Overriding Melta Bomb and Grenade FAQ and Meta Changes

[Jarkaira]

Hi!

 

I am wondering if people would share their stories and opinions on how overriding FAQ on melta bombs has affected their local meta if it has been done and how people think it would affect in a case where FAQ is still used?

 

Since Adepticon has decided to overrule that FAQ I am feeling there is a pressure for other TOs to change their own rules too.

 

I fear it might make some lists like melta spamming Day of Revelation even able to wipe out Knight armies and Vehicle centered lists unless they bubblewrap their Vehicles and thus limiting points that can be used on Vehicles.

 

In my opinion a unit which isn't designed to kill a knight shouldn't be able to take 25pts upgrade and kill a knight after that. It just takes a lot of aspects out of list building as you can take care of every vehicle by taking assault squad with melta bombs.

 

What do you people think about it?

[Withershadow]

I agree, unit-wide melta-bombs A. makes no narrative sense, B. is against the rules as written, and C. allows for frankly ridiculous situations where daemon princes are scared of militia with krak grenades.

 

I hope this doesn't become the standard, but we also have 8th edition to look forward to this summer, so everything may change.

[SkimaskMohawk]

40k is one thing, but 30k is clearly balanced around it.

 

How are people supposed to even have a chance against any mechanicum automata in combat or leviathans? 

 

Also not sure how unit wide access doesn't make narrative sense when 7th is the first edition since at least 4th where you don't get to use multiple grenades  

[Jarkaira]

In our gaming group most of our players are just starting to play HH and we have just single 30K tournament with 40K Xenos under our belt and are starting a HH only campaign within two weeks. Some of us has been playing HH in another cities before things started rolling.

 

We had a HH launch for our members in which everyone willing to participate got without no cost 10 marines and after painting them another 10 marines and after painting them 5 terminators and then character and Contemptor Dreadnought or another 5 termies. We got quite a bunch of people interested in HH and starting their legions.

 

Most of our 40K campaigns and tournaments have been semi narrative but as most of us are experienced players with gaming experience starting in the nineties we tend to build competitive lists.

 

I am just worried about spamming options those melta bomb rules would give and haven't decided yet what I'll vote (and lobby) for when we have another rules convention.

[Slips]

You probably won't hold the same opinion once you face a Questoris Knight army and have to sit there getting: 1) Mulched at initiative 2) Again at I1 with Stomps while your marines pathetically try to strap 1 meltabomb to its knees and hope to deal more than 1 Hullpoint worth of damage with an explodes result before dying to said stomp and then getting swept.

 

All the while the knights are shooting you before this combat even occurs.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Just going to throw it out there that they designed 30k for a 5th and 6th rules set in mind, where multi bomb and grenade was very much a thing. 

 

Again, would like to ask, how are people supposed to deal with Leviathans in combat? A seargent with a powerfist or melta bomb does nothing to on average.

 

How about a unit of castellax? You can't even 1 shot them compared to vehicles.

 

Any lord of war vehicles for that matter? Are you only supposed to be able to kill a typhon with chainfist terminators or a primarch in melee now? Why are you not rewarded for closing in on it with a squad?

 

Melta bombs seem powerful when its only marine vs marine and contemptors are the biggest threat, this changes very quickly against SA, mechanicum, and the higher end vehicles 

[Jarkaira]

^^Well sometimes this happens... :)

 

https://flic.kr/p/RHkSN8

[Jarkaira]

^^ Pretty much everything can be countered with something else than multiple melta bombs. 25pts for whatever vehicle killing ability is a cheap excuse for not building a list that can counter various threats in my opinion.

[Lord Blackwood]

I mean we all know Im biased becauseI play Knights and Armored Breakthrough , but chainfists ?   I have seen far more chainfist terminators , and Knights dont get access to armored ceramite.  Not to mention in  AB your line tanks likely wont have it either. 

 

[Vantraxx]

I only play with mates. We always played with multiple grenades in combat so we just kept it that way. We feel it balances out the big units and keeps a lot of stuff honest...

[Brofist]

Our league has always done multiple bombs as it's always been part of the core 30k system. We didn't change anything after the 40k FAQ.

[SkimaskMohawk]

^^Well sometimes this happens...

https://flic.kr/p/RHkSN8

^^ Pretty much everything can be countered with something else than multiple melta bombs. 25pts for whatever vehicle killing ability is a cheap excuse for not building a list that can counter various threats in my opinion.

We're talking about combat here since that's the whole context of the FAQ. Chainfists are the only thing that spring to mind that are similar...and those drop in effectiveness drastically against automata.

As for the picture of the knight against Vets, all I have to say is this; when you fire out 2-3 ap 3 templates a turn and move 12" a turn, how are you in a situation where you can get 1 shot by melta bombs?

• Why is that unit full strength?
• If there's a tanking 2+ dude, how was he not maneuvered around with the 12"?
• If they all have 2+ and melta bombs, why are you sending that knight after it?

But seriously, other than chainfists, how do you get rid of the bigger vehicles in melee when you're limited to 1 melta bomb or krak grenade

[Jarkaira]

I've never said you should be able to get rid of tougher vehicles with multiple ways of melee and it seems to me that it is never intended to be so. There are multiple ways of dealing with Knights and similar in shooting phase and the most effective ones arent puny Infantry squads.

 

All I am saying that being able to use multiple melta bombs and grenades outright seriously alters the way how squads suddenly become able to outright kill things they in my opinion shouldn't be able to kill but instead in a direst case just scratch a bit.

 

In my opinion in a long term multiple melta bombs would lead into a situation in which you don't want to take any cool vehicles as those are being swept off the table by units taking 25pts upgrade and suddenly turning into Knight killers. At first it removes vehicle centric lists because you need to bubblewrap your vehicles in case of melta bombs in a jetbikes or jump packs. All infantry or jetbike lists just become too powerful against them. In a next phase you just drop out the vehicles and instead turn into lists that kill those other infantry lists.

 

I outright could bet that next Adepticon is won either by a melta bomb relying infantry blobs or jetbike list or a list which is infantry and excels in killing other infantry ie. lots of Volkites and artillery.

[Lord Blackwood]

In our HH Group  we went with the ruling in the FAQ  , originally there was some pushback , but it seems like folks have accepted it as the way the creators of the game intend it to be played and have left the onus on FW  to either counter it with a ruling of their own , or adjust the manner in  which meltabombs are purchased.  

Houseruling things is fine , but  thats what it is  , a house rule 

The Rule Says One Grenade in Melee , the FAQ clarifies it , thats what the ruling is , if your group doesn't wanna play it, its fine , but thats not the official way its played. 

[shandwen]

My biggest issue with refusing the faq is regular dreads. A generic dread dies like a punk to a tac squad in melee because that many krak hits will nullify any usefulness of av 12. I can see the issues faced by an all knight list, but that is a list that is gimmicky to begin with.

[Withershadow]

Oh come on people, there are so many shooty and melee options in the Legion list that can deal with high armor vehicles, whether it's kraken or haywire or melta (not everything can or will take ceramite), chainfists from terminators and dreadnoughts, etc.

 

I like the FAQ because it make my Vorax playable, please don't take it away. :(

 

At the Weekender they stated AoD will always follow the core ruleset, so all this "designed with this and that in mind" is kind of besides the point.

[Jimm]

Our group still plays multiple melta bombs per combat and everyone enjoys it. The main reason we went down this road was we all have 10k+ of multiple armies and superheavies and multiple Spartans/knights are often fielded in pretty power mad lists at times.

The multiple melta bomb thing just means people take more marines which balances out our games and we have less lightning spam. Our lists have become more varied and more balance as a results and we've had more fun.

Tbh I don't find it to hard to stop the majority of melta bomb squads from getting to goodies anyway.

 

Each to there own I suppose as i don't use knights and I guess that's the people who hate mass metabombs.

 

On a side note we do apply 1 "normal" grenade per combat to stop dreads being useless!

[SkimaskMohawk]

I've never said you should be able to get rid of tougher vehicles with multiple ways of melee and it seems to me that it is never intended to be so. There are multiple ways of dealing with Knights and similar in shooting phase and the most effective ones arent puny Infantry squads.

All I am saying that being able to use multiple melta bombs and grenades outright seriously alters the way how squads suddenly become able to outright kill things they in my opinion shouldn't be able to kill but instead in a direst case just scratch a bit.

In my opinion in a long term multiple melta bombs would lead into a situation in which you don't want to take any cool vehicles as those are being swept off the table by units taking 25pts upgrade and suddenly turning into Knight killers. At first it removes vehicle centric lists because you need to bubblewrap your vehicles in case of melta bombs in a jetbikes or jump packs. All infantry or jetbike lists just become too powerful against them. In a next phase you just drop out the vehicles and instead turn into lists that kill those other infantry lists.

I outright could bet that next Adepticon is won either by a melta bomb relying infantry blobs or jetbike list or a list which is infantry and excels in killing other infantry ie. lots of Volkites and artillery.

I know you haven't said you should be able to have melee options against vehicles. I'm saying you should, because there really isn't many options in melee. Shooting shouldn't be the only viable phase or we turn into 40k. Why should battle automata have no fear at all of non-powerfists?

Oh come on people, there are so many....melee options in the Legion list that can deal with high armor vehicles.

Name them. For infantry there's chainfists on terminators...thats about it. 1 bomb doesn't cut it against a typhon or leviathan or automata or knight.

Withershadow, on 07 Feb 2017 - 02:28 AM, said:

I like the FAQ because it make my Vorax playable, please don't take it away.

At the Weekender they stated AoD will always follow the core ruleset, so all this "designed with this and that in mind" is kind of besides the point.

Dude, I have a bunch of autmata too, 6 vorax, 4 castellax, 2 thanatars. They absolutely don't need that kind of buff; Cybernetica is all you need for vorax to make people have no fun

[Brofist]

I make sure to enforce the 1 melta bomb FAQ whenever I bring my knight household

[Lord Blackwood]

I make sure to enforce the 1 melta bomb FAQ whenever I bring my knight household

SOUNDS LIKE WE NEED TO  HAVE A KNIGHT HOUSE VS KNIGHT HOUSE BATTLE as soon as I  get the rest of my plastic ones repainted to fit my 30k scheme. 

[K3nn3rs]

I think a compromise between the two (1 grenade in close combat v multi bombing) would provide a happy balance.

 

Allow certain units (breachers, assault squads, destroyers) a rule that allows them to use 1 grenade per 5 (rounding up).

 

IMO this would be more realistic ('in real life' you don't send all of your grenadiers forward in one go).

It gives a nice bonus to certain infantry squads without making infantry overpowered v vehicles/ monsterous creatures.

It means vehicles/ monstrous creatures retain their survivability against most infantry units - which should be the case.

[CyderPirate]

Why is everyone so worried about killing vehicles in close combat? Most vehicles have crappy rear armour, so they can just be kicked apart by marines. Walkers are obviously going to be a problem, but you shouldn't be trying to kill them in close combat in the first place!

 

The best way to take out them and the bigger/scarier tanks is with other vehicles, or heavy weapon-toting infantry. That's what those high strength/low AP weapons are for, after all. 

[Jarkaira]

K3nn3rs, at maximum I would add some twists to that to allow each unit entry which has bought a melta bombs an oppurtunity use them.

 

Maybe something like this:

In each combat phase units numbering five or less models may use a single melta bomb. Units numbering more than five models may use a single additional melta bomb per every five additional melta bomb carrying models. Discount Independent Characters when calculating models. In addition every Independent Character with melta bombs may use one.

 

In this case an unit with 11 models without IC rule and two ICs with melta bombs joined could use four melta bombs.

 

This would be fluffy as four models are supporting the ones throwing melta bombs and ICs are often more courageous than an average guy and those ICs not having melta bombs often have something other to do than supporting melta bomb throwing guys.

[Jarkaira]

CyderPirate, I totally agree and this is my main reasoning with this.

 

Someone said once that vehicles cost too much money for some and therefore are pay to win against those using cheap infantry. I can't agree on this either.

[m0nolith]

Loken on another forum asked Alan Bligh to clarify this. Heres what he wrote;

 

"That is the new rule, and they (Forge World) have no control over it. Alan said they may address this with special rules for certain units, but in the mean time, house rule it."