b1soul Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 Was flipping through Betrayer and came across this bit... Lorgar and Horus discuss the issue of Sanguinius: Horus sensed that was as much as he was going to get. ‘One last matter, then. What of Signus Prime?’ The Word Bearer was already fading. ‘Signus Prime is your game, Horus. I have greater matters on my mind.’ ‘Greater matters?’ Irritation marked the Warmaster’s flawless features again. ‘But Sanguinius…’ ‘Sanguinius will stand at Eternity Gate with tears in his eyes and acid in his heart, no matter what you and Erebus hope to accomplish at Signus Prime. Remember that, when your gambit there fails. Remember it when you face the Angel on the final day. Remember that I was the one who told you how it would really end.’ ‘What is a “greater matter” than the Angel, at this stage of the game?’ ‘Almost everything,’ Lorgar’s voice emerged from the cold air. ‘Ultramar. Fulgrim. Guilliman. Wars we can actually win. There are only two among us who would stand in defiance of the Angel’s wrath, Horus. Only two who would see him slain, once he fights with nothing left to lose. You are one. Angron is the other.’ Truth dawned behind the Warmaster’s eyes. ‘You’ve foreseen it. I hear it in your voice. And that’s why you strive so hard to keep him alive.’ Apparently an enraged Sang is very scary indeed...not an angel of hope but an angel of vengeance perhaps 1. Do you think Sanguinius deserves special status alongside Horus? Is Sang the Archangel Michael to Horus' Lucifer Morningstar? Or does that detract from Horus' special status? 2. Do you think it's a good idea to have Sang dispose of Ka'bandha at Signus and then face Daemon Angron at Terra? Seems to be what Fear to Tread and Betrayer are setting up? 3. Would you like it if BL confirms that Sanguinius does some significant damage to Horus before going down, i.e. a slighly less lop-sided curb-stomp than Collected Vision's take? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluntblade Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 Horus should still wreck the Emperor, but then perhaps Sanguinius holds back much less, and he is a seer. I'd say that Lupercal's special status is pretty safe, all things considered. Especially now that he's into his "destroyer of creation" phase (still get a little shiver when I remember that entrance) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Drekkan Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 In old lore Sanguinus was the Imperial's paragon during the heresy, even breaching Horus armor for the Emperor to finish the job. In new lore, as A-D-B kindly explain to us, things have to evolve. So I would like BL to respect and expand old lore, idealy by tasking an ascended fanboy to write Terra. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 Was flipping through Betrayer and came across this bit... Lorgar and Horus discuss the issue of Sanguinius: Horus sensed that was as much as he was going to get. ‘One last matter, then. What of Signus Prime?’ The Word Bearer was already fading. ‘Signus Prime is your game, Horus. I have greater matters on my mind.’ ‘Greater matters?’ Irritation marked the Warmaster’s flawless features again. ‘But Sanguinius…’ ‘Sanguinius will stand at Eternity Gate with tears in his eyes and acid in his heart, no matter what you and Erebus hope to accomplish at Signus Prime. Remember that, when your gambit there fails. Remember it when you face the Angel on the final day. Remember that I was the one who told you how it would really end.’ ‘What is a “greater matter” than the Angel, at this stage of the game?’ ‘Almost everything,’ Lorgar’s voice emerged from the cold air. ‘Ultramar. Fulgrim. Guilliman. Wars we can actually win. There are only two among us who would stand in defiance of the Angel’s wrath, Horus. Only two who would see him slain, once he fights with nothing left to lose. You are one. Angron is the other.’ Truth dawned behind the Warmaster’s eyes. ‘You’ve foreseen it. I hear it in your voice. And that’s why you strive so hard to keep him alive.’ Apparently an enraged Sang is very scary indeed...not an angel of hope but an angel of vengeance perhaps 1. Do you think Sanguinius deserves special status alongside Horus? Is Sang the Archangel Michael to Horus' Lucifer Morningstar? Or does that detract from Horus' special status? 2. Do you think it's a good idea to have Sang dispose of Ka'bandha at Signus and then face Daemon Angron at Terra? Seems to be what Fear to Tread and Betrayer are setting up? 3. Would you like it if BL confirms that Sanguinius does some significant damage to Horus before going down, i.e. a slighly less lop-sided curb-stomp than Collected Vision's take? Nice read! 1) Not special persae, but he has always been harped as quite possibly the most utterly-powerful of his brothers, given he fights with his all (maybe discounting Magnus' Psychic prowess, but this can be warded against). 2) Why not both? Would certainly be a really cool apex. Do Sanguinius and Angron have much interaction yet? I'd like to know what they think of eachother. 3) Yes. And I think he will - that is how I've always interpreted it. While fully outclassed at this point with Horus having the full power of the Chaotic Pantheon pumped into him, Sanguinius will have let go of all limits by this point and the battle would be absolutely titanic - albeit most likely brief. I imagine Horus using the words "This isn't even my Final Form." etc :P I think we'll also see Horus' raw fear of Sanguinius come into play, and it will be the moment that he overcomes this that he strikes him down. I also bet that'll he'll be hesitating to do so, seeing as it's another well documented fact that he tries to get him to defect one last time. I'm picturing Shounen-Anime level stuff here in my head in all honesty :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 OR here is an alternate view... Alan Bligh aluded to Sanguinius' wings being wholly part of the Emperors' intended design at the weekender. No mutation of interference of Chaos at all. He also said that he was made with a very specific purpose of shock & awe, with his legion being modeled on this too. If you want to send a particular message that the Emperor's justice descends from on high to those who cross him in a biblical fashion - you send the 9th and their Winged Lord... So, with this in mind - what if Sanguinius glory, grandeur and strength is all in the eye of the beholder? We know he has shown himself with altered appearanced depending upon who looks at him and what they might want to see, or what he wants them to see - much like his 'Father'. Maybe Sanguinius was a tool - made utterly loyal and without temptation to a fault only being almost swayed to Chaos at the threat of dooming his Legion, with only his self sacrifice being able to stop this, praying upon his selflessness. And also made to just appear like an ultimate deterrent to Heresy - no one wants to fight him, well, no one sane of mind (Angron...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blindhamster Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 1 I think there has always been the implication that sanguinius is special, there's a reason the lion and Guilliman were willing to place sanguinius as the 'emperor' during the secundus arc, they'd not follow eachother but would follow him. There's also a reason that his brief moment of rage has even the lion taking a step back at the end of pharos. That being said, I don't think he is necessarily 'better' than the rest, more that he inspires a level of trust and fear that all but horus probably didn't. 2 I think a fight between Daemon Angron and Sanguinius would be cool, even in old lore we know they face eachother down, they just didn't fight before. I am unsure if I'd like to see the back breaker thing happen to Angron though - probably not tbh. Sanguinius needs to be pretty battered by the time he faces horus, it's all part of the scene, it has to be clear to the reader that there is absolutely no hope, but he goes anyway. 3 I agree with Charlo, I think the actual fight needs to be painfully brief, but I'd like to see a lot of dialogue leading up to it. In terms of rules, I think sanguinius could be an interesting candidate for multiple profiles, his normal one would be him normally, perhaps with a Lemartes style rage mode. And then a 'has let everything go' version that is probably less tough but has absolutely nuts damage output (translating to a chink in big Hs armour) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenith Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 Apparently an enraged Sang is very scary indeed...not an angel of hope but an angel of vengeance perhaps He's both. He is the hope for the future and the embodiment of heavenly wrath. 1. Do you think Sanguinius deserves special status alongside Horus? Is Sang the Archangel Michael to Horus' Lucifer Morningstar? Or does that detract from Horus' special status? He already does. He is the only Primarch revered by the general Imperium at almost the level of the Emperor (Sanguinala). Horus was scared of, and felt inferior beside Sangy. Sanguinius was the best of them. As BA players, we've always known it, and it's why Horus has to destroy him. 2. Do you think it's a good idea to have Sang dispose of Ka'bandha at Signus and then face Daemon Angron at Terra? Seems to be what Fear to Tread and Betrayer are setting up? No. I think Ka'bandha has to come back. If they have Sanguinius fight Angron then it betrays the former fluff of Angron being too afraid to fight Sanguinius when he was angry. This was after Sanguinius fought and banished 9 or so blood thirsters (including kabahnda) back to back. Sanguinius is standing on the walls, and Angron approaches with his Bloodthirster honour guard, and tries to stare Sanguinius down. Sanguinius, in full rage mode with golden energy halo and death in his eyes looks back...and Angron turns tail and walks away, knowing he would not win. A RageSang /Daemon Angron fight would just be embarassing for WE players. Angry Guilliman alone doesn't die immediately, lasting a few minutes against Lorgar ascended AND Daemon Angron. If Daemon Angron cannot beat Guilliman convincingly, with help, then he stands no chance against even rage Sanguinius. 3. Would you like it if BL confirms that Sanguinius does some significant damage to Horus before going down, i.e. a slighly less lop-sided curb-stomp than Collected Vision's take? No. The whole point is that Horus offers Sanguinius one last chance, then kills him "with contemptuous ease". It has to be a curb stomp. Horus kills Sanguinius so hard that his grandchildren literally wake up screaming to it 10,000 years later, and it slowly drives them insane. Sanguinius has to be totally and utterly outclassed. Don't forget that by this point Horus has spent several thousand years in the hyperbolic time chamber realm of chaos fighting constantly against legions of daemons (Vengeful Spirit) to gain the power that he has, just to try and overcome both Sanguinius and the Emperor. If anything, as much as it pains me to say, Horus has to desecrate the angel to show the reader, and the Emperor, just how far he has fallen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 I didn't realize Sanguinius stares down Daemon Angron at the gate and causes him to run. I'm much happier with that and a re-match with Kha'banda for sure. Let Angron just go on a murder-rampage and maybe fight the Khan for a brief period or something. Maybe Khan and Dorn. Now that would be really awesome. How recently was Angron's Apotheosis before he fights Guilliman? It could be that he wasn't used to his new power yet etc? While I don't want a long fight with Sanguinius and Horus, I think there needs to be a bit of epic trading of blows before Horus offers him to come to his side, when Sanguinius refuses then he's just like: (Dragonabll Super Spoilers) And ends him in all but broken body. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JH79 Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 As i recall Angron was still "normal" when battling Guilliman with Lorgar... Guilliman's attack in Betrayer occured at a point where Lorgar was directing the song of chaos and Angron's ascension was put in jeopardy due to his interference. Guilliman was holding his own against Lorgar but when Angron joined he was fighting a losing battle and took a mounting number of injuries, if the fight had continued he would more than likely have been killed. As for all this talk of Sanguinius... holy pigging moly am i excited for Terra!!! Most of this lore is completly new to me with my exposure being mainly through BL's books and some of these depections of Sanguinius in full on beast mode have me salivating for ADB to be given the chance to handle him during the siege! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 I'm like 90% sure Sanguinius staring at Angron didn't cause Angron to run away. IIRC, Angron ordered the defenders of the Eternity Gate to surrender and Sanguinius stared at him, but didn't verbally respond. Angron shrugs and orders the siege to commence Angron vs Guilliman: is this before or after Angron prevented a Titan from crushing him? I don't remember exactly but thought Angron was whittling down Guilliman in their fight Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandlemad Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 Angron vs Guilliman: is this before or after Angron prevented a Titan from crushing him? I don't remember exactly but thought Angron was whittling down Guilliman in their fight He held up the titan on Armatura and then fought Guilliman on Nuceria, so some days or more likely weeks later. RE: Sanguinius vs Horus: I agree that it should be a beatdown but Sanguinius does make a slight chink in Horus' armour (either literally or metaphotically) which the Emperor then exploits. It doesn't have to be a matter of him getting in a solid blow to give it the appearance of being a duel between equals but he does something. The important and compelling thing about their duel to my mind isn't the matter of who's stronger or who can give the best account of themselves. It's not even the satisfaction of seeing Horus pull a classic villainous 'join me' thing and having it thrown in his face (which I usually love and have already seen brilliantly with both the Lion and the Khan). It's the fact that Sanguinius knew he didn't have a chance from the moment he teleported onto the Vengeful Spirit. Not in the way that Corax realises he doesn't have a chance against Angron on Isstvaan but in a primal bound-by-prophecy way. Like Macbeth after Macduff has revealed his birth. I want to see a glimpse into Sanguinius' thoughts as he, an immortal, realises that he is absolutely going to die and it will be at the hand of his brother. The old IA article for the Blood Angels covers it very well: It is known that Sanguinius was gifted with the power of foretelling, able to see visions of what lay ahead. His soul was pure, and the prophesies he spoke of inevitably came to be. It can thus be surmised that he knew full well he was going to his doom when he confronted the Warmaster, and yet he went without hesitation. Whether this act was prompted by fatalism or loyalty to the Emperor is a point debated by many Imperial theologians lacking in faith, however there is no doubt in the minds of the Blood Angels. They maintain that he walked into the lion's den out of duty, knowing full well what the outcome would be. That bit about fatalism vs loyalty is deeply interesting. It's that core heroic melancholy you get with the BA - that goldendark fading of the light - in its foundational moment. Standing at the gate is cool, getting a glancing blow on Horus is great, but getting this right is absolutely critical to Sanguinius's character and that of the BA for the next ten thousand years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 @sandlemad: thanks for the correction! Im at work so away from my books Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indefragable Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 I think what is previous canon is that Sanguinius slew multiple Bloodthirsters at the gate (I didn't realize it was 9!!!) and broke Ka-Bhanda's back over his knee. He and Angron have a staring contest and then Angron walks away (open to interpretation what that means). I full expect that second part to get retconned into a fight or something. Sanguinius gets dead pretty hard by Horus. That is established fluff. What we have to wait to see is exactly how it happens and as others have said, what account of himself, Sanguinius gives in the process. It has also been said that Sanguinius managed to carve a chink in Horus' armor which the Emperor then used to strike the neutralizing blow. Like the original Rocky, what makes Sanguinius such a BAMF is not that he beats Horus, but the fact that he manages to go 13 rounds with him at all. Horus gets T10 W10 with a re-rollable 2++ save and a re-rollable 2+ Feel No Pain....and Sangy still manages to cause an unsave Wound. If only his stats will suggest that! I think it's going to be pretty epic and a good match no matter what. It's not going to be over Round 1, but neither will it go 13 rounds. Sanguinius goes down in the 4th* * Listening to the audiobook of Vengeful Spirit. "The only way to kill a god is to become a god." -Horus on his plan to take down the Emperor ...so the fact that Sanguinius does any damage to god-like Horus shows just how much of a supreme BAMF he is. As for "special".....well, aren't all the Primarchs "special" in their own way? Daddy loves them all equally.... Hah. Just kidding. "Dear Angron, I know you want to be Spartacus and all, but I don't give a skaven's posterior what you think. I need you to be a tool in my grand vision. Love, The Emperor." What made Sanguinius "special" was: -combat prowess (to be shown/debatable?) -symbolism: literally a winged symbol of hope. That was part of his "thing" -respect from peers: as a professor once said "peer respect is the only respect that matters." If (leaving this open to interpretation/to be shown) Sanguinius is treated as special by his brothers, than there you have it. Horus clearly considered Sanguinius as something special, and arguably something more than others, so that's sayin' somethin'. Attempting to filter out my own bias. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 Sanguinius is a BAMF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indefragable Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 Sanguinius is a BAMF Slightly off-topic: Hidden Content I think I am most interested to know what Russ and Sanguinius thought of each other. As stated above, As stated above, some sources say that Angron and Horus are the only ones that would even dare to think about fighting Big S, but at the same time Russ's whole "thing" seems to be fearing no one and being the one designed to take down the others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fire Golem Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 Sanguinius is great, and I can't wait to read more about him in Angelus and future novels. He's not actually got that much written about him yet unfortunately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 Savin' the best for last! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indefragable Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 Sanguinius is great, and I can't wait to read more about him in Angelus and future novels. He's not actually got that much written about him yet unfortunately. Exactly! pretty surprising, actually. From A D-B: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/331358-so-why-lorgar/?p=4674225 http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/331358-so-why-lorgar/?p=4674316 Savin' the best for last! To be completely honest, that's what I am afraid of. There's been so little written so far, that I worry that they will pack too much awesome into a single novel and the BA/Sanguinius come out like Mary Sues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenith Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 So in looking for references, I stumbled upon this (below), found here (beware, popups). It claims to be from the second ed wargear book, but it isn't. An actual source would be great. Realm of Chaos perhaps? It was a short and bloody battle before the brazen throne of Horus. The blade of Sanguinius sang as it spun through the air, cutting and stabbing at the Warmaster's Armour. The armour of Horus bled where that blade touched it, for now the Warmaster and his armour were one, it had grown to be part of him. It was not for long that Horus endured this whirling dance. He lashed out clumsily. Lightning Claws arced through the air, catching upon bulkheads and doors, tearing great gashes and sending molten metal shrieking across the floor. Soaring over Horus' head, Sanguinius easily avoided those sluggish strokes, and eagerly sought out a weak spot in Horus' defenses. As he flew he spotted a damaged link of armour on the Warmaster's neck, and Sanguinius stabbed out with all his remaining strength. His blade lodged at once in the Warmaster's armour. Horus screamed more with anger than with pain, and reached out to strike the winged Primarch. Steel talons dripping with plasmic energy closed upon the winged Angel of Baal. Looks like there was more to the fight than I remembered. It's very much a Mountain vs Viper fight. I guess the desecration happened after Horus got his talon on Sangy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indefragable Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 Looks like there was more to the fight than I remembered. It's very much a Mountain vs Viper fight. I guess the desecration happened after Horus got his talon on Sangy. Xenith: you are all over citations! Boom! I imagine there's a whole bunch of Luke vs Vader/every-samurai-duel-ever dialogue, then a fight similarly to what you quoted, then Horus strikes a blow that mortally wounds Sang and drops him to his knees, more back and forth speech where Horus gives Sangy one last chance to turn to the dark side....their powers will heal the wound...and Sangy has some epic BAMF one-liner and then Horus gets [even more] pissed off and cuts Sang up into ribbons/spits on the body. ....but expanded into at least 3 chapters worth of writing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rafen IX Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 I think my brothers have said it all. Sanguinius is the Divine Protector and Wrathful Destroyer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blindhamster Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 But that doesn't necessarily mean he was better in a fight than his brothers, there are quotes that suggest Lorgar and horus thought he might be, but there are also scenes that suggest he was not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loesh Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 No offense but the idea that Angron would intentionally turn from a fight, one he would win or one that he would lose is laughable. The Emperor and every other Primarch could try to kill Angron at once, he would still try to fight them with a smile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkangilos Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 But that doesn't necessarily mean he was better in a fight than his brothers, there are quotes that suggest Lorgar and horus thought he might be, but there are also scenes that suggest he was not. The only scene I can think of that casts doubt is between him and Curze, and both make it obvious that neither are there to fight. Sanguinius wants to convert him, and Curze wants to piss Sanguinius off and tell him "the truth." Curze really just wants to be right. I get the feeling he is constantly just doing what he does because he wants vindication, which is why his last words were "death is nothing to vindication." Everything he does seems to be, "See! I was right!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rafen IX Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 No offense but the idea that Angron would intentionally turn from a fight, one he would win or one that he would lose is laughable. The Emperor and every other Primarch could try to kill Angron at once, he would still try to fight them with a smile. It's a very intriguing part of the siege. It could mean anything at this point. The only thing that is known is that Angron marches up to the walls and demands surrender. Sanguinius appears, gives hope to the defenders and stares at Angron. Angron eventually turns back to his lines. Wether humbled/pissed off/simply to order the attack.It definitely appears to give the defenders hope. One thing is for sure, it is said multiple times that Horus hated and feared Sanguinius over all his brothers. In his heart he believed Sanguinius would have been a better Warmaster. Both Guilliman and Jonson unanimously elected Sanguinius to Emperor Regent. Lorgar, the Prophet of Chaos believed none but Horus or Angron had a chance versus him. I wasn't even aware of how many bloodthirsters he fought on Terra! It's also interesting that the Blood Angels and Sanguinius have now already fought and become aware of the forces of Chaos, unlike a lot of the other legions at this point. As to the original questions. 1) With the idea that FW will be releasing further progressed timeline Daemon Primarchs. I think Sanguinius will be able to beat the current Horus but not a daemon Horus. 2) Sanguinius and Ka'Bhanda are practically set in stone. I've no idea if he will meet Angron, but I don't remember reading anything about that. 3) I hope they do keep the idea of Sanguinius weakening Horus, if they don't I will understand and it won't make his sacrifice any less noble for me. Sanguinius will also kick the ass of multiple Gal Vorbak at the siege, he is the doom of Argal Tal. There's a rather awesome scene in Auralian (Apologies on the spelling) where a golden warrior with a sword crackling with psychic fury drops from the heavens and proceeds to open a can of whoop ass on the traitors Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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