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8th Edition: Zeal Rising


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#1
d3m01iti0n

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Where are we going to play into all this? Though I haven't read the fluff of the first book I get the general idea that we kicked some ass and didn't get squatted like some were afraid of. Now we've got Rowboat coming back...so it stands to reason we will see Dorn return. Where does it leave the Templars?
I for one see a fluff shift towards 30k style legions and possibly cutting down on successor chapters as the chapters rally upon their Primarchs. So if Dorn comes back, to we hook up with him and keep Crusading? Do we roll back into IF as their elite CC faction? Or does GW clean house and do away with successor chapters altogether?
Things are about to get shaken up folks...

Edited by d3m01iti0n, 31 May 2017 - 09:32 PM.


"The third and final group are aberrants; Chapters who, through quirk of gene-seed, mutation or stubbornness, eschew the Codex Astartes in favor of other structural and combat doctrines......Others, such as the Space Wolves and the Black Templars, remain stubbornly independent, looking to their own founder's ways of war and caring little of how they fare in the eyes of others......Such divergent Chapters play little part in this volume, for this is the tale of the Ultramarines, and all who follow their example."
- from the 5th Edition Space Marine Codex[/quote]

#2
Brother Tyler

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Why does it stand to reason that Dorn will return? I can see an equivalency of (daemon) primarchs being pulled back into the setting, but we have far better candidates for return on the loyalist side. Guilliman was definitely among the living, albeit in stasis and mistakenly identified as mortally wounded (apparently the constitution of a primarch was beyond reckoning - or perhaps Guilliman was a previously unidentified perpetual). Lion El'Jonson is also definitely among the living, even though nobody (other than the Emperor and the Watchers in the Dark) knows. Corax, Russ, Khan, and Vulkan are the other likely candidates since their fates are unknown. Dorn, meanwhile, is largely thought to be dead. The lore has shifted and changed over the years, from him being definitively dead (in Space Marine by Ian Watson), to the vague speculation that he might be leading the Custodes (in the Games Day '99 UK Programme about the Crimson Fists, though no mention of Dorn was made in the 2nd edition lore about the Custodes), to the definitive death in the Index Astartes article (frequently misinterpreted as only his hands being recovered), to the definitive death with only his hands being recovered (in the current lore). And then we have the speculation that Ferrus Manus might return.

 

Besides, we don't know for certain that the primarchs will necessarily remain. I have a hard time seeing GW give them so easily and then take them away, mind you, but perhaps these mondo characters are meant to last for this campaign only (rolling Magnus into the mix since that whole campaign appears to have been developed as a feeder). I could just as easily see the primarchs and other super characters remaining, but with some limits on their usage (and I'm not going to bother speculating about what such hypothetical limits should/might be).

 

And since the returning loyalist primach is Roboute Guilliman, the author of the Codex Astartes and individual that forced the division of the legions into the chapters, I don't see a break down of the chapters back into legions. I can see a coalescing of chapters with regard to loyalties (for those whose primarch(s) return), but I definitely see the chapters remaining A Thing.

 

What I see is a shaking up of the lore, but it will remain largely intact with regard to core issues. The Eldar are feeling a big change in terms of what happens to some of the craftworlds. We're seeing some worlds of the Imperium, including Adeptus Astartes worlds, fall, but this will signal some shifts in a few small areas.

 

As with any plot progression, some people are going to be unhappy with the changes [when their favorite faction is drastically changed for the worse - Biel Tan players take notice] and others are going to be very happy [when their favorite faction benefits for the better - Ultramarines (Legion) players take notice]. While some of these changes may feel big, for the most part, they'll be mostly cosmetic. Sure, we'll see some new characters and units, some worlds are going to be changed (for better or worse), etc. On the whole, though, the core principles of the setting will remain largely intact. GW is pushing a few plotlines forward, but I doubt we'll see a really drastic revision to the setting [to the point where it will be largely unrecognizable]. It's going to be WH41K, which is just WH40K+ (and a little -).

 

While bringing a small number of primarchs back into the active setting is going to happen, I don't think that we're going to see a mass return. And if that means that my favorite primarch, Rogal Dorn, remains D-E-D dead, I'm fine with that. Which doesn't mean that I won't be happy to see him return - he's my favorite, after all. But I think there are far better prospects for returning loyalist primarchs and I'd rather see the most interesting (and plausible) for the storyline rather than my personal favorite.

 

[Edit]

As for the Templars, who knows? It's too soon to tell. From a purely speculative point, assuming Dorn doesn't return, I don't see much of a change for them lore-wise. We may see old characters die and new ones brought forth (or we may not), but I don't see much beyond that.

[/Edit]

 

Just my opinion.


Edited by Brother Tyler, 04 February 2017 - 12:58 AM.
Oops! I forgot about the Black Templars in my answer.

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#3
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Didn't Vulkan talk about Dorn being alive in the war of the beast?


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#4
Acebaur

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Dorn is dead, the Imperial Fists Chapter Masters inscribe their names on his bones. So pretty sure he isn't coming back ;)


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#5
Marshal_Roujakis

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Imho, Guilliman shouldn't have come back either... I was expecting Russ to be back 1st since Wulfen and all that... we may see Dorn, but probably not as a physical aspect of Dorn such as Guilliman, but maybe some form of Dorn avatar... similar to Celestine which is a Sister which became a Living Saint... maybe an IF, or Templar that was infused with the very essence of Rogal Dorn himself, a sort of Astartes Living Saint...

 

As for what might happen to the Templars with Girlymans return... I get the feeling that he might force the Codex down their throat, exclaiming that the Fist are doing it, why not them... and it would somehow end up in some sort of rivalry or even an excommunication for any Chapter that doesn't follow the dumb Codex...

 

I don't understand how the Templars and Space Wolves, which abhor all form of heresy, witch craft, betrayal and anything non-human, but don't follow the Codex, always gets the beaten, bad-end of the stick when the supposed puritanical and most adherent Chapters such as Blood Angels, Ultramarines and Salamanders are usually the ones allying with Xenos or banding with Traitors without batting an eyelash...

 

What happened to the good old "The Enemy of my Enemy... will die next!"


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Spoiler

 

The Vengeance Crusade Thread


#6
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40k PG era happend. 

 

Sadly 

 

Crash


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#7
Marshal Laeroth

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As much as I am a Templar...I've thought it'd be cool to have the primarchs and/or the emperor added to the game for thematic purposes. I think its fun that Guilliman is back, even if I dont agree with his "stances" in the lore.

On a side note...sounds like he is going to start a crusade, so maybe he sees what works the past 9k years from the example of the best. ;)

Edited by Marshal Laeroth, 04 February 2017 - 04:37 AM.

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QUOTE (Acebaur @ Jul 1 2012, 12:14 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Laeroth, I think you are the Yoda of the BT forum. I demand you start speaking backwards! :P


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#8
d3m01iti0n

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Don't get me wrong, I love that he's back and this whole campaign concept. I'm pleased with how GW us handling themselves these days and it was the biggest factor in bringing me back to the game. But I recently looked into what happened with AoS and that is just pure insanity.
In the long run I'd like to see SM split into something like 3 army books. UM with Girlyman and strict Codex adherent chapters, IF with BT and CF, and another book for whoever else. Seems a solid move to consolidate what they have already but more space to flesh out rules and fluff for the armies under each banner. Having a core IF book with specific BT and CF options, rather than everyone drawing off the Codex Astartes.

"The third and final group are aberrants; Chapters who, through quirk of gene-seed, mutation or stubbornness, eschew the Codex Astartes in favor of other structural and combat doctrines......Others, such as the Space Wolves and the Black Templars, remain stubbornly independent, looking to their own founder's ways of war and caring little of how they fare in the eyes of others......Such divergent Chapters play little part in this volume, for this is the tale of the Ultramarines, and all who follow their example."
- from the 5th Edition Space Marine Codex[/quote]

#9
Sete

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We already played. I don't want to jump to conclusions without having the book but I don't think the crusade reaches Ultramar.

Even if it reaches it will be sidelined by GK, Chyper and ofc Guilliman.

We may be used as an example of how "bad" the Imperium is in the eyes of Guilliman, and get ready for that word bearers comparison.

All and all our best chance to be on the spot light again is Ghazghull.

#10
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"Saint Celestine, Inquisitor Greyfax, Belisarius Cawl and the Ynnari – continue their quests, travelling through the Eldar webway to arrive in the Ultramar systelm."

Notice any one or group missing from that list....?

#11
Lord Blackwood

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Thats a shame , I was enjoying the Celestine  and sisters hanging out with the Templars , oh well. 



#12
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The forces evacuated from Cadia are reported to have gone through the Webway to Ultramar and will defend the region. Saint Celestine went with the Templars into the Webway. Saint Celestine along with the Eldar has woken RG and gifted him her Iron Halo.

The Templars are on Ultramar and are reinforcing the region, showing the Codex boys how a proper Legion handles war.
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#13
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This is only partially related but is anyone else hoping to see Grimaldus and Helbrecht make an appearance? Maybe the Eternal Crusader can link up with the Phalanx and go save the Ultramarines like a reverse Iron Cage?


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#14
Link2edition

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This is only partially related but is anyone else hoping to see Grimaldus and Helbrecht make an appearance? Maybe the Eternal Crusader can link up with the Phalanx and go save the Ultramarines like a reverse Iron Cage?

I want to see that, only because I think Guilliman being rescued by a non-codex chapter might give him an aneurysm.


Edited by Acebaur, 05 February 2017 - 08:20 PM.

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#15
Lord Marshal

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"Saint Celestine, Inquisitor Greyfax, Belisarius Cawl and the Ynnari – continue their quests, travelling through the Eldar webway to arrive in the Ultramar systelm."

Notice any one or group missing from that list....?

 

The Imperial Guard? Tempestus Scions? Sisters of Battle?


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#16
Marshal Mattias

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Where do I see us with Dorn's *potential yet unlikely* return?

I've said it before and I'll say it again: it better play out like this :P

A Black Templar crusade takes out a huge Chaos ship/world/artefact/deus ex macguffin. A tremendous warp storm builds, and their Battle Barge is at the heart of it. Suddenly, in a flash of light, a battered and bloody giant bursts forth from the warp; half of a broken relic blade in one hand and an enormous bent and sparking storm shield strapped to his other arm. His armour is rent and rusted, bare-burnt ceramite, and completely missing in parts. About his shoulders, a few rags of what was once no doubt a luxurious cloak. A scar across his face, an obviously blinded eye, and a ragged beard. He looks up, and his brethren recognise him... Dorn.
10,000 years he has spent in the immaterium, fighting an endless horde of daemon filth across the barren surface of a dead world. Beneath his shield, a stump where once there was a gauntleted fist, lost in his last battle above Terra.
He is broken and bloodied, but unbowed.
Proud as ever, he straightens up and simply calls immediately for armour and a weapon. His sons scramble to attention. He has vital intel on the enemy - the latest incursions are but a feint. The screeching of daemons over 10,000 years has contained some value among the insanity; the enemy amasses for a direct assault on Terra.
"We must prevent them from reaching our Father. Gather the legion; we have a new Crusade."

Did I mention I love Tropes? That's the bombastic adventure I want to see ;)
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#17
Sete

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This is only partially related but is anyone else hoping to see Grimaldus and Helbrecht make an appearance? Maybe the Eternal Crusader can link up with the Phalanx and go save the Ultramarines like a reverse Iron Cage?

 

Doubt it. The book will be about hyping Guilliman.

Helbrecth will be at the Octarius sector busy with nids and orks along with Yarrick. 

There is fighting on the webway, and half the crusade was sacrificed to delay the Black Legion, maybe its the other half turn.

I doubt Dorn will appear. He is refereed has "long dead" twice on the Gathering Storm I.

Was Cawl transporting the Emperor sword? I reckon thats the relic Abby was after.

 

Also every army in codex space marine will be able to use* Guilliman 

 

*except Black Templars. thats why we had those formation in book 1.


Edited by Sete, 04 February 2017 - 07:15 PM.


#18
Jacques Corbin

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"Saint Celestine, Inquisitor Greyfax, Belisarius Cawl and the Ynnari – continue their quests, travelling through the Eldar webway to arrive in the Ultramar systelm."

Notice any one or group missing from that list....?


Likely the Black Templars were diverted to Commorrah. I bet a Marshall heard that there were a lot of Wyches (but he heard it as witches) there looking for a good melee.

Sounds like Eldar type of trickery. The DE are not on board with the whole Ynnead plan, so why not get the BT to do the wet work?
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#19
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It's funny that so many people dismiss Dorn as dead, (I don't read enough lore to have any real opinion on that) but when they first dropped the word that we might see Primarchs return Dorn was name dropped as part of that. How much that actually means is anyones guess but as long as they handle that properly I'll be happy. Primarch or not we'll still keep crusading anyway.


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#20
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"Saint Celestine, Inquisitor Greyfax, Belisarius Cawl and the Ynnari – continue their quests, travelling through the Eldar webway to arrive in the Ultramar systelm."

Notice any one or group missing from that list....?


The Imperial Guard? Tempestus Scions? Sisters of Battle?

You didn't read the fluff in the book did you -.-

#21
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"Saint Celestine, Inquisitor Greyfax, Belisarius Cawl and the Ynnari – continue their quests, travelling through the Eldar webway to arrive in the Ultramar systelm."

Notice any one or group missing from that list....?

The Imperial Guard? Tempestus Scions? Sisters of Battle?
You didn't read the fluff in the book did you -.-
I think he was responding specifically to the bit he quoted. We all are aware that the Templars IG and Sisters get to serve as a backdrop for the small group that seems to be the center of the story anymore :P
(Sorry. I'm annoyed that the story has come down to just a few character than seem to matter)

Edited by Servant of Dante, 05 February 2017 - 06:02 PM.

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#22
Lord Marshal

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"Saint Celestine, Inquisitor Greyfax, Belisarius Cawl and the Ynnari – continue their quests, travelling through the Eldar webway to arrive in the Ultramar systelm."

Notice any one or group missing from that list....?


The Imperial Guard? Tempestus Scions? Sisters of Battle?

You didn't read the fluff in the book did you -.-

 

 

You didn't read what I quoted did you. ;)



#23
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Where do I see us with Dorn's *potential yet unlikely* return?

I've said it before and I'll say it again: it better play out like this :P

A Black Templar crusade takes out a huge Chaos ship/world/artefact/deus ex macguffin. A tremendous warp storm builds, and their Battle Barge is at the heart of it. Suddenly, in a flash of light, a battered and bloody giant bursts forth from the warp; half of a broken relic blade in one hand and an enormous bent and sparking storm shield strapped to his other arm. His armour is rent and rusted, bare-burnt ceramite, and completely missing in parts. About his shoulders, a few rags of what was once no doubt a luxurious cloak. A scar across his face, an obviously blinded eye, and a ragged beard. He looks up, and his brethren recognise him... Dorn.
10,000 years he has spent in the immaterium, fighting an endless horde of daemon filth across the barren surface of a dead world. Beneath his shield, a stump where once there was a gauntleted fist, lost in his last battle above Terra.
He is broken and bloodied, but unbowed.
Proud as ever, he straightens up and simply calls immediately for armour and a weapon. His sons scramble to attention. He has vital intel on the enemy - the latest incursions are but a feint. The screeching of daemons over 10,000 years has contained some value among the insanity; the enemy amasses for a direct assault on Terra.
"We must prevent them from reaching our Father. Gather the legion; we have a new Crusade."

Did I mention I love Tropes? That's the bombastic adventure I want to see ;)

See, that would actually be an interesting way for a Primarch to return. In general I think primarchs in 40K will cheapen the setting, but since that ship has already sailed, I'd love to see Dorn come back that way :D
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#24
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WE WILL CONTINUE TO DO, WHAT THE EMPEROR TOLD US TO DO, UNTIL HE TELLS US TO STOP.

 

 

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#25
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