Conn Eremon Posted February 6, 2017 Share Posted February 6, 2017 Has anybody broken down the Legion lore sections yet? Or are we just not gonna that anymore? I'm not sure anyone's had time to read it, yet. I've only finished the campaign section and have just gotten about 2/3rds of the way through the VIth Legion section, and I'm only that far because I've been trapped in an airport for 12 hours. It's incredibly dense, even for a black book. There are times where there are a few pages straight of just text, no pictures whatsoever. Take your time and enjoy the book. I am also heavily interested in the lore sections for both Legions, but I'm sure you or others would give better write-ups after you've consumed it in its entirety, rather than piecemeal depriving context. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1ncarnadine Posted February 6, 2017 Share Posted February 6, 2017 Has anybody broken down the Legion lore sections yet? Or are we just not gonna that anymore? I'm not sure anyone's had time to read it, yet. I've only finished the campaign section and have just gotten about 2/3rds of the way through the VIth Legion section, and I'm only that far because I've been trapped in an airport for 12 hours. It's incredibly dense, even for a black book. There are times where there are a few pages straight of just text, no pictures whatsoever. Take your time and enjoy the book. I am also heavily interested in the lore sections for both Legions, but I'm sure you or others would give better write-ups after you've consumed it in its entirety, rather than piecemeal depriving context. Fair. If I do a write-up, I'm likely to just gather up a lot of the posts I've made and edit them into a bigger one to save time, though. Sometimes it's easier for me to get some thoughts out right away. The Exemplary Battle sections are daunting! The Wolves have like 6 Exemplary Battles!!! Geez Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xin Ceithan Posted February 6, 2017 Share Posted February 6, 2017 Wow, I need that book in my life! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandlemad Posted February 6, 2017 Share Posted February 6, 2017 That's... huh. I think I feel the same way about that as Scribe. In a sense it kind of cheapens all the TS who aren't Ahriman, and there are quite a few interesting characters. On the other hand, it is compelling in a grand conspiracy style. It's always been Ahriman and Magnus centrestage, really, and this is about the only way to ladle on even more pathos to their relationship. I guess just because someone's a... Tzeentchian semi-illusion doesn't necessarily mean they're not also a 'real boy'. Heavens know Ahriman: Unchanged had more than a few characters who were illusions or memory-creation/tulpas and they were still interesting.Gonna need to digest this. It might be the most high-stakes bit of labyrinthine warp-nonsense ever, even for Tzeentch. Whether by his pen or his subtle influence, it's got John French's fingerprints all over it... For general legion lore, Drake over at BattleBunnies has broken down the VI legion great companies by specialty and size. Some decent kennings in those company titles and looks like we have a clear-ish idea of the legion size, in general and at Prospero. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xin Ceithan Posted February 6, 2017 Share Posted February 6, 2017 The Kson's spoiler puts my intended character ideas for my gaming group's Black Crusade- Legion Wars shenanigans through all sorts of "oh, my.." moments. Maybe we are just letting the Kson issue on a slow burn for now. I was waiting for the fluff from Inferno anyways, regarding the Cults and all. This will require some thinking.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted February 6, 2017 Share Posted February 6, 2017 Yeah Sandlemad, we are of the same opinion I think. :] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1ncarnadine Posted February 6, 2017 Share Posted February 6, 2017 Finished the Wolves section, and I was 110% wrong about 6 different exemplary battles. They're sub-sections of one very large battle. Jumped the gun a bit when I saw tons of big bold headers. Not sure how I can write a summary for a Legion lore section like that. It is so incredibly packed with stuff. Amazing. I think I'll break it down into my favorite noteworthy bullet points for some sections. Russ being the 2nd Primarch discovered means there's a huge amount of history here, and quite a bit more on the Rangdan Xenocides. And yeah, I'm still unpacking that weird Prospero endgame bit myself. It could very well be nonsense, as it acknowledges that it's very difficult to tell how much influence "some so-called 'Chaos god'" really could have had. I wonder if they'll obfuscate this further by the Siege and throw more zany theories at us by then. Maybe the Thousand Sons spent more than 10 years on the Planet of the Sorcerers? Maybe they did manage to implement a rapid indoctrination process and maybe that made the flesh change even worse, hastening Ahriman's need for the Rubric afterwards? It's tough to say. And again, I have to wonder how much a difference it would really make in the end. The souls of the Thousand Sons are all owed to Tzeentch regardless, for they have long supped from a poisoned chalice without questioning their drought. They're doomed to be drawn down dark and twisting paths for the power they've taken and the pacts they've made, whether they like it or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jareddm Posted February 6, 2017 Share Posted February 6, 2017 Finished the Wolves section, and I was 110% wrong about 6 different exemplary battles. They're sub-sections of one very large battle. Jumped the gun a bit when I saw tons of big bold headers. Not sure how I can write a summary for a Legion lore section like that. It is so incredibly packed with stuff. Amazing. I think I'll break it down into my favorite noteworthy bullet points for some sections. Russ being the 2nd Primarch discovered means there's a huge amount of history here, and quite a bit more on the Rangdan Xenocides. And yeah, I'm still unpacking that weird Prospero endgame bit myself. It could very well be nonsense, as it acknowledges that it's very difficult to tell how much influence "some so-called 'Chaos god'" really could have had. I wonder if they'll obfuscate this further by the Siege and throw more zany theories at us by then. Maybe the Thousand Sons spent more than 10 years on the Planet of the Sorcerers? Maybe they did manage to implement a rapid indoctrination process and maybe that made the flesh change even worse, hastening Ahriman's need for the Rubric afterwards? It's tough to say. And again, I have to wonder how much a difference it would really make in the end. The souls of the Thousand Sons are all owed to Tzeentch regardless, for they have long supped from a poisoned chalice without questioning their drought. They're doomed to be drawn down dark and twisting paths for the power they've taken and the pacts they've made, whether they like it or not. Or maybe the energy came from the Thousand Sons from the future who were already on the Planet of the Sorcerers? Maybe that's why Magnus needed the planet removed from the Eye of Terror in WoM, so it and everyone on it could be consumed, paradox-style, so that the Thousand Sons 10,000 years earlier could get off Prospero in the first place? Or maybe it's not that the act killed the other Thousand Sons, it merely stole their free will. Though to an immortal god, is there really a difference? Like the Alpharius origins, and the LotD origins, I love when there's enough there for lots of contradicting theories, without resorting to nonsense like, "It's the missing legions!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted February 6, 2017 Share Posted February 6, 2017 According to BattleBunnies, and assuming an average size of the missing two Great Companies based off of the other eleven, the Space Wolves are only just larger than the Raven Guard, by maybe a couple thousand. Math was all in my head, so I could be off somewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jareddm Posted February 6, 2017 Share Posted February 6, 2017 According to BattleBunnies, and assuming an average size of the missing two Great Companies based off of the other eleven, the Space Wolves are only just larger than the Raven Guard, by maybe a couple thousand. Math was all in my head, so I could be off somewhere. I had thought that the numbers provided were each Great Company's strength at Prospero, meaning separate elements from lots of different Great Companies could be missing, in addition to two full Great Companies. Like Sepp, for instance, could have had a max size of 5,500 but 300 were off on other campaigns. If that's the case, I feel mean imputation, like you did, would be too much of an underestimate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1ncarnadine Posted February 6, 2017 Share Posted February 6, 2017 The Wolves were 130,000 for a while (~10,000 per Great Company), but due to some literally undisclosed reasons they are mysteriously down to about 100,000 by Prospero. 73,200 join the Censure Host, and the Wolves lose about 25,000 casualties on Prospero by the end. Puts them at about 75,000 total afterwards, but tellingly they have expended pretty much all of the Legion's ammunition reserves and are in no shape for combat at all as the Heresy starts and Horus begins the Isstvan III massacre. (and yes, if those numbers seem like light casualties compared to wiping out 60,000 Thousand Sons you are correct. The Wolves make out like bandits in this and prosecute most all of Prospero themselves) Only 982 Custodes present and ~3000 Sisters too, if anyone was wondering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m_r_parker Posted February 6, 2017 Share Posted February 6, 2017 I had literally just snapped pics of the various pages showing the force disposition for Prospero, and these types of posts are starting to come up. Well - take a look for yourself: Loyalist - Terran: http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t272/m_r_parker/Events/HH%20Weekender%202017/83DDD972-167F-4053-B501-3A6A6EB5C6D3_zpsziwpfmij.jpg Loyalist - Beta-Garmon http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t272/m_r_parker/Events/HH%20Weekender%202017/97020D81-4D7D-4A1F-9275-9E27B2742D3E_zpsyewg2ehr.jpg Traitor - Prospero: http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t272/m_r_parker/Events/HH%20Weekender%202017/5E3434A9-A2F5-4471-834A-64D14B79BF0C_zpshthvzgfe.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted February 6, 2017 Share Posted February 6, 2017 According to BattleBunnies, and assuming an average size of the missing two Great Companies based off of the other eleven, the Space Wolves are only just larger than the Raven Guard, by maybe a couple thousand. Math was all in my head, so I could be off somewhere. I had thought that the numbers provided were each Great Company's strength at Prospero, meaning separate elements from lots of different Great Companies could be missing, in addition to two full Great Companies. Like Sepp, for instance, could have had a max size of 5,500 but 300 were off on other campaigns. If that's the case, I feel mean imputation, like you did, would be too much of an underestimate. Was about to edit my post to say I completely missed this "Force size at time of Prospero approx 95,000 to 100,000 (see page 24 of Inferno for 11 Companies at an approximate 73,200 as part of the Censure Host)." At least my mental math was on the dot, as 73.2 was what I got. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jareddm Posted February 6, 2017 Share Posted February 6, 2017 "Overseer Boros Kurn, Commander of the 16th Independent Assault Battalion, XVIth legion and Emissary of the Warmaster I need to know more about this guy. My theory that Horus sent a courier to deliver the change in orders to Russ may be confirmed! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Athrawes Posted February 6, 2017 Share Posted February 6, 2017 So that's pretty huge. Possibly 90,000 XV Legion, with only Appx. 62,000 on Prospero. With the 3,000 that survived, that means that there could be around 30,000 Thousand Sons spread around the Galaxy, that's actually a sizable force considering that the wolves have 75,000 after Prospero. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1ncarnadine Posted February 6, 2017 Share Posted February 6, 2017 So that's pretty huge. Possibly 90,000 XV Legion, with only Appx. 62,000 on Prospero. With the 3,000 that survived, that means that there could be around 30,000 Thousand Sons spread around the Galaxy, that's actually a sizable force considering that the wolves have 75,000 after Prospero. There aren't too many in that 30,000 that make it unfortunately. It looks like a big number, but there are actually only two contingents off Prospero that don't get efficiently murdered (by the Ultramarines in one instance and the Imperial Fists in another). One is on Zhao-Arkhad and books it with some rogue elements of the Taghmatas there, and the other... I can't remember. It's maybe 10,000 Sons between them and that's about it. So a grand total of maaaaaybe 15,000 Sons after Prospero scattered about the galaxy, and that's pretty liberal. I'm including an extra 2000 in there as it implies that there are a lot of scattered 100-200 strong contingents that get away, and there are a certain number that do mount a daring escape from Prospero itself while the Custodes are departing. They speed off into space but have no warp drives, so the Censure Host just assumes they're doomed. HAH. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted February 6, 2017 Share Posted February 6, 2017 Are we just not doing Solar Cohorts being 120,000 strong anymore? That's a massive change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Athrawes Posted February 6, 2017 Share Posted February 6, 2017 Could you expand a bit on the Ultramarines and Imperials firsts that attack the Thousand sons? What were the circumstances? Edit: They're still in better shape than the Slamanders and Raven Guard were after Istvaan, though of course the Raven guard still have Deliverance and the Emperor/Corax's Super fast rebuild effort. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1ncarnadine Posted February 6, 2017 Share Posted February 6, 2017 Could you expand a bit on the Ultramarines and Imperials firsts that attack the Thousand sons? What were the circumstances? Edit: their still in better shape than the Raven Guard were after Istvaan, though of course the Raven guard still have deliverence and the Emperor/Corax's Super fast rebuild effort. Yeap. 2000 Thousand Sons under Sentor Rahme of the Ninth Fellowship are murdered in their encampments by the Ultramarines somewhere, and another 300 veterans of the 7th are abandoned to their deaths by the Imperial Fists while they're engaged in a dangerous compliance. Survivors are 5,000 of the 4th Fellowship who got word and bailed on their Crusade assignment, and the several thousand I mentioned on Zhao-Arkhad (6th Fellowship). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted February 6, 2017 Share Posted February 6, 2017 Could you expand a bit on the Ultramarines and Imperials firsts that attack the Thousand sons? What were the circumstances? Edit: their still in better shape than the Raven Guard were after Istvaan, though of course the Raven guard still have deliverence and the Emperor/Corax's Super fast rebuild effort. Yeap. 2000 Thousand Sons under Sentor Rahme of the Ninth Fellowship are murdered in their encampments by the Ultramarines somewhere, and another 300 veterans of the 7th are abandoned to their deaths by the Imperial Fists while they're engaged in a dangerous compliance. Survivors are 5,000 of the 4th Fellowship who got word and bailed on their Crusade assignment, and the several thousand I mentioned on Zhao-Arkhad (6th Fellowship). I love it! Suck it, witches. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Athrawes Posted February 6, 2017 Share Posted February 6, 2017 Does it explain why both Legions turned on the Thousand sons though? The wolves turned to extermination because Horus changed their orders, but why would the Ultramarines and Fists kill fellow legionaries? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1ncarnadine Posted February 6, 2017 Share Posted February 6, 2017 No explicit reason is given. We have to assume the Warmaster told them so, or Russ & Valdor got word out to Imperial authorities about the horrifying witchery on Prospero and they kept it from the Sons for the most part, or a combination of both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Athrawes Posted February 6, 2017 Share Posted February 6, 2017 Great, thank a million mate. I'm surprised that they gave explicit figures for those two forces that were exterminated, but that's only 2,300 confirmed killed of the potential 30,000. Still leaves the potential for sizable forces roaming the galaxy. Unless they were explicit that most of those off world when Prospero was attacked were in turn hunted down and killed. In that case 15,000 seems about right, but if not it seems reasonable that there were between 20-30 thousand left. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluntblade Posted February 6, 2017 Share Posted February 6, 2017 Even if the Wolves didn't get all the stragglers, Kalliston's fleet were slain except for a single warrior by World Eaters, and Mortarion destroyed everything of the Prosperine Empire that remained. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1ncarnadine Posted February 6, 2017 Share Posted February 6, 2017 Great, thank a million mate. I'm surprised that they gave explicit figures for those two forces that were exterminated, but that's only 2,300 confirmed killed of the potential 30,000. Still leaves the potential for sizable forces roaming the galaxy. Unless they were explicit that most of those off world when Prospero was attacked were in turn hunted down and killed. In that case 15,000 seems about right, but if not it seems reasonable that there were between 20-30 thousand left. I get the harsher number because it explicitly states that those 2300 are just examples of very common cases, and that only two were known to have escaped justice. It's only those two groups of the 4th & 6th I mentioned, and then I assume maybe a few extra very tiny groups here and there that have extreme circumstances. Think the little group that got off Prospero and may have been discovered, or rubble survivors like Khayon, but that those could happen anywhere (maybe 20 survived the Ultramarine massacre, right?). It's a psychic legion with extreme means for obfuscation and survival, so lots of cool little personal stories are possible for our own armies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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