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#751
Rathamanti

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I thought I remembered at one of the events earlier this year that they were an estranged Ultramarines successor, though I could be mistaken.

They were described as such repeatedly at the Weekender; Aaron gave that reason for his being on the Ultramarines panel.
Also,
Spoiler
I guess that settles it, then! That’s what I thought to begin with. Their somewhat savage nature and their kneepads threw me off...

Edited by Rathamanti, 07 November 2018 - 08:35 AM.


#752
A D-B

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I thought I remembered at one of the events earlier this year that they were an estranged Ultramarines successor, though I could be mistaken.

They were described as such repeatedly at the Weekender; Aaron gave that reason for his being on the Ultramarines panel.

Also,
Spoiler

 

 

Yep. They're a lesson/reminder of the scale of the setting. 60% of Space Marine Chapters are from Ultramarines gene-stock. That doesn't mean 60% of Chapters are just Ultramarines-lite, or even similar to the Ultramarines.

 

I've never liked it when Chapters are shaped purely by their genetic code, or that being their defining trait. Homeworld, culture, and actual experience over the course of centuries/millennia have a far, far greater role.

 

EDIT: See also - the Celestial Lions, Executioners, and Black Templars. They're not just Imperial Fists.


Edited by A D-B, 07 November 2018 - 09:23 AM.

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#753
Kelborn

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Other prominent examples: Mortifactors or Iron Snakes :)
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#754
b1soul

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If Guilliman were somehow to reconstitute his gene-sons into a single legion "Last Wall" style...dayum, that's a lot of dudes

#755
Marshal Rohr

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If Guilliman were somehow to reconstitute his gene-sons into a single legion "Last Wall" style...dayum, that's a lot of dudes


Only the ones who are aware/care about being ultras successors would answer.
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#756
aa.logan

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Well, so much for taking my time with it and reading it slowly...

I *was* just going to read one more chapter, but that ballooned somewhat. I had to stop to sleep, and then walk the dogs but otherwise I barely put it down until it was finished.

Possible minor spoilers follow

Spoiler


The book is great, Elara’s Veil has the potential to be the setting for some amazing stories and I’m more than happy to own the special edition of this. I’m not sure which of Aaron’s series I’m now looking forward to the next book of most. No pressure, though.

Spoiler Based on something said at the Weekender:
Spoiler


Possible huge development spoiler
Spoiler

Edited by aa.logan, 07 November 2018 - 12:43 PM.

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#757
b1soul

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I think a lot are aware or even mistakenly believe they are

#758
Marshal Rohr

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If you had a random cousin show up from another country, I'm sure you'd offer them food and hospitality, but I don't think you'd upend your life and drop everything if they asked. (Which is another massive flaw in the Codex Reforms).


Edited by Marshal Rohr, 07 November 2018 - 01:16 PM.

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#759
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Looks like they care a lot more for their fellow warden chapters around Elara's Veil - the Celestial Lions and destroyed Star Scorpions - than anything linked by geneseed. Based on the shot of the Index Astartes Valrak posted, there's actual animosity between the Spears and the Ultramarines/their 'cousin' chapters. I mean a few hundred snakes as a gift every decade is... a lot of snakes.

 

@aa.logan: thanks for the notes, sounds good. The idea of this being close to Cornwell's Arthur books (his best work by a mile) is very promising, particularly if it's in style and approach as well as 'just' the Emperor's Spears having broadly sub-Roman British styled culture.

 

One minor thing though. Just from checking the Star Scorpions on lexicanum to confirm that they're dead, I noticed something about the Mentors reusing the heraldry of the Star Scorpions, being founded after their destruction. Now that's 30 year old WD background at this stage but... does it come up anywhere in the novel? Some interesting character stuff could be hung on a scrap of background like that.



#760
aa.logan

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Looks like they care a lot more for their fellow warden chapters around Elara's Veil - the Celestial Lions and destroyed Star Scorpions - than anything linked by geneseed. Based on the shot of the Index Astartes Valrak posted, there's actual animosity between the Spears and the Ultramarines/their 'cousin' chapters. I mean a few hundred snakes as a gift every decade is... a lot of snakes.
 
@aa.logan: thanks for the notes, sounds good. The idea of this being close to Cornwell's Arthur books (his best work by a mile) is very promising, particularly if it's in style and approach as well as 'just' the Emperor's Spears having broadly sub-Roman British styled culture.
 
One minor thing though. Just from checking the Star Scorpions on lexicanum to confirm that they're dead, I noticed something about the Mentors reusing the heraldry of the Star Scorpions, being founded after their destruction. Now that's 30 year old WD background at this stage but... does it come up anywhere in the novel? Some interesting character stuff could be hung on a scrap of background like that.

Yes, style and approach are similar as much as themes- it’s even framed in the same way.

As for the Star Scorpions
Spoiler

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#761
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Exciting, thank you!



#762
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I thought I remembered at one of the events earlier this year that they were an estranged Ultramarines successor, though I could be mistaken.

They were described as such repeatedly at the Weekender; Aaron gave that reason for his being on the Ultramarines panel.

Also,
Spoiler

 

Yep. They're a lesson/reminder of the scale of the setting. 60% of Space Marine Chapters are from Ultramarines gene-stock. That doesn't mean 60% of Chapters are just Ultramarines-lite, or even similar to the Ultramarines.

 

I've never liked it when Chapters are shaped purely by their genetic code, or that being their defining trait. Homeworld, culture, and actual experience over the course of centuries/millennia have a far, far greater role.

 

EDIT: See also - the Celestial Lions, Executioners, and Black Templars. They're not just Imperial Fists.

I get the feeling you're the only writer I've seen who does that. Because all I've seen of Ultramarines successors, barring the Mortifactors or Iron Snakes are "Ultramarines, but a different colour". Same with the Imperial Fists (barring the three you've mentioned) and Dark Angels laugh.png

 

Good to know you've tried to change that with your writing. Because the other thing is censored.gif'ing BORING


Edited by Gederas, 07 November 2018 - 07:12 PM.


#763
Apothecary Vaddon

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I thought I remembered at one of the events earlier this year that they were an estranged Ultramarines successor, though I could be mistaken.

They were described as such repeatedly at the Weekender; Aaron gave that reason for his being on the Ultramarines panel.

Also,
Spoiler

 

Yep. They're a lesson/reminder of the scale of the setting. 60% of Space Marine Chapters are from Ultramarines gene-stock. That doesn't mean 60% of Chapters are just Ultramarines-lite, or even similar to the Ultramarines.

 

I've never liked it when Chapters are shaped purely by their genetic code, or that being their defining trait. Homeworld, culture, and actual experience over the course of centuries/millennia have a far, far greater role.

 

EDIT: See also - the Celestial Lions, Executioners, and Black Templars. They're not just Imperial Fists.

I get the feeling you're the only writer I've seen who does that. Because all I've seen of Ultramarines successors, barring the Mortifactors or Iron Snakes are "Ultramarines, but a different colour". Same with the Imperial Fists (barring the three you've mentioned) and Dark Angels laugh.png

 

Good to know you've tried to change that with your writing.

 

Haley's Novamarines and his BA successors to a degree, pretty much anyone who writes Flesh Tearers stuff, Kearney's Dark Hunters was pretty apart from WS with a different flavor. Unfortunately DA successors on the rare occasion they do appear get pigeon-holed into being super similar to DA, but I think the problem is a lot less that successors are the same as their parent chapters, rather that we really just don't see a lot of Successor fiction. It's good to see something like Spear of the Emperor coming out to kind of provide alternatives to the Big Few, as it were.

 

There's probably some kind of sales/marketing justification for the majority of works being about First Founding Chapters, but whatever.



#764
Jareddm

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I thought I remembered at one of the events earlier this year that they were an estranged Ultramarines successor, though I could be mistaken.

They were described as such repeatedly at the Weekender; Aaron gave that reason for his being on the Ultramarines panel.

Also,
Spoiler

 

Yep. They're a lesson/reminder of the scale of the setting. 60% of Space Marine Chapters are from Ultramarines gene-stock. That doesn't mean 60% of Chapters are just Ultramarines-lite, or even similar to the Ultramarines.

 

I've never liked it when Chapters are shaped purely by their genetic code, or that being their defining trait. Homeworld, culture, and actual experience over the course of centuries/millennia have a far, far greater role.

 

EDIT: See also - the Celestial Lions, Executioners, and Black Templars. They're not just Imperial Fists.

I get the feeling you're the only writer I've seen who does that. Because all I've seen of Ultramarines successors, barring the Mortifactors or Iron Snakes are "Ultramarines, but a different colour". Same with the Imperial Fists (barring the three you've mentioned) and Dark Angels laugh.png

 

Good to know you've tried to change that with your writing. Because the other thing is censored.gif'ing BORING

 

I feel this comes more from the tabletop.  It's a common belief among players I've met that chapters that use the same chapter tactics rules are essentially palette-swaps of one another.  Or one step up from that, that the only meaningful differences between chapters is in their company organizations, as opposed to things like homeworld culture, traditions, and values.  All of the Ultramarine successors I can think of that have been given a bit of screen time have shown themselves to differ from the Ultramarines.  The Obsidian Glaives, the Doom Legion, the Howling Griffons.  It's just that on the tabletop, they'd all play the same.


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#765
Kelborn

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Problem with DA successors is that they are way more affiliated with their parent chapter than all the others.

In the end, they still speak of themselves as a Legion.

I agree that I'd love to see a different take on them, as well.
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#766
Marshal Rohr

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It is absolutely a construction of the game itself.


Your opinion is important, and someone posting here probably does care what you think. You should go tell them. Remember that it really hurts to come up with an idea you care about and have no one else care. Go care about something and tell them what you think. Now. Think of what it would have meant to you when you were young.

 

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#767
A D-B

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I thought I remembered at one of the events earlier this year that they were an estranged Ultramarines successor, though I could be mistaken.

They were described as such repeatedly at the Weekender; Aaron gave that reason for his being on the Ultramarines panel.

Also,
Spoiler

 

Yep. They're a lesson/reminder of the scale of the setting. 60% of Space Marine Chapters are from Ultramarines gene-stock. That doesn't mean 60% of Chapters are just Ultramarines-lite, or even similar to the Ultramarines.

 

I've never liked it when Chapters are shaped purely by their genetic code, or that being their defining trait. Homeworld, culture, and actual experience over the course of centuries/millennia have a far, far greater role.

 

EDIT: See also - the Celestial Lions, Executioners, and Black Templars. They're not just Imperial Fists.

I get the feeling you're the only writer I've seen who does that. Because all I've seen of Ultramarines successors, barring the Mortifactors or Iron Snakes are "Ultramarines, but a different colour". Same with the Imperial Fists (barring the three you've mentioned) and Dark Angels laugh.png

 

Good to know you've tried to change that with your writing.

 

Haley's Novamarines and his BA successors to a degree, pretty much anyone who writes Flesh Tearers stuff, Kearney's Dark Hunters was pretty apart from WS with a different flavor. Unfortunately DA successors on the rare occasion they do appear get pigeon-holed into being super similar to DA, but I think the problem is a lot less that successors are the same as their parent chapters, rather that we really just don't see a lot of Successor fiction. It's good to see something like Spear of the Emperor coming out to kind of provide alternatives to the Big Few, as it were.

 

There's probably some kind of sales/marketing justification for the majority of works being about First Founding Chapters, but whatever.

 

That's a very good point. Visibility, not a setting-wide statement.

 

And there's safety in the lore, too. Plenty of Successor Chapters are very similar to their parent Chapters, like the Genesis Chapter or plenty of the Blood Angels and Dark Angels' Successors, f'rex. "My" Chapter, the Angels Numinous, are more or less the Blood Angels with their serial numbers filed off, and slightly meaner. So I do it as much as anyone, and it's totally valid. 

 

But yeah, it's definitely a marketing deal, at times. And not necessarily in a money/mercenary way, but in the sense that a lot of the time, the books promote the lore people like and are familiar with, because they're the audience. That's what they expect and want, and are familiar with from years of the lore.

 

Anyway, I'm going back to being too scared to read any opinions of the novel for another, say, 5-6 weeks. The book release ritual demands nothing less. 


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#768
Draakur

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Not seeing an entry under Coming Soon on Black Library... please tell me it won’t be long :(
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#769
fire golem

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Not seeing an entry under Coming Soon on Black Library... please tell me it won’t be long :(


The limited edition won’t be long. The normal release is 6 months later I think.

#770
Reclusiarch Krieg

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They didn't have it at Warhammer World today :(


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#771
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They didn't have it at Warhammer World today :(


They wouldn’t, it’s not out yet. It was a prerelease at the Black Library event.

#772
LordValrak

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EDIT: See also - the Celestial Lions, Executioners, and Black Templars. They're not just Imperial Fists.

 

 

You know, if you want to do something with them, you have my blessing.


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#773
b1soul

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Space Wolves vs. Executioners...go go go!
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#774
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Again, Badab War series, you know it makes sense.
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#775
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I went from squirming at the price and worrying no one would buy it, to being blown away when I saw the real deal. You can likely imagine my naked relief at that emotion. 

 

My personal highlight might be the Jes Goodwin-approved multi-layered diagram of a Space Marine's armour coming away in layers, which was a huge deal internally, as it's the first time GW has ever shown it in anything like that detail.

 

 

 

Totally agree Aaron. Picked up my copy at the Weekender. I know I was very suspicious a few weeks ago when we first saw how expensive it was, and how that reminded of last year's Warmaster LE, but having unboxed it, this is a different story.

 

Would I love it it if BL didn't use this great book as an opportunity to charge an insane amount of money ( 85 pounds is beyond absurd)? I would, regular hardback would be fine. But that said, this is a nice LE, the book itself looks very good and the 16 page chapter background book is a real treat. And like yourself I find the multi layared diagram a real treat. But the background info is very interesting as well. Pins and marker also nice.






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