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Returning to Guard after 15+ years


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#26
Thoridon

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I might get a few more boxes and build a tent, Commissar's Mess. They can have tea and scones in a corner while the Scions do their thing.

On a related note I'm starting to lean against the idea of using the Valhallans and Schaeffer's unit as veterans. While they'd fit within the rules, being metal models means what they have is what they get, and I'm just not seeing the benefit of a Vet squad with a bunch of lasguns, single flamer and melta. Starting to think I might just add them as an extra normal squad in a mixed regiment platoon (the Valhallans at least) as I think for a Vet squad I'd rather have them jumping out of a chimera with 3 plasma guns. As they are I'd be mostly paying for BS4 lasguns, in which case they'd be better off as part of a blob receiving extra fire orders.

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#27
duz_

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Unfortunately scions only get 1 order per turn not two

For the hellrain youd be better camping the taroux at the back and equipping it with the TL-MLs seeing as it wont recycle
If its still alive end of game it could flat out to claim / contest objectives

#28
Thoridon

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Ah, my bad, I got the Voice of Command mixed up with Senior Officer.

That just makes the no-vox decision easier, the Tempestor can focus his orders on his own unit until they go down and the Scions can keep doing their suicide-revive thing.

The idea with the Taurox at the moment is to run both the missile launcher and twin-linked autocannon to keep throwing high strength shots at T6 MCs from max range. Could put a lot of hits into them with that setup, though I then probably wouldn't want to risk it as a transport delivering an assault unit up close.

Edited by Thoridon, 11 February 2017 - 05:50 PM.

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#29
WarriorFish

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They can have tea and scones in a corner while the Scions do their thing.

You joke, but that's exactly what we do around the barracks tongue.png

 

Taurox Prime could be a good long range gunner to cause mischief, or a good place to shove the commissar (as a sort of mobile cafe).


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#30
Thoridon

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So I had another little trip to Forgeworld and despite intending to mostly get some specific models for my Blood Angels / Space Wolves I actually ended up getting a bunch of extra Guard.

- 2 Mordian squads (metal, Sergeant + 9 lasguns each)
- 1 Valhallan squad (metal, Sergeant + 9 lasguns)
- 1 Catachan squad
- 1 Catachan command squad
- 1 Cadian command squad
- 3 Wyrdvale psykers (metal)
- 2 Missionaries/Priests (metal)

The Mordians will be painted exactly the same as the Praetorians and be in the same platoon, just wearing different headgear. As they are lasgun-only it'll let me spread my metal Praetorian special weapons around better and provide bodies for a company command squad headed by the old Praetorian lieutenant model (in addition to the platoon command squad).

An extra Valhallan lasgun-only box solves the issue of my old Valhallan squad having 2 special weapons, as I can split the flamer and melta over 2 squads now. Of course now I wish I'd bought a 2nd box, to create a PCS, so I'll either have to mail order an extra set or see what I can put together from other models...

The extra Catachan squad was simply to balance out 2 platoons each having 3, which I plan to try running as 2 blobs of 30 each having a Priest (hence the 2 priest models). I like symmetry and having platoons of 30 and 20 was bugging me slightly for the catachans tongue.png The command squad for them will be built up as a Company CS, as I already have both PCS sorted, and allow me to field a full detachment of Catachan models.

I intend to run the Wyrdvale models as individual Primaris psykers, I just figured that pack of 3 was quite cost effective for adding some psykers which my Guard lacked completely.

I do now have bucket loads of infantry - nearly 200 models - so there's a little bit of painting ahead tongue.png

Edited by Thoridon, 21 February 2017 - 05:45 PM.

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#31
Thoridon

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So having a sick day is apparently dangerous for thinking... I'm now highly tempted to repaint my Valhallans as Praetorians in their cold weather gear.

Reasoning? The metal models and inflexibility inherent to them.

I have a standalone Catachan detachment completely flamer focused. 6 infantry squads split into 2 platoons, each squad having a flamer and the same in the platoon command squads. Whether running as separate 10-man units or being combined as 20 or 30 blobs they're still flamer focused, making them my anti-infantry regiment. It has a company command squad to focus on orders.

I then have my growing Cadian detachment, which currently looks like a small platoon of 2 squads with grenade launchers and then a Vet squad as the 2nd troops choice running 3x plasma guns. These would be aimed more at taking on elite infantry and MCs. There will also be a company command squad to sit back and issue orders.

That leaves me with my Praetorians, Mordians and Valhallans. After the recent purchases I have enough models to spread the special weapons out 1 per squad but they're set to their specific models. In total these old metal units have 2 flamers (1 Praetorian, 1 Valhallan), 2 meltaguns (1 Praetorian, 1 Valhallan) and 1 grenade launcher (Praetorian). As things stand they'd be mixing weapons if I did a Praetorian/Mordian blob of 30 and Valhallan blob of 20, with flamers and meltas at two opposite ends of the spectrum. I'm seeing three options for them:

A. Run as 10-man units so each squad can hit different targets with the specials.
B. Run as two distinct blobs. Praetorian/Mordian blob of 30 with flamer, melta and grenade launcher and Valhallan blob of 20 with flamer and melta.
C. Mix all the models up to merge the same weapons together. A blob of 20 with 2 flamers, a blob of 20 with 2 meltas and separate 10-man unit with grenade launcher.

The plus side of running as some kind of blob is that I can add a Commissar to them without feeling they're wasted, as I don't think they'd be worth it added to only 10-man units.

I think whichever way I run them they'll be designated as a single detachment under the command of a Praetorian company command squad. I either keep them with two distinct styles, and just say they're remnants of two regiments thrown together to remain operational, or I paint the Valhallans up in the Praetorian style and say they're wearing the cold weather gear. I could then mix the models up completely per squad so each would have some Praetorian, some Mordian, some Valhallan, but all be running the same red/black/white colour scheme. That could either look great or terrible.

Not quite sure which way to go!

Edited by Thoridon, 22 February 2017 - 04:17 PM.

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#32
WarriorFish

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Repainting is a serious task, not to be undertaken lightly!


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#33
Tallarn Commander

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I sometimes run squads from different regiments together and I've had no problems mixing the various types together.

Here is a photo from a pickup game I played last year.  You van see a combined Tallarn Valhallan lascannon-meltagun-power axe infantry platoon blob being lead by Brother Ziyad.

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My squads' shouder pads help my opponent and I keel track of the squads.  For example it looks like this blob's constituent parts consisted of a Jade Platoon Tallarn squad, a Blue Platoon Tallarn squad, and a Valhallan squad.  An adjacent blob might, for example, consist of 2 Tallarn Red Platoon squads and a Tanith squad, etc.

It would be bit different for you because it looks like your different regiments have different color schemes. But I think a combined blob featuring your different regiments' colors would nicely reflect the IG's sheer variety (plus you wouldn't have to repaint).

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#34
Thoridon

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Those models do all mix together nicely Tallarn. At first glance I didn't notice all the different models, with them using the same colour scheme. Quite effective.

When I say repaint the Valhallans only 5/10 of my original squad were painted, in the traditional white and green camo pattern. The other 5 were only primed white, so with the new 10 models that leaves 15/20 still to paint. I think what I might do is paint one of the old primed Valhallans up in 'winter Praetorian' theme and see how it would look mixed in. It might not work as well as yours has, given both your Tallarn and Valhallan models have similar 'coats/robes', but if it works it'll be easy enough to repaint the original 5 to match.

In a way it's the ideal solution, merging together different old models to form a detachment the way the Guard might combine remnants of different units into a new regiment after their original formations suffered devastating losses. In this case as I have the Praetorian commander to head up the company command squad the surviving Mordians and Valhallans would be placed under his command with uniforms dyed to match and be identified on the battlefield.

It would provide a detachment for all my 'misfit' models, survivors from previous campaigns to continue the fight, while the Catachans and Cadians are complete detachments still at operational strength without being bolstered by reinforcements from elsewhere.

Edited by Thoridon, 22 February 2017 - 05:26 PM.

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#35
Thoridon

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While working on a test red Valhallan paint (I'll have a picture soon) I've had another bit of a rethink for the Cadians.

My plan with them was to run a basic 3-squad platoon with grenade launchers, which I then adapted to a 2-squad grenade launcher platoon and the 3rd unit being triple-plasma Veterans in a Chimera. After looking at all my units today I realised I probably have enough basic infantry without them, as between the Praetorians, Mordians, Valhallans and Catachans I have a total of 11 infantry squads. That's 110 models, plus all the various PCS and CCS that go with them (another 30 or so more).

I'm now thinking the Cadians would be fairly redundant as more basic infantry and instead would be better as a dedicated mechanised Veteran detachment, all running 3x special weapons and mounted in Chimeras. Not only would this work on the tabletop, bringing a bunch of anti-MC special weapons into play, it would also fit well from a modelling perspective as the newer Cadian kits 'look' better geared. Their extra chest armour would make a good visual representation of the upgrade to +4 (compared to barechested Catachans and others in dress uniform) and all the Cadian boxes come with loads of extra little accessories to make them look more prepared.

While I like the theory of my Cadians being completely Veteran units, the flaw is a lack of special weapons. I just realised I have a total of 4 plasma guns on sprues (2 from the Cadian command squads, 2 from the Militarum Tempestus box). As I wanted all my Scions running plasma, to do this with Cadian veterans too would require a truckload of plasma guns I simply don't have. I think I'd be needing the following:

Scion Squad = 2 Plasma Guns
Scion Command = 3 Plasma Guns
3x tri-Plas Veteran Squads = 9 Plasma Guns
2x quad-Plas CCS = 8 Plasma Guns

Total = 22 Plasma Guns required.

Eek!

Though now I'm seeing the Chimera only has 2 fire points from the top hatch (in addition to the lasgun arrays) in the latest rules, would it make more sense for mechanised Vets (and mechanised CCS) to only run 2x special weapons each, as the 3rd (or 4th) would be wasted as long as they're inside? That would at least make it 9 less required, so only 13 to find...

The current thinking is to have the Cadians staying in Chimeras to zip around and counter enemy MCs approaching my lines. Plasma guns from the units inside and Multilaser and Heavy Bolters on the Chimeras should be able to put quite a few wounds in, and if the transport gets desroyed any surviving Vets could continue on foot as by that time they'd already be in a fairly advanced position. Any Scions I use would be to deep strike for the same purpose, countering MCs, but these would jump in expecting to be destroyed within a turn or so.

Anyhow... I think that makes sense, as I don't really need the extra basic infantry platoon. I just need to look through all my old space marine sprues to see if they have plasma guns hidden away at all.

Edited by Thoridon, 23 February 2017 - 03:20 PM.

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#36
robofish7591

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If you have any spare combi plasma bits, I remember seeing a conversion a while back of a combi plasma spliced with a lasgun to make a convincing plasma gun.  Its another idea to consider at least, hope it helps.


Edited by robofish7591, 23 February 2017 - 03:51 PM.

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#37
Thoridon

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Thanks, I'll keep an eye out for those smile.png Though most of my old sprues are from before combi-weapons were around.

You'll notice I tend to spend a while making plans and then changing them around until I'm sure enough that everything is set properly before building and painting new units tongue.png

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#38
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Right, the painting isn't complete (still face detail etc. to be finished) but I wanted to quickly do the paint scheme on one Valhallan model to see how it would look mixed in with the Praetorians and Mordians.

vrQV0a6.jpg

SnVzngk.jpg

I think I'm happy with that. The Valhallan models are a little bulkier with the thick coat they're wearing but with the sleeve cuffs providing the same white trim and that shoulder buckle for a touch of yellow I think they actually fit in quite well. I already have a difference between the Praetorian and Mordian headwear so this is just another bit of variation.

Though I hadn;t thought of this until yesterday I do like the feel it would give with all my old metal Guard operating together, remnants of previous campaigns combined to remain operational.

I'm also not sure on Black vs Brown leather boots for the whole lot, but that'll be a simple thing to change if needed before putting proper bases on the whole lot.

I think the test works and I'll paint the rest of my Valhallans up this way.
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#39
WarriorFish

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Colours look good :tu: If you're not planning on dismounting then yes, two weapon Vet squads makes sense :)


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#40
duz_

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You can always use space marine special weapons and cut the hands
You are correct though guard sprues are old and lack the options of the PA cousins

#41
Thoridon

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Ta smile.png

That's why I'm trying to figure out now with the transports.

I do like the idea of them staying mounted until the Chimera is destroyed, as it negates their T3 for a while. Having 6 others inside able to fire the lasgun arrays at different targets is also a plus, though it drops them from BS4 to 3 using those. There's a lot of split fire opportunity staying inside. That said, to make the most of the plasma guns I'd really need to advance within 12" of a target. That's probably going to result in the Chimera being charged the following turn, and with low rear armour there's a good chance it'd be taken out. If it's wrecked that isn't too bad, and even provides some cover for them to use. Explosions would be put look, but with 3-4 unsaved wounds suffered on average and 2 specials out of 10 models there's a good chance the plasma guns would survive. It would of course cut the potential plasma fire by a third, though that also keeps the unit cheaper to field other stuff.

If I run them close and then dismount I avoid the potential explosion (assuming it's not destroyed en route) and get the extra plasma gun, but then after shooting I'm going to be within 12" of either the surviving MC (if 6 rapid fire shots don't kill it) or other enemy units ready to assault in revenge. I don't think a squad of T3 vets would survive long after dismounting so this could easy make them a 1 shooting round and done kind of unit, though I could of course hope to only lose lasguns in the enemy assault and try to have allied assault units close by ready to help out and try to free them.

The simple solution is to have a few spare models so I can run 2 or 3 specials depending on what I want each game, but as I need to source a million plasma guns anyway I'll probably start with 2 tongue.png

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#42
Tallarn Commander

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Those colors look really good!

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#43
Thoridon

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I've been through all my old sprues and 0 plasma guns there, hmph. I do have 5 on my new Space Wolf sprues (Ironclaw strike force and Start Collecting boxes) but I don't want to use those yet as I haven't decided how to build/gear them. 25 wolves I can build up as grey hunters or blood claws - if I make some grey hunters they may well get a plasma gun, blood claws not, so I'll have to see with them. Potentially a couple of spare plasma guns though, in addition to the 2 my Scions came with.

It is a bit frustrating that special weapons are so sparse, particularly on units that are designed to run multiple. I guess I'm just going to have to order some of those packs of 6!

It also means my Scion and Vet squad building will be on hold until I have enough plasma to go round.

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#44
Thoridon

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It's been a while since my last update but as you can probably guess things are on hold now until 8th is here (or at least more details). I have a bunch of half-built stuff, mosttly the Cadians, which will stay that way until we see what the new stats are like and which options are available. No point building things now that might need to be completely different in another month or two!

I'll use the time before 8th to finish painting existing models - a metal Guardsman with a lasgun is always going to be a metal Guardsman with a lasgun smile.png
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#45
WarriorFish

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That's a good plan. In all likelihood not that much with change for Guard but the potential for some units that were left behind to get a buff is good - otherwise you'll always need a lasgun Guardsman ;)


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#46
Thoridon

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Right, so... I'm glad I put things on hold until 8th, and then again until the Codex!

 

Before I was structuring my different regiments with themes but no in-game bonuses for them. Now we have the Regimental doctrines and orders some of my plans are reinforced (yay Catachans) and others I think I'll be adapting. My old plan was...

 

Catachans: Flamers everywhere, aggressive officers.

Mixed old metal Praetorians / Mordians / Valhallans: Line infantry with mixed specials (metal, so inflexible).

Cadians: Veterans with Plasma/Melta, possibly mechanised. Pask plus extra tanks.

 

The news in the last few days has been awesome for my Catachans. I already played them aggressive with flamers and that's exactly how they'll stay, with the extra Strength being brilliant. I'll also be adding a few more power weapons to sergeants and officers as a result. With the doctrine for rerolling DX vehicle weapons the Flamer Sentinels will get a much needed boost and I'll be keeping my Demolisher, Battle Tank and Basilisk here. I'll probably also add a second of each vehicle to run them in pairs, with one of each Russ variant getting a Commander too for orders. That'd give me 60-70 aggressive flamer/assault infantry with extra flamer support and close range, long range and artillery firepower. Perfect!

 

The Praetorians/Mordians I think will run those Mordian rules and stay as my less aggressive infantry. While I'd be looking to charge with my Catachans I'd maybe look to receive charges with these guys, given the overwatch boost. I don't think I'd add any vehicles here.

 

For my Valhallan models I'm not sure. Having painted up a test Valhallan in Praetorian colours I could still add them to that regiment and run them with Mordian doctrine etc. but I'm highly tempted to get some more and use these as Conscripts using the Valhallan rules. I'd be highly tempted to then add a Stormlord to drop those Conscripts off and then be a durable super-heavy with the extra degredation. It'd mean a few purchases (as I have 2x infantry squads plus 1 officer currently) but the more I think about it the more I want to run them with their specific doctrine rather than merging them with my other old metals.

 

The Cadians I was gearing up to be mechanised Vets. I already picked up 3 of the old metal Plasma and 3 metal Meltas to form 2 Vet squads and I have unbuilt Chimeras to use, the idea being they'd sit back a bit in vehicles ready to respond to threats, drive into position and then unload to fire. I still like the idea, the problem is Cadian doctrine doesn't really add anything as the plan involves moving. I wasn't going to run these specifically as Cadians (they'll be in Starship Troopers colours) so the regiment name isn't an issue for me, but I'm not sure which set would work best for them. I don't want to use either Catachan or Mordian as I'd have those already, or Valhallan if I go the Conscript route with them. Steel Legion would possibly be a good fit for extra range on the Plasma squad and the transports ignoring -1 AP, plus "Steel" kinda fits with a lot of grey... and the Mount Up order would be brilliant to drop off the squad, fire at the threat and then mount back up for safety.

 

That leaves me with what to run as Cadians, as I've already picked up Pask. I was going to give him one of my existing tanks and run a trio (Pask plus 2 normal tanks) so he can issue orders to the other 2 but as I'm keeping the DX variants as Catachan now I think I'll look at the fixed-shot weapons. As Cadians get the rerolls for not moving I'm then thinking I should look at one of the medium-longer range variants but the Vanquisher still seems underwhelming and the Plasma variant has the nasty self damage issue. A Punisher could be the way to go as many say but then with 24" range he's going to need to move a lot, thus not utilising the doctrine, and might have range issues. I'll have to have a think about which variant he and his buddies will get. I might just run a small Spearhead detachment of Cadian tanks to get Pask in play or I might expand on them to focus heavy weapons teams here too, given they'd get the rerolls for not moving. That can be provided for other regiments via orders, though...

 

Still some thinking to do, but at least I'm certain where the Catachans are headed!

 

Edit: Oh, I do of course have my Scions yet to assemble for 'deep strike' plasma which it seems will need to be a separate regiment too. For reference I wouldn't use all the different regiments in the same game, but take different regiments for different games with a bit of mix 'n match depending on how I want to play. As each would have a different theme/style it would mean I can have lots of different approaches in different games.


Edited by Thoridon, 29 September 2017 - 04:26 PM.

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#47
Guardsman Bob

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[/i]For a picture, here's a very old (and only primed) metal Sentinel:sdzSfKm.jpgThat looks like an assault cannon to me, which a sentinel can't use. To fit that in with current rules I'd say the closest weapon it could pass for is the basic multi-laser. Maybe I can find an old spare lascannon to chop the end off and attach on here? Though that would make the gun a bit long in proportion to the 'body'. I'd also say it has to be the Scout version, being open-topped.

That’s odd mine had more Gatling tubular weapon on it. I’m about 80 percent sure it was always the multilaser. In the 90s GW was still working on improving model quality and consistency from the Rogue Trader bad old days.

At any rate your thread is drudging up all kinds of nostalgia here. Thanks.
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8th Edition is definitely the reform that 3rd Edition should have been. So they’re only twenty plus years late. Not bad, could have been worse.

#48
Guardsman Bob

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Edit: Oh, I do of course have my Scions yet to assemble for 'deep strike' plasma which it seems will need to be a separate regiment too. For reference I wouldn't use all the different regiments in the same game, but take different regiments for different games with a bit of mix 'n match depending on how I want to play. As each would have a different theme/style it would mean I can have lots of different approaches in different games.

A Batallion Detachment with three min Scions Squads, a Lord Commissar, and a Prime is an affordable three Command Point slam dunk.
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8th Edition is definitely the reform that 3rd Edition should have been. So they’re only twenty plus years late. Not bad, could have been worse.

#49
Thoridon

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Aye, I have no complaints over Scions needing their own detachment. It's a good excuse to build more deep striking plasma :) In the meantime I can run them as a small patrol detachment with the Get Started box.

 

I'm assuming that ancient Sentinel is a Multilaser and it will be run as one... when I decide if it's Cadian or "Steel Legion" :P Been enjoying working through all the old models and seeing how they fit with the new rules. It's even easier now in 8th with officers being single models and not needing command squads around each of them. Plenty of scope for 'different' models to become platoon commanders.


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#50
Altasmurf

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The old sentinel was from 2nd edition and they were indeed assault cannons. When sentinels were ported to 3rd they became multi lasers.




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