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Astartes at Cadia


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#1
Asamodai

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Just a quick question for anyone who picked up the Fall of Cadia book.

I remember when the rumours on it were going around still there was a grainy image of the chapters fighting in the area.

It was hard to make out, so I was wondering if anyone could let me know who the book specifically mentions.

gallery_70393_10089_17958.pngETL_2015_Banner_01_Oath_of_Moment.jpg

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My Raven Guard 3rd Company Log


#2
Isinfier

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Everyone mentioned in the original Eye of Terror codex as well, iirc. They mentioned on the stream that it was still canon, just woefully outdated. Cross-reference that with any recent content (so Warzone Fenris, Traitor Legion's, etc) and you should be in the clear.

"If your enemy has painted his army to resemble the Salamanders, Iron Hands or Raven Guard, you may remove 2/3rds of his army from the field and wash it in horse urine. Then burn it."


#3
Tyberos the Red Wake

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In the little diagrams (that are now dopey looking MS Paint instead of hand-drawn/cool looking like FW) showing the template for every force present, there are tons and tons of chapters there.

 

But in the text of the book, the only ones mentioned constantly are the Black Templars who marched outside of the gates and stubbornly refused to retreat until they realized they were being bypassed, the Space Wolves who hunted the wastes outside the gate and chained up brothers turning Wulfen, and the Dark Angels, whose ship crashed and became a stranded island of gunfire. Other chapters helped to hold the stronghold itself, and were mentioned in passing. Imperial Fists were doing their own thing on Phalanx trying to hold off Iron Warriors boarding parties but eventually rendezvous to Cadia.

 

Some 30k era Ultramarines and a Custodes also make a cameo when Trazyn releases them to fight Abaddon but they are all wiped out.

 

So major forces: DA, BT, SW

 

Minor forces: A lot of chapters

 

I took a look at the diagram and it shows some 2nd Company jump pack Ultramarines, Salamanders, Raven Guard, Clan Raukaan, Exorcists, Howling Griffins (who I vaguely remember being mentioned) and many other famous chapters.


Edited by Tyberos the Red Wake, 22 February 2017 - 10:21 PM.

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"Grey-clad, they came from the outer night to aid the Imperium, and their jagged maw did swallow the stars, and their black gaze did mirror the void of oblivion."

- The Canticle of Cassandria Lev - Vol.CVI [Circa M37]


#4
Lay

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@Isinfier

Man, this is great news. Do you know what stream it was and if it was recorded somewhere?



#5
Canadian_F_H

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I really need to corner a copy of the original 13th black crusade codex from... 3rd (or was it 4th edition?)

Edited by Canadian_F_H, 23 February 2017 - 02:51 AM.


#6
Vodunius

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3rd edition.

Lexicanum has a copy of the list of forces deployed, note that this was the forces deployed to the entire Cadian sector - many were deployed to other systems or subsectors rather than Cadia itself. 

http://wh40k.lexican...Imperial_Forces


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i hate to break it to you chaps, but according to the English Language a Chevron is a V shape, if your 'Chevrons' are not V shaped then they are just hazard stripes NOT Chevrons

Horus killed Sanguinius so hard that his entire chapter feels it forever..

#7
Red_Shift

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I really need to corner a copy of the original 13th black crusade codex from... 3rd (or was it 4th edition?)


Is there a specific bit of info you are looking for? It's sat in my sideboard

#8
Canadian_F_H

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I really need to corner a copy of the original 13th black crusade codex from... 3rd (or was it 4th edition?)

Is there a specific bit of info you are looking for? It's sat in my sideboard

Not really anything specific... I want the physical codex. it'll go well with my 3rd edition books.

#9
Captain_Krash

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So can it be assumed all the "other" chapter forces that were on Cadia in the "Fall of Cadia book" were destroyed?

 

Krash


Ad Victoriam


#10
Isinfier

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@Isinfier

Man, this is great news. Do you know what stream it was and if it was recorded somewhere?

 

 

3rd edition.

Lexicanum has a copy of the list of forces deployed, note that this was the forces deployed to the entire Cadian sector - many were deployed to other systems or subsectors rather than Cadia itself. 

http://wh40k.lexican...Imperial_Forces

 

What Vodunius said, basically. I can't remember the exact stream.

 

I think it's safe to assume that the other forces present on the planet were either destroyed, managed to evacuate independently or had already redeployed elsewhere in the sector.


"If your enemy has painted his army to resemble the Salamanders, Iron Hands or Raven Guard, you may remove 2/3rds of his army from the field and wash it in horse urine. Then burn it."


#11
Spyros

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3rd edition.

Lexicanum has a copy of the list of forces deployed, note that this was the forces deployed to the entire Cadian sector - many were deployed to other systems or subsectors rather than Cadia itself. 

http://wh40k.lexican...Imperial_Forces

 

It's always difficult to comprehend how the Chaos forces overwhelmed all these forces... and it's canon, so I wonder what will GW present next as a suitable defense.


"The Chapter's leaders point to their honour roll, which is second to none in victories won in the name of the Emperor." , Imperial Armour Vol.2, Baal Predator entry

"Whatever the Blood Angels' flaws, nowhere in the Imperium can truer servants of the Emperor be found." , Blood Angels Codex 5th ed.

"Although feared and mistrusted by those they protect, the Blood Angels continue to smash the Imperium's foes, compiling a battle history second to none." ,

Dark Millennium 7th ed.


#12
Lord Marshal

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3rd edition.

Lexicanum has a copy of the list of forces deployed, note that this was the forces deployed to the entire Cadian sector - many were deployed to other systems or subsectors rather than Cadia itself. 

http://wh40k.lexican...Imperial_Forces

 

It's always difficult to comprehend how the Chaos forces overwhelmed all these forces... and it's canon, so I wonder what will GW present next as a suitable defense.

 

 

Chaos is throwing all of the eggs it has in one basket at breaking the Cadian Gate, whilst the Imperium's forces are still spread out across the entire galaxy.

 

Whilst there's a lot of chapters present, they only number around a thousand each - at most - and even then, they're only sending companies worth of that number. Opposing them is the entirety of the Black Legion and probably the vast majority of the Traitor Legions. Throw into that millions of Traitor Guard/Cultists/Mutants and on top of that, a nigh-infinite amount of daemons being spawned and more arriving with every bit of ground taken. 


Edited by Arbitration, 23 February 2017 - 03:06 PM.


#13
Canadian_F_H

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Pretty sure there was a mass evacuation from the system... the reason the templars, Cawl etc got trapped and had to evacuate thru the warp gate was because they were the last ship in the convoy.

#14
Spyros

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Chaos is throwing all of the eggs it has in one basket at breaking the Cadian Gate, whilst the Imperium's forces are still spread out across the entire galaxy.

 

Whilst there's a lot of chapters present, they only number around a thousand each - at most - and even then, they're only sending companies worth of that number. Opposing them is the entirety of the Black Legion and probably the vast majority of the Traitor Legions. Throw into that millions of Traitor Guard/Cultists/Mutants and on top of that, a nigh-infinite amount of daemons being spawned and more arriving with every bit of ground taken. 

 

 

I know all that.

It's just that when you realize that you are counting roughly 800 Imperial Guard regiments...

And at least 196 Space Marine companies wtih 21 Battle Barges & 150 Strike Cruisers...

Also 3,5 Titan Legions (some psi-titans also appeared) and an irrelevant number of Knight Households and Skitarii regiments...

And finally at least 24 Battleships with 34 Cruiser squadrons...

 

I 'm only counting the biggest of military assets here. We know GW never get the scale right, but this...


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"The Chapter's leaders point to their honour roll, which is second to none in victories won in the name of the Emperor." , Imperial Armour Vol.2, Baal Predator entry

"Whatever the Blood Angels' flaws, nowhere in the Imperium can truer servants of the Emperor be found." , Blood Angels Codex 5th ed.

"Although feared and mistrusted by those they protect, the Blood Angels continue to smash the Imperium's foes, compiling a battle history second to none." ,

Dark Millennium 7th ed.


#15
Canadian_F_H

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196 companies is 19,600 marines... vs the black legion alone having more than 100,000 marines. Plus contributions of the other 8 traitor legion and renegades... idk. Seams like cadia should be steamrolled.
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#16
Spyros

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Yes, but here's another good point, we don't really know how big the traitor legions are, GW wont tell us.

I doubt they are in full legion strength after the Heresy, be it limited resources and infighting. If they were full strength the Imperium wouldn't stand a chance. The most recent example would be Magnus' attack on Fenris, imagine him attacking with a full legion... nope, didn't happen.

Of course the Chaos gods and their daemons make a huge difference for their lack of numbers. 

All in all, I 'm excited to see what happens next.


"The Chapter's leaders point to their honour roll, which is second to none in victories won in the name of the Emperor." , Imperial Armour Vol.2, Baal Predator entry

"Whatever the Blood Angels' flaws, nowhere in the Imperium can truer servants of the Emperor be found." , Blood Angels Codex 5th ed.

"Although feared and mistrusted by those they protect, the Blood Angels continue to smash the Imperium's foes, compiling a battle history second to none." ,

Dark Millennium 7th ed.


#17
Lay

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The most recent example would be Magnus' attack on Fenris, imagine him attacking with a full legion... nope, didn't happen.

 

That's probably due to the more character driven fluff of recent editions. Fall of Cadia felt similarly small scale.

The Eye of Terror fluff from 3rd edition had both sides evenly matched, not just on Cadia but on all other late game warzones. Another example would be the "Dominion of Fire" from 4th edition in which Angron mobilizes 50.000 berzerkers, wreaking havoc across imperial space for two centuries.


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#18
Canadian_F_H

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Last I heard by fluff mongers here was that the black legion had at minimum 100,000 astartes at the start of the 13th black crusade...

Also that example with the 1ksons is poor since they were a tiny legion by the time the rubric was cast on the survivors...
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#19
Red_Shift

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Last I heard by fluff mongers here was that the black legion had at minimum 100,000 astartes at the start of the 13th black crusade...
Also that example with the 1ksons is poor since they were a tiny legion by the time the rubric was cast on the survivors...


Just out of interest does anyone have a source for this 100k figure or is it a guestimate?

#20
Canadian_F_H

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Last I heard by fluff mongers here was that the black legion had at minimum 100,000 astartes at the start of the 13th black crusade...
Also that example with the 1ksons is poor since they were a tiny legion by the time the rubric was cast on the survivors...

Just out of interest does anyone have a source for this 100k figure or is it a guestimate?

I don't personaly. I mean... I have almost all the 7th ed chaos codexes but I haven't gotten around to reading them all yet so the answer might be in one...

#21
Spyros

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Last I heard by fluff mongers here was that the black legion had at minimum 100,000 astartes at the start of the 13th black crusade...
Also that example with the 1ksons is poor since they were a tiny legion by the time the rubric was cast on the survivors...


Just out of interest does anyone have a source for this 100k figure or is it a guestimate?

 

If you google "space marine legion size" you 'll find plenty of answers.

 

 

 

The most recent example would be Magnus' attack on Fenris, imagine him attacking with a full legion... nope, didn't happen.

 

That's probably due to the more character driven fluff of recent editions. Fall of Cadia felt similarly small scale.

The Eye of Terror fluff from 3rd edition had both sides evenly matched, not just on Cadia but on all other late game warzones. Another example would be the "Dominion of Fire" from 4th edition in which Angron mobilizes 50.000 berzerkers, wreaking havoc across imperial space for two centuries.

 

Both sides evenly matched?

If GW was consistent in its own fluff then Cadia would be under siege as chaos forces had entrenched themselves on the planet BUT the Imperium controlled space. However at the "Fall of Cadia" the 50-50 on the ground was made into 90-10 in favor of chaos and control of space was turned into control of a few damaged ships as the chaos fleet was returning miraculously unscratched to finish them of...


"The Chapter's leaders point to their honour roll, which is second to none in victories won in the name of the Emperor." , Imperial Armour Vol.2, Baal Predator entry

"Whatever the Blood Angels' flaws, nowhere in the Imperium can truer servants of the Emperor be found." , Blood Angels Codex 5th ed.

"Although feared and mistrusted by those they protect, the Blood Angels continue to smash the Imperium's foes, compiling a battle history second to none." ,

Dark Millennium 7th ed.


#22
Lay

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When I mean "evenly matched" I mean that both sides were able to throw seemingly endless numbers of troops at each other. After all, the backdrop of the original Black Crusade was a player driven campaign. Both sides had to be portrayed as being capable of winning the war. Also, the bulk of the Chaos forces at the time were the Lost of the Damned rather than Chaos Space Marines, which isn't much of a surprise since they were one of the 4 new armies that were introduced for the campaign.
 
The whole fluff about imperials controlling space has been vastly inflated and misrepresented over the years. It's not what determined the outcome of the campaign. In fact it was kind of detrimental to the Imperial forces. (don't ask - it has something to do with the campaign's game mechanics and even some 4th wall breaking fluff)



#23
Felix Antipodes

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The remaining Astartes on Cadia (other than SW, BT, DA & IF) were bundled into a joint force. The remains of this force went off with a SW great company in an attempt to infiltrate Abaddon's flagship (or the planet killer, I forget). They are all killed by the end of GS1.

I don't recall any being mentioned by name, but assume it contained elements from all the Chapters shown in the image section. No Chapter is described as being made extinct.

#24
Vesper

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Last I heard by fluff mongers here was that the black legion had at minimum 100,000 astartes at the start of the 13th black crusade...
Also that example with the 1ksons is poor since they were a tiny legion by the time the rubric was cast on the survivors...


Just out of interest does anyone have a source for this 100k figure or is it a guestimate?

 

 

Word Bearer's omnibus.

 

A character (Marduk) states the Black Legion has ten times more astartes than the Word Bearers Legion, so around 100k marines.

 

Keep in mind it was prior the retcon of the Legion sizes, making them jump, overall, from 10k to 100k. So by that logic, the Black Legion would be around 1 000 000 marines strong. That's not really believable, but what remains is the huge scale of the Black Legion.

 

What is interesting is that, Dark Creed already had 9000 Word Bearers featured (5 hosts, not the entire Legion) while stating the Black Legion was ten times larger than the WB Legion by 40k.

 

So yeah, around 100 000 marines as an extremely low estimate can be considered relatively accurate.

 

You could find more discussions on that matter around the interwebs like, for instance, here or there.


Edited by Vesper, 25 February 2017 - 03:16 PM.

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#25
Canadian_F_H

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Regardless... the black legion out numbers all loyalist astartes deployed to cadia by st least 5x.




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