ronin_cse Posted February 24, 2017 Share Posted February 24, 2017 Hey all! I just posted this over in the CSM forum Word Bearers topic but after thinking about it I figured it fits in this section a lot better. Just making a couple edits so it makes more sense here ;) I'm reading through The First Heretic again and it brought up a couple questions that I haven't found answer to. 1: Why did the Emperor even make Lorgar the way he is in the first place? Even at the time he was very secular and considered religion to be one of humanities' greatest evils so why design a Primarch that is predisposed to worship? Yeah sure the planet he ended up on obviously contributed but even before Lorgar was found the Word Bearers showed similar signs so it seems to be in their genes. 2: The very question that Lorgar himself asks Magnus: why wait until now to destroy his faith? Why let him crusade so long converting planets to his Word? Even after all the various HH books I am still not sure. Maybe the Emperor foresaw that the Heresy had to happen and knew this would be the catalyst? After reading Master of Mankind that seems less likely to me. IMO Lorgar ended up as one of the ultimate villains of the Heresy and was manipulated far less into his position than Horus, but he's still one of the most tragic figures as well easily ranking up there with Magnus. Magnus at least damned himself, and his legion by extension, long before Prospero burned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranwulf Posted February 24, 2017 Share Posted February 24, 2017 My take is that Lorgar was not created as a "religious" primarch, but rather a "believer". Someone that believes wholeheartly in the Imperial Truth, in the Imperial Beliefs. Someone that could be a Herald for the Emperor. Thing is, Lorgar not only was raised as priest, but also was easily influenced by others and that was his weakness, which turned him into zealot. His father and his world shaped him into a preacher. Personally, the reason he was punished this way - because at the end of the day, Lorgar beliefs was one of the MANY things the Emperor had to deal with. We seen catherics at Calth (Oll Persson), as much the Emperor despised religious belief he was not stupid enough to think he could purge it completely. I think the Emperor let it slide, because as long Lorgar conquered new planets, did his job as a general and a herald of the Imperium Truth, then it would be acceptable losses. Think about it. Why didn't the Emperor stop Curze and Angron murderous rampages? Maybe because it suited him? If the "belief" of the Emperor united mankind, then maybe this could be accepted if reined in. Maybe because he has more things to deal with than his generals indiosicracies. Lorgar failure wasn't his personal beliefs of the Emperor as a god, but I think the fact that he failed as a general, he didn't bring to heel enough planets as he should have. "The greatest sin is failure". Another point - I don't know how long did it take for the Emperor to learn of it. He is not omniscient, he said so in Master of Mankind. He had an entire galaxy to command and take care off, it is not out of place to think that he only learned about it later and it took time to - gather the Ultramarines, Malcador and overseer himself this. Ran Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shandwen Posted February 24, 2017 Share Posted February 24, 2017 In my view Lorgar is the ultimate yes man. He would obstinately folow whatever he was told to do without a second thought (which is mimiced in his legion which does not appear to have very many loyal sons...). The fact that he turned away from the Emperor has mainly to with his pride: and as it seems the big E left flaws in every primarch on purpose it was probably to give a future excuse to cull him. (I say the on purpose as every single group was a tool for the big Es end game and every one had it "expiration date". Like navigators would be thrown out after the webway project would be completed and the thunder warriors were discarded after the marines were built. It is likely that only two or three legions were meant to exist after the psycic re-awakening that the Emperor had planned (and the other were to be erased). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jagus Kumkani Posted February 25, 2017 Share Posted February 25, 2017 Hey all! I just posted this over in the CSM forum Word Bearers topic but after thinking about it I figured it fits in this section a lot better. Just making a couple edits so it makes more sense here I'm reading through The First Heretic again and it brought up a couple questions that I haven't found answer to. 1: Why did the Emperor even make Lorgar the way he is in the first place? Even at the time he was very secular and considered religion to be one of humanities' greatest evils so why design a Primarch that is predisposed to worship? Yeah sure the planet he ended up on obviously contributed but even before Lorgar was found the Word Bearers showed similar signs so it seems to be in their genes. 2: The very question that Lorgar himself asks Magnus: why wait until now to destroy his faith? Why let him crusade so long converting planets to his Word? Even after all the various HH books I am still not sure. Maybe the Emperor foresaw that the Heresy had to happen and knew this would be the catalyst? After reading Master of Mankind that seems less likely to me. IMO Lorgar ended up as one of the ultimate villains of the Heresy and was manipulated far less into his position than Horus, but he's still one of the most tragic figures as well easily ranking up there with Magnus. Magnus at least damned himself, and his legion by extension, long before Prospero burned. 1. I think the Emperor made Lorgar and the Word Bearers to spread the Imperial Truth as fast and effectively as possible. Lorgar and the Word Bearers conquered a lot more worlds than the other legions during the crusade, and the XVIII Legion being the size it was allowed the spreading of the Imperial Truth. Like the other guys said, he was easily manipulated and followed anyone. It wasn't the Emperors intent to have Lorgar spreading his own version of the Imperial Truth. 2. Once the Emperor found out what Lorgar had done, he had to punish him in a manner that would make Lorgar and anyone who believed him to be divine, to never do it again. I believe the Emperor knew just how dangerous that ideology was, and everything he had worked toward would fall apart if he allowed it to continue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted February 25, 2017 Share Posted February 25, 2017 Excellent and provocative question... I like the other poster's thought: Lorgar was originally designed to have absolute faith in the Emperor's plan, not in a religion idolising the Emperor as a god. His zeal was intended, the direction of his zeal was not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluntblade Posted February 25, 2017 Share Posted February 25, 2017 I'm still unconvinced about the Space Marines being intended for wholesale purging, much less the Emperor intentionally leaving flaws to give Himself an excuse. We don't know for certain what was meant for the Navigators, only what the Khan and Paternova assumed. Acheliux, we can infer, believed something very different unless he was happy to see all his kind wiped out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Volt Posted February 25, 2017 Share Posted February 25, 2017 Children typically have most of their personality being defined by their raising, not so much the genetic traits they inherit. Lorgar was likely far more influenced by the humans he grew up around than anything the Emperor did. After all, somebody raised in a culture of religious fanatics is either going to end up a fanatic themselves, or have a snap rejection of everything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluntblade Posted February 25, 2017 Share Posted February 25, 2017 Plus, if we actually believe Ingethel, Lorgar was kept in the Warp and moulded by the Pantheon. She herself flags up - and Argel Talk keeps wondering about - the Word Bearers' proclivity for excessive killing, which shocked all their saner cousins at one time or another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mellow Posted February 25, 2017 Share Posted February 25, 2017 I'm not convinced The Emperor planned or wanted the HH to happen. I'm also not convinced He wanted to get rid of the Legions either. There are too many Xeno species to leave Humanity unprotected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrDarth151 Posted February 25, 2017 Share Posted February 25, 2017 Hey all! I just posted this over in the CSM forum Word Bearers topic but after thinking about it I figured it fits in this section a lot better. Just making a couple edits so it makes more sense here I'm reading through The First Heretic again and it brought up a couple questions that I haven't found answer to. 1: Why did the Emperor even make Lorgar the way he is in the first place? Even at the time he was very secular and considered religion to be one of humanities' greatest evils so why design a Primarch that is predisposed to worship? Yeah sure the planet he ended up on obviously contributed but even before Lorgar was found the Word Bearers showed similar signs so it seems to be in their genes. 2: The very question that Lorgar himself asks Magnus: why wait until now to destroy his faith? Why let him crusade so long converting planets to his Word? Even after all the various HH books I am still not sure. Maybe the Emperor foresaw that the Heresy had to happen and knew this would be the catalyst? After reading Master of Mankind that seems less likely to me. IMO Lorgar ended up as one of the ultimate villains of the Heresy and was manipulated far less into his position than Horus, but he's still one of the most tragic figures as well easily ranking up there with Magnus. Magnus at least damned himself, and his legion by extension, long before Prospero burned. 1. Lorgar and his legion were predisposed to fanatical belief, not worship. The idea of worshipping gods was broght to the legion by Lorgar, Imperial Heralds were fanatical in their devotion to the Imperial Truth. It is specifically mentioned, in Aurelian, I believe, that Chaos Gods did something to Lorgar while he was in the Warp, and that's why he arrived at Colchis later than his brother Primarchs did on their homeworlds. Lorgar's need for divinity was engineered, but not by the Emperor, but his opposition. 2. The second is solely ADB's description of the situation. The figure of one hundred years is not collaborated by any other source, to my knowledge. It definetely wasn't there in Collected Visions. Indeed, FW book two of HH series is implicitly against it, as it explicitly mentions that Lorgar hid his beliefs in early decades of being returned to the legion, and that it took decades for Imperial Heralds to be transformed into Word Bearers. And even then, the excess in their faith was gradual, not sudden. It took time for the Emperor to notice, and then he investigated, and when his investigation yielded results, he descended upon Word Bearers like a ton of bricks. To be honest, while I consider The First Heretic to be a decent book, the depiction of the Emperor and Custodes was always the weakest point of it for me. Honestly. The depiction of Lorgar's chastisement creates a picture of the Emperor being very clearly in the wrong, because the more unsavoury aspects of Word Bearers activities (like the fact that conversion to the Lectitio Divinitatus wasn't peaceful, and involved whole massacres of unbelievers) are omitted, and for all intents and purpoeses, Lorgar worlds are depicted positively. It really has the undertones of "How dare you create paradises, Lorgar!" going for it, and it reduced Emperor's legitimacy in the matter, especially when combined with the ludicrous hundred years timeline that just serves to make the Emperor look further incompetent. Combine that with the fact that nobody manages to convincingly challenge Lorgar on the fact that he has been wronged, and it creates a very one sided portrait of the situation. And then twenty Custodes are deceived and stringed along for fifty years. Sigh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_son_of_Dorn Posted February 25, 2017 Share Posted February 25, 2017 Lorgar like his brothers was a demi God. But had the soul of a man. If anything he should never of been in command of a legion. Rather each of his companies split up and sent to support the greater crusade. Peace through prosperity. Can you immagine how strong and influencinAl he would of been if the emperor had found him first? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluntblade Posted February 25, 2017 Share Posted February 25, 2017 Lorgar's soul was absolutely that of a Primarch. By his own admission though, he never wanted to be a warrior. I like how his mace, designed by Ferrus, doesn't fit him at all while every other Primarch's weapon is perfect for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevak Dal Posted February 25, 2017 Share Posted February 25, 2017 Well a lot of Lorgar's problems are with how his adoptive father raised him. Had all the primarchs been raised and trained by the Emperor, it's unlikely the Galactic Civil war would have happened (at least the way it did). Programming can only go so far, and Kor Phaeron had a lot more sway over Lorgar than the Emperor did (making the entire legion Kneel not withstanding, though that was awesome). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted February 26, 2017 Share Posted February 26, 2017 FW Massacre touches upon this subject The WB were originally the Imperial Heralds or the "Iconoclasts". The were intended to be fanatical, zealous atheists/god-denialists The polar opposite of religious fanatics Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Captain Kezef Posted February 27, 2017 Share Posted February 27, 2017 FW Massacre touches upon this subject The WB were originally the Imperial Heralds or the "Iconoclasts". The were intended to be fanatical, zealous atheists/god-denialists The polar opposite of religious fanatics One of the most useful things about a zealot is he is highly unlikely to be swayed or convinced by others. The WB would of been very useful against enemies that where good at swaying others to thier point of view. Even blind faith has it's uses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walter Payton Posted February 27, 2017 Share Posted February 27, 2017 Question: what's the spoiler policy? It's a long time since I've posted here and I'm rusty. For warning: SPOILERS FOR THE FIRST HERETIC AND AURELIAN BELOW. Plus, if we actually believe Ingethel, Lorgar was kept in the Warp and moulded by the Pantheon. She herself flags up - and Argel Talk keeps wondering about - the Word Bearers' proclivity for excessive killing, which shocked all their saner cousins at one time or another. The operative clause in that paragraph is "if we actually believe Ingethel". Personally, I don't. It's not entirely clear how Chaos works between the Studio and BL fluff, but something that seems fairly consistent in what I've read of Aaron Dembski-Bowden's work is that you have to choose to damn yourself. You have to actually say "I reject the Emperor, I want to work for the Dark Gods". Of course, they can lie to you or torture you to get you to say "uncle" - this is the grim darkness of the far future, after all - but agents must make conscious choices to work for them. At any point before he sailed into the Eye, Lorgar could have said "no". He could have chosen to accept the Emperor's rebuke at Monarchia. He could have chosen to ignore Erebus and Kor Phaeron pouring sweet nothings into his ears. He could have chosen to exterminate the Cadians when they murdered Vedantha. He could have asked the Emperor about what he had found. He could have chosen to purge the possessed Serrated Suns the moment he realised what they were, turned the Fidelitas Lex around, and sailed back to the Imperium. Of course, he didn't, because those weren't him. He wasn't the kind of guy to make those choices, and that's why Chaos picked him, and that's where the joy of ADB's stories comes from - understanding the motivations of the characters he creates, and watching them make decisions, good and bad. Lorgar desperately wanted someone to worship. He desperately wanted to believe in religion's power to inspire humanity to reach amazing heights of culture, hence "the Perfect City" of Khur. He wanted to believe he was the messiah - and so, Ingethel told him that not only were the Gods real, but they had chosen - nay, created - him, Lorgar Aurelian, to be their divine instrument. And, of course, he lapped that up, because he wanted it to be true. Ingethel too understood this, and for their part the Gods wished to present themselves as being in perfect command of fate - as befitting Gods, and not mere warp organisms. They knew that Lorgar wanted to be a saviour, and told him what he wanted to hear. But was it? Personally, I don't think so. Lorgar being moulded by the Pantheon to be their instrument takes away his agency. Instead of having a flaw which he fails to overcome, he's turned into a puppet, walking inexorably towards becoming the First Heretic. I prefer the version where he makes a conscious decision to turn to the Dark Gods. A bad decision, influenced by a genetic flaw and a flawed personality, perhaps, but its his decision, consistent with what we know of him as a character in The First Heretic. TL;DR: Daemons always lie, men always deceive themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loesh Posted February 28, 2017 Share Posted February 28, 2017 A lot of this, I think, assumes a skill at genetic engineering the Emperor may simply not of had. The Emperor was a genius and immensely powerful psyker but he sttill could not take humanity to the heights of the Dark Age of Technology, if he could then why even research the webway for years? he would of deciphered it in a matter of months,he would of never even had researchers in the Imperial Dungeon anyways when he simply knew so much. But the Emperor was still striving for the pinnacle of knowledge rather then already being there, I think that the flaws inherent in the Primarchs were simply unintended rather then something he put in as a failsafe or grand design. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluntblade Posted February 28, 2017 Share Posted February 28, 2017 I agree with both the above arguments, though with the addendum that I imagine the Primarchs at least to be masterworks of science and sorcery beyond anything that preceded them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranwulf Posted February 28, 2017 Share Posted February 28, 2017 I agree with both the above arguments, though with the addendum that I imagine the Primarchs at least to be masterworks of science and sorcery beyond anything that preceded them. I mean, think about it. All the others Imperial super warriors were all based on someone - even the Custodes were genetic modified, but here is the thing, they weren't created. The Primarch themselves are the only example of created life. Ran Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mc warhammer Posted February 28, 2017 Share Posted February 28, 2017 A lot of this, I think, assumes a skill at genetic engineering the Emperor may simply not of had. The Emperor was a genius and immensely powerful psyker but he sttill could not take humanity to the heights of the Dark Age of Technology, if he could then why even research the webway for years? he would of deciphered it in a matter of months,he would of never even had researchers in the Imperial Dungeon anyways when he simply knew so much. But the Emperor was still striving for the pinnacle of knowledge rather then already being there, I think that the flaws inherent in the Primarchs were simply unintended rather then something he put in as a failsafe or grand design. how does that square with the seemingly curated primarch genetic material from that raven guard story that alpha legion knicked? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Captain Kezef Posted February 28, 2017 Share Posted February 28, 2017 The thing is, the Emperor didn't create the Primarchs himself, it was the work of a team trying not only to recreate ancient genetic tech but to move it forward. Sure, the Emperor did much of the heavy lifting but it was a complex and complicated project. Whether the flaws where deliberate or accidental I do wonder about the nature versus nurture argument based on the culture of the world they landed on. This raises an interesting question, how much did the Emperor know about where his son's landed? It strikes me as a strange coincidence that Curze's legion was recruited from Terran prisons as thier gene father was going all batman on a planet of crimelords. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mellow Posted February 28, 2017 Share Posted February 28, 2017 Didn't The Emperor use his powers to "find" His missing sons across the casts distances of the Void? I don't imagine He had much knowledge of each planet unless He had an out of date computer from the DAoT which had information on them. (Chances are slim as it would probably have been an AI computer from those times) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xisor Posted February 28, 2017 Share Posted February 28, 2017 I'm quite fond of the 'element of chance' introduced by Gav Thorpe. There was good discussion about the Emperor encouraging differences rather than planning it out in fine detail, or somesuch. --- I also rather like the idea that the 'death of the Eldar gods' at the Fall also meant the Emperor was free to "science" on bits of the Warp that might be... unattended at that time. Consequently, I'm also a big fan of the idea that the Primarchs are a set of Frankenstein's Monsters, albeit taken from the "body parts" of deceased gods, not deceased humans. Huge dollop of magical mystical sci-fi handwavium too, of course, but it's an engaging thought, and chimes nicely with the allegations of "deals with gods" and "stolen power" and all that, as well as a lot of the uncertainty arising from using psychic powers as part of the engineering process - psychic stuff isn't renowned for its precision and total lack of unintended/ironic consequences, after all... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mellow Posted February 28, 2017 Share Posted February 28, 2017 · Hidden by WarriorFish, February 28, 2017 - Xenos Hidden by WarriorFish, February 28, 2017 - Xenos I've always considered the Eldar gods to be physical beings rather than just Warp deities. Their lore makes out that they were active during the war in heaven. I suspect they were hyper evolved and larger forms of Eldar much like the Primarchs are larger than the Astartes. Link to comment
b1soul Posted March 1, 2017 Share Posted March 1, 2017 I don't imagine He had much knowledge of each planet unless He had an out of date computer from the DAoT which had information on them. (Chances are slim as it would probably have been an AI computer from those times) As I understand it, the cultures of Colchis, Fenris, Chogoris, Caliban etc. all developed/regressed during the Age of Strife, a 5,000 year period. A DAoT database would've been woefully outdated and largely inaccurate after 5,000 years, no? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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