll, and all the codexes would drop around the same time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain_Krash Posted March 17, 2017 Share Posted March 17, 2017 Guard are a profitable line for GW. They wouldn't just squat them. I'd say there are also the most expensive $$$ wise army to collect and play effectively. IMO we don't need that much to bring up a tier competitively ie Drop point cost across the board, For the love of the emperor do something with Roughriders(weather it be "Bikes" or better rules" Revamp Ogryn rules maybe access to grav...(which could break the game potentially) but our model line isn't bad. It would be nice for more "plastic" choices but in all honesty we have like 7 various ranges to choose from for basic infantry, no other army can claim that. Also they really could use a special squadron rule so it's not so detrimental...Guard just need a "soft" update and it will be fine. Krash Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canadian_F_H Posted March 17, 2017 Share Posted March 17, 2017 Oh.. what guard needs. I thought the topic was what we expect... lol Needs? Return of lumbering or similar to the Leman Russ tanks. Regiment tactics (cadian, mordian, steel legion, catachan, etc) Drop rediculous point costs of character weapon upgrades. That would be "enough" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain_Krash Posted March 17, 2017 Share Posted March 17, 2017 need/expect it's all relative Krash Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harrowmaster Posted March 17, 2017 Share Posted March 17, 2017 Needs? Some better relics/points cut for current ones, a "decurion" detachment that doesn't require three buckets of infantry or enough leman russ tanks to enrage an opponent to be usable Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weaselfish Posted March 19, 2017 Share Posted March 19, 2017 Hopes for Rules changes: Orders go off auto within 12" or with vox (otherwise too far away to issue) PCS, CCS can blob with ANY platoon squads Can order from/to inside chimera/taurox Dedicated transports count as part of unit (fire/move/ECT with orders) World's without number: can elect to swap transport versions with any version in current IOM codex (must pay the price from that codex) Weight of fire: any model/ unit hit with lasguns suffers the following penalties for the rest of the turn (once wounds are scored): Hit by 15 shots - minus 1 AC (including invulnerable) Hit by 20 shots - minus 1 T Hit by 30 shots - no cover saves of any kind Russes gain back lumbering and split fire on main gun (sponsons shoot before ordinance, or snap fire). Squad Russes must target same unit with main guns (unless split fire order) HW teams get t5 Armory: 2 points: flamer, sniper, bolter, lascarbine 5 points: melta, plasma, HBolter, GLauncher, sbolter, HS lasgun, mortar 10 points: autocannon, Mlauncher (w/skyfire rounds), power weapon, plasma pistol, hflamer, HS volley 15 points: lascannon, power fist, melta bomb Following count as heavy: HBolter, mortar, autocannon, mlauncher, lascannon, HS volley Lascarbine: S3 AP5, assault 2 18" HS Lasgun: S4 AP3, rapid fire, 24" HS volley: S5 AP3, Salvo 2/4, 24" Mortar is now heavy 2 Vehicle upgrades stay the same plus: 10 points: veteran crew (+ 1 bs) 15 points Bird hunters (can elect to skyfire all weapons for a turn), tank hunter (2 dice for pen or damage) or monster hunter (wounds do D3 on MC) HQ 60 CCS base - medic, vox, & 4 vets commander always has carapace lasguns, pistols, and CCW all around 5 points for banner (stubborn within 12") Upgrades: 10 pts for carapace, 10 for cammo cloaks, all can take from list All officers are 15 points Commissars, priest get a 5 point reduction Primaris is now 40 points 30 points for techpriest AND one servitor (upgrades stay the same for servitors) 20 Tank commander stays same, can order up to 2 tank units to gain split fire, twin linked, bird/tank/monster hunter OR coordinate fire (give BS to all tanks within 12" for the turn) 30 tank commissar , 3 orders, 5 BS, same as above Psykers are 10 points, can't take gear Troops: 30 PCS, commander 4 guardsmen, vox Upgrades: 10 pts for carapace, 10 for cammo cloaks, all can take from list Can take Chimera, taurox, valkerie 50 infantry squad, lasguns HS Lasgun, Heavy bolter, vox, frag grenades Sergeant can take any non heavy from armory Upgrades: HS Lasgun and/or HBolter to any other 5 point from list free, any from 10 point for 5 5 points for Krak grenades Can take Chimera, valkerie 55 infantry combat squad, lascarbines, laspistols, CCW 2 Flamer, heavy flamer Sergeant can take any non heavy from armory Flamers can swap for non heavies from list 5 points for Krak grenades Can take Taurox, valkerie 50 Heavy weapon squad, 3 heavy bolters/mortars Upgrade to AC, ML for 5 points, LC for 10 40 special weapon squad Sergeant and 5 guardsmen with HS lasguns Sergeant and 2 others can take any non heavy in armory as an upgrade Can take valkerie Conscripts stay the same 60 Veterans take either lasguns or lascarbines. CCW, laspistols, frag and Krak grenades Either 3 hotshot lasguns, 3 heavy flamers All 3 can swap for any weapon in the armory (heavy weapons are held alone) Sergeant can swap for any non heavy Grenadiers and sentries stay the same, demo is 20 points Can take chimera, Taurox or valkerie Transports: 55 chimera multilaser and HBolter 12/11/10 Can swap either for HBolter, hflamer Can take Autocannon, TL HBolter for 5 points 40 Taurox same as before 100 Valkerie transport Lascannon for 5, rocket pods for 5, bolters for 10 Eletes: 100 Ogryns: add fnp 5+, 30 per model Ripper gun: S5 AP5 18" assault 3 (can be used in assault) Can take chimera 115 Bullgryns: add fnp 5+, 35 per model,can ADD mail and shield for 15 Can add Chimera 50 Wyrdvanes: 10 per extra, power level 2 if 10 models Ratlings: change to move-fire-move, can squad up or start game attached to units (1 per) Tempests platoon removed (have their own army) 30 Scout sentinel, multilaser Same upgrades, 5 points swap for HS Volleygun 10 points, add power claw 35 armored sentinel (see above) 50 Armored Scout Cavalry (Rough riders on cav/bikes/ECT) Add T4, jink, Lasgun carbines, 10 points per model 2 riders can replace carbine with non heavy from armory Sergeant can take any non heavy from armory Hellhound chassis get 25 point reductions and 11 rear armor 150 Vendetta, same with sponsors only costing 10 Leman Russ all get free pintle stubber, sponsons 10 points cheaper, no more gets hot on plasma, add HS volley sponson for 15 points Pintle mounts grant TL if they hit first Exterminators get rending, Vanquishers become SD on a 5 or 6 to hit 60 Hydra 100 basilisk 60 wyvern 150 manticore 150 Deathstike (now SD blast) Thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duz_ Posted March 19, 2017 Share Posted March 19, 2017 Haha reduced cost for the wyvren? People would cry. Would be easier if 8th ed just did away with upgrade costs all together Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canadian_F_H Posted March 19, 2017 Share Posted March 19, 2017 Idk about all that... but it would sell models since guard armies would have to increase in size to hit points requirements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KasrkinRyu Posted March 20, 2017 Share Posted March 20, 2017 Whilst not Guard I guess they come under the same banner, Id love to see a few simple updates for the Scion codex, even if it was a forge world release I would be happy. -A named character or two (scions have non) -Relics (scions have non) -Access to either the Vendetta or Vulture in a heavy support slot. Maybe price them high with extra BS like D-99. -Allow Tempestors and Primes to take Melta bombs, not just lord commissars Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indefragable Posted March 20, 2017 Author Share Posted March 20, 2017 I love the extensiveness of your thoughts! In general I have to agree that overall (our beloved Wyvern aside) IG units are about 20% more expensive then they should be in the current meta. Even 4pt Guardsmen makes an enormous difference when you're trying to field them in massed quantities: 100pts for a platoon rather than 130 is massive. The other "categorical" issue with Guard is that they are supposed to be a big, lumbering heavy force compared to more nimble forces like SM (generally speaking), Eldar, et al. The problem is that we are heavy without really being resilient or particularly dangerous at shooting. Worst offenders in that regard would be the Chimera and the Basilisk. AV12 Chimera with a 3-shot S6 gun is exactly the sort of statline that someone with a spreadsheet would think is good....until you realize it's BS3, AV10 on the sides, and almost double the cost of a Rhino. The Baslisk likewise sounds scary (S9 AP3 Large Blast!!!!!!!!!!)....until you realize it's BS3 (scatter), cover saves abound, and it's a single per Turn (so 5 shots in a game if you're lucky) for 125pts. Either cut it's points to 100 or less, or update it's rules so that it's reduces enemy cover saves somehow, 6's To Wound Ignore Cover, 5's are -2, 4's are -1, enemies hit by it suffer Strikedown/Crew Stunned, or must pass Dangerous Terrain/Morale checks next Turn. I mean, it's called the EARTHSHAKER cannon, after all. I also really like the idea of T5 Heavy Weapons Teams. They are gun-emplacements (modeled with sandbags, after all) and so should have artillery-lite rules. And can take camo netting that's +1 to Cover if they have not moved. T5 2W 5+ with a 4+ cover save represents the gun pits they should be. The kind of entrenched heavy weapons that an entire platoon would revolve around. Lastly, to hear myself mention it yet again, I think Commissars (and many other specialists) should enhance units rather than make them less worse. What does a Commissar currently do? Help them not fail Morale checks. They should be buffers that give +1A and re-roll 1's To Wound or something. The men around them are more terrified of hte Commissar then they are of the enemy....and the battlefield results show! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plasmablasts Posted March 20, 2017 Share Posted March 20, 2017 Quick thought: multilasers as infantry heavy weapons and heavy stubbers as specials. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indefragable Posted March 20, 2017 Author Share Posted March 20, 2017 Quick thought: multilasers as infantry heavy weapons and heavy stubbers as specials. I like the idea of Multi-lasers being the "standard" IG heavy weapon instead of bolters.....and they could benefit from FRFSRF as well? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stofficus Posted March 21, 2017 Share Posted March 21, 2017 Given priests have rendered Commissars completely useless from a rules standpoint, how about emphasize the training and leadership skills of a Commissar? Say, give Commissars the ability to issues junior officer orders to the squad they're attached to as well as some sort of defensive buff - like counter attack of BS2 overwatch to emphasize their "Hold the line!" mentality. As frankly, when for the same points you have a unit which gives fearless, hatred and the possibility of re-rolling all defensive rolls, they just serve no purpose - which is a common theme in the Guard codex - lots of completely useless or redundant units. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlamingDeth Posted March 21, 2017 Share Posted March 21, 2017 On the other hand, commissars just look way cooler. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SickSix Posted March 22, 2017 Share Posted March 22, 2017 I personally am praying for plastic Steel Legion to be the new poster boys of IG. And with 3rd War for Armageddon redux on the way, chances are better than ever! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain_Krash Posted March 22, 2017 Share Posted March 22, 2017 Agreed one of the best and seriously underrated metal lines they've ever produced. Praetorians coming first of course Krash Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H311fi5h Posted March 22, 2017 Share Posted March 22, 2017 If they do make a new plastic line, it probably won't have that real world look. I'd expect something more specific 40k-ish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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