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Some basic rule adjustments


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#1
Feral_80

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I should probably remark that I (and most of the people I play with) hate the current state of the game: supplements and formations spam has made the game simply unplayable from my point of view. Not only for the sheer cheesy options that one can devise, but also for the number of rules and combos that one is supposed to remember. Anoter thing that I really cannot stand is the fact that - especially as an Imperial player - one can find the same unit, with the same name but (slightly) different rules, from more than one book. And all are legit. E.g. assassins, inquisitors, priests, imperial psykers, etc.

 

This all stated, I thought of the major problems of the game at the moment. From my point of view, these can be summed up in two different layers of complexity.

 

The first, 'basic' layer includes several ways to abuse some of the well-known overpowered options in the base rulebook (invisibility, jink, rerolls, etc) in order to field 'death stars'; the excessive power of Monstrous Creatures, which 90% of the times are undercosted; the fact that 'normal' vehicles tend to suck, especially compared to MCs above; the useless and unbalancing existence of some rules (D weapons). I believe these can be fixed with relatively minor efforts, and this topic is dedicated to some ideas on which I would like to receive feedback.

 

The second, 'deep' layer deals with things that cannot be fixed unless you rewrite the game completely, something that I am not willing to do for several reasons. Still, I am sure that 40k would greatly benefit from fixing these aspects substantially. These include, e.g.: the I-go-you-go system, which should be replaced by alternating activation. The stupid cover (and, almost as stupid, the AP) system, which should be replaced. The very limited flexibility of the d6 system: it would be time to switch to a more modern system, e.g. based on d10: d6 is very 1980s and I still like it, but it has many problems - I reckon, however, that changing the dice would probably feel like denaturalising 40k, and I understand that GW might have concerns about this. Finally, the tendency of GW to encourage the proliferation of supplements and formations that do not replace the previous ones. And well, the lack of playtest smile.png but anyway.

 

 

So, let us stick to 'basic' rule changes for now. Let me know what you think, and if you would propose anything else. The are meant to address the basic issues listed above. Fundamental approach: keep it simple:

 

 

1) Jinking: in addition to the normal rules, a unit that has jinked counts as making a disordered charge in the following turn.

 

2) Rerolls: NO save of ANY kind can be rerolled as better than 3+. If you have any kind of 2+ save and are allowed to reroll it for any reason (including any 'reroll 1s' ability), you reroll it as 3+. 

 

3) Monstrous Creatures and blast weapons: if a blast weapons (aimed or scattered) ends on a MC and the central hole of the blast is *entirely* over the MC, then the weapons scores 2 hits on that MC. These must wound and be saved separately. [meant to make large blast explosions realistically more dangerous even for MCs].

 

4) Blast weapons and snap firing: blast weapons can snap fire, but if they do so they always scatter (ignore any 'hit' result) and do not subtract the BS from the scatter distance. Template weapons can snap fire, but if they do so, halve the number of hits they score (rounding up).

 

5) D weapons table: change result 6 as following: 3+d3 wounds/HP. Each to be saved separately. Reroll any succesful save against these hits.

 

Thoughts?


Edited by Feral_80, 24 February 2017 - 12:05 PM.

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#2
Jarkaira

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Have you ever considered playing Horus Heresy? Feel free to check upon Age of Darkness subforum and you might find something which pleases you in terms of game balance and attitude of players.
Resin for the Resin God!

#3
Teetengee

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I really like these. Particularly jink and the mc with blast ruling.


My Chaos WIP Thread (Bigger Pics and Foul Xenos offsite) Hall of Honour, My Storm Reavers (DIY SM Chapter) Story, My Chaos 7.5 Homebrew Codex Thread
In us burns a fire for vengeance that will only be quenched when we stand triumphant over the smoldering ruins of Terra. Our laughter on that day will haunt their survivors till the end of time. We will stride forth victorious through the shattered gates of their fortress, holding high aloft the defiled corpse of their rotting god as our prize.
Wulfkry, on 02 Jul 2013 - 3:38 PM, said: So an inquisitor is receiving SM implants using GK geneseed stolen off the fields of armageddon interesting..
Captain Semper, on 29 May 2015 - 4:10 AM, said: There is crazy and there is Teetengee crazy... ph34r.pngnuke.gif

Warsmith Aznable, on 30 Jan 2016 - 01:16 AM, said: 13. Teetengee wrote "Warp Born" and I won't even go into how disturbing the subject matter was.
The Psycho, on 26 Apr 2016 - 10:50 PM, said: That's either really disturbing or really cute, I haven't quite made up my mind yet.

wWHQjAC.jpgCall_of_Chaos_9_Medal_02.gifETL_2016_Medal_01_Custos_Fidei02.gifsml_gallery_29004_12090_4775.pngETL_Medal_03.giffriday-award.pngx8we_badge_teetengee.pnggallery_29004_10514_2007.jpggallery_29004_10514_234.jpggallery_48988_6285_1348.png


#4
Feral_80

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Have you ever considered playing Horus Heresy? Feel free to check upon Age of Darkness subforum and you might find something which pleases you in terms of game balance and attitude of players.

 

Nope, I have no intention of buying a new army sweat.gif

Should I assume that HH rules and players are more reasonable? The part on the rule especially sounds strange, being something that comes from Forgeworld.


I really like these. Particularly jink and the mc with blast ruling.

 

Thanks! Feel free to contribute.



#5
Trevak Dal

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Some thoughts I have had:

I'd say the reroll thing would never be better than a 4+, they are getting a reroll, they should be happy about that.

Attacks that double out toughness that cause an unsaved wound do two wounds if they have eternal warrior.

Make walkers ignore shaken, stunned and weapon destroyed and they are more able to fight monsters, OR drastically reduce their points cost to like 80 points for a contemptor, 50 points for a helbrute/normal Dred with mm/power fist. Raise the points for Knights, wraith knights, and Stormsurges.

"Our Turn" - Centurion Khârn.

 


#6
Swarmlord Unleashed

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I just want for every 2 wounds lost -> -1 WS and BS. Doesn't completely invalidate my first army, considering our stick is cheap MCs.

Well would you look at the time, it's zombie o'clock!
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#7
Feral_80

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I'm resuscitating this thread just to post a couple more rules that we are toying with at my game club. Just leave a comment if you have some more ideas.

 

  • Independent characters: no more than two can join a unit. Characters (of any type) cannot band together in an all-star unit, unless they exist as such in the codex.

 

  • Two hands, for real: finally rule out that since a model (most of the times) only has 2 hands, he can never combine extra items that are held (like a storm shield) with two-handed weapons, regardless of the item being a weapon or not.

 

  • Flying monstrous creatures that fail a grounding test cannot charge the turn thereafter. Stops the ridiculous rule that actually makes you do a favour to that Bloodthirster by allowing him to crush his head on the ground.

 

  • All walkers and monstrous creatures gain a 'mini-stomp' (find a better name) rule: they can forego all of their attacks to instead deal 1 hit at their basic strength (no AP, no special rules) at Initiative 1 for each enemy model they are in base contact with. Allows e.g. a dreadnought to realistically be able to cause havoc in a unit of gaunts or conscripts that cannot damage it, instead of being bogged down for the rest of the game. Imagine what a 4-meters tall metal/chitinous beast would do in such a situation, instead of gently picking up a couple of guys each turn and killing just these.

 

  • Terrain that is *obviously* inaccessible to some type of units is to be treated as impassable terrain by these. No more visually idiotic scenes of bikes and walkers on the 3rd floor, transports in impossibly narrow spaces, etc. Don't like it? Play more infantry if you want those objectives.

 

  • Models mounted on a bike (all types) can use only 1 one-handed weapon in CC.

 

  • Chariots: randomize shooting hits: 1-4 chariot, 5-6 passenger.

Edited by Feral_80, 21 April 2017 - 03:50 PM.


#8
Teetengee

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I'm resuscitating this thread just to post a couple more rules that we are toying with at my game club. Just leave a comment if you have some more ideas.

 

- Flying monstrous creatures that fail a grounding test cannot charge the turn thereafter. Stops the ridiculous rule that actually makes you do a favour to that Bloodthirster by allowing him to crush his head on the ground.

 

- -snip- 

So, under what circumstances does a bloodthirster that starts flying get to charge without getting shot to shreds first? It is already hard enough landing them somewhere safe to actually get them to do something. Removing charge after grounding just means that the opponent gets more time to shoot the thing, and has no difficult decisions to make about risking grounding tests.


My Chaos WIP Thread (Bigger Pics and Foul Xenos offsite) Hall of Honour, My Storm Reavers (DIY SM Chapter) Story, My Chaos 7.5 Homebrew Codex Thread
In us burns a fire for vengeance that will only be quenched when we stand triumphant over the smoldering ruins of Terra. Our laughter on that day will haunt their survivors till the end of time. We will stride forth victorious through the shattered gates of their fortress, holding high aloft the defiled corpse of their rotting god as our prize.
Wulfkry, on 02 Jul 2013 - 3:38 PM, said: So an inquisitor is receiving SM implants using GK geneseed stolen off the fields of armageddon interesting..
Captain Semper, on 29 May 2015 - 4:10 AM, said: There is crazy and there is Teetengee crazy... ph34r.pngnuke.gif

Warsmith Aznable, on 30 Jan 2016 - 01:16 AM, said: 13. Teetengee wrote "Warp Born" and I won't even go into how disturbing the subject matter was.
The Psycho, on 26 Apr 2016 - 10:50 PM, said: That's either really disturbing or really cute, I haven't quite made up my mind yet.

wWHQjAC.jpgCall_of_Chaos_9_Medal_02.gifETL_2016_Medal_01_Custos_Fidei02.gifsml_gallery_29004_12090_4775.pngETL_Medal_03.giffriday-award.pngx8we_badge_teetengee.pnggallery_29004_10514_2007.jpggallery_29004_10514_234.jpggallery_48988_6285_1348.png


#9
Feral_80

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It is only fair that an underpriced MC gets a chance to be seriously shot before charging and destroying anything that is not at least as much overpowered.

 

And by the way, WHY in hell would you shoot a Bloodthirster who is flying high?! He has no shooting. He can't hurt you there. I will happily ignore him and let him fly around the whole game, if that is what he likes. Your example is irrelevant.


Edited by Feral_80, 20 April 2017 - 06:13 PM.


#10
Teetengee

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It is only fair that an underpriced MC gets a chance to be seriously shot before charging and destroying anything that is not at least as much overpowered.

 

And by the way, WHY in hell would you shoot a Bloodthirster who is flying high?! He has no shooting. He can't hurt you there. I will happily ignore him and let him fly around the whole game, if that is what he likes. Your example is irrelevant.

Bloodthirsters are vastly overpriced these days. I am not sure when you last played against them, but they just don't hold up. Too vulnerable, to easy to take down. Sure they can kill what they hit, but they almost never get to combat soon enough to matter anymore. 3+/5++ just isn't enough to keep them alive.


My Chaos WIP Thread (Bigger Pics and Foul Xenos offsite) Hall of Honour, My Storm Reavers (DIY SM Chapter) Story, My Chaos 7.5 Homebrew Codex Thread
In us burns a fire for vengeance that will only be quenched when we stand triumphant over the smoldering ruins of Terra. Our laughter on that day will haunt their survivors till the end of time. We will stride forth victorious through the shattered gates of their fortress, holding high aloft the defiled corpse of their rotting god as our prize.
Wulfkry, on 02 Jul 2013 - 3:38 PM, said: So an inquisitor is receiving SM implants using GK geneseed stolen off the fields of armageddon interesting..
Captain Semper, on 29 May 2015 - 4:10 AM, said: There is crazy and there is Teetengee crazy... ph34r.pngnuke.gif

Warsmith Aznable, on 30 Jan 2016 - 01:16 AM, said: 13. Teetengee wrote "Warp Born" and I won't even go into how disturbing the subject matter was.
The Psycho, on 26 Apr 2016 - 10:50 PM, said: That's either really disturbing or really cute, I haven't quite made up my mind yet.

wWHQjAC.jpgCall_of_Chaos_9_Medal_02.gifETL_2016_Medal_01_Custos_Fidei02.gifsml_gallery_29004_12090_4775.pngETL_Medal_03.giffriday-award.pngx8we_badge_teetengee.pnggallery_29004_10514_2007.jpggallery_29004_10514_234.jpggallery_48988_6285_1348.png


#11
Feral_80

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I usually play Imperial Guard. I can kill a Bloodthirster in a turn, but to do that I need to fire my whole army to it (say 1500 pts vs 250-300 pts, still a ridiculously effective distraction model), which means that turn 2 I get charged by the whole rest of the army. Even if the Bloodthirster is one of the 'weaker' MC, it is still a MC, which are by definition way underpriced and way too powerful compared to their closest equivalent, i.e. vehicles.

 

If you argue that there are other MCs that are much more cost-effective and broken than a Bloodthirster (and/or that Imperial Guard is weak compared to other shinier armies), I will certainly agree. But then again, that is not a good excuse to not try to limit one of the most broken aspects of the game. We gave MCs other limitations, but also a small bonus in the way of mini-stomps. These adjustments are not perfect, but still I find them much more balanced than the standard rules.


Edited by Feral_80, 22 April 2017 - 09:54 AM.


#12
Teetengee

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I usually play Imperial Guard. I can kill a Bloodthirster in a turn, but to do that I need to fire my whole army to it (say 1500 pts vs 250-300 pts, still a ridiculously effective distraction model), which means that turn 2 I get charged by the whole rest of the army. Even if the Bloodthirster is one of the 'weaker' MC, it is still a MC, which are by definition way underpriced and way too powerful compared to their closest equivalent, i.e. vehicles.

 

If you argue that there are other MCs that are much more cost-effective and broken than a Bloodthirster (and/or that Imperial Guard is weak compared to other shinier armies), I will certainly agree. But then again, that is not a good excuse to not try to limit one of the most broken aspects of the game. We gave MCs other limitations, but also a small bonus in the way of mini-stomps. These adjustments are not perfect, but still I find them much more balanced than the standard rules.

The thing is though that the grounding nerf only hurts flying close combat monstrous creatures, which across the board are understrength. You are absolutely correct that Imperial Guard are currently weaker and that MC in general are too strong though, its just that nerfing the only mc that are struggling isn't going to help.


My Chaos WIP Thread (Bigger Pics and Foul Xenos offsite) Hall of Honour, My Storm Reavers (DIY SM Chapter) Story, My Chaos 7.5 Homebrew Codex Thread
In us burns a fire for vengeance that will only be quenched when we stand triumphant over the smoldering ruins of Terra. Our laughter on that day will haunt their survivors till the end of time. We will stride forth victorious through the shattered gates of their fortress, holding high aloft the defiled corpse of their rotting god as our prize.
Wulfkry, on 02 Jul 2013 - 3:38 PM, said: So an inquisitor is receiving SM implants using GK geneseed stolen off the fields of armageddon interesting..
Captain Semper, on 29 May 2015 - 4:10 AM, said: There is crazy and there is Teetengee crazy... ph34r.pngnuke.gif

Warsmith Aznable, on 30 Jan 2016 - 01:16 AM, said: 13. Teetengee wrote "Warp Born" and I won't even go into how disturbing the subject matter was.
The Psycho, on 26 Apr 2016 - 10:50 PM, said: That's either really disturbing or really cute, I haven't quite made up my mind yet.

wWHQjAC.jpgCall_of_Chaos_9_Medal_02.gifETL_2016_Medal_01_Custos_Fidei02.gifsml_gallery_29004_12090_4775.pngETL_Medal_03.giffriday-award.pngx8we_badge_teetengee.pnggallery_29004_10514_2007.jpggallery_29004_10514_234.jpggallery_48988_6285_1348.png





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