[3000] Night Lords DAV

[em_en_oh_pee]

HQ:

Chaplain

Artificer Armor, Refractor Field, Jump Pack, Trophies

[130]

 

Vigilator

Artificer Armor, Jump Pack, Refractor Field, Trophies

[130]

 

Forge Lord

Jump Pack, Boarding Shield, Nuncio Vox, Rad Grenades

[135]

 

Elites:

(2) Apothecarion Detachment

Jump Packs

[120]

 

(2) Apothecarion Detachment

Jump Packs

[120]

 

Troops:

[Assault Vanguard]

 

(15) Assault Squad (Chaplain, Apoth)

3x Power Axe, Power Fist & Artificer Armor

[295]

 

(15) Assault Squad (Apoth)

3x Power Axe, Power Fist & Artificer Armor

[295]

 

(10) Assault Squad (Apoth, Curze)

2x Power Axe, Thunder Hammer & Artificer Armor

[225]

 

[standard Deployment]

(15) Assault Squad (Apoth, Vigilator, Forge Lord)

3x Power Axe, Thunder Hammer & Artificer Armor

[300]

 

Fast Attack:

Xiphon

[205]

 

Primaris-Lightining

4x Kraken, BSC, GTA

[230]

 

(2) Javelins

CML, Multimelta

[130]

 

Heavy:

Fire Raptor

Reaper, AC, Hellstrikes

[250]

 

Lord of War:

Konrad Curze

[435]

 

[3000]

 

I have been endlessly tinkering with DAV lists for a few months. Right now, I think this is somewhat doable. The obvious stuff is the Xiphon for AA, the Fire Raptor as a general brute, the Javs for anti-tank, while the Primaris is there to nuke Spartans and Knights, etc. The rest is 55 Assault Marines and their attached characters. The Vigilator and Forge Lord join a squad, scout up and offer up a Nuncio Vox option for my squads, With it being a rather large squad, I have a fair bubble to land in without scatter. Also, thanks to Curze, I get Night Fighting on the Drop Turn., which pairs well with From the Shadows. On T1, the three squads drop in as the Vanguard and have the Darken the Skies perk kick in, meaning enemies Snap Shot at me within 12". With so many large units coming in, ideally not scattering, that is a pretty sizable bubble. Everything benefits from Talent for Murder since everything is Bulky. I will almost always outnumber, meaning armywide +1 to-hit an to-wound, which is just awesome. Apothecaries are everywhere, too, to help mitigate enemy shooting, which is a big concern. On a plus, not that Fear is the end-all for the game, but there is a whole lot of it in this list, so any chance to further dominate in combat is good! 
 

Overall, I am somewhat satisfied with this most recent incarnation of the list. Any ideas, thoughts, improvements? I am all ears! 

[Lord Asvaldir]

I'm not sure the idea with the vigilator and forge lord is really worth it just to get a tiny bubble for no DS scatter. The forgelord is in a rather big unit, and you're trying to DS two big units within 6" of him which sounds rather difficult. Plus any blast weapons are going to have a heyday with that blob of closely packed deep strikers. Yes ideally you'd force snap shots on any blast weapons, but that's rather difficult, especially because any blast weapon could just fire a suad that's further away outside that twelve inch bubble even if the closest unit is in the bubble. Really I think the advantage for forcing snap shots is that it means you can't be rapid fired at, for longer range heavier weapons it's really the cover save you can rely on more. Part of my dislike of the vigilator/forgelord idea is that you're already investing a huge amount of pts in characters, if I'm already going to be taking Curze I'd only want one other character for my compulsory slot but that's just my preference. 

 

As for the rest of the list, wow that's a lot of assault marines. I really don't think you need that much, you might be better off taking something like deep striking terminators or veterans in a dreadclaw that can take combi weapons and add a little more firepower to the list. 

[em_en_oh_pee]

It is 6" of a unit with a Nuncio Vox, not the model. Plus, I would try to get close to anything truly dangerous. Typhons are my major worry. Otherwise, armor/cover and FNP helps survive a lot. I expect to lose models, which is why I have so many! I probably could scrap the Chappy, but not sure what else I would want to buy with the points. The FL/Vigilator combo is really my only way to mitigate mishaps, so I am not sure I would want to give that up.

[Angmarred]

I still don't see the appeal of DAV. Your vox scouts forward 6 and you drop another 6 forward. 12" exactly the same as if you had just deployed and moved forward. Whether you go first or second you still expose yourself to one turn of shooting before the hopefull charge.

 

So basically take almost crippling FOC restrictions in exchange for

Snap shots within 12" - sounds good, but is it? Your unit has a dope cover save, 3+ and FNP. Anything with short ranged weapons will be moving backwards likely and the stuff you're really scared of (typhons, phosphex mortars, etc) will be more than 12" away since you're only dropping 12 + run move forward.

Hit and Run on your turn 2 Assault phase which you'll almost never use.

 

Am i missing something?

[em_en_oh_pee]

Scout is movement, which is 12" for Jump Infantry. T2 assault with 55 assault Marines with TfM doesn't seem too bad. Typhons and Quads are my first priorities. If I can make then Snap, good on me, especially the Typhon. The Primaris will nuke it.

 

And the one turn of shooting they get may be severely handicapped. Otherwise, cover and FNP is helpful and I have a load of bodies.

 

What am I missing?

[Angmarred]

Are you sure about that? Scout move is based off unit type. Jump Infantry are still infantry and scout 6, right?

 

You can t2 assault without DAV. 12" move plus run puts you just as close.

 

Typhons and mortars are your top priority, but you have nothing that can shoot them. In DAV all your shooting is in reserve.

 

I dont think anything that is going to benefit from rapid fire is going to move within 12 of those assault squads with or without rapid fire. In the DAV if they stay meched up you need to rely on reserve rolls to even have stuff your your guys to charge.

[Lord Asvaldir]

You're right about our the nuncio vox, which certainly helps a lot. I'd say the forge lord/vigilator combo is worth it in that case, within 6" of a fifteen man assault squad is a wide area you have covered. Still think you don't need that many assault marines, yes bodies are important but the amount you have is just excessive. I'd drop the ten man squad and take something more versatile like veterans or terminators. Jetbikes are also pretty handy in DAV.

 

Jump infantry don't scout 6". Scout just gives you a normal move before the game starts, so jump infantry gets you a full 12", so you'll be so deep striking 18" up the board which makes a turn 2 charge pretty easy where it might be difficult in a normal list with assault marines.

 

Also have to disagree on your point a out rapid fire. Of course something like a plasma support squad is going to want to light up your big bad assault marines squad with say Curze in it. With DAV it's unlikely rapid fire weapons will get in double tap range before you can change. I think the rite is still worth the restrictions especially given how well it synergies with NL rules.

[Angmarred]

Scout: "If the unit is Infantry,..., each model can redeploy anywhere within 6" of its current position."

 

It's not a move, it's a redeploy. The distance is based on unit type. Jump Infantry are still infantry.

 

A full plasma support squad shoots 20 times, hits 14 times (plus loses a guy to gets hot), wounds 12 times. 10 of those wounds are saved with 2+ cover and they still get FNP. Congrats you just sacrificed a 300 point squad to kill 2 assault marines. The numbers are better if Curze isn't there but you still kill a handful of assault Marines who then charge and slaughter your support squad.

[em_en_oh_pee]

Scout: "If the unit is Infantry,..., each model can redeploy anywhere within 6" of its current position."

 

It's not a move, it's a redeploy. The distance is based on unit type. Jump Infantry are still infantry.

 

A full plasma support squad shoots 20 times, hits 14 times (plus loses a guy to gets hot), wounds 12 times. 10 of those wounds are saved with 2+ cover and they still get FNP. Congrats you just sacrificed a 300 point squad to kill 2 assault marines. The numbers are better if Curze isn't there but you still kill a handful of assault Marines who then charge and slaughter your support squad.

 

Ah, but partially quoting does you no favors. 

 

"If the unit is Infantry, Artillery, a Walker or a Monstrous Creature, each model can redeploy anywhere entirely within 6" of its current position. If it is any other unit type, each model can instead redeploy anywhere entirely within 12" of its current position."

 

"Jump Infantry would, for example, follow the rules for Jump units and Infantry." 

 

Jump Infantry is not just infantry. It is part of the grouping under "Jump" units, giving it a secondary unit classification. That means it can meet the bold stipulation above, as it would fall into "any other unit type" by being Jump Infantry, not Infantry. I wish GW had cleared this up in the FAQ/Errata, but to me it looks pretty clear that Jump Infantry are redeploying 12". 

 

As for the list, it could use some more solid T1 anti-tank. That looks to be a major weakness. I am thinking of scrapping the Chappy and one of the larger squads to free up points. Here is what I am tinkering with currently:

 

HQ:

Vigilator 

Artificer Armor, Jump Pack, Refractor Field, Nostroman Chainglaive, Trophies 

[145] 

 

Forge Lord

Jump Pack, Boarding Shield, Nuncio Vox, Rad Grenades, Power Axe

[150]

 

Elites:

(3) Apothecarion Detachment

Jump Packs

[180]

 

(5) Legion Cataphractii Terminators 

2x Chainfist & Combi-Melta, 2x Combi-Meltas & Power Axes

Anvillus Dreadclaw, 1x Thunder Hammer, Combi-Melta

[355]

 

Troops:

[Assault Vanguard]

 

(15) Assault Squad (Apoth)

3x Power Axe, Power Fist & Artificer Armor, Combat Shield

[298]

 

(12) Assault Squad (Apoth, Curze)

2x Power Axe, Power Fist & Artificer Armor

[246]

 

[standard Deployment]

(15) Assault Squad (Apoth, Vigilator, Forge Lord)

3x Power Axe, Power Fist & Artificer Armor

[295]

 

Fast Attack:

Xiphon

[205]

 

Primaris-Lightining

4x Kraken, BSC, GTA

[230]

 

(3) Javelins

CML, Multimelta, 1x HK each

[210]

 

Heavy:

Fire Raptor

Reaper, AC, Hellstrikes

[250]

 

Lord of War:

Konrad Curze

[435]

 

[2999]

 

Still get a lot of the perks from TfM. Got a single Pod on T1 with 5 Combi-meltas for some good anti-tank. Still have the Vox for deep strike but less Assault Marines overall, because it was a bit excessive (and expensive). Added a Jav and some HKs, so my anti-tank firepower got a boost there too. And with all the cuts to Assault Marines, I still have 27 coming in T1, Curze included, meaning some nasty T2 assaults ideally. 

 

Thoughts? Is this a step in the right direction or does it undermine the DAV concept?

[Angmarred]

I'm not convinced. The Jump Unit entry IMO pretty clearly states that JI are Infantry. I'll post a topic in the Rules forum.

 

If you can accurately drop the squads 18" forward that makes the DAV better but I still don't love it. You have so much of your firepower that relies on unmodified reserve rolls.

[em_en_oh_pee]

I'm not convinced. The Jump Unit entry IMO pretty clearly states that JI are Infantry. I'll post a topic in the Rules forum.

 

If you can accurately drop the squads 18" forward that makes the DAV better but I still don't love it. You have so much of your firepower that relies on unmodified reserve rolls.

 

Yea, but they have a pretty solid chance of coming in T2. It is only really three units, unless I want to Deep Strike the Javs. 

 

Also, Jump units have their own entry in the rulebook or I would agree. That they are categorically different per the rulebook means they aren't just infantry, imo.

[Angmarred]

I'm not sure you need a Xiphon and a Fire Raptor. I might be tempted to teleport the Terminators and change the Raptor to a podded Leviathan.

[em_en_oh_pee]

I'm not sure you need a Xiphon and a Fire Raptor. I might be tempted to teleport the Terminators and change the Raptor to a podded Leviathan.

 

Xiphon is anti-air, which the list will lack otherwise. Plus, it is anti-tank too with its firepower. The Fire Raptor is also anti-tank with those Hellstrikes and generally has solid firepower otherwise. 

 

Also, can't take a Podded Leviathan in the list unless I stick it in a Kharybdis. DAV is pretty restrictive and at that point, I might as well run my Terror Assault list. 

[Angmarred]

Oh man. I didn't quite realize how restrictive that is. No dread drop pods? That's terrible.

[em_en_oh_pee]

Oh man. I didn't quite realize how restrictive that is. No dread drop pods? That's terrible.

 

The idea is variety, man. I already have lists with Pod 'Naughts. I don't need them in every list. :D

[Lord Asvaldir]

Yeah I feel the same way about DAV, it's an opportunity to try a heavy flier/assault marine list. Already often take 3 dreadnoughts in terror assault. 

 

I think the new list is better, those terminators offer some turn one anti tank the list was lacking. The only small change I'd make is take out the thunder hammer, stick to the anti tank role the terminator unit is made for and make sure every man has a fist/chainfist, so they can all at least hurt any sort of tank in an assault. 

 

Just a thought if you want to be less reliant on reserve rolls, you could replace the xiphon with sky slayers. Pretty much any of their weapon options are useful and they add a larger turn one presence to the list, and I feel like a fire raptor should be up to the task of taking out any fliers. It would of course also be ideal to find pts for a second HK missile on each javelin but that might be tough. 

[em_en_oh_pee]

Yeah I feel the same way about DAV, it's an opportunity to try a heavy flier/assault marine list. Already often take 3 dreadnoughts in terror assault. 

 

I think the new list is better, those terminators offer some turn one anti tank the list was lacking. The only small change I'd make is take out the thunder hammer, stick to the anti tank role the terminator unit is made for and make sure every man has a fist/chainfist, so they can all at least hurt any sort of tank in an assault. 

 

Just a thought if you want to be less reliant on reserve rolls, you could replace the xiphon with sky slayers. Pretty much any of their weapon options are useful and they add a larger turn one presence to the list, and I feel like a fire raptor should be up to the task of taking out any fliers. It would of course also be ideal to find pts for a second HK missile on each javelin but that might be tough. 

 

I am not that sure the Fire Raptor can handle the AA role. Against AV12 flyers, it isn't exactly killing one easily. It needs 6's for the ABC and 5's for the Reaper, meaning it can strip HP if it is lucky, but isn't going to drop an enemy Fire Raptor in a single volley. The Xiphon does that with two S9 and 2 S8 AP 2 shots, the missiles also force re-rolls on Jink/Cover. It is really the best dogfighter. And if it doesn't have flyers to fight, those high Str shots aren't wasted on tanks. 

 

I thought the hammer would give it variety, but I can always go for another Chainfist if need be. If I don't find I need three of them, I can drop it and maybe the Trophies off the Vigilator to put another HK on each Jav. 

[Lord Asvaldir]

I won't deny that the xiphon is better at the anti flier role, but that being said I think you're selling the fire raptor short. The hellstrike missiles will fairly easily pen any flier, and considering fliers are often less then armor twelve the autocannons should be up to the task of downing most fliers. I mean I guess if you consistently have to face armor twelve fliers the xiphon is more useful but I rarely have that problem.

[em_en_oh_pee]

Well, I was going to lob those Hellstrikes at ground targets, since that is a weakness in my list. Would be good to pop Sicarans and Dreads, etc. Or get outside Ion Shield arcs.

[Ghorgul]

I like this list a lot, I have been also tinkering with NL DAV list, although my approach less flier heavy. The whole RoW feels very fluffy for Night Lords, sudden assault conducted by gliding jump infantry in to enemy position, what is there not to like!

 

The dreadclaw terminators are solid choice for AT and in general.

The H&R during 2nd turn you mentioned earlier, I see this ability to be there mostly so you can disengage your "possibly" hard-hitting Vanguard from tarpitting or scary enemy unit, to allow it to go after higher value targets, deny objectives to enemies etc. Also by the 2nd turn you should be able to tie down cc capable enemy shooting units, Heavy Support Squads, Artillery etc. with Fast units such as Scimitar Jetbikes, so the disengagement shouldn't be as risky.

So what I am saying is you should plan ahead what you will do if your vanguard gets charged, and I see smartest choice to be having a 2nd cheaper unit able to charge into same combat and kind of switch with the tied down vanguard. Just Hit&Running away at end of your turn when it is only allowed will likely end up with you getting charged again by same unit, 3D6" is on average less than 6"+2D6". Also clearly the closest to enemy vanguard unit causing snap shot bubble should be scary, otherwise enemy will just shoot at the higher value targets. Same way the scary vanguard is also the one unit enemy will throw cheap units at to bog it down and stop it from wreaking havoc all over the field.

[em_en_oh_pee]

I like this list a lot, I have been also tinkering with NL DAV list, although my approach less flier heavy. The whole RoW feels very fluffy for Night Lords, sudden assault conducted by gliding jump infantry in to enemy position, what is there not to like!

 

The dreadclaw terminators are solid choice for AT and in general.

The H&R during 2nd turn you mentioned earlier, I see this ability to be there mostly so you can disengage your "possibly" hard-hitting Vanguard from tarpitting or scary enemy unit, to allow it to go after higher value targets, deny objectives to enemies etc. Also by the 2nd turn you should be able to tie down cc capable enemy shooting units, Heavy Support Squads, Artillery etc. with Fast units such as Scimitar Jetbikes, so the disengagement shouldn't be as risky.

So what I am saying is you should plan ahead what you will do if your vanguard gets charged, and I see smartest choice to be having a 2nd cheaper unit able to charge into same combat and kind of switch with the tied down vanguard. Just Hit&Running away at end of your turn when it is only allowed will likely end up with you getting charged again by same unit, 3D6" is on average less than 6"+2D6". Also clearly the closest to enemy vanguard unit causing snap shot bubble should be scary, otherwise enemy will just shoot at the higher value targets. Same way the scary vanguard is also the one unit enemy will throw cheap units at to bog it down and stop it from wreaking havoc all over the field.

 

Half my Vanguard already has H&R thanks to Curze. The other half has it for what you stated - getting out of a sticky situation I didn't anticipate on GT2. 

 

As much as I love this list, it is on hold. I currently have most of a Terror Assault army purchased, so that is taking priority. But I am with you - this screams Night Lords. I think flyer-heavy helps mitigate some of its weaknesses, but also is somewhat mandatory because of how damn restrictive it is.