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Arkhas Fal fallout with Corax timeline?

Carcharadons Astra Chapter Corvus Corax Great Crusade

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#1
Laughingman

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Hi new here and have a question for you fluff buffs. When was Arkhas Fal and the old guard of the pale nomads sent by Corax into the outer void? Also how many were sent? I'm asking because I was reading Carcharodons: Red Tithe and Arkhas Fal name was mentioned as a writer of the chapter's foundational text.
 
Anyway any fluff junkies have the answer to my question regarding the old legion master?

#2
Tyberos the Red Wake

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"By the time the Raven Lord took command of his Legion, the Great Crusade was over a century old. Corax was quick to impose the style of war he had perfected on Lycaeus over that which had come to define the XIXth Legion, melding stealth and guile with vigilance and swiftness. It was during these early years that much of the native demeanour of the old XIXth Legion, particularly the more cold-blooded ways of the Xeric tribes, was purged. The Legion had so often served in oppression, repression and occupation forces that Corax saw in some of the Terrans of his XIXth Legion something akin to the slavers of Lycaeus. Several of the Legion's highest-ranking officers were displaced or reassigned to non-command roles, including Lord Arkhas Fal, who had commanded the XIXth Legion as its Master for three decades before the coming of the Raven Lord."

 

At least 100 years after the Great Crusade, during Corax's early days.

 

He sent almost all of them away, if not in one fell swoop, most likely in massive waves. There were many known Terran RG who sided with Horus's strategy at Gate Forty-Two when Corax and Horus got into an argument about whether the RG should be allowed to sneak around or should charge the gate along with everyone else. "Reluctantly, Corax conceded to Horus' plan. He placed many of his Terran-dominated companies to the frontal assault, in particular those whose Captains appeared the most willing to support Horus' strategy."

 

Terrans and Arkhas Fal/Carcharodons weren't very nice guys, but Corax seemed just as prejudiced and cruel if you ask me. Especially when you look at it from the Terrans' perspective. They had served for 100 years, doing dirty jobs and keeping the legion together for their Primarch's inheritance. And when he arrives, what does he do? He strips all the officers and heroes of their rank and exiles them. It's also pretty hypocritical since Corax isn't above using murderers like Kaedes Nex to get the job done, so the "you guys are slavers!" argument seems like a cop out.


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#3
Paradigm

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The Nomad predation fleets were dispatched in 002.M31

We don't have solid numbers, however we do know some of the commanders, and that there were multiple chapters. There were likely a few fleets.

We can use information about a specific fleet to gleen info about the one(s) that birthed the space sharks.

One led by Praetor Calvus had ~ 4000 Astartes, 13 capital ships and twelve smaller vessels was composed mostly of the 19th legion's 18th chapter, "The Ashen Claws." It ended up going rogue under the chapter's Praetor, Nerat Kirine; later conquering much of the Nostramo sector and ghoul stars and coming to blows with both The Ultramarines and Night Lords during the scouring. Praetor Calvus likely died, as he was loyal to Corax and not Terran, unlike the remainder of the 18th chapter.

While the Ashen Claws likely did not become the Carcharadons one (or more) of the other fleets may have. Arkhas Fal was the legion master of the 19th before Corax was found and probably commanded one of the fleets, after gate 42.

Yet, Some of the 7th battalion of the early legion was sent out in an earlier Nomad Predation fleet around the time Corax was found. Arkhas was in command at that time, so the Carcharadons could be descended of this force instead of the later fleet after the battle of Gate 42.

#4
Laughingman

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Was wondering because I read Carcharadons: Red tithe and the main character (a captain of the 3rd company) wears a set of MK IV armor, which if I recall was not being issued in wide quantity until after Ullanor. It could have been acquired later ( stole it from the mantis warriors or some wayward chapter  in the distant past) but most of the rest of the company had a cobbled together mix of MKV and other earlier marks. In addition the terminator cadre "red brethren" were described to be clad in Indomitus pattern terminator armor which I thought was distributed in the post Hersey era? Either way I intend to build to a Carcharadons force and was hoping it was kosher with the cannon to include a wide variety of pre and post heresy armor marks. As well as more relic and esoteric war gear like deredeo dreadnoughts and quad mortars. So I figured knowing the time frame Arkhas Fal's fleet left would dictate what gear they largely were equipped with.



#5
Xenith

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"Arkhas" is an anagram of "A Shark".


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#6
Olis

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"Arkhas" is an anagram of "A Shark".

 

What about the 'Fel' bit? A Shark Elf? blink.png


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#7
Calas Typhon

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"Arkhas" is an anagram of "A Shark".

 

Arkas is also a name used around Ancient Greece, a base for names around all legions which are twisted around most of the time.

 

It seems that Red Tithe seems to chuck in quite a few hints to which legions may have formed the Chapter and how we would never truly know how it was formed, Robbie even pretty much confirmed it over facebook (will fill in with the quote when i find the damned thing). He even chucks in the Night Lords battlecry at a point.



#8
Xenith

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"Arkhas" is an anagram of "A Shark".

 

What about the 'Fel' bit? A Shark Elf? blink.png

 

 

Well, 'Fel/Fell' is a word of it's own, and quite fitting to the Space Shark theme.

 

So you can rearrange his name to make "A fel shark"


Edited by Xenith, 25 February 2017 - 02:19 PM.

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#9
Olis

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Well, 'Fel/Fell' is a word of it's own, and quite fitting to the Space Shark theme.

 

So you can rearrange his name to make "A fel shark"

 

That's a bit cheatsy-doodle, isn't it? You can't have an anagram of 'Fel' be 'Fel'... :lol:


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#10
Xenith

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It's more like a cryptic crossword, where some of the words in the clue are correct, some are anagrams etc. ;-)

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#11
Paradigm

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Pretty sure they are mono-legion sourced. Robbie stated in another thread that they know their history. If they had Night Lords as any kind of major component, they'd have recognized them as wayward brethren. But they treat them like an unknown enemy more or less, with the exception of the Pale Nomad, who'd dealt with them before at some point. I'm not saying they have zero Night Lord members in their ancestry, even the Raven Guard proper does, but they just can't be more than the slimmest number of Night Lords for reasons we've already gone over and over and over in other threads. The most reasonable mix of other legions that could likely contribute are some Luna Wolves, Death Guard, and Iron Warriors, as they also sent nomad fleets out around the same time as the Raven Guard, for as yet unfluffed-out reasons. Though I think it unlikely.

I think we have two very plausible and well fitting histories for them, future retcons notwithstanding:

Option 1 - Descended from the Nomad Predation fleet of 7th Battalion Lysithea veterans when Corax took control of the legion. Dispatched to the "Outer Darkness." Around 952.M30

 

So assuming a battalion in 30k is about the same size as now, between 400 and 1000 marines start the Space Sharks

Option 2 - Gate 42 survivors not attached to the same fleet as the 18th Chapter sent in 002.M31. 

Assuming these fleets were split fairly equally around 4000 marines start the Space Sharks.



#12
Laughingman

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I was under the impression Corax was found in 948.M30 so option 1 would indicate within 10 years of corax taking control of the legion, he had demoted and banished the former Legion master, ouch, no wounder they call Corax the "forgotten one". But it would not explain where the space sharks got Hersey-era armor (like the 3rd captains set of MK IV armor, or the later pattern Terminator Armor the first company appears to wear. Maybe Im just overthinking it.


Edited by Laughingman, 26 February 2017 - 03:26 AM.


#13
bluntblade

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Just because the Raven Lord didn't care for them doesn't mean Horus wouldn't consider them worth keeping track of and keeping supplied.

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#14
Brother Aiwass

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A 30k battalion size is 2+ 30k companies, so the numbers should be a bit bigger if you ask me. And for the Heresy Era armor can it be as Bluntblade suggests, or that they simply scavenged whatever enemy they faced, Ashen Claws style.


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#15
pompeyladbfp

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They probably have a authority to restock at adeptus mechanicus ammo dumps/armour supplies?

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#16
Paradigm

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Well, they are raiders and effectively Blackshields during the heresy, I think there'd be lots of opportunity collect newer wargear. The indomitus pattern terminator armor though came out around the same time as cataphractii and tartaros it just wasn't as common until later, and the helmet went through a few revisions.

Also, I think battalions being bigger makes an early origin much more viable.

#17
Wolf Lord Loki

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Also, something to consider. When Guiliman had his massive shake up of the Imperium post scouring he probably gathered vast numbers of astartes to him that had been black shields throughout the heresy.

These would have been told how things were going to be now that the legions are being broken down.

I wouldnt be surprised if the offer to resupply, rearm and head out as a new loyal chapter wouldnt have been part of the deal. If you dont accept this deal then be considered a traitor and a renegade.

That would mean new armours and weapons form what ever stockpiles are left.

Now if you were a cast out Raven Guard who was happy raiding from the dark, then you might take the offer from Guiliman, collect your kit, your legitimate recognisiin of being a loyal chapter and head back out to the dark.
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#18
Laughingman

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Thats what I assumed happened to loyalist black-shields like Crysos Morturg 108th "independent company"  or surviving elements of the  Nemean Reaver "dark brotherhood" (a chapter in the 41st millennium bears the same name).  After having been "pardoned" and given new cover story,  "oh yeah those guys, totally second founding ultramarines descendants" and rearmed, they were sent back to the edges of the galaxy to maintain a low profile and shore up the imperium against enemies of man.

 

Alternatively I was musing that the loyalist of traitor legions (there likely were not many), would have been formed up into early honor guards, for the nascent inquisition, or deployed as training cadres for newer less experienced  second founding chapters, 

 

 

I suspect the carcharodons  may have  returned to the imperium  a couple of decades after the HH to rearm ( the grey tithe) and found the legions disbanded and Corax missing, and simply reorganized the survivors, ( depending on the numbers they started out with, could have varied, I suspect original fleet numbered  800 to 4000 legionaries) rearmed with what gear they could find, and simply continued the last orders Corax gave them.


Edited by Laughingman, 27 February 2017 - 06:37 AM.


#19
Brother Aiwass

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Don't know. By the reading of Red Tithe, it looks like they're gone from the Imperium and never returned. Meaning is that they are still loyal, but they supply on their own, always wandering. They are astartes, and Imperial ones. As they "recruit" from penal worlds, they'll resupply from forge-worlds due the ancient pacts with the Mechanicum, a thing that also will explain their different armor marks.


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#20
Kelborn

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RobMac stated in his Carcharodons novel thread that they get new members + slaves via the Red Tithe and wargear + tanks via the Grey Tithe.

 

Sounds to me that they scavenge battlefields or Forgeworlds on which they'd fought.


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#21
Paradigm

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I think they're in some ways they're like the Marines Malevolent, taking what they need when they need to. However, I think they probably have a Martian connection somewhere. I feel like there was mention of an ancient pact, but I don't know if I'm mixing up another story. Considering they are basically the continuation of the original XIXth legion, it makes a lot of sense. You don't have that long a history without developing ties to your supply chain. They are so old, it is like they are a XXIst legion spun off from the XIXth. I'd be surprised if they weren't a lot larger than a typical chapter as well, though we have no indication of their current strength.