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a question for the loyalists...


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128 replies to this topic

#126
Volt

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A joke is not funny to someone who takes it seriously. Just as someone who treats the Imperium with serious analysis misses the satire of its story.

Any subtlety on the part of GW went and died about a decade ago. Everything barring the new Regimental Standard is presented in a completely serious manner.

 

 

 

 

 

You dont seem to know the definiton of race. Race: "Each of the major divisions of human kind, each having distinct physical characteristics." Humans cant be racist against animals. It just doenst work that way lol. Hating other SPECIES is not racist, it is xenophobic. Dude you gotta know definitions

 

So you're using a dictionary definition from 20th Century Earth, where there's just one sentient species, to justify your own lack of understanding?  Ever heard the term "the human race"?  It's a phrase that's used even today.

 

38,000 years from now, humanity will be a mostly homogeneous species where those "racial" characteristics will be indistinct.  Physical characteristics will derive from environmental characteristics of planetary origin.

 

As for "gotta know your definitions"?  While you're looking up the modern definition of "racism", look up the definition of xenophobia as well.  Bet it says nothing about alien species.  In fact, its current use pertains to national origin.

 

The Orks are a race, the Eldar are a race, the Tau are a race, humanity is a race - regardless if they are brown humans or yellow humans or pink humans.

 

Please stop moving the goalposts. The terms are appropriate for our use, and not at all relevant to the then-archaic context in which you intend to employ them.

 

There is no reason why a member of one species should care about the life of another species. Human rights and equality ultimately only apply to humans, and not animals or other sapient species. Ultimately all aliens are realistically, an existential threat, because of the single empirical truth of humanoid life. Quoting Atomic Rockets website-

 

 


  1. THEIR SURVIVAL WILL BE MORE IMPORTANT THAN OUR SURVIVAL.

    If an alien species has to choose between them and us, they won't choose us. It is difficult to imagine a contrary case; species don't survive by being self-sacrificing.

  2. WIMPS DON'T BECOME TOP DOGS.

    No species makes it to the top by being passive. The species in charge of any given planet will be highly intelligent, alert, aggressive, and ruthless when necessary.

  3. THEY WILL ASSUME THAT THE FIRST TWO LAWS APPLY TO US.

 

Ultimately the logical action to take with aliens is to kill them so they don't kill you, and you can use those precious resources they were using before you came along. Also need I point out that Xenos stabbed humanity in the back and led to the death of trillions of humans and mass enslavement. You know what the galaxy was like before the Age of Strife? Relatively wonderful. There was a federation of human states in the Dark Age of Technology, and they allied with Xenos. You know what happened when Old Night hits and human civilization collapses? Most of those Xenos civilizations stabbed humanity in the back and killed huge swathes of them. That's why the Emperor when on his extermination crusade.


Edited by Volt, 19 February 2017 - 01:23 AM.

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#127
The Observer

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Alright, let's drag out the history books then, because the Imperium of Man is a feudal regime with faschistic elements. These things are not purely exclusive to one another. Much like Rudolf Schieffer, Karl-Hanz Spiess and Gerhard Lubich (Amongst others) in Das Lehnswesen im Hochmittelalter and the book The History of Feudalism(as edited by David Herlihy) explain, at times vast areas of the European continent have been ruled in what we today consider a feudalistic system, which is to say that rulership and ownership have been organized through fealty, tithing of monetary nature, but just as well food and bodies, the general idea of the triuwe, religious assimilation and monarchical bodies.

The Imperium of Man runs itself through precisely such a system. Every planet has to hand in its tithes, has to hold fealty towards Terra and must aknowledge its lower position in an overarching hierarchy, when compared to the High Lords of Terra and the Emperor for example. The question of religious dominance is a tricky one, because, as long as no outright heresy is present, the cultures may very well keep their respective religions and beliefs, as long as the Emperor is aknowledged as the sole deity of that belief. This is rather resembling of fictitious fiefdoms and tales that we encounter in middle-german minne and epos, such as the Nibelungenlied (The Lay of the Nibelungs in English, I believe), when we compare Rüdeger von Bechelaren to King Etzel of the Huns. The latter is pagan, while the former is a Christian and his subordinate. The reality in the middle ages was quite a different one, religious uniformity was much more strictly enforced. It was not enough to believe in the same god, but one had to believe in the same word and interpretation. Martin Luther is a prime example of just how quickly such things could escalate. The Imperium of Man is definitely a feudalistic system organized in the image of ancient fiefdoms and monarchies, there is no way of denying that.

To tag the IoM as faschist is not so simple. First of all, it must be stated that historians, humanists and political scientists have different definitions of fascism. The IoM is fascistic in so far as it includes Gestapo-esque elements such as the Inquisition, it actively brainwashes and lies to its citizens etc etc. In many ways, it is a socio-political construct similar to those that we engage with in A Clockwork Orange, 1984 or Fahreinheit 451. Opression, denial of education, propaganda, whatever you name, the IoM has it. There is an important distinction to be made however between these. Compared to the faschistic states of 20th Century scifi, the IoM is legitimized in doing what it does. If Mankind's survival and wellbeing indeed is or should be the main concern, then what the IoM does, is ensure that Mankind survives. 20th Century scifi oftentimes, and this is a gross over-simplification, when it deals with fascism-dystopia, depict governments and states that cannibalize citizens, their rights and ressources for personal gain, for greed. The IoM, primarily, protects its citizens through horrific deeds. That whole planet being nuked because one chaos cult sprang up on it? That was the right choice in the given context of the setting. The choice boils down to A.) Kill billions of innocent or B.) risk that ten or even hundreds of billions eat their own eyes and end up with flayed, reanimated bodies in the service of ancient, ever-hungering predators from beyond. The Imperium of Man is only in so far faschistic, because it commits acts that we identify with modern age fascism. It is, however, also not absolutely a faschistic regime, because it does what it does not for the sake of opression, personal gain, pleasure, sadism or other exploitative and derogatory reasons, but for the sake of the common survival. The path to hell is paved with good intentions, I know I know, but the IoM does not care for that. Life is already a living hell.

And it could still get worse.

 

Brother Sefiel, if you really wish to throw antiquated philosophical concepts such as the Teapot (which is only really appliable to people making scientifically unfalsifiable claims and then trying to shift the blame away) around, then maybe you should entertain the thought of Occam's Razor or Bury's similar idea that the burden of proof should not reside upon the rejecter (History of Freedom of Thought). These concepts have been used and are intended for discussion of scientific and religious proof and not the merits and moralities of a fictional government, since these disciplines (science, religion and literary studies) operate by different standards and rules.


Edited by The Observer, 19 February 2017 - 01:42 AM.

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#128
Volt

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Just because we have In-Universe justification for the Imperium's actions doesn't stop them from meeting literally all the criteria of a facist regime. (It also doesn't help that again, 40k is built of satire for said facism) And the only reason the Imperium doesn't take more direct control is In-Universe its literally impossible thanks to how frigging huge the Universe is. 

 

I bet if you go find someone who's an actual fascist, they'd have plenty of justification for why every terrible thing they might want to do is totally justified because the "enemy" is just that bad, and their the only ones who do anything about it. I'm iffy on board rules on bringing irl examples, but having reasons, even fairly decent ones all things considered, doesn't stop them from being fascist. There isn't one single thing that makes a regime fascist really, there's a checklist and such.

 

And seriously guys, you don't see how a regime that literally burns people with messed up genetics at the stake, or best case scenario treats them as effectively a slave undercast, and executes non-human species on sight for the crime of being "non-human" doesn't qualify as fantastic racism? Come on, your better than that. I don't know how you could make it more obvious.

 

Though I will give you that they aren't sexist at all.

 

It is impossible for the Imperium to be fascist because they are not authoritarian by definition. The Imperium is a feudal state, and bares heavy similarity to the Holy Roman Empire. There is no dictator in the Imperium- the highest authority is a council, the High Lords of Terra, who all wield equal power. Power is handed out in a feudal manner in the Imperium, with Planetary Governors being free to rule however they want (and it may not always bee a Governor, the planet could install a democracy), and the Imperium leaves them to govern freely. The Imperium only jumps in when either its tithes haven't been paid or somebody broke their very loose laws. But even the branches of government themselves are for all intents and purposes their own autonomous entities only loosely controlled by the Imperium and frequently run around without any oversight, rule their own land, and sometimes even follow a separate book of law. The actual political classification of the Imperium of Man would be similar to the HRE as a Confederation of States loosely tied together, with there only being one branch being able to legally oversee anything, and that ability only working if they currently have the political clout in the moment to do so.

 

 

Fascist States meanwhile are HEAVILY centralized with direct control over everything by the Dictator. There isn't anything like that in the Imperium, it's as decentralized as you can get.

 

Also for those not familiar with the Holy Roman Empire, not only was it basically copy-pasted into Warhammer Fantasy (and the Imperium in 40k is just a facelift of the WHF Empire of Man), the Holy Roman Empire later instituted what was basically Space Marines. The Imperial Knights were an order of direct vassals under the Emperor who had no overlords, and thus he could always count upon their support if threatened, giving him a permanent army to draw upon. In exchange for their oaths of direct fealty, the Imperial Knights were given their own lands to administrate.

 

 

If you don't consider summary execution of dissidents to be a fascist trait, I don't know what to tell you.

The whole problem with this discussion is your flexible interpretation of conditions, in dispute of absolute qualifications under the list of characteristics.

Your refusal to accept them doesn't change the evidence, but if you cannot be convinced, there's no point in continuing.  Better that we don't go round and round with it.

 

Call that a "victory" if it helps, feel free to choose your own meaning for terms if it suits you.  That's the beauty of this, we're all free to see it through our own filters, be they literal or interpretive.  That's a characteristic of art. msn-wink.gif

Dude you're doing the political version of saying everything is a fish because they have vertebrae. There are tons of political alignments that execute dissidents on the spot, including Communism, Fascism's direct opposite.


Edited by Volt, 19 February 2017 - 01:53 AM.

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#129
Brother Chaplain Kage

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Hey kids, guess where this thread has gone and what time it is now? Yeah, that's right. It's melta time.

 

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Edited by Brother Chaplain Kage, 19 February 2017 - 02:33 AM.

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