The implications of Guillimans return for the Imperium.

[D3L]

I believe that RG is just the tip of the iceberg. His other lost brothers will follow, and when they are all together they will morph into a Voltron like super planet killer titan, in the form of the Emperor. Or they will summon the Emperor like captain planet. Both great options *eats popcorn*.

probably the most likely outcome, seen how it's been heading recently

[IronDrake28]

Guilliman will probably create his second empire all over again. He was secretly a renegade already, under the guise of "contingency plans". Victors get to write history after all.

 

 

He created his own imperium, The Imperium Secundus once and proclaimed the Imperium lost and that the Emperor failed then named Sanguinius Emperor. Supposedly it was because contact was lost. Even Sangy knew it and called out Guilliman that he was actually running the show and Sang was just a figurehead.

 

Sure he wasn't formally labeled a renegade and traitor. But what happens when you make your own empire, rather than help the one you supposedly swore to?

 

Then again it's Black Library, they and GW proper don't always line up.

 

 

 

 

 

Wut. Just no. XD

 

Think that all you want, Guilliman is a loyal son.

 

There's this thing called The Scouring where he held the Imperium together the best he could.

 

Imperium Secundus was made specifically so he could create a power base and take back what was lost.

 

It seems like you're twisting the events to your own liking, which is fine, but it isn't accurate to the actual canon.

[karden00]

 

Guilliman will probably create his second empire all over again. He was secretly a renegade already, under the guise of "contingency plans". Victors get to write history after all.

 

 

He created his own imperium, The Imperium Secundus once and proclaimed the Imperium lost and that the Emperor failed then named Sanguinius Emperor. Supposedly it was because contact was lost. Even Sangy knew it and called out Guilliman that he was actually running the show and Sang was just a figurehead.

 

Sure he wasn't formally labeled a renegade and traitor. But what happens when you make your own empire, rather than help the one you supposedly swore to?

 

Then again it's Black Library, they and GW proper don't always line up.

 

 

 

 

 

Wut. Just no. XD

 

Think that all you want, Guilliman is a loyal son.

 

There's this thing called The Scouring where he held the Imperium together the best he could.

 

Imperium Secundus was made specifically so he could create a power base and take back what was lost.

 

It seems like you're twisting the events to your own liking, which is fine, but it isn't accurate to the actual canon.

 

 

Man, people sure are being selective when it comes to recognizing the canon that supports their argument lately. 

[Nusquam]

Imperium Secundus was, quite literally, a back up Imperium. Not a "power base" for reconquest. He even named Sanguinius Emperor. Big E would not have been happy to know that. Plus had Guilliman not played puppet master with Emperor Sanguinius he could have been there at the Siege, instead of showing up late and brushing his personal empire under the rug of the scouring.

 

But again, its Black Library and they take liberties. Some good, some bad. I doubt GW will use anything from them that they themselves didn't push.

[IronDrake28]

Okay, I totally disagree. Mostly with my points above...But this is off topic so I shall avoid continuing this conversation with you as you obviously view the lore very differently to me.

[RandomMarine]

So my 2 pence. Yes imperium secundus made guilliman a traitor to the imperium at large whoever he did so while convinced that big E was dead and the rest of the galaxy had already fallen to horus so he secures his borders and preserves the ideal of the imperium. When he discovers that the Emperor lives he sets course to Terra

 

Rg is a pragmatist so I imagine he'll deal with the current issues before he take the current imperium to task

[Sete]

I reckon that GW offed Cadia with a reason.

I don't think RG would approve the attrition style of the guard forces.

 

He might use the Cadian veterans to raise a new type of Imperial Guard.

Where every Tuesday is not Stalingrad.

Also new minis ;)

[Angel_of_Blood]

I also think that the Lion is going to make his come back, and I think he is going to go Renegade. In one of the Dark Angels novels the idea that the Lion had fallen to chaos was brought up. The argument being.... why did the Lion arrive at Terra AFTER the Siege was completed? The was no reason for this to occur. He had plenty of notice that Horus and Co was on their way, and he had little resistance. But he went there very slowly. The argument presented was that his slow arrival was intentional, so that he could see who the victor was and join the winning team. And that he needed to purge his own legion of anyone that knew that he was waiting for the dust to settle. To me, this makes a lot of sense. So I would not be surprised that something akin to this train of thought is what allows for the Lion and all of the Dark Angels to go rogue.

The Heresy series has very much made a point of completely debunking any notion that the Lions loyalty to the Emeperor was ever in question, or that he was fence sitting. There's likely a myriad of threads here that will confirm this, or could start a new one to not derail this one too much. But yeah, he was nothing but loyal.

[Apothecary Vaddon]

 

I also think that the Lion is going to make his come back, and I think he is going to go Renegade. In one of the Dark Angels novels the idea that the Lion had fallen to chaos was brought up. The argument being.... why did the Lion arrive at Terra AFTER the Siege was completed? The was no reason for this to occur. He had plenty of notice that Horus and Co was on their way, and he had little resistance. But he went there very slowly. The argument presented was that his slow arrival was intentional, so that he could see who the victor was and join the winning team. And that he needed to purge his own legion of anyone that knew that he was waiting for the dust to settle. To me, this makes a lot of sense. So I would not be surprised that something akin to this train of thought is what allows for the Lion and all of the Dark Angels to go rogue.

The Heresy series has very much made a point of completely debunking any notion that the Lions loyalty to the Emeperor was ever in question, or that he was fence sitting. There's likely a myriad of threads here that will confirm this, or could start a new one to not derail this one too much. But yeah, he was nothing but loyal.

 

Yup. Every single source he's been physically present in makes it clear in no uncertain terms that he was loyal. 'Course, something might have happened in the 10k years since but at the time of the Heresy he was loyal to a fault.

[Black Cohort]

How will a Primarch being back impact the creation of new marines? Didn't they use genetic material/ geneseed directly from the Primarchs in the crusade speeding up the creation process? If the Imperium can start pumping out large scale numbers of new marines it would make a big difference, even if they can't give them all the fancy wargear space marines normally have.

[IronDrake28]

I doubt they have the time to start recruiting new marines, especially if Ultramar gets wrecked.

 

Maybe the fact that Guilliman is on life-support means his geneseed is unusable? Daemon-poison might of done something funky to it.

[Arkangilos]

I don't understand Sanguinius almost sold sacrificed his soul to the chaos gods yet people accuse Lion as being a traitor.

Fixed that for you. He was willing to sacrifice himself to save everyone, he wasn't selling his soul. To him it was, "do this or your entire legion joins us as they are" and, not having faced Chaos like that, did not know the extent of the lies. He was still loyal. His plan was to give his legion back control so that they could fight back. Hence the ass kicking he gave to the daemons when his son ended up taking the hit for him. His loyalty never wavered.

[Demigod]

 

I don't understand Sanguinius almost sold sacrificed his soul to the chaos gods yet people accuse Lion as being a traitor.

Fixed that for you. He was willing to sacrifice himself to save everyone, he wasn't selling his soul. To him it was, "do this or your entire legion joins us as they are" and, not having faced Chaos like that, did not know the extent of the lies. He was still loyal. His plan was to give his legion back control so that they could fight back. Hence the ass kicking he gave to the daemons when his son ended up taking the hit for him. His loyalty never wavered.

 

 

So did Magnus and see how that turned out. If one is ready to make deals with the Chaos gods no matter the intentions he is already a traitor.

[Arkangilos]

Lol, whatever you say. It's clear in the fluff Sanguinius isn't a traitor, but if you want to think that and be delusional that's your business.

 

And the difference is that Sanguinius fought against Chaos whenever the legion was saved. Magnus joined them.

 

The fact is, Sanguinius is not a traitor, and you can pick and choose what you want to say that he is, but it is *official* that he is a loyalist and would *never* betray the emperor. He didn't go, "oh, I have to follow this warp being to survive" he went, "in order for my legion to continue to fight these people, I have to die." He thought he was going to die, not be controlled.

 

I mean it's not like he was he Primarch to give weapons to the already traitor Iron Warriors, like the one you are defending. I mean surely, if simply contemplating being tortured for eternity is enough to qualify to be a traitor, then actually GIVING WEAPONS to Traitors would be, too?

 

(As a note, I think all Loyalist Primarchs were loyal).

[Angel_of_Blood]

I mean it's not like he was he Primarch to give weapons to the already traitor Iron Warriors, like the one you are defending. I mean surely, if simply contemplating being tortured for eternity is enough to qualify to be a traitor, then actually GIVING WEAPONS to Traitors would be, too?

 

(As a note, I think all Loyalist Primarchs were loyal).

Not like he knew Perturabo was a traitor though.

[Arkangilos]

It doesn't matter. Discussing which Primarchs are Traitors (when it's obviously clear that none of the loyalist ones are) is off topic.

[karden00]

 

 

I also think that the Lion is going to make his come back, and I think he is going to go Renegade. In one of the Dark Angels novels the idea that the Lion had fallen to chaos was brought up. The argument being.... why did the Lion arrive at Terra AFTER the Siege was completed? The was no reason for this to occur. He had plenty of notice that Horus and Co was on their way, and he had little resistance. But he went there very slowly. The argument presented was that his slow arrival was intentional, so that he could see who the victor was and join the winning team. And that he needed to purge his own legion of anyone that knew that he was waiting for the dust to settle. To me, this makes a lot of sense. So I would not be surprised that something akin to this train of thought is what allows for the Lion and all of the Dark Angels to go rogue.

The Heresy series has very much made a point of completely debunking any notion that the Lions loyalty to the Emeperor was ever in question, or that he was fence sitting. There's likely a myriad of threads here that will confirm this, or could start a new one to not derail this one too much. But yeah, he was nothing but loyal.

 

Yup. Every single source he's been physically present in makes it clear in no uncertain terms that he was loyal. 'Course, something might have happened in the 10k years since but at the time of the Heresy he was loyal to a fault.

 

 

I mostly agree. 

While he may not have been able to be certain, I still have a hard time letting slide the fact that he had both Typhon and some Iron Hands and basically said "Well, who am I to say I know for sure?" 

[karden00]

Demigod, with respect, there are too many instances of your sourcing that I am not going to bother to quote. 

 

I will say a few things, however. 

 

First, when you read about the SW watch packs going out, they didnt go out because some primarchs/legions were thought to be suspect. They went to every primarch and legion. Period. It was a new plot point that many readers in the community did not like. And the purpose of the packs was to observe (and possibly enforce, though that was hardly ever a forgone conclusion) the proper implementation of the Council of Nikaea. 

 

Second. Guilliman being 'suspected' of empire building is not a charge against him. It is exactly what he was intended to do. No one, at any point, says that what Guilliman had done in Ultramar pre-heresy was wrong. It got a little touchy with Imperium Secundus, but everyone, including Horus before he fell, saw that what Guilliman was doing was the correct way to go about building the Imperium. It was not a crime, he never received censure or rebuke. The only iffy thing that came out of any of it was that in declaring Imperium Secundus, Bobby G could be seen as abandoning Terra, which would have been unconscionable. But he reasons in his context that a) he cannot get to Terra, no matter how much he wanted to, and b) by declaring IS, he makes a strong moral statement for the people of his realm, who are, as far as he knows, the only surviving Imperials left in the galaxy. 

 

If you are going to state the Unremembered Empire is your source, then respectfully, you should try to pay more attention to what is going on. 

[Urriak Urruk]

RG's definitely loyal, though a control freak. Reason he made Imperium Secundus was because he assumed the Emperor was dead and Terra lost. And when it turned out that wasn't the case, he reunited with the normal Imperium.

 

Now, there is no question that he was running the Secundus personally, and after his dad was chair-bound wanted to run the broader Imperium his way. That doesn't make him disloyal but instead a very Roman idea of "managed democracy." Step in and assert control and things are on fire.

 

The Lion though, is different. He certainly doesn't seem very interested in Chaos, but he too enjoys being in control, without any of the idealism of RG. He doesn't seem to want to rule because he can do the best job (RG is the best administrator) he simply wants to rule. After initially learning of Horus' betrayal he was already playing to replace him as Warmaster, possibly because he thinks himself the best general. Letting the High Lords rule, or the Codex Astartes, seems completely anti-thesis to him.

 

The Lion's real motives are so murky I honestly don't know how he'd react to the 41st millennium. I doubt he'll go renegade because he's so ambitious he'll want the whole Imperium, or at least a position of power (like Lord Commander). He more than RG will want the Imperium back to what it was in the Great Crusade, with full legions and direct rulership.

[Demigod]

Demigod, with respect, there are too many instances of your sourcing that I am not going to bother to quote.

I will say a few things, however.

First, when you read about the SW watch packs going out, they didnt go out because some primarchs/legions were thought to be suspect. They went to every primarch and legion. Period. It was a new plot point that many readers in the community did not like. And the purpose of the packs was to observe (and possibly enforce, though that was hardly ever a forgone conclusion) the proper implementation of the Council of Nikaea.

Second. Guilliman being 'suspected' of empire building is not a charge against him. It is exactly what he was intended to do. No one, at any point, says that what Guilliman had done in Ultramar pre-heresy was wrong. It got a little touchy with Imperium Secundus, but everyone, including Horus before he fell, saw that what Guilliman was doing was the correct way to go about building the Imperium. It was not a crime, he never received censure or rebuke. The only iffy thing that came out of any of it was that in declaring Imperium Secundus, Bobby G could be seen as abandoning Terra, which would have been unconscionable. But he reasons in his context that a) he cannot get to Terra, no matter how much he wanted to, and by declaring IS, he makes a strong moral statement for the people of his realm, who are, as far as he knows, the only surviving Imperials left in the galaxy.

If you are going to state the Unremembered Empire is your source, then respectfully, you should try to pay more attention to what is going on.

The first part was already cleared by other people. As for the second that is just you interpretation, the interaction where he is asked why he does not proclaim him self ruler and he answers with "That would not look good" and how he treats Sanguinius and Lion when they join is the basis of my interpretation of RG.

The best thing about the story progressing is that some questions that had been discussed for many times can be answered finally. A brilliant statesmen or an opportunistic power grabber.

[karden00]

Demigod, with respect, there are too many instances of your sourcing that I am not going to bother to quote.

I will say a few things, however.

First, when you read about the SW watch packs going out, they didnt go out because some primarchs/legions were thought to be suspect. They went to every primarch and legion. Period. It was a new plot point that many readers in the community did not like. And the purpose of the packs was to observe (and possibly enforce, though that was hardly ever a forgone conclusion) the proper implementation of the Council of Nikaea.

Second. Guilliman being 'suspected' of empire building is not a charge against him. It is exactly what he was intended to do. No one, at any point, says that what Guilliman had done in Ultramar pre-heresy was wrong. It got a little touchy with Imperium Secundus, but everyone, including Horus before he fell, saw that what Guilliman was doing was the correct way to go about building the Imperium. It was not a crime, he never received censure or rebuke. The only iffy thing that came out of any of it was that in declaring Imperium Secundus, Bobby G could be seen as abandoning Terra, which would have been unconscionable. But he reasons in his context that a) he cannot get to Terra, no matter how much he wanted to, and by declaring IS, he makes a strong moral statement for the people of his realm, who are, as far as he knows, the only surviving Imperials left in the galaxy.

If you are going to state the Unremembered Empire is your source, then respectfully, you should try to pay more attention to what is going on.

The first part was already cleared by other people. As for the second that is just you interpretation, the interaction where he is asked why he does not proclaim him self ruler and he answers with "That would not look good" and how he treats Sanguinius and Lion when they join is the basis of my interpretation of RG.

The best thing about the story progressing is that some questions that had been discussed for many times can be answered finally. A brilliant statesmen or an opportunistic power grabber.

Sigh. Alternative facts rear their head on the B&C.

No. Not interpretation. Reading of clearly established canon.

Maybe Legatus can back me up on this, but I know he is really trying to keep his distance from all things concerned with Guilliman's return.

I don't have time to go through every instance that states "Empire building" is not a charge against Guilliman, but rather an honest appraisal of his activities that was usually made with respect.

Maybe in a while, but in the meantime I would urge you to read up on it more. Whenever Guilliman's activity is mentioned, it is almost never done so in a manner that suggest he is being naughty. Imperium Secundus is a reaction to the theoretical that the entirety of the Imperium is gone. He cannot know. Moreover, he cannot leave Ultramar.

[the jeske]

Imperium Secundus was, quite literally, a back up Imperium. Not a "power base" for reconquest. He even named Sanguinius Emperor. Big E would not have been happy to know that. Plus had Guilliman not played puppet master with Emperor Sanguinius he could have been there at the Siege, instead of showing up late and brushing his personal empire under the rug of the scouring.

 

But again, its Black Library and they take liberties. Some good, some bad. I doubt GW will use anything from them that they themselves didn't push.

You know that this is a classic power play, you control stuff, but name someone else the instigator/leader, just in case if something doesn't work up you have either the option of blaming them for everything and/or them taking most of the blame. There is a ton of examples of people acting like that through history, heck half of my adult life I have this kind of stuff done by different ranked officials, including those at my old work.

[Sothalor]

What Guilliman did with the Imperium Secundus is like what would happen if the Secretary of State and several Joint Chiefs were in a safe zone when global thermonuclear war broke out and they lost all contact with Washington DC right before radiation and EMP turned the entire global communications network into a massive clustercuss.

 

They'd hunker down and immediately start behaving and organizing as if they were now the de facto leaders of (what remained of) the United States, because they have to assume the worst happened until they receive word otherwise. Taking charge in such an event isn't treason, it's continuity of government, as best as you can manage with everything so screwed.

 

 

And Guilliman doesn't just lose contact and access to the wider Imperium, the last word he receives upon discovering that half his brothers turned traitor is Lorgar gloating about how they just destroyed multiple loyal Legions at Isstvan and how Horus is now using Ferrus Manus' skull as a toilet. Then, right after Lorgar is finished gloating about how they have the powers of the Warp on their side, the biggest fething warpstorm they've ever seen blankets seemingly the entire galaxy, cutting Macragge off from nearly everything. It would be the height of irresponsibility for Guilliman not to enact a continuity of government plan.

[Inquisitor Kravin]

Before this thread gets locked for turning into a flame war over the Lion and Guilliman. On topic:

 

GW is a business so the storyline will be driven by sales. If the new book and models flop then Guilliman will get parked out of the way or killed off. However, the buzz in the online community suggests it will be a hit which means GW will crank out every Primarch they can.

 

Because the Heresy story arc is still ongoing we don't know the mentality of the Primarchs post-heresy and pre-disappearance. From what I have read though this is my expectation of how they would/should react:

 

Guilliman: The politician and pragmatist. He's going to be really unhappy about the degeneration of the Imperium but he'll recognise the threats and get on with the job working with what's available to him.

 

The Lion: In the Emperor v Chaos I believe he was loyal to the Emperor but the Emperor is gone, the Imperium a poor shadow or even the antithesis of what it was meant to be. The Lion is a brilliant but arrogant and distrustful warlord. I think he would re-unite his fragmented legion, tell Guilliman where to stick his objections, lead a brilliant campaign of his own against the traitors and xenos but largely disregard the rest of the Imperium.

 

The Khan: Similar to The Lion in that he was never big on the institutions and structure of the Imperium. For him the idea was more important than the mechanics. The caveat is that we don't know how he will be changed by the Siege of Terra and whatever happened to him after he disappeared.

 

Russ: His focus will be on killing the traitors but I don't think he'd hesitate to attack what he sees as traitors within such as the Ecclesiarchy. Remember even pre-Heresy he was willing to make war on fellow legions.

 

Dorn: Unlike Guilliman who is a pragmatist Dorn was always the idealist and true believer in his father's vision. If they bring him back then he's going to handle the High Lords of Terra with all the subtlety of an arco-flagellant in a china shop. He may try to take over not for personal glory but because he can't bear to see someone else do a rubbish job when he believes he knows better.

 

Sanguinius: If death is to have any impact in universe he needs to stay dead but if GW sales people decide a model of him would sell well then after End Times nothing off limits. The Sanguinor will turn into the reincarnation of the Primarch and he'll be the ultimate living saint at the head of the Adeptus Ministorum.

[Inquisitor Kravin]

Ferrus Manus: Being dead is his thing. Please, please don't have the Iron Handd build a robot Primarch so as not to feel left out.

 

Vulkan: I've not read The Beast series but from what I know he's the one Primarch who might actually have lived through the entirety if the last ten millenia in an eternity of violence and death. He's not going to be the idealist he once was. A lot of things will get burned.

 

Corax: The Imperium represents the horrors and injustices of pre-Corax Deliverance writ large. I think he'll refuse to serve in any capacity aligned with the High Lords of Terra and covertly work against the unjust institutions of the Imperium.