Is Magnus the Red horribly broken?

[BrainCandy]

I just got a look at his rules and Mind Wrath was the first thing that really hit me. If I am reading this right he could just use simple Pyromancy and toss out Sunbursts. With an average roll he'd lay a D strength hit on everything within 18 inches of him.  With Molten Beam, he'd be laying a D hit on everything he can clip with a 24 inch beam so long as he can get a 3 on his 2d6 roll.

 

Someone, tell me I am reading this wrong.

[1ncarnadine]

Nope, he's utterly ridiculous, and people have been finding some disgusting combos with him in the Thousand Sons Tactica thread. 

 

Standard policy seems to be that if you're going to play Magnus, gentleman's agreement to avoid novas and invisibility unless you actively despise your opponents.

[Jarkaira]

The same book which contains Magnus contains also the stuff to take him down. Check Sisters of Silence.

 

Even without Magnus I would guess that introduction of Thousand Sons will add psykers so adding some SoS will become a practice.

[Supe robot gangster #1]

As a 1k sons player it pains me to say so, but yes, he is incredibly broken. Keep reading his rules and tell me what you think about running him with invisibility... But yeah general consensus between us 1k sons players is to simply ask your opponent if you can re-roll the broken powers if you roll them (I can't imagine anyone having a problem with that)

[Jimm]

So much so I've changed my mind on making them a second force as I love fielding primarchs but don't see anyone enjoying playing vs him. The contrast in rules between him and transgender Lorgar (who is pretty good but not amazing) for 45 is crazy.

If they wanted to keep him under 500 pts they would have been better off writing 6 custom powers for him to add some balance

[Black Cohort]

I think he would have been fine without his special psychic spell buffing and hit penalties. Those are the two most concerning things. Without them he is a Primarch that is also a powerful psyker.

 

Sure sisters of silence can shut him down temporarily, but they won't stand up to a Primarch in close combat and basically need to be in charge range to shut him down. And being countered by one specific group doesn't make something balanced. How annoying would it be to have every army include sisters allies at 2k or more? How many lists no longer work because that rite of war doesn't allow allies?

[IronDrake28]

So much so I've changed my mind on making them a second force as I love fielding primarchs but don't see anyone enjoying playing vs him. The contrast in rules between him and transgender Lorgar (who is pretty good but not amazing) for 45 is crazy.

If they wanted to keep him under 500 pts they would have been better off writing 6 custom powers for him to add some balance

*Ahem* I think that process costs more than 45pts for Lorgar. :P

 

It does seem like GW and FW largely ignore what powers psykers can actually take. For some reason they assume mastery levels should cost the same for everyone, and they don't look at the consequences of availabile powers sometimes, Magnus being a good example. :(

[Mango Polo]

Mind Wrath should have been executed differently. When the powers you want to buff are mostly WC1 becoming WC3 is not much of a penalty on someone who harnesses on a 3+ and has intense protection against Perils. On top of providing 5 charges by himself. Make it: "pick either the augmented strength or the augmented range" and it's already considerably more fair.

 

On the flip side, I had someone yell at me - and stalk - incessantly that there was no way Magnus would ever be a better psyker than Lorgar++. I'm laughing like a hyena on drugs right now.

[Jimm]

 

So much so I've changed my mind on making them a second force as I love fielding primarchs but don't see anyone enjoying playing vs him. The contrast in rules between him and transgender Lorgar (who is pretty good but not amazing) for 45 is crazy.

If they wanted to keep him under 500 pts they would have been better off writing 6 custom powers for him to add some balance

*Ahem* I think that process costs more than 45pts for Lorgar. :P

Between trans Lorgar and Magy is 45pts

[IronDrake28]

Nah dude, I was making a joke about your typo there haha.

[Jimm]

It's no typo, my Lorgar is very confused since Magy showed up and hes questioning all his life choices.

[rendingon1+]

His D spmming is one thing, what I find completely ridiculous are his special rules that:

a) makes him ignore LOS and cover

b ) gives him D protection (-1 on the table)

 

Don't forget biomancy primaris which on 7+ roll is S:D AP:2 assault 4, range 36" with no cover, ignoring LOS. Or Life leach that only needs 5+ and restores wound.

 

And stupid argument that he cannot be more xpensieve pointwise than Horus because Horus is Horus.

 

Besides even just TS rules are waaay too strong/broken (my opinion).

 

So much of a FW balanced rules.

[Caillum]

His D spmming is one thing, what I find completely ridiculous are his special rules that:

b ) gives him D protection (-1 on the table)

It's not -1 on the D table - he suffers 1 less Wound than he would normally.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

All the Primarchs are broken and should probably not be used outside of specific scenarios or gentleman's agreement. 

 

Magnus is meant to be second only to the Emperor in psychic might, so I feel if anything he's as expected. A demi-god that breaks all realspace rules. His 40k version is more broken arguably. 

 

I think the base 1k Sons rules are fine. I like how they handled the Cults, one of the most powerful buffs is for arguably the worst Discipline (Telekinesis is paired with +1 to invuls). They also interestingly limited the amount of psyker purchasing you can do. It's really just the Legion officers and elite units that are psykers, most of the base Legion list is still 'mundane'. The Castellax-Achea are pretty balanced, their most powerful ability is arcing Witchfires/Maledictions but if you snipe the psyker they take auto-wounds and potentially die as well. 

[rendingon1+]

His D spmming is one thing, what I find completely ridiculous are his special rules that:

b ) gives him D protection (-1 on the table)

It's not -1 on the D table - he suffers 1 less Wound than he would normally.

True, my bad. Still

All the Primarchs are broken and should probably not be used outside of specific scenarios or gentleman's agreement.

Magnus is meant to be second only to the Emperor in psychic might, so I feel if anything he's as expected. A demi-god that breaks all realspace rules. His 40k version is more broken arguably.

I think the base 1k Sons rules are fine. I like how they handled the Cults, one of the most powerful buffs is for arguably the worst Discipline (Telekinesis is paired with +1 to invuls). They also interestingly limited the amount of psyker purchasing you can do. It's really just the Legion officers and elite units that are psykers, most of the base Legion list is still 'mundane'. The Castellax-Achea are pretty balanced, their most powerful ability is arcing Witchfires/Maledictions but if you snipe the psyker they take auto-wounds and potentially die as well.

1. Not all primarchs are broken.

2. Fluff is fluff, rules are rules.

3.

a) You don't have to take discipline mtching arcana. You can have raptora biomancer or divinator. Then you just harness on 4+ not 3+.

b ) Limiting mount of psykers? How? 3 psykers - HQ + termintors and veterans who can purchase psychic brotherhood not counting legion specific units (one of which is underpriced ML2/2W terminators). Take pride of the Legion for army of psykers only.

And no, I don't believe cult arcana is fine. Aside for raptora shield that makes storm shield legions look just stupid, And I don't believe that choosing arcana for each unit is balanced. Alpha legion just has to take one mutable tactic for every unit, which on some units is fine on others useless while TS can pick and choose.

[Prodigal Son of Magnus]

I think we have to put Magnus into perspective before declaring him broken. First, the invisibility shenanigan is clearly an oversight and will be house ruled to a 6+ hard cap by any reasonable player. Second, He has 2 inherent bonuses; his men use his LD, which every Primarch has or has a better rule, and reroll reserves, which is easily accessible with a Damocles rhino, this means he can't play the roll of support Primarch. Third, Magnus is inflexible with powers; if he wants to be a combat God, he has to roll biomancy to the exclusion of all else. If he wants to be super shooty he has to run pyromancy and telekinesis and nothing else, and without upgrades he's the second weakest Primarch in combat. Fourth, to spam Minds Wrath Magnus has to take additional warp carve batteries, which is extra points, He isn't casting 4+ Mind Wrath powers on 5+D6 dice, he's getting off maybe 2 on a good roll. The D-Novas are the only thing, Imo, that needs to be toned down.

I know that it's easy to initially assume brokenness, but I hope people dig a little deeper so we can avoid doing to Magnus what was done to the moritat: nerfed into unplayability by multiple FAQs.

[BrainCandy]

His D spmming is one thing, what I find completely ridiculous are his special rules that:

b ) gives him D protection (-1 on the table)

It's not -1 on the D table - he suffers 1 less Wound than he would normally.

True, my bad. Still

All the Primarchs are broken and should probably not be used outside of specific scenarios or gentleman's agreement.

Magnus is meant to be second only to the Emperor in psychic might, so I feel if anything he's as expected. A demi-god that breaks all realspace rules. His 40k version is more broken arguably.

I think the base 1k Sons rules are fine. I like how they handled the Cults, one of the most powerful buffs is for arguably the worst Discipline (Telekinesis is paired with +1 to invuls). They also interestingly limited the amount of psyker purchasing you can do. It's really just the Legion officers and elite units that are psykers, most of the base Legion list is still 'mundane'. The Castellax-Achea are pretty balanced, their most powerful ability is arcing Witchfires/Maledictions but if you snipe the psyker they take auto-wounds and potentially die as well.

1. Not all primarchs are broken.

2. Fluff is fluff, rules are rules.

3.

a) You don't have to take discipline mtching arcana. You can have raptora biomancer or divinator. Then you just harness on 4+ not 3+.

b ) Limiting mount of psykers? How? 3 psykers - HQ + termintors and veterans who can purchase psychic brotherhood not counting legion specific units (one of which is underpriced ML2/2W terminators). Take pride of the Legion for army of psykers only.

And no, I don't believe cult arcana is fine. Aside for raptora shield that makes storm shield legions look just stupid, And I don't believe that choosing arcana for each unit is balanced. Alpha legion just has to take one mutable tactic for every unit, which on some units is fine on others useless while TS can pick and choose.

No primarch is broken, aside from Magnus. Otherwise I agree.

Glad it wasn't just me whose eyes bugged out when they read him. I am going to be buiding a HH army over the next month or so. I am likely doing Sallies but I wanted to get a look at the 1k sons first. No one will want to deal with the 1k Sons and I don't blame them, sticking to Sallies.

[rendingon1+]

I think we have to put Magnus into perspective before declaring him broken. First, the invisibility shenanigan is clearly an oversight and will be house ruled to a 6+ hard cap by any reasonable player.

LEt's hope they fix it.

Second, He has 2 inherent bonuses; his men use his LD, which every Primarch has or has a better rule, and reroll reserves, which is easily accessible with a Damocles rhino, this means he can't play the roll of support Primarch.

1. This leadership rule almost negates all LA: TS drawbacks. And you have 10LD army wide.

2. So you don't need damocles

Third, Magnus is inflexible with powers; if he wants to be a combat God, he has to roll biomancy to the exclusion of all else. If he wants to be super shooty he has to run pyromancy and telekinesis and nothing else, and without upgrades he's the second weakest Primarch in combat. Fourth, to spam Minds Wrath Magnus has to take additional warp carve batteries, which is extra points, He isn't casting 4+ Mind Wrath powers on 5+D6 dice, he's getting off maybe 2 on a good roll. The D-Novas are the only thing, Imo, that needs to be toned down.

I know that it's easy to initially assume brokenness, but I hope people dig a little deeper so we can avoid doing to Magnus what was done to the moritat: nerfed into unplayability by multiple FAQs.

1. So... he's not that good because he can't have everything? When rolling (with ML5 it's like choosing) on biomancy iron arm makes him S10 and T9 while warp speed gives him I9 and 9 attacks. And you can also get 4+ fnp if you need from endurance. Cast prescience on him and he rerolls all atacks. Plus biomancy has two AP2 witchfires. On top of that Magnus is -1 to hit. You don't really need other disciplines IMHO.

2. Seriously TS don't have to worry about warp charges.

[jgascoine011]

I think Magnus can be over powered but only because TS can put out a :cuss tonne of warp chargers and psychic powers.

Also remeber that most of the witch fire powers dont have a AP value so, they are only really good against tanks. which is something TS are really lacking

 

Put Magnus with a unit of TS terminators and have them teleport him about the field and yea he can do great....but only if he rolls the right powers.

Having Magnus with warp speed and endurance on 2W Terminators giving them eternal warrior and a 2+/3++/4+++ is great but then what will it actually do all game?

Even if magnus rolls those powers, he still cant charge after teleporting, and if he spams smite every turn he kills, what 10 terminators after 5 turns.

 

 

The problem i see is that there is not much your opponent can do to counter him.

If magnus gets the powers he needs and teleports round the field spamming D weapons at an imperial guard tank garage, then yea he will be bloody OP.

If however he fails to roll the powers, of fails to cast a power he needs then he can die pretty quickly.

 

 

Most opponents will just have to try stay away from him and try kill other units that generate warp charges.

White scars, Raven guard, Night lords etc will not have too much problem with this,

Other legions, like world eaters or even sons of horus are going to struggle against him, and just have to hope RNG screws him over.

 

 

So yes while he can be one of the strongest, he is also the most reliant on RNG not screwing him over....the warp is fickle i guess 

[Lord Blackwood]

All the Primarchs are broken and should probably not be used outside of specific scenarios or gentleman's agreement. 

 

 

Do You feel the same way about scoria ?

[Charlo]

 

All the Primarchs are broken and should probably not be used outside of specific scenarios or gentleman's agreement. 

 

Do You feel the same way about scoria ?

 

*Applause*

[rendingon1+]

+++NOT PRIMARCH+++

[Withershadow]

On his own he is not, but certain interactions with Invisibility and Novas is literally mechanically broken lol.

 

Don't be a dick and don't use those powers and he's fine.

[Lord Asvaldir]

I think he would have been fine without his special psychic spell buffing and hit penalties. Those are the two most concerning things. Without them he is a Primarch that is also a powerful psyker.

 

Sure sisters of silence can shut him down temporarily, but they won't stand up to a Primarch in close combat and basically need to be in charge range to shut him down. And being countered by one specific group doesn't make something balanced. How annoying would it be to have every army include sisters allies at 2k or more? How many lists no longer work because that rite of war doesn't allow allies?

 

This pretty much sums it up. Sure, you could technically take an allied sister of battle detachment in every game, but who really wants to do that just to counter one out of eighteen legions? Without pyskers to deal with the sisters become kinda redundant, nor do they often fit into a legion astartes army list all that well. They don't seem to add a whole lot to me other than anti pysker potential. So that means you can't really say Magnus is balanced just because there's one allied detachment you could take that would mitigate his psychic powers somewhat. 

 

Really I think Magnus's witchfire boosting ability should be capped at strength ten, not D, and just drop the to -1 to hit penalty so he can still be hit even with invisibility being off. Also wouldn't hurt to reduce the range of his witchfire ability to say plus 6", not double. 

[Frater Cornelius]

I feel that the Mind Wrath needs fixing. I am less concerned with the Molten Beam and more with Sunburst, equating so S4 + 2D6, potentially D on an average or above roll, with 18" radius. AP5 be damned, he can clear any mech army or AdMech monster army. No tank or big monster will survive 2D6 StrD hits.

 

Beyond that, there is the issue of invisibility and the -1 hit modified making it impossible to hit him. There should be a cap at a minimum of 6 to hit.

 

Other than that, he is fine. It is literally just Mind Wrath.