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a question for the loyalists...


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#1
paulJam

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saw an ad for rogue1 on a bus today, s.troopers running at r.scum... it's an old ad, we're not that backward :P

 

which made me think; "given i (hobby) approve of the 40k Empire and what it stands for how can i be against the SW empire as a political entity (if nothing else it bypasses the rabble of a filthy xenos senate)?"

 

there are numerous parallels that could be drawn between the two settings and without wanting to get too deeply into 'other franchise' territory, as a 'Empire loyalist' do you consider the 'empire' (lowercase) to be the good guys?

 


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#2
Dolchiate Remembrancer

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I've always considered them more a necessary evil in 40K vs SW. The fact being that we are more aware of the "outside" threat in 40K, where as it feels like there is no threat to humanity in SW aside for the Empire itself.


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#3
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I see them as anti heroes. You don't have to like them, their methods are downright despicable at times but they fight for a cause they fanatically believe in with an ends justifies the means kind of attitude. A sort of we're going to save you whether you like it or not I guess and we may kill you in the process.

Then back this up with a laboured, almost dying empire, drowning in it's own superstition and bureaucracy that sees itself surrounded by enemies assailing it from all sides and not really being able to trust their own people.

That pretty much sums the Imperium up for me, an insane macabre carnival worshiping a corpse in a universe teetering on destruction if that makes any sense?   


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#4
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Seems a roundabout way of asking "do you consider the Imperium the good guys?". Good and bad is not objective, it's relative and defined by various morales etc. By our standards the Imperium is well into the "evil" territory but by 40k's standards they're very much the lesser evil. Which makes them the good guys by default as everyone else is that much worse!

 

So by the terms set out by 40k the Imperium are the good guys as they're trying to save humanity against the perfidious alien (really do want to kill you... at best) and evil daemon (actually exist; will eat your soul). In a universe that's only very dark shades of black, the really-really-dark-grey looks white by comparison...


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#5
paulJam

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WarriorFish agree with the labeling issues. and that's kind of the point.

labeling the 40k Imperium as good or bad is subjective; theoretically it's there to protect humanity and kill everything else (which also serves to protect humanity).

 

Dolchiate Remembrance agree that the level of alien threat is far less (or negligible).

that the SW folk chose to interact with xenos is (from a 40k perspective) a mistake and extreme heresy.

in 40k there are no alliances (sweeping statement) with xenos, i.e. tau, eldar. any interaction is only until a mutual strategic threat is defeated then it's back to killing the alien.

 

in SW the first lines of scrolly text specially mentions '...first victory against the Evil Empire...'. clearly in the SW franchise they consider their empire to be evil (queue recurring, emotive and boding Imperial march music).

 

so if we don't consider the 40k Imperium to be evil (based on it's a necessity from humanity's perspective) then can we also conclude that the SW equivalent is equally not evil at all?   in which case perhaps the rebellion is just another undermining cult.

when i see SW stuff i'm not automatically  rebellion = good guys anymore.     being a 40k follower do you get that as well?

 

sorry for the rambling question.


 


#6
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40k is satire that's just self-coherent and aware that it holds up fairly well as an example of what it's satirizing.(nationalism that slides over into outright facism mostly)
So 40k is a fictional account of a setting that is so extreme that super xenophobic facism makes logical sense, and has enough in-universe justifications that it isn't, by any means, the worst thing out there, and it's extreme measures are merely representative of the dangers in the 40k galaxy.
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Edited by Bryan Blaire, 17 February 2017 - 02:10 AM.
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#7
Brother Sefiel

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The Imperium is utterly demented, what with its regression to bizarre religious fanaticism, ridiculous, world-destroying amounts of power given out to individuals that often become the radicals that they opposed when they were younger, intolerance to the extent of marines executing a third of the population of a sector because they forgot that they were there to protect humans through being stronger than them (or something equally-ridiculous) etc.

The Imperium is revolting, and the only reason to support it is out of racist survivalism (much like all of the other racists for all of the other species). The tau are the least racist, so arguably they are the most moral of the 40k forces, although the eldar seem to be making up for things a bit at the moment. I don't agree that the Imperium is a lesser evil than most of the rest of the "cultures" of the setting at all. Even the dark eldar _have_ to do what they do to survive Slaanesh...

Edited to remove a couple of lines about a different setting because I saw a mod had replied in the meantime.


Edited by Brother Sefiel, 17 February 2017 - 12:54 AM.

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#8
Eddie Orlock

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... in 40k there are no alliances (sweeping statement) with xenos, i.e. tau, eldar. any interaction is only until a mutual strategic threat is defeated then it's back to killing the alien. ...

This wasn't always true, and depending on how nuance you applied in your interpretation of the setting and ignored Templar bluster, likely never was. An entire Imeprially Sanctioned, if very distributed, establishment existed to treat with aliens, Rogue Traders. An office which has never been absent from the setting, just usually off screen.

...so if we don't consider the 40k Imperium to be evil (based on it's a necessity from humanity's perspective) then can we also conclude that the SW equivalent is equally not evil at all?   in which case perhaps the rebellion is just another undermining cult. ...

The difference, as the Fish alludes above, is the contexts of the respective empires. In Star Wars the aliens from another dimension aren't going to eat your souls, boil you down into narcotics, and scour your planets clean down to the bed rock for the biomass. Taking Jabba as an example they'll just engage in petty 'evils' like loan sharking and gun running. You can negotiate with the Huts. It's been at least twenty years in real life since the 'Nids had Zoats for you to negotiate with and all slaneesh really wants is elder souls, though yours'll do in a pinch.
 
As the Unseen remarks, much of 40k is rooted in satire and more akin to things like 'Nemesis the Warlock' than anything related to Lucas Arts.
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#9
Mirbeau

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saw an ad for rogue1 on a bus today, s.troopers running at r.scum... it's an old ad, we're not that backward tongue.png

 

which made me think; "given i (hobby) approve of the 40k Empire and what it stands for how can i be against the SW empire as a political entity (if nothing else it bypasses the rabble of a filthy xenos senate)?"

 

there are numerous parallels that could be drawn between the two settings and without wanting to get too deeply into 'other franchise' territory, as a 'Empire loyalist' do you consider the 'empire' (lowercase) to be the good guys?

I don't think you have to believe in the righteousness of the Imperium to be a loyalist player. However, in the spirit of the question, it can be answered in one word: Chaos. The non-eu star wars universe doesn't have xenos empires who want to extinguish mankind (or who are in a position to do so), nor more pertinently does it have the warp, daemons etc. The nightmare that is the Imperium is an expediency in light of all that, not the humanitarian solution but too far gone and too assailed to rectify it's course. And if you follow ADB's advancements in the MoM, they're the dying embers of a war long since lost and typically death spasms are not pretty.

 

That said, the imperium (and likely the Empire too) is too vast to tar with one brush, it has some shreds of decency in places - an ironic example (as they are hypno-indoctrinated, hyper-violent, trans/in-human analogues to imperial stormtroopers), many of the marine chapters do not believe in the Emperor's divinity, have little truck with the more negative aspects of the imperium (the Ecclesiasticy as an example) and still hold themselves to the more (not ideal, but better in terms of 20th C Western liberalism (small L intentional)) standards of the imperial truth and great crusade.


Edited by Mirbeau, 17 February 2017 - 01:22 AM.


#10
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Supporting the Imperium is easy: the next best alternative is slavery under the Orks or whatever the Etherals do to their human conquests (the hints in the fluff are they are disappeared.)  Moving down the scale, there is being eaten by the Tyranids and then at the very bottom is being taken alive by either the Dark Eldar or Chaos.  

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#11
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saw an ad for rogue1 on a bus today, s.troopers running at r.scum... it's an old ad, we're not that backward tongue.png

 

which made me think; "given i (hobby) approve of the 40k Empire and what it stands for how can i be against the SW empire as a political entity (if nothing else it bypasses the rabble of a filthy xenos senate)?"

 

there are numerous parallels that could be drawn between the two settings and without wanting to get too deeply into 'other franchise' territory, as a 'Empire loyalist' do you consider the 'empire' (lowercase) to be the good guys?

The Imperium of Man defends its charge by any means necessary against literal Daemons and all other manner of horrors of the galaxy, standing in the face of literal gods to do so. The little acts of evil they commit are done to preserve the very species, because something so little as skipping an Exterminatus out of a bleeding heart could result in trillions more having their very souls devoured by Daemons.

 

The Galactic Empire is a bunch of mustache twirling censored.gif  who kill their own for no reason but their own amusement. Such as the Death Star. Completely senseless destruction of a planet and its population. In 40k that'd get an Inquisitor fething executed for complete waste of human life and strategic resources. The Galactic Empire on a whole behaves a lot like cartoon villains rather than rational men facing total annihilation on a daily basis. We know what the Imperium is like when it's not facing the threat speciocide and/or enslavement of the human race, and it was a nice place.


Edited by Volt, 17 February 2017 - 03:17 AM.

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#12
Not 1 Step Backwards

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I happen to be in the school of thought where the 40k universe is satirical.  In other words, of course the Imperium's supposed to be evil, necessary or the lesser of or otherwise, just as every other race or faction is: that's the whole grimdark joke.

 

But the grimdark joke only works for a very important reason: the Imperium is evil, but the individuals in it are not.  The people, on a one-by-one basis, are doing what they sincerely believe is best.  It's just unfortunate their accumulated efforts have the opposite result, due to the bureaucracy, the political infighting, the mob mentality.  I.e. a person is smart, but people are dumb.

 

And it has to be that way for the grimdark joke to work.  The victims of the prank cannot be in on the prank, otherwise, there is no prank.  That's comedy!

 

-----

 

Checking my own views, if there is a bias on my part, it is partly shaped by how I 1st entered the Hobby in the middle of 1st ed, back when it was called Rogue Trader, and the joke was telegraphed.

 

I've noticed in subsequent editions, they increasingly portrayed the Imperium as the traditional white hat good guys.  I'm actually re-reading the Daemonifuge comic, which came around 3rd ed and still pretty much portrayed the Imperium as outright evil or so dysfunctional that it let itself become the instrument of evil.

 

Philosophical debates, good and evil relativism, moral equivalency...all that aside, I'm curious what edition you started in The Hobby, as that boarding point might've shaped your views!

 

-----

 

So some of our Fraters, very rightly, mentioned UK's 2000 A.D. comics, like Nemesis the Warlock.  As I said, I'm reading Daemonifuge now, done by many of the same artists, like my personal favourite, Kev Walker, of ABC Warriors fame!  So that comparison is very relevant IMHO.

 

But the famous comic that I would instinctively compare the setting to is Judge Dredd.  Again, it's NOT unrelated; Games Workshop worked on the Judge Dredd miniatures game at the same time as 40k.  Rick Priestley was totally in on the joke, in fact, he had mastered it.

 

I'll just share this poignant experience with you.  I was on an comics-related imageboard where it was asked:

 

 

Who is Judge Dredd's archenemy?

 

People were saying "Judge Death" or this villain or that, but I was trying to be clever and I replied:

 

 

Judge Dredd's archenemy is Mega-City One.

 

I was so smug about it, thinking I was so deep, then someone responded to my reply:

 

 

 

Judge Dredd's archenemy is Mega-City One.  Mega-City One's archenemy is Judge Dredd.

FTFY

 

That guy was right to correct me.  He totally got the joke.  So now, I ask you this:

 

Who is the Imperium's archenemy, really?


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#13
Bryan Blaire

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Sorry folks, I apologize for my early comment and the edited post. Please feel free to discuss.

As far as the actual question that addresses 40K in the first post: No, the Imperium are not the "good guys" in my mind.

Edited by Bryan Blaire, 17 February 2017 - 04:17 AM.

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#14
Volt

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Not 1 Step Backwards: The Imperium isn't really evil though. As a government it is completely justified in its actions by the adversity it faces constantly. Every sin committed is done out of literally the best possible cause, which is ensuring the species survives one more day. When survival of the species is on the line, all actions taken to protect it from annihilation are acceptable and just. Human rights is nice and all, but it takes a hike in a war of survival, especially one that lasts for ten thousand years. Not that the Imperium is that bad of a place either, the novels go to show the Imperium is a pretty OK place to live so long as you're away from the fighting and aren't unfortunate to get drafted.

 

 

(Although statistically, a Guardsman is probably more likely going to end up fighting either a minor Ork threat or a simple Rebellion. Which has a much greater chance of survival than say, fighting Chaos, and will result in that Guardsmen becoming a lord or at least a man with a wide swath of land on the worlds he or she helps liberate).


Edited by Dosjetka, 17 February 2017 - 09:39 AM.
No need to quote the whole, very long post.

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#15
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The Imperium is, "the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable." They as an empire, are undeniably evil. It's just that the other alternatives are worse, so in the setting they are the closest thing we have to traditional "good guys". They are the lightest shade of grey in a galaxy of darker greys, and outright blacks. This is part of the charm of the setting, and I love it.

That other setting has bad guys and good guys, and while the bad guys sometimes have justifications for their actions, they are still bad guys. The good guys are clearly the ones you are supposed to root for, and mostly I do, although I sometimes watch their movies through a 40k lens, hoping for purges of the xenophiles and recidivists, heretics one and all.

#16
The Unseen

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The Imperium isn't really evil though. As a government it is completely justified in its actions by the adversity it faces constantly. Every sin committed is done out of literally the best possible cause, which is ensuring the species survives one more day. When survival of the species is on the line, all actions taken to protect it from annihilation are acceptable and just. Human rights is nice and all, but it takes a hike in a war of survival, especially one that lasts for ten thousand years. Not that the Imperium is that bad of a place either, the novels go to show the Imperium is a pretty OK place to live so long as you're away from the fighting and aren't unfortunate to get drafted.

(Although statistically, a Guardsman is probably more likely going to end up fighting either a minor Ork threat or a simple Rebellion. Which has a much greater chance of survival than say, fighting Chaos, and will result in that Guardsmen becoming a lord or at least a man with a wide swath of land on the worlds he or she helps liberate).

I'm a young one, I didn't get started till 4th edition, but I was lucky enough to both be rather philosophically inclined, and had access to the older rulebook's and comics to read, so I've always known that 40k is at its heart satire. (Funnily enough, I found the original 2nd edition rulebook digging through my father's stuff in the back of a closet, it's what got me into 40k. Looking back, I'm really lucky I found those books, and not something else people usually hide on the back of closets.)

And the Imperium is still definetely evil, for sure.
It commits atrocities so often, making the argument that it isn't certifiably evil is laughable, since it's quite clear that for most the ends do most assuredly not justify any means.
But it's also the lesser among many many evils.


Edited by Dosjetka, 17 February 2017 - 09:41 AM.
No need to quote a wall of text/quotes.

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#17
Ulfgrim Alvsbane

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Do you consider the 'empire' (lowercase) to be the good guys?

 

So let's say a military installation  was attacked by insurgents who object to the duly elected government, and many people who only wanted to serve their nation were killed because of it?  Those soldiers aren't responsible for the policy of the "evil empire" that the "resistance" claims them to be, they're just patriots or people who want to protect their families from this random violence?

 

Now am I talking about Star Wars, or maybe something in real life?  It's not as cut and dried as the pro-rebels would like it to be.  The rebels are only the "good guys" in their own story.  One man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist.

 

When it comes to 40K, the Imperium may be brutal and oppressive, but it exists to hold back threats that are even more brutal and oppressive.  The average Imperial citizen may have a life of back-breaking labor and live in squalor, but if the Orks land on his world, his life will be far worse (at least, what little is left of it).


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#18
Volt

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I'm a young one, I didn't get started till 4th edition, but I was lucky enough to both be rather philosophically inclined, and had access to the older rulebook's and comics to read, so I've always known that 40k is at its heart satire. (Funnily enough, I found the original 2nd edition rulebook digging through my father's stuff in the back of a closet, it's what got me into 40k. Looking back, I'm really lucky I found those books, and not something else people usually hide on the back of closets.)

And the Imperium is still definetely evil, for sure.
It commits atrocities so often, making the argument that it isn't certifiably evil is laughable, since it's quite clear that for most the ends do most assuredly not justify any means.
But it's also the lesser among many many evils.

No? The Imperium's actions are justified by the need to preserve humanity under utilitarianism. Killing billions of people is justified when the alternative is letting them live and serve as a daemonic threat to the entirety of the species, with the worst case scenario being a massive warp portal being opened by Chaos Cultists hiding amongst the exposed and summoning forth a massive host to butcher many more worlds. It is not evil at all, as it is simply the only action that can be rationally taken because every alternative is even worse. The Imperium is only problematic if you believe that a civilization should seriously operate as action-based ethics versus consequences when poised on the edge of a cliff.

Edited by Dosjetka, 17 February 2017 - 09:42 AM.
No need to quote the whole wall of text/quotes.

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#19
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The Imperium and Empire are both institutions that impose ORDER onto their subjects or those that they believe should be their subjects. Their methods are extreme, brutal, hate-mongering, and playing on the fears of the populace by presenting threats real and imagined, internal and external. They do these things for stability, order and galactic conquest/Manifest Destiny. A sort of galactic pecking order such as that enjoyed by the Faufreluches(?) of Herbert's Dune.

 

They are literally almost the same. They both even have nearly dead guys sitting in Thrones who can shoot lightning out of their hands. They both want to impose their version of order and law upon the galaxy based upon power, hierarchy and immutable adherence to the edicts handed down by their rule.

 

Individual morality means little in the face of these monolithic entities; these machines place men and women into the sausage grinder and make meat.

 

Haha Volt! I read a retort for that in Master of Mankind I think where characters were discussing cancer treatment in relation to the problem of dealing with rebellion. One character said something to the effect 'If you kill the patient then the cancer is no longer a problem.' and the other dude is like 'Thank the Throne you are not a doctor."



 

Am I the only one who didn't see Prospero Burns as some quantum leap paradigm shift in Space Wolf lore?

Because aside from them swigging ale instead of mjod and of course the fact that they growl like canines instead of soggy cheetahs I am not seeing how Sven, Ragnar, and of course Mighty Haegr would be at all out of place in the VI Legion of M31.


#20
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The Imperium and Empire are both institutions that impose ORDER onto their subjects or those that they believe should be their subjects. Their methods are extreme, brutal, hate-mongering, and playing on the fears of the populace by presenting threats real and imagined, internal and external. They do these things for stability, order and galactic conquest/Manifest Destiny. A sort of galactic pecking order such as that enjoyed by the Faufreluches(?) of Herbert's Dune.

 

They are literally almost the same. They both even have nearly dead guys sitting in Thrones who can shoot lightning out of their hands. They both want to impose their version of order and law upon the galaxy based upon power, hierarchy and immutable adherence to the edicts handed down by their rule.

 

Individual morality means little in the face of these monolithic entities; these machines place men and women into the sausage grinder and make meat.

 

Haha Volt! I read a retort for that in Master of Mankind I think where characters were discussing cancer treatment in relation to the problem of dealing with rebellion. One character said something to the effect 'If you kill the patient then the cancer is no longer a problem.' and the other dude is like 'Thank the Throne you are not a doctor."

Except the patient is the species, not the individual or even the population of entire planets. A planet tainted by Chaos is like a malign tumor- unless excised it will spread and taint other worlds until not only is the entire Imperium brought down under daemonic outbreaks, portals summoning forth Chaos Space Marines, and hordes of cultists overrunning the defenses. 40k is one of those few settings where the situation has gone so FUBAR that killing billions to save trillions is a legitimate solution. If you don't kill those people, something even worse will happen. 


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#21
Arkaniss

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I'm surprised no-one has made a comment on the posterboy soldiers for these two evil empires - Storm Troopers and Space Marines. To me both look pretty cool and so I'm a supporter of both :P

 

40k is more morally grey than SW which is painted as the classic good rebels vs bad empire but there are flaws in that argument too (how many people were on the death star...? Is Luke a mass murderer...?) but as mentioned for 40K the Imperium is a necessary evil. It is portrayed in the fluff as a galactic fight for survival and when the stakes are that high what wouldn't you justify?

 

The classic 'would you let one person die to save ten' conundrum, except because this is 40K it's 'would you let billions die to save countless more billions'... and as the stakes couldn't possibly be higher (with the survival of the human race and all) then I believe the decision is an obvious one. Which is why we justify our support for the Imperium.


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#22
Chaplain ChonkE

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Not to get ticky-tacky but I think that speaks more to your own morality and justification in preference to one organization over the other as to any real reason as to why the two empire's are different.

 

They both operate on the same paradigms. You are just discussing a difference in scale and made-up 'justifications' as to their actions. Their methods and methodology are very similar but one is justified because the highly propagandized narrative background told you "it's good" and the other infallible narrative (as far as we know) said "They're evil" in the rolling introduction?

 

I dont think it is as cut and dry as you lay out and more a matter of perspective like Ulfgrim laid out.


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Am I the only one who didn't see Prospero Burns as some quantum leap paradigm shift in Space Wolf lore?

Because aside from them swigging ale instead of mjod and of course the fact that they growl like canines instead of soggy cheetahs I am not seeing how Sven, Ragnar, and of course Mighty Haegr would be at all out of place in the VI Legion of M31.


#23
Volt

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Not to get ticky-tacky but I think that speaks more to your own morality and justification in preference to one organization over the other as to any real reason as to why the two empire's are different.

 

They both operate on the same paradigms. You are just discussing a difference in scale and made-up 'justifications' as to their actions. Their methods and methodology are very similar but one is justified because the highly propagandized narrative background told you "it's good" and the other infallible narrative (as far as we know) said "They're evil" in the rolling introduction?

 

I dont think it is as cut and dry as you lay out and more a matter of perspective like Ulfgrim laid out.

The fluff isn't propaganda. Not only was that statement made years ago, but it is quite obvious that much of the material, especially the novels which are told from the perspective of an omnipresent, omniscient third person perspective with knowledge that only some or nobody in-universe knows, is not propaganda. We have a clear cut vision of 40k, it's of a human empire that gutted itself in civil war under the influence of the Chaos Gods now plunged into ten thousand years of war where all sins committed are justified by the cause of protecting the human race from total extermination and ravaging of their souls by daemons. 

 

The Galactic Empire meanwhile is under no such threat, and unlike the Imperium pointlessly kills people just for the hell of it. The destruction of Alderaan was not only uncessary but a waste of life and strategic assets, along with Krennic and Tarkin being stupidly Death Star happy in Rogue One. Culminating in Tarkin blowing up the backup data for all GE records. The GE is pointlessly oppressive and aggressive in a galaxy where there are no threats. The Imperium of Man meanwhile operates as it does because of necessity. It is utilitarian in nature, and believes that the ends justify the means (and they're not wrong on that). The problem is that you probably have ethics based upon deontology. Almost everybody in the modern west does, that wouldn't be surprising. Deontological morality is among the first things to go out the window in a crisis. It's utilitarianism that gets you by. And in a crisis, leaders need to choose the means for the desired outcome, regardless of the cost. 

 

See how the Magyars fed themselves into the meat grinder to stop the Mongol Horde (twice) resulting in mass portions of their population being slaughtered in exchange for maintaining their freedom. Or the Thirty Years War, where large portions of Europe were depopulated via genocide over religious disagreements, and Kingdoms/Federations got ridiculous amounts of their soldiers killed just so they would still exist at the end of it. When gak hits the fan and you're up against the wall, everything done to buy one more second of life is justified by the circumstances.


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#24
Brother Sefiel

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Hello 

 

 

The fluff isn't propaganda. Not only was that statement made years ago, but it is quite obvious that much of the material, especially the novels which are told from the perspective of an omnipresent, omniscient third person perspective with knowledge that only some or nobody in-universe knows, is not propaganda. 

That's just the kind of thing a propagandist would say, of course!

The history of the setting changes whenever a GW writer lifts a pen or presses a key. You can't trust a word of the background. From a personal point of view I still like the idea of an Orwellian take on it regarding what is true or not. And since I won't be buying any primarch models I'll still be able to claim that they are a myth of the foundation of the Imperium, a recycled tale of fiction that was sued to cover up the true fall of humanity to its own hubris...

Meanwhile, the Imperium does far worse things than the Empire constantly. It's responsible for more wasteful violence and destruction every single day.

Let's be honest; without humans, the galaxy would have been much less terrible over the last 10000 years of 40k history...


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#25
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I'm not super-into SW, but I really like the Thrawn storyline. Basically an evil good guy... or something like that. Someone so pragmatic that they stray into evil territory.

The regular SW Empire on the other hand is bad guys, the setting states as much. They don't need to be as cruel towards their own population and their enemies as they are.

 

The Imperium on the other hand is never really stated as being the good guys. Within the setting, they also need to have stuff like the Inquistion and so on. I dunno, all sides are bad guys in 40k, talking about good or bad becomes a bit meaningless.

In star wars there is an actual good guys faction (though they toned that down slightly in Rogue One, with the talk of all the horrible immoral things rebel agents had been forced to do in the struggle against the Empire), so if you have good guys, you can also have bad guys. Though Scum (from x-wing) are probably the worst bad guys in SW, worse than the Empire at least.

 

I think all in all, SW is about good vs evil, while 40k is about evil vs evil, so comparisons become a bit forced.


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