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The Wolfkin of Russ and Space Wolves Army Composition


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#1
Lord Blackwood

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So I  have been messing around trying to build lists for the wolves , and the whole  1HQ PER 1000 points thing is a real hurdle. 

Something I  looked at as interesting was under the Wolfkin of Russ  it says they are treated as an HQ choice for the sake of  special rules purposes while not taking up a force org slot. 

Does this mean  that Say yer playing at 3000 points 

You can go 

Priest of Fenris  - for the first Thousand 

Wolf Lord/Praetor - for the second thousand

Wolfkin of Russ - for the third Thousand  




 



#2
Jarkaira

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I guess that is the intention because otherwise Space Wolves couldn't play over 3k games.
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#3
Unknown Legionnaire

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Wolf-Kin don't use up a FOC slot, so they enable you to up to 4 HQ selections total. Three selection on the FOC plus the Kin for 4 total.

Of course you still need to bring Russ to field them. (Or do you ? Looking at you CotH ...)


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#4
Lord Blackwood

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So heres another one adding onto this line of questioning 

Does this HARD cap  the wolves at 3k  without  russ  and 4k with him

Wouldnt this mean allying in over 4k is impossible ? 

 



#5
Harrowmaster

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Don't command squads count as a HQ but without taking up a force org slot? If that were to be applied to could potentially boost them to 6 or 7 k


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#6
Baluc

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So its spelled out this way.

 

- Your complusory hq choice must be a Praetor or a base Centurion, after that you must take 1 additional hq choice per 1000 or partial 1000 points you play. ex. 1500 you need a Praetor/Centurion and 1 additional hq choice.

 

- Which the Wolf-kin can fill (if you take Russ).

 

- The Hq per 1000 point block goes beyond the force org you use. So if you are using the Age of Darkness Detachment at 3001 points you will still have 4 hqs even though the force or only allows 3. 

 

- If for example you wanted to use a Delegatus which is a Consul type you can use. You would first need a Centurion to fill your compulsory HQ slot.

 

- You can still take the normal number of HQ slots however. So in a 2k game you could still choose to field 3 hq choices. 

 

So using the OPs example this is how it would work.

 

Praetor as first HQ

 

Priest of Fenris as 2nd

 

Wolf-Kin of Russ - satisfy the needed 3rd hq choice at 2001 points level, but don't fill the slot. Allowing a 4th HQ choice is desired.



#7
Purge the Daemon

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So its spelled out this way.

- Your complusory hq choice must be a Praetor or a base Centurion, after that you must take 1 additional hq choice per 1000 or partial 1000 points you play. ex. 1500 you need a Praetor/Centurion and 1 additional hq choice.

- Which the Wolf-kin can fill (if you take Russ).

- The Hq per 1000 point block goes beyond the force org you use. So if you are using the Age of Darkness Detachment at 3001 points you will still have 4 hqs even though the force or only allows 3.

- If for example you wanted to use a Delegatus which is a Consul type you can use. You would first need a Centurion to fill your compulsory HQ slot.

- You can still take the normal number of HQ slots however. So in a 2k game you could still choose to field 3 hq choices.

So using the OPs example this is how it would work.

Praetor as first HQ

Priest of Fenris as 2nd

Wolf-Kin of Russ - satisfy the needed 3rd hq choice at 2001 points level, but don't fill the slot. Allowing a 4th HQ choice is desired.


The rules page second set of points quite clearly says must take an HQ per 1000 points regardless of force organization. Thus wolves are capped on HQ at 3k (Russ puppies aside) but at more than 3k they simply must take another hq but are not restricted by the foc in doing so.

#8
Baluc

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So its spelled out this way.

- Your complusory hq choice must be a Praetor or a base Centurion, after that you must take 1 additional hq choice per 1000 or partial 1000 points you play. ex. 1500 you need a Praetor/Centurion and 1 additional hq choice.

- Which the Wolf-kin can fill (if you take Russ).

- The Hq per 1000 point block goes beyond the force org you use. So if you are using the Age of Darkness Detachment at 3001 points you will still have 4 hqs even though the force or only allows 3.

- If for example you wanted to use a Delegatus which is a Consul type you can use. You would first need a Centurion to fill your compulsory HQ slot.

- You can still take the normal number of HQ slots however. So in a 2k game you could still choose to field 3 hq choices.

So using the OPs example this is how it would work.

Praetor as first HQ

Priest of Fenris as 2nd

Wolf-Kin of Russ - satisfy the needed 3rd hq choice at 2001 points level, but don't fill the slot. Allowing a 4th HQ choice is desired.


The rules page second set of points quite clearly says must take an HQ per 1000 points regardless of force organization. Thus wolves are capped on HQ at 3k (Russ puppies aside) but at more than 3k they simply must take another hq but are not restricted by the foc in doing so.

 

 

I have no idea what you are trying to say that I didn't spell out?



#9
Karack Blackstone

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I was about to make a thread asking about this right now.

I get the 1 for every 1,000 thought process, I played in fifth with 1 for every 750.

How many HQ Command squads can we take and under what limits? What with the normal FOC only having three HQ slots, it would seem the go-to fix possibility for me.

Put another way, the three hard HQ slots are centurion/praetor, a couple priests, then counts-as HQ units that are free HQ units, outside the FOC, but still costing points to pay and play.

Unless there is a 0-1 cap on Command squads, that is; I hope not, at this point. I do not recall there being an optional second FOC in 7th edition like there was in 6th edition...

#10
Unknown Legionnaire

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It's 1 per Praetor / Master of the Legion, and they share the same FOC slot.

 

Honestly, how many MotL will you include before it gets wonky and expensive ? 

I could see 2 in higher points games, Praetor plus Russ for example.

 

But also with just 1 MotL in there, you'll have up to 5 HQ units, enough for 5.000 pts:

 

1.  Praetor or Centurion  -  Praetor unlocks Command Squad as a no-slot choice

2.  Consul / Wolf Priest / whatever  - If you took a Centurion for your 1st slot you could bring a Delegatus or Herald here to unlock the Command Squad in stead of a Praetor.

3.  Consul / Wolf Priest / whatever

0.  Wolf-Kin of Russ

 

Makes for 5 units 

 

Or run 3 non-MotL HQ choices, plus the Wolf-Kin, plus Russ (whom you need anyways for the Kin) who's a MotL anyways.


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#11
Karack Blackstone

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It's 1 per Praetor / Master of the Legion, and they share the same FOC slot.
 
Honestly, how many MotL will you include before it gets wonky and expensive ? 
I could see 2 in higher points games, Praetor plus Russ for example.
 
But also with just 1 MotL in there, you'll have up to 5 HQ units, enough for 5.000 pts:
 
1.  Praetor or Centurion  -  Praetor unlocks Command Squad as a no-slot choice
2.  Consul / Wolf Priest / whatever  - If you took a Centurion for your 1st slot you could bring a Delegatus or Herald here to unlock the Command Squad in stead of a Praetor.
3.  Consul / Wolf Priest / whatever
0.  Wolf-Kin of Russ
 
Makes for 5 units 
 
Or run 3 non-MotL HQ choices, plus the Wolf-Kin, plus Russ (whom you need anyways for the Kin) who's a MotL anyways.


So, one per Praetor, or Master of the Legion?

K, so as above, maybe up to six or seven, depending upon choices in the HQ and LoW sections...

How would this look?

Praetor
Priest of Fenris: speaker of the dead
Priest of Fenris: caster of runes
Command squad
Command squad
Command squad

Not that original, but it gets SW lists above 3,000 points, which would otherwise be a hard cap.

#12
Unknown Legionnaire

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Praetor
Priest of Fenris: speaker of the dead
Priest of Fenris: caster of runes
Command squad
Command squad
Command squad

Not that original, but it gets SW lists above 3,000 points, which would otherwise be a hard cap.

 

 

Since when do Priests get to be MotL ?

 

And no, even with just one Command Squad and the example I made in my previous post you can easily field 5.000 pts.


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#13
Karack Blackstone

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Praetor
Priest of Fenris: speaker of the dead
Priest of Fenris: caster of runes
Command squad
Command squad
Command squad
Not that original, but it gets SW lists above 3,000 points, which would otherwise be a hard cap.

 
Since when do Priests get to be MotL ?
 
And no, even with just one Command Squad and the example I made in my previous post you can easily field 5.000 pts.
Okay, so three Praetors/Consuls or whatever are MotL? And SW are stuck with one HQ per 1,000 points, thus some confusion on this thread.

#14
Caillum

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For the occurrences that take you over 3000 points, you can add Command Squads to any "Master of the Legion" you have, and take the Wolf-kin of Russ (provided you also take the Primarch). Neither of these take up a HQ slot, but count as HQ units, like Unknown Legionnaire says.

However, I believe it also means that the Space Wolves simply have the ability to take a HQ choice for every 1000 points, overriding the normal 3 HQ restriction. This means filling 4 HQ slots is fine from 3001 to 4000 points. This can be 4 Praetors, Centurions, Consuls, Priests of Fenris, Unique HQs, Command Squads, or any combination thereof (including 0-1 Damocles).

My reasoning? Because it says they "...must include at least 1 HQ unit per 1,000 points or part thereof in the army regardless of the Force Allocation chart being used." Emphasis mine.
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#15
Karack Blackstone

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For the occurrences that take you over 3000 points, you can add Command Squads to any "Master of the Legion" you have, and take the Wolf-kin of Russ (provided you also take the Primarch). Neither of these take up a HQ slot, but count as HQ units, like Unknown Legionnaire says.
However, I believe it also means that the Space Wolves simply have the ability to take a HQ choice for every 1000 points, overriding the normal 3 HQ restriction. This means filling 4 HQ slots is fine from 3001 to 4000 points. This can be 4 Praetors, Centurions, Consuls, Priests of Fenris, Unique HQs, Command Squads, or any combination thereof (including 0-1 Damocles).
My reasoning? Because it says they "...must include at least 1 HQ unit per 1,000 points or part thereof in the army regardless of the Force Allocation chart being used." Emphasis mine.


Thanks. That is what I thought, is Russ a Master of the Legion? If so, cap moves up to 9000.

#16
Purge the Daemon

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For the occurrences that take you over 3000 points, you can add Command Squads to any "Master of the Legion" you have, and take the Wolf-kin of Russ (provided you also take the Primarch). Neither of these take up a HQ slot, but count as HQ units, like Unknown Legionnaire says.
However, I believe it also means that the Space Wolves simply have the ability to take a HQ choice for every 1000 points, overriding the normal 3 HQ restriction. This means filling 4 HQ slots is fine from 3001 to 4000 points. This can be 4 Praetors, Centurions, Consuls, Priests of Fenris, Unique HQs, Command Squads, or any combination thereof (including 0-1 Damocles).
My reasoning? Because it says they "...must include at least 1 HQ unit per 1,000 points or part thereof in the army regardless of the Force Allocation chart being used." Emphasis mine.

Thanks. That is what I thought, is Russ a Master of the Legion? If so, cap moves up to 9000.

All primarchs are masters of the Legion. But it really seems clear that you simply can take more hqs than the foc allows as per the line quoted above. Though you are still limited by one master of the Legion per 1000 points. You also can't voluntary break the foc but if your points to exceed 3k you may add additional hqs.
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#17
Caillum

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Yes he is, but my point is that there is no cap. You simply must take a HQ choice per 1000 points.

If you stay within the normal rules, you can take 3 Praetors, 4 Command Squads (1 from Leman Russ) and the Wolf-kin. That's 8 HQ choices max, so you're only allowed to go to 8000 points (redundant, since you're basically in Apocalypse territory).

My reasoning is that if you have a 9000-point game, you can take 9 Praetors, or a combination of 9 of the choices I mentioned previously.

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#18
Jarkaira

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^^ Based on what logic?

Just House Rule that instead of trying to argue that even FOC gots changed because of restrictions intended for Space Wolves.

Edited by Jarkaira, 13 February 2017 - 02:30 PM.

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#19
Caillum

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Yay! I finally get to quote myself! :)

My reasoning? Because it says they "...must include at least 1 HQ unit per 1,000 points or part thereof in the army regardless of the Force Allocation chart being used." Emphasis mine.


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#20
Jarkaira

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Oh it was emphasis, not addition :)

If it actually says that then it is fine.
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#21
Grieux

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Space Wolves can go beyond 3,000 points by taking additional HQs ignoring the FOC, it is spelled out word by word on book 7 so there's absolutely no confusion ("regardless of Force Allocation chart"). RAW and RAI.

 

Also only the first HQ you take must be a Praetor or a Centurion, the rest is just any HQ per every 1 point over the previous thousand.

 

And as a SW player, I can't see how that makes list building hard. You were already including one Praetor or Centurion for sure. Then a Speaker of the Dead with your Deathsworn is practically an auto-include.

 

Our army is all about heroes and their sagas and has always been like that. Nothing new here.


Edited by Grieux, 15 February 2017 - 10:38 AM.

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#22
Lord Blackwood

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I find it amusing how far this conversation has come from my initial question. 

All I was trying to do was get confirmation that  The Wolf Kin of Russ could fill a HQ slot for the sake of our list building restrictions. 

In my original post I have a hypothetical 2500 situation in which I Include
Praetor 
Speaker
Wolfkin

The only qustion I raised was if the Wolfkin fill a slot for the sake of our lists. 



#23
Grieux

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Yup that was quite a swirl it took. I´d be fine with em counting as an HQ slot. After all they´re only in if Russ is present and if Russ doesn´t count as leadership for the Rout, not sure what does.



#24
defl0

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Praetor
Priest of Fenris: speaker of the dead
Priest of Fenris: caster of runes
Command squad
Command squad
Command squad

Not that original, but it gets SW lists above 3,000 points, which would otherwise be a hard cap.

 

 

Since when do Priests get to be MotL ?

 

And no, even with just one Command Squad and the example I made in my previous post you can easily field 5.000 pts.

 

 

Well technically, it say you have to a praetor or centurion as your compulsory HQ. But the force org chart only has 1 compulsory HQ. 

 

Then there is a secondary requirement to take 1 HQ per 1 points. 

 

It never says anything about those other HQs having to be "compulsory" HQs. 

 

So yes, priests would count. IMO


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#25
Purge the Daemon

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Yup that was quite a swirl it took. I´d be fine with em counting as an HQ slot. After all they´re only in if Russ is present and if Russ doesn´t count as leadership for the Rout, not sure what does.


They for sure count as they have a whole blurb about could ignore as an HQ for all special rules and scenarios but just not taking up a slot.

But why it makes list buildingfor wolves hard is two things
A) transport room (especially the wolf kin as they need 8 slots for them and Russ who they must ride with)
B) you spend a :cuss ton of points on HQ which really doesn't do that much. (You lose out on a lot of options especially if you want to take Russ at 3k or lower as you spend 1k on just characters)



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