Brother Captain Ed Posted March 15, 2017 Share Posted March 15, 2017 If you guys listen to the Chapter Tactics podcast I appear on the latest episode to discuss GSIII Me and Pablo decide that Guilliman can break the 4th wall and takes Cato because he's protected by Plot armour :-P Do you have a link? I'm with Ed. Sicarius is a badass. Reckless maybe, but striving to do his best. It's kind of like the in-universe 'rumour' that the Ultramarines absorbed the lost legions. Some people in-universe see Sicarius vying for command of the chapter and assume malicious intent. Every marine should be fighting as hard as he can in every situation! Oh I don't doubt that he believes he is doing whats best for the Chapter. In fact, thats the exact reasoning he uses to justify his stance in Fall of Damnos. He believes it is in the chapter's best interest that he succeed Lord Calgar, not Agemman. He might be right. And it would mean that Calgar is not the leader of men we are told he is if all this is brewing and he's still very much alive and well. Either way, Cato is on Terra because he's the primarch's man now. Oh? What do you mean by that? I'm curious. By which part? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogWelder Posted March 16, 2017 Share Posted March 16, 2017 If you guys listen to the Chapter Tactics podcast I appear on the latest episode to discuss GSIII Me and Pablo decide that Guilliman can break the 4th wall and takes Cato because he's protected by Plot armour :-P Do you have a link? I'm with Ed. Sicarius is a badass. Reckless maybe, but striving to do his best. It's kind of like the in-universe 'rumour' that the Ultramarines absorbed the lost legions. Some people in-universe see Sicarius vying for command of the chapter and assume malicious intent. Every marine should be fighting as hard as he can in every situation! Oh I don't doubt that he believes he is doing whats best for the Chapter. In fact, thats the exact reasoning he uses to justify his stance in Fall of Damnos. He believes it is in the chapter's best interest that he succeed Lord Calgar, not Agemman. He might be right. And it would mean that Calgar is not the leader of men we are told he is if all this is brewing and he's still very much alive and well. Either way, Cato is on Terra because he's the primarch's man now. Oh? What do you mean by that? I'm curious. By which part? "Calgar is not a leader of men we are told he is" That part. You're starting to sound like a Cato loyalist yourself there, brother ;) (jk) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted March 16, 2017 Share Posted March 16, 2017 Sigh. Calgar is left on Macragge because there is still an invasion going on; Roboute leaves because he has to, so he leaves his most capable leaders (Calgar and Agemman) in charge of her defense. He takes elements of the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd companies with him to Terra, hence why Sicarius goes with him. There is no elevating of Sicarius in the slightest, it's simply a matter of function. He's not even mentioned doing anything heroic in the stories that follow. Calgar was also grievously wounded defending the shrine of the primarch; like, the only reason he's standing is because he didn't want to let Roboute down, otherwise he'd collapse on the spot. In addition to the above, it then makes perfect sense for him to stay put and heal while directing the cleansing of Ultramar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prot Posted March 16, 2017 Share Posted March 16, 2017 There's a great scene in that battle on Mcragge where Guilliman advances against Chaos forces, and he stops over Calgar's body. Calgar is down, on his back, grievously wounded and Guilliman looks down at him... Calgar opens an eye.... Guilliman moves on knowing he is alive. :) I admit I like -this- Guilliman more than I do the Primarch book one..... he's gone a bit from being almost 'preachy' to 'a man with a sense of purpose.' I love how he is in constant pain, and in constant disbelief at the disarray of the Imperium around him, but he hides it all very well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronDrake28 Posted March 16, 2017 Share Posted March 16, 2017 Aye, Prot. I agree completely. I also love that he hasn't lost his willingness to protect the little guys. Such as when he was going around 'healing' that nurgle plague. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Captain Ed Posted March 16, 2017 Share Posted March 16, 2017 If you guys listen to the Chapter Tactics podcast I appear on the latest episode to discuss GSIII Me and Pablo decide that Guilliman can break the 4th wall and takes Cato because he's protected by Plot armour :-P Do you have a link? I'm with Ed. Sicarius is a badass. Reckless maybe, but striving to do his best. It's kind of like the in-universe 'rumour' that the Ultramarines absorbed the lost legions. Some people in-universe see Sicarius vying for command of the chapter and assume malicious intent. Every marine should be fighting as hard as he can in every situation! Oh I don't doubt that he believes he is doing whats best for the Chapter. In fact, thats the exact reasoning he uses to justify his stance in Fall of Damnos. He believes it is in the chapter's best interest that he succeed Lord Calgar, not Agemman. He might be right. And it would mean that Calgar is not the leader of men we are told he is if all this is brewing and he's still very much alive and well. Either way, Cato is on Terra because he's the primarch's man now. Oh? What do you mean by that? I'm curious. By which part? "Calgar is not a leader of men we are told he is" That part. You're starting to sound like a Cato loyalist yourself there, brother (jk) Oh, sure. So, we're told that Calgar is both a puissant warrior and one of the greatest of the Lords of Ultramar. Because he is Lord Macragge in addition to being chapter master, he essentially holds two roles (that somewhat overlap) as part of his office: He is War Leader of the Ultramarines and he is the Feudal Lord of Ultramar. One of the first and greatest duties of a feudal leader is tending the line of succession. This is doubly true for the Lord of Ultramar since, as War Leader of a space marine chapter, his tenure could end at any time. We primarily think of a feudal succession in the hereditary sense (“An heir and a spare” as our ancestors in M2 would say), but the Ultramarine Chapter Master seems to choose his own successor by appointing that person to be Captain of the First Company. I’m not sure if I don’t remember, or if it’s unclear, but whether by tradition or actual “law” it appears to be the proper mechanism. Now, even if there is some sort of vote, or appointment by acclaim, or whatever, that allows the senior officers or the chapter collectively to effectively rebuke the previous chapter master’s wishes and appoint someone who is not the First Captain, it would stand to reason that the previous CM’s judgement was poor enough to be overruled. So we are left with uncomfortable possibilities about Calgar’s leadership. 1.) Calgar is right, Aggeman is the best choice, and Calgar is unaware of Cato’s ambition. If Calgar is blind to a major character trait in a man who is in his inner circle while Aggeman (also in his inner circle) is not, then it doesn’t speak well for Calgar’s leadership or political sense. 2.) Calgar is right, Aggeman is the best choice, and Calgar is aware of Cato’s ambition. If Calgar knows that Cato is doing more than merely pining for the post and yet does nothing, then he is actively setting up both his chapter AND his holdings for a potentially bitter split after his death. That, also doesn’t speak well for his leadership or judgement. 3.) Calgar is wrong, Aggeman is not the best choice, and Calgar doesn’t realize it. Not selecting the best man for the job is not only very un-Ultramarine, but again, indicates Calgar’s ability may not be as good as we are led to believe. 4.) Calgar is wrong, Aggeman is not the best choice, and Calgar does realize it but does nothing. Again, not only is that setting up the chapter and the realm for problems, but if there is any man in the whole of the Imperium who can break gently disappointing decisions to subordinates that were reached via reason, utility, and duty that man would be the Chapter Master of the Ultramarines. If Calgar can’t, or won’t, then what makes him such a good Lord Macragge?? 5.) Cato is actually Calgar’s choice to replace him and he hasn’t made it clear enough to avoid problems when the office becomes vacant. Again, it doesn’t speak well for his leadership or judgement. Now, it should be noted that I’m not out to bash on Calgar. I think possibility #3 is both most likely and least problematic for Calgar. After all, we are talking about a relatively young military prodigy and the veteran captain of a First Founding chapter’s first company. The difference in their ability is probably extremely narrow and there are many reasons why Calgar did what he did. Perhaps Aggeman used to be the clear choice but Cato has matured. Or maybe the experience of being forced to rebuild the First Company has left Aggeman more cautious than he once was. Who knows? Anyway, the future of the whole Imperium is now up in the air. Perhaps the Ultramarine Chapter Master will find himself as more of an administrative and local defensive role while his most talented officers and veterans flow out to Lord Commander’s Victrix Guard (an odd replay of the Dark Angel’s experiences at the end of the Heresy). Perhaps Marine 2.0 isn’t just internet bunk and the Ultras return to their regularly scheduled programming while Guilliman uses the new marines and Custodes for his personal campaigns. We shall see. And I DO like Cato! My Ultramarines proudly bear the colors of the Second Company. But I don’t dislike Aggeman. I’m just pointing out if there really is active jockeying between his First and Second Captains for his job, then Calgar bears a large part of the blame for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Captain Ed Posted March 16, 2017 Share Posted March 16, 2017 Sigh. Calgar is left on Macragge because there is still an invasion going on; Roboute leaves because he has to, so he leaves his most capable leaders (Calgar and Agemman) in charge of her defense. He takes elements of the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd companies with him to Terra, hence why Sicarius goes with him. There is no elevating of Sicarius in the slightest, it's simply a matter of function. He's not even mentioned doing anything heroic in the stories that follow. Calgar was also grievously wounded defending the shrine of the primarch; like, the only reason he's standing is because he didn't want to let Roboute down, otherwise he'd collapse on the spot. In addition to the above, it then makes perfect sense for him to stay put and heal while directing the cleansing of Ultramar. I think you're wrong here, Seahawk. You are right that he doesn't get screen time and nothing is done to "elevate" him. But he's the senior Ultramarine with the Primarch. That, automatically, makes him the commander of the Ultramarines who accompanied the Lord Commander to Terra. Including the many veterans that must have been drawn from the First Company while their Captain was not. Simply because there is no explicit narrative purpose, doesn't mean a thing doesn't exist. I think you'd be crazy to argue that that is not a HUGE honor and would not have fallen on someone who wasn't a cut above the already high standard of space marine captain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prot Posted March 16, 2017 Share Posted March 16, 2017 I don't know Ed... I mean let's look at how Guilliman thinks for a second here..... Guilliman is going on what could be a one way trip to terra. He is the king of 'plan b' and what if plan A went south, and Magnus/Tzeentch/Red Corsairs end the story right there on Huron's Black Fortress... then it's over. Ultramar is governed by who? Cato? Nope, he's dead too. It would all fall back on the shoulders of Calgar. Plus if you read "Angry Guilliman's" tweets we know he's sick of Cato kissing his butt and he thinks Calgar has height related issues. lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Captain Ed Posted March 16, 2017 Share Posted March 16, 2017 I don't know Ed... I mean let's look at how Guilliman thinks for a second here..... Guilliman is going on what could be a one way trip to terra. He is the king of 'plan b' and what if plan A went south, and Magnus/Tzeentch/Red Corsairs end the story right there on Huron's Black Fortress... then it's over. Ultramar is governed by who? Cato? Nope, he's dead too. It would all fall back on the shoulders of Calgar. Plus if you read "Angry Guilliman's" tweets we know he's sick of Cato kissing his butt and he thinks Calgar has height related issues. lol Umm...right?? I don't feel that is a rebuttal of my point. I never said that Cato should start picking curtains for the CM's office and that Calgar and Aggeman are chumps that Guilliman sidelined. I said and I quote: "The primarch marches to fire and battle...into the braying of the very dogs of hell. Ultramar's best follow." The crusade that leaves with Guilliman is clearly in terrible danger from the start and everyone knows it could be a one-way trip. (I think they even said something to that effect, but I don't have the book with me.) The Victrix Guard is clearly a task force and not a chapter deployment. Guilliman took as much of the chapter as he could without defenestrating the defense of the 500 Worlds and endangering the chapter's future. So Calgar stays (which is a clear choice due to his health). Aggeman is passed over (for whatever reason). And the Chapter Champion, recognized as the most dangerous warrior in the Ultramarines, after Calgar himself, leads the primarch's honor guard. I'm just not seeing a way to read it as anything else, barring the revelation of facts that were not included in GSIII. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prot Posted March 16, 2017 Share Posted March 16, 2017 I guess that's all there is to that then. Leadership wise I think from what I've read I'd imagine Guilliman isn't largely impressed with anyone right now, but Cato is mostly a champion type I think. I don't think he featured that much in the story. I actually expected more of him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronDrake28 Posted March 16, 2017 Share Posted March 16, 2017 I doubt Guilliman hates his chapter's leaders. Far from it. He's just not familiar enough with them yet. It's like he thought himself, they're strangers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prot Posted March 16, 2017 Share Posted March 16, 2017 I doubt Guilliman hates his chapter's leaders. Far from it. He's just not familiar enough with them yet. It's like he thought himself, they're strangers. I'm thinking bigger picture than that. I think it's pretty evident from the book he's very perturbed at the Imperium in general. And the Angry Guilliman reference is a joke from his Twitter account ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronDrake28 Posted March 16, 2017 Share Posted March 16, 2017 Ah yeah true, he definitely ain't a fan of the Imperium. He re-shuffled the entire cabinet of the High Lords of Terra after all haha. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted March 16, 2017 Share Posted March 16, 2017 Best turn down the fan-boyism there Ed, it's shining a bit too bright. ;) If they had written about him, then I could get more behind your view, but as it is I think it's just plain hard-biased. The Ultramarines chapter in entirety is embroiled in war and disease. They are fighting to reclaim and cleanse a relatively large empire by themselves. One man, not even one chapter master can best direct that effort even while he's in good health, much less as wounded as Calgar is. Thus, he'll want his next best leader with him to help guide the war effort: because Agemman stayed, that clearly means him. Sicarius is a good fighter; as above, he's a great Chapter Champion, but isn't a great leader, due to his hot-headed and rash behaviors, and it gets his brothers needless killed. Guilliman probably knew he'd be good to have along to fight their way to Terra, but not as a leader (which is, of course, de facto Guilliman). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogWelder Posted March 17, 2017 Share Posted March 17, 2017 Best turn down the fan-boyism there Ed, it's shining a bit too bright. If they had written about him, then I could get more behind your view, but as it is I think it's just plain hard-biased. The Ultramarines chapter in entirety is embroiled in war and disease. They are fighting to reclaim and cleanse a relatively large empire by themselves. One man, not even one chapter master can best direct that effort even while he's in good health, much less as wounded as Calgar is. Thus, he'll want his next best leader with him to help guide the war effort: because Agemman stayed, that clearly means him. Sicarius is a good fighter; as above, he's a great Chapter Champion, but isn't a great leader, due to his hot-headed and rash behaviors, and it gets his brothers needless killed. Guilliman probably knew he'd be good to have along to fight their way to Terra, but not as a leader (which is, of course, de facto Guilliman). Cato is quite the political animal as well tbh. Meeting with senators and politicians on Maccrage behind Calgar's back? Successfully turning nearly all of his company into devout Cato loyalists who believe he deserves to be the next chapter master? Knowing full well that Severus would be keeping an eye on him and taking measures to avoid leaking too much information? He is quite cunning. Reminds me of Caesar from Spartacus: Blood and Sand. Its part of why I love him. He's a very colorful character. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KhorneHunter57x Posted March 17, 2017 Share Posted March 17, 2017 Theoretical: Cato got the spotlight because he has a mini and rules, and Aggeman doesn't. For a more lore-based opinion of mine, consider the fate of Konor Guilliman - Roboute's adoptive father, who was killed as part of a coup on Macragge. Perhaps Guilliman sees a similarity between Cato's ego and the man who had Konor killed, and Guilliman wants to keep an eye on Cato. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Captain Ed Posted March 17, 2017 Share Posted March 17, 2017 Best turn down the fan-boyism there Ed, it's shining a bit too bright. If they had written about him, then I could get more behind your view, but as it is I think it's just plain hard-biased. The Ultramarines chapter in entirety is embroiled in war and disease. They are fighting to reclaim and cleanse a relatively large empire by themselves. One man, not even one chapter master can best direct that effort even while he's in good health, much less as wounded as Calgar is. Thus, he'll want his next best leader with him to help guide the war effort: because Agemman stayed, that clearly means him. Sicarius is a good fighter; as above, he's a great Chapter Champion, but isn't a great leader, due to his hot-headed and rash behaviors, and it gets his brothers needless killed. Guilliman probably knew he'd be good to have along to fight their way to Terra, but not as a leader (which is, of course, de facto Guilliman). Now now, I think that’s a terribly unfair assessment. Because I tend to like Cato more than I dislike him I must be fan boying?? At no time did I puff him up or speculate beyond what is immanently reasonable. Here’s the sum total of my claims about Cato in GS3: 1.) He’s the Chapter Champion and arguably the most skilled combatant in the chapter. This a matter of fluff that was presented elsewhere. I didn’t dream it up. 2.) He accompanied Guilliman on the Terra Crusade. That seems to be pretty factual. 3.) Doing so was an honor. This is somewhat speculative, but I don’t see how it could really be contested. The problem is that some people here seem to assume that Guilliman charging Calgar with doing his duty as Lord of Ultramar instead of going to Terra is somehow a DIShonor. I don’t think that’s the case. 4.) He is commander of the Victrix Guard. Well, he’s the HQ slot and senior officer on the trip, so that’s a pretty safe assumption. And that’s about it. I think he's the clear best choice to accompany Guilliman, but that's about the extent of any opinion I injected. All of this, mind you, is vastly more reasonable than Guilliman immediately playing politics with the personalities of people he has just met and just happening to agree with one's personal assessment of a situation that is deliberately unclear. It sounds less like I am fan boying and more that some folks think talking about Cato in a way that isn’t condemnatory is somehow exalting him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tranc Posted March 23, 2017 Share Posted March 23, 2017 I think 1) Aside from the Horus Hersey, there's a difference between the official-ness of what the design studio writes and what the Black Library authors write. While the codex entry for Sicarius only mention's him being heir apparent to Calgar as gossip, my recollection is the political intrigue wasn't made fact until one of Graham McNeil's books (Chapter's Due?), and then reinforced by Kyme's Damnos. Graham also needed Sicarius to be jerk and prosecute Uriel Ventris so he'd be banished. I like to think this is not the official Cato Sicarius. 2) Guilliman wanted to take back Ultramar, but had to leave for the good of the greater imperium. As Seahawk mentioned, he left his best leaders (Calgar, Aggeman) behind to ensure the task closest to his heart got completed. He took Cato along because the Honoured Guard is his personal bodyguard, so he took the finest swordsman. (And the Terran crusade already has Guilliman's leadership.) 3. Cato was chosen to accompany Guilliman instead of Aggeman because Cato has a model, and a terminator captain also wouldn't mesh well with Honoured Guard models. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogWelder Posted March 24, 2017 Share Posted March 24, 2017 What's the current state of Maccrage now btw? The book confirms that the brunt of the Chaos invasion has been defeated and the core planets have been cleansed. However the outer planets of Ultramar still had ongoing Chaos resistance by the time Guilliman decided to go back to Terra. Lexicanum says the invasion force retreated after Guilliman left for Terra. That would make sense as the reason Chaos was focusing so much on Ultramar was due to the presence of Guilliman. Also I hope there's a better relationship between the Ultramarines and the Eldar now. Yvraine and Guilliman seemed to be close (on a first-name basis and all) during their dialogue in the book and hopefully this hints at growing co-operation. The Eldar are arrogant but they would be a great asset as allies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronDrake28 Posted March 24, 2017 Share Posted March 24, 2017 Guilliman is still quite suspicious of the Eldar, he says himself that they're only working with him because they need to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lords of Preyspire Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 Chaps! It totally slipped my mind. Have we heard anything from the honour company in the gathering storm? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogWelder Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 Chaps! It totally slipped my mind. Have we heard anything from the honour company in the gathering storm? Not really. Its pretty disappointing. I'd like a story of how an Ultramarine in the Honour Company has to deal with all the deviations that the successor chapters have made from the original. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pr3Mu5 Posted March 29, 2017 Share Posted March 29, 2017 I know there's nothing in the book about this but I had a thought about Guilliman's armour. Between being awoken on Macragge and his arrival on Terra Guilliman has been in some almighty fights and as such his armour has taken a beating... but he cannot remove it. Is there any reference to a marines armour being repaired whilst still being encased inside? All the evidence I have seen is that power armour needs to be removed to be restored. Edit: spelling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronDrake28 Posted March 29, 2017 Share Posted March 29, 2017 In Master of Mankind, the tech-thralls of the Custodes spray a sort of foam that hardens, filling in cracks and damage on their armour. Assuming Cawl isn't an idiot, he will have realised that if the armour can't be removed he needs to repair it without taking it off Guilliman. He probably designed it to open up, or have it so that the top plates can be taken off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walter Payton Posted March 29, 2017 Share Posted March 29, 2017 In Master of Mankind, the tech-thralls of the Custodes spray a sort of foam that hardens, filling in cracks and damage on their armour. In the Bill King novels, Ragnar has some of this in his magical utility belt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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