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Rafen IX

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Sun Reaver Battle-Brother

Sun Reaver

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Why did Dante freak out about the Angels Vermillion? I tried looking it up online and 1d4chan said something about the "sorrowing" but I don't really think they are the most accurate website out there.

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ServoBadger Veteran

ServoBadger

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Why did Dante freak out about the Angels Vermillion? I tried looking it up online and 1d4chan said something about the "sorrowing" but I don't really think they are the most accurate website out there.

The short story Eminence Sanguis covers this, it's in the collectors edition Dante book but I'm not sure if it's available separately.

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Arkangilos Venerable Brother

Arkangilos

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Why did Dante freak out about the Angels Vermillion? I tried looking it up online and 1d4chan said something about the "sorrowing" but I don't really think they are the most accurate website out there.

Well the short story that came with it is about the High Chaplains visit to their fortress monastery. It is also a good place to see the description of the Angels Vermillion fortress monestary!

 

Two sets of spoiler, the first is the basic, the second is the more indepth

 

Blood bags ;)

 

Basically Astorath, a captain, two of his guys, and the at the time high chaplain Hereon (it's set in the 400's of M41 and Astorath isn't the High chaplain yet) go to investigate the disappearance of civilian ships and refugees of a world liberated by the Angels Vermillion. They only very reluctantly only allow Hereon down to the world, and it was very tense. The chapter master of the AV says he'll send the ships back, but the people are (in fact everyone in the fortress monastery) are missing. Hereon basically demands to know why, and so he shows him. They have all of the civilians and chapter serfs hooked up to Blood letting machines in a ritual that happens once every fifty years called "the Sorrowing". Hereon freaks out, kills two of the Sanguinary Guard (who are painted red, not gold, and take on a more daemonic aspect) and then gets stopped. The chapter master says he doesn't want to do it but they found right after the Heresy that they had the thirst. They originally thought it was just them, and that's what started their seclusion (it was and is out of shame). But they fall to the thirst and rage less than most of the others.

 

Hereon criticizes him, and the chapter master basically says they are all doomed anyways, and that they save more than they kill, and that the Blood Tithe is a small price to pay for their greater service. He then explains how much they honor those that give their blood and they even kill a Sanguinary Priest to add the Blood of Sanguinius to the big pool of blood as a huge honor. Hereon once again freaks out and says he and Dante will expose them, and the CM basically says, "do that and I'll tell the inquisition all about our flaw, and they'll kill us (all the sons of Sanguinius)." He then lets him go and tells him to never return. He (the CM) continuously emphasizes that they ARE monsters, but that they aren't as bad, and they do it so that they can continue to save people and bring light to the shadow.

 

So Hereon basically only tells Dante.

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Panzer Veteran

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...and that's worse than the flesh tearers/knights of blood? I don't think so, personally anyways. Don't get me wrong, it's messed up, but not that bad...

Eh it's a different kind of bad. It's the "we do bad stuff on purpose" kind of bad while Flesh Tearers are the "we don't hide what we are" kind of bad just because it will most likely draw the Inquisitions attention and the Knights of Blood are the "we have no control and are a danger for everyone around us" kind of bad.

 

So while you can't really be mad about the Knights of Blood (they even keep their distance just not to drag everyone into their mess with the Inquisition) and can be slightly mad and worried about what the Flesh Tearers are doing, the way the Angels Vermillion decided to go and act towards their brothers and fellow humans which they are supposed to protect pretty much borders into a no-go area. Chapters got declared renegade and disappeared for less and they obviously don't give a f* about what their parent chapter thinks about it.

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Sun Reaver Battle-Brother

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...and that's worse than the flesh tearers/knights of blood? I don't think so, personally anyways. Don't get me wrong, it's messed up, but not that bad...

I think Dante frowns on all of it equally

 

 

I think Dante sympathizes with the FT, KOB, and all the other chapters as a whole because they are constantly trying to do the right thing, despite the fact that they are doomed/prone to rage. Hell, even marines in his own chapter sometimes go off and do some violent stuff.  It's just that they cant control the "friendly fire." And almost every single time, they feel remorse.

 

However, the KOB were excommunicated because of the black rage, not because of the thirst.  

 

The Red Thirst is a necessity. Dante knows every Son of Sanguinius must partake in some form of blood drinking. He knows how powerful the thirst can be. So powerful in fact that he forbade himself to drink blood for hundreds of years. However, most chapters only succumb to the thirst on things that are dying, freshly dead, etc - like the alien in the book. 

 

The AV on the other hand, they literally have a blood farm.

 

That is wrong - at least according to Dante. Just my rather longer than intended 2 cents. 

 

As an aside - Dante mentions the KOB were only excommunicated by the Ordos Astartes (please correct if mistaken). Is there a branch of the Imperium that monitors and handle Space Marine chapters? And if so, can they excommunicate without the consent of the High Lords? Are they autonomous? 

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Arkangilos Venerable Brother

Arkangilos

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...and that's worse than the flesh tearers/knights of blood? I don't think so, personally anyways. Don't get me wrong, it's messed up, but not that bad...

One kills a group of people by accident in the heat of battle, the other regularly kidnaps while ships full of innocent *civilians* who went to them *for help* and drains them of their blood *while still alive*. They do so while being perfectly lucid.

 

When a FT kills the innocent or good guy, it isn't a conscious choice. They don't do it for their *own* reason. They do it because they black out. That's why Dante doesn't just cut them off.

 

Throughout the book, it shows Dante as selfless and sacrificing. Even as a kid he would sacrifice himself to save others. So the fact that one of his cousins are sacrificing others to save themselves is literally the complete opposite to him.

 

And THEN, to top it all off, they told Dante, "if you snitch on us I'll personally see to the destruction the entire legacy of Sanguinius!"

 

Basically they are willing to kill their own siblings (or threaten to) if they go down.

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Panzer Veteran

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...and that's worse than the flesh tearers/knights of blood? I don't think so, personally anyways. Don't get me wrong, it's messed up, but not that bad...

I think Dante frowns on all of it equally

 

 

I think Dante sympathizes with the FT, KOB, and all the other chapters as a whole because they are constantly trying to do the right thing, despite the fact that they are doomed/prone to rage. Hell, even marines in his own chapter sometimes go off and do some violent stuff.  It's just that they cant control the "friendly fire." And almost every single time, they feel remorse.

 

However, the KOB were excommunicated because of the black rage, not because of the thirst.  

 

The Red Thirst is a necessity. Dante knows every Son of Sanguinius must partake in some form of blood drinking. He knows how powerful the thirst can be. So powerful in fact that he forbade himself to drink blood for hundreds of years. However, most chapters only succumb to the thirst on things that are dying, freshly dead, etc - like the alien in the book. 

 

The AV on the other hand, they literally have a blood farm.

 

That is wrong - at least according to Dante. Just my rather longer than intended 2 cents. 

 

As an aside - Dante mentions the KOB were only excommunicated by the Ordos Astartes (please correct if mistaken). Is there a branch of the Imperium that monitors and handle Space Marine chapters? And if so, can they excommunicate without the consent of the High Lords? Are they autonomous? 

 

Actually it got never specifically mentioned whether Knights of Blood suffer more from the Black Rage or the Red Thirst but if you read the wikia, lexicanum and 1d4chan pages it all sounds more like the Red Thirst. Especially passages like "As the Knights of Blood's barely controlled blood lust rises in battle,....".

Or rather a completely new form of the twin-curse following those infos: "In reality, the Flaw has merely degenerated into new and even more worrying forms and so the Battle-Brothers of those Chapters founded in more recent times do not suffer slight lapses of control, but teeter on the border of full-blown insanity when the Black Range and the Red Thirst manifest themselves."

 

The whole Knights of Blood thing is a real tragic story in the end. Supposedly cured from the twin-curse just to eventually end up having barely any control over even the Red Thirst (as I interpret the given infos at least) and being unwanted allies due their problems with the Inquisition.

If anything Dante is probably more sad about the state of the Knights of Blood than being mad about them.

 

And yes the Knights of Blood got only declared renegade by the Lords of Terra/Ordo Astartes. Something not every Astartes accepts as proper judgement since Astartes matters should get dealt with by Astartes normally.

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durdle-durdle Battle-Brother

durdle-durdle

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...and that's worse than the flesh tearers/knights of blood? I don't think so, personally anyways. Don't get me wrong, it's messed up, but not that bad...

One kills a group of people by accident in the heat of battle, the other regularly kidnaps while ships full of innocent *civilians* who went to them *for help* and drains them of their blood *while still alive*. They do so while being perfectly lucid.

 

When a FT kills the innocent or good guy, it isn't a conscious choice. They don't do it for their *own* reason. They do it because they black out. That's why Dante doesn't just cut them off.

 

Throughout the book, it shows Dante as selfless and sacrificing. Even as a kid he would sacrifice himself to save others. So the fact that one of his cousins are sacrificing others to save themselves is literally the complete opposite to him.

 

And THEN, to top it all off, they told Dante, "if you snitch on us I'll personally see to the destruction the entire legacy of Sanguinius!"

 

Basically they are willing to kill their own siblings (or threaten to) if they go down.

 

Oh, I took it as they take blood, but otherwise let them leave. Didn't realize they were straight draining them dry.

 

That changes things.

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Frater Antodeniel Veteran

Frater Antodeniel

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Well, it is time for some Librarian work^^ :

 

About the vision of Dante on the Flesh Tearers :

 

- As stated in the Blood Angels Codex (7th edition), it is under Gabriel Seth ruling that the Flesh Tearers chapter recreated a dialogue/link with the Blood Angels chapter, a thing that was considered as nearly impossible.

 

Given the fact that Gabriel Seth is ~300 years old and Dante ~1500, it can be considered that before Seth becoming Chapter Master and vowing to Dante to bring honor back to the chapter and the memory of Sanguinius, as stated in the Flesh Tearers/Trial By Blood Novel, the Flesh Tearers were as outcasts as the Angels Vermilllon are now.

 

About the vision of Dante on the Knights of Blood :

 

- In the Short Story, Reflection in Blood, when Rafen offers the Knights of Blood to come back to Baal to see for themselves if the Blood Angels are still loyal to Sanguinius memories (Reflection in Blood story is partly linked with the events of the Blood Angels civil war), the Knights of Blood politly refuse the offer, answering that "Baal is now forever denied to us".

 

This sentence impliying that the Knights of Blood, either do not want to come back to Baal due to being branded as Renegades by the Ordo, or that the access to Baal is forbidden to them because of Dante orders.

 

(Remember once again that Dante is ~1500 years old and that the Knights of Blood have been declared renegades for 1000 years, so Dante was Chapter Master when the KOB were excomunicated). Altrough, the whole Reflection of Blood Story tend to implies that the KOB may act as Dante shadow hand....but it isn't clear, so it is open to everyone interpretations.

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

In the end, it appears that Dante decision about the Angels Vermillon isn't an exception but rather the common one.

 

(Now, given the fact that the Short Story Eminence Sanguis is that important Fluff-wise, since it explain the reason of what was a total mystery for years until now, i kinda regret not buying the limited edition...but it is too late now^^. Thanks for those who have it in hand and share it with us. =) ).

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Sun Reaver Battle-Brother

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Perhaps Baal is now forever denied to them because allowing a chapter declared renegade to peacefully land on your homeworld can get you in big trouble?

 

I took that sentence as the KOB don't go there because they don't want to get anyone else in trouble, not because of Dante's edicts. If Dante had issued some sort of order, Rafen wouldn't have made the offer then, right?

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Panzer Veteran

Panzer

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Perhaps Baal is now forever denied to them because allowing a chapter declared renegade to peacefully land on your homeworld can get you in big trouble?

 

I took that sentence as the KOB don't go there because they don't want to get anyone else in trouble, not because of Dante's edicts. If Dante had issued some sort of order, Rafen wouldn't have made the offer then, right?

Same here. Would also fit the other descriptions how they handle the situation and act towards their brothers/other astartes.

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