77 replies to this topic

[Irbis]

DA did nothing in the heresy never existed. According to old fluff they were together with space wolves, racing to Terra, pausing for Russ to conquer a few world's. That is what is being retconned.

 

Right, so, doing nothing That's what I meant, old fluff had DA and SW do literally nothing of note after Prospero, just wander as if lost, see all the conspiracy theories about DA waiting for victor based on this.

 

Either way, the armor of space marines are taken care of, repaired, and blessed relics, and the chapters techmarines probably take care of those suits of armor.   I would also assume that after a battle, if the apothecaries go and reclaim the Gene seeds, the techmarines are probably out collecting those suits of armor to take back to the armory for repair and recyling of parts.   The only suits I would assume loss are the ones where they can't really reclaim and that would be the ones destroyed because planets were exterminated or lost due to losing a war, or sucked into the warp.   I think they would recover all they could after a battle, especially if they won.

 

I'd thing so too, which is why I find apothecary fluff so dumb. How you can have these priceless old relic suit if standard operating method is ruining them with a drill for nonsense reasons every time owner died instead of just taking the plate off? And it's slower, too, unless armour is made of wet paper I really don't see drilling through it being any faster than unlocking a few clasps...

[Rizara]

Yep, the drill is to drill through the black carapace which forms an armored she'll ove r the marines chest cavity, not the ceramite plate that is designed to take the brunt of small arms fire, some heat, and the vacuum of space. The fluff gets really bent out of shape when new writers come on board and don't have a clue about the science behind the already established lore and start making new assumptions that only create plot holes.

[Volt]

The Lexicanum lists Ultramarines at 250 000 (http://wh40k.lexican...e_Marine_Legion), so might the First have included 250 000 prior to the Third Rangdan Xeonicide (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Dark_Angels)?

 

 

Thanks to everyone for the information.

 

In terms of the Unforgiven's access to Dark Angels kit, let me just see whether I have the broad strokes right.

 

1) Obviously, chapters founded after the Second Founding are not technically equipped by their founding chapter. However, during the Second Founding, the Dark Angels Chapter might have withheld some of the First Legion's resources, with the consequence that subsequent chapters such as the Guardians of the Covenant, might have received some relics and assorted goodies directly from the Dark Angels?

 

2) The Dark Angels might have retained the capacity to produce some ancient patterns of armour, weapons and perhaps some vehicles somewhere on The Rock, which might account for the presence of at least some of these among comparatively younger chapters (Guardians of the Covenant, Disciples of Caliban etc.).

 

3) Young chapters might have discovered and re-purposed equipment from among the Fallen. 

 

Two questions:

I have recently discovered a mention that the First Legion might have secreted stockpiles of equipment across the Imperium prior to the Heresy (apparently the original source is The Wolf King, but I have not yet read it). If correct, chapters created after the Second Founding could have located some of those?

 

Only three Dark Angels successors are officially listed as derived from the Second Founding. Could the Guardians of the Covenant or the Persecutors of Darkness hail from this founding as well? I have it that conjuring connections to the Second Founding is a no-go unless GW makes it official.

Considering all Unforgiven Chapters have at least one Jetbike and exclusive Dark Angel-manufactured vehicles like the Dark Talon and what-not. The Rock definitely arms its successors itself, with the Admech playing a lesser role.

[Welcheren]

Might the Dark Angels also pass a handful of relics on to younger - that is, post-Second Founding - chapters?

 

The Liber Astartes hosts a wide array of interesting narratives about how younger chapters discovered Great Crusade relics in space hulks, star forts etc.

 

But that feels almost too serendipitous, unless we accept the whole stockpiles theory, which I like. But it feels like a mirror of and then the chapter found a space and hulk and wouldn't you believe it....

 

Simultaneously, if the First Legion divided all its Great Crusade equipment between the Second Founding chapters, later chapters have almost no chance of receiving some old toys. The Consecrators are a strange exception (obviously none of this applies to Dark Talons, given when their STC were discovered).

 

How do Heaven Fall blades among the Unforgiven fit into the scheme of things? If only the Dark Angels possess them, I assume that other chapters of the Unforgiven have to create counts-as stories of their own?

Edited by Welcheren, 14 March 2017 - 06:14 AM.

[MoK]

Are Dark Talons an STC or are they actually Unforgiven designed and built?

[Major_Gilbear]

Well, there is something else that occurred to me too:

 

In any successor DA Chapter that participates in the hunt, there must be those in the 1st and 2nd companies who already know what they need to. Given how tightly-held this knowledge is, it seems unlikely that the whole of a brand new Chapter's 1st Company is suddenly all inducted in very short order - that's not how it works.

 

Rather, I suspect that the Inner Circle and the bulk of the 1st and 2nd Companies in any new Unforgiven successor would be drawn from a variety of other DA geneseed chapters to guide and lead the new successor chapter (and carry the secrets of their primogenitors).

 

In this case, those Marines taking their equipment with them to the new Chapter seems logical, and might explain how it is that DA successors start out so well equipped.

 

Of course, that still begs the question about where this all comes from to begin with, and I would suggest that (armour marks notwithstanding) it is still being manufactured (albeit very slowly indeed) both by the DA themselves and perhaps also by some pacted Forge Worlds. Don't forget that part of the First Legion's background is their self-sufficiency, which is partly why they tend to prefer working on their own (even during the pre-heresy era) and why it seems reasonable that they were provided with the means to make their own kit (because the pact with Mars hadn't been made by the Emperor yet).

[Welcheren]

Are Dark Talons an STC or are they actually Unforgiven designed and built?

 

My bad. You are correct. I was thinking of the Nephilim Jetfighter (http://wh40k.lexican...ilim_Jetfighter).

 

 

Of course, that still begs the question about where this all comes from to begin with, and I would suggest that (armour marks notwithstanding) it is still being manufactured (albeit very slowly indeed) both by the DA themselves and perhaps also by some pacted Forge Worlds. Don't forget that part of the First Legion's background is their self-sufficiency, which is partly why they tend to prefer working on their own (even during the pre-heresy era) and why it seems reasonable that they were provided with the means to make their own kit (because the pact with Mars hadn't been made by the Emperor yet).

 

This makes so much sense.

[rendingon1+]

I have a question of my own:

Do Dark Angels use older (other than VI and VII) marks of armour? I can't recall any official art with DA being equipped with mk4 or whatever and yes, I know that popularity of older marks is connected with plastic/resin HH stuff. However, curiously I've never seen people modelling their DA using mk IV. Why is that?

[Major_Gilbear]

I have do some Mk4 in my force (not painted yet), but the truth is that getting proper and good-looking mk4 parts has always been quite difficult until BaC came along. Even then, I suspect that most DA players just decided to do a HH-era force rather than add to their existing army.

 

Similarly with mk3 armour until BoP arrived, although previously mk3 parts were even rarer (or FW only). I don't know if I'm going to add much mk3/mk2 for my 5th Company DA though - and if I do, it's likely to be characters and veteran sergeants I think (and those may even be incomplete suits). Partly it's down to how I want the Company heraldry applied to the models, partly down to physically fitting robes/tabards onto the models, and partly down to wanting my 40k stuff to look more distinct from the 30k stuff.

 

However, fluff-wise, yes the DA do use older marks of armour. In fact, the Consecrators use older marks exclusively, and much of it is thought to have been handed down to them by the DA directly at the Chapter's inception.

[jlmb_123]

 

 

However, fluff-wise, yes the DA do use older marks of armour. In fact, the Consecrators use older marks exclusively, and much of it is thought to have been handed down to them by the DA directly at the Chapter's inception.

 

I've always wondered why. We all think older armour looks super-cool but would a Space Marine Chapter be all that pleased to be given armour that's been sat in the cupboard for 10,000 years, regardless of it being symbolic, when they could have been equipped by the Mechanicum with mostly new stuff? And why do they, apparently,  have a bunch of the DA's relics?

 

"Here, have armour that's less effective at protecting you than what you could otherwise have, then look after all of our most important stuff by taking it into battle with you. But don't you go losing any of it, now!"

[Brother dean]

Well technically...   That armor that is in the cupboard for 10k years is better made metallurgically than the fresh from the forges stuff.  That said, there isn't any that have sat in the cupboard for 10k years, it is a set that has been used and repaired and the workmanship of the repairs has brought the effectiveness of the old armor down to the level of the new armor...

 

This is the Grim Darkness of the future...  Old things last better than new things...

Edited by Brother dean, 14 March 2017 - 04:06 PM.

[GreyRavenC]

 

 

 

However, fluff-wise, yes the DA do use older marks of armour. In fact, the Consecrators use older marks exclusively, and much of it is thought to have been handed down to them by the DA directly at the Chapter's inception.

 

I've always wondered why. We all think older armour looks super-cool but would a Space Marine Chapter be all that pleased to be given armour that's been sat in the cupboard for 10,000 years, regardless of it being symbolic, when they could have been equipped by the Mechanicum with mostly new stuff? And why do they, apparently,  have a bunch of the DA's relics?

 

"Here, have armour that's less effective at protecting you than what you could otherwise have, then look after all of our most important stuff by taking it into battle with you. But don't you go losing any of it, now!"

 

 

That's just the thing about 40K. The level of technology actually degrades instead of improving, so those relics are superior to their newer counterparts. But lets assume that in the time it takes to manufacture one suit of Mk4 armour you could get 5 suits of Mk7 (fictive numbers). Building the newer suits takes too much time already, so they wont bother with the older suits, especially if you have to keep all those chapters supplied with gear. So the few suits are given to senior personel/veterans, for the extra protection and for a better chance of returning their valued gear.

 

Edit: Ninja Dean

Edited by GreyRavenC, 14 March 2017 - 04:18 PM.

[Welcheren]

Just to keep track:

 

I am completely on-board with the superiority of the older armour.

So far the overall argument - in broad strokes - is that if the Dark Angels supplied the Consecrators (including the unfortunately case of Corpulax) with older armour, they were able to do so because the Rock retains the necessary production capacity... i.e. not because the Dark Angels have been alternately fielding, repairing and storing the arsenal of armour that is ultimately gifted to the Consecators.

Edited by Welcheren, 14 March 2017 - 04:24 PM.

[rendingon1+]

 

 

 

 

However, fluff-wise, yes the DA do use older marks of armour. In fact, the Consecrators use older marks exclusively, and much of it is thought to have been handed down to them by the DA directly at the Chapter's inception.

 

I've always wondered why. We all think older armour looks super-cool but would a Space Marine Chapter be all that pleased to be given armour that's been sat in the cupboard for 10,000 years, regardless of it being symbolic, when they could have been equipped by the Mechanicum with mostly new stuff? And why do they, apparently,  have a bunch of the DA's relics?

 

"Here, have armour that's less effective at protecting you than what you could otherwise have, then look after all of our most important stuff by taking it into battle with you. But don't you go losing any of it, now!"

 

 

That's just the thing about 40K. The level of technology actually degrades instead of improving, so those relics are superior to their newer counterparts. But lets assume that in the time it takes to manufacture one suit of Mk4 armour you could get 5 suits of Mk7 (fictive numbers). Building the newer suits takes too much time already, so they wont bother with the older suits, especially if you have to keep all those chapters supplied with gear. So the few suits are given to senior personel/veterans, for the extra protection and for a better chance of returning their valued gear.

 

Edit: Ninja Dean

 

Actually there are some chapters (I mean Red Scorpions and Minotaurs) that somehow have hundreds of Mk4 not to mention other older armour types.

Also I don't think that GA giving old equipment to Consecrators and saving none for themselves was thought over by GW. I mean, MK4 at the beginning of Horus Heresy was most common type in all the Legions AND according to Fallen Angels there were also MK4 production facilites on Caliban/Caliban system. So...

[GreyRavenC]

 

Actually there are some chapters (I mean Red Scorpions and Minotaurs) that somehow have hundreds of Mk4 not to mention other older armour types.

 

Also I don't think that GA giving old equipment to Consecrators and saving none for themselves was thought over by GW. I mean, MK4 at the beginning of Horus Heresy was most common type in all the Legions AND according to Fallen Angels there were also MK4 production facilites on Caliban/Caliban system. So...

 

 

Well, you just said that Mk4 was the most common type before the Heresy. It's not unreasonable to have enough in storage to outfit a couple of Chapters with those Marks. If I recall correctly, the Minotaurs recieved the best goodies the Empire has to offer, why would they have hundreds of suits of Mk4 if Mk7 is superior to the former?

 

Who said that the DA saved none of the suits for themselves? 

 

 

We have to keep in mind that GW wrote most fluff concerning armour before the flood of release the last 2 years. Modelwise, acces to older marks of armour was limited, since only Forgeworld had them available. What better way to sell 5 or 10 suits by calling them Relic armour, so they won't be out of place in your army? That way you had a reason to actually buy such an expensive kit for your Honour Guard/Command squad. For all we know, they might view Mk7 as superior now, since we have so many of the old marks easily available now.

[Major_Gilbear]

@ jimb_123:

 

Older is not worse, and newer is not always more advanced. Not in 40k at least.

 

Some improvements are made to the wargear over time, but often they are changes which reflect ease/speed of manufacture, nature of use/demands upon the equipment, and ease/speed of repairs. In 40k knowledge is jealously-guarded, and is passed on (if at all) so grudgingly, that over time it is simply lost - hence why the Mechanicus' ultimate Holy Grail is to find a fully-working STC archive system.

 

For example, even though they were very powerful and effective, Volkite weapons took too long to make, and were too difficult to maintain. The simpler but highly effective boltguns were put into service instead to make up the shortfall in demand, and they quickly became the default weapon as they were quicker and easier to make and maintain.

 

Similarly with armour, Mk1 was only a partial suit, Mk2 was flexible and permitted good manoeuvrability but wasn't suited to the demands placed upon it, Mk3 offered the best protection but was time consuming to make and consumed a lot of power. Mk3 was also heavy (an important logistical concern when you have a couple of million Space Marines to transport), and parts were tricky to replace and/or field repair. Mk4 was an improvement in many of these areas, but didn't offer quite as much protection from the front as the mk3. And so on.

 

Ultimately, as manufacture of the older suits ceases or dwindles, they become rarer and rarer - they eventually become status symbols, and are carefully repaired, re-built, re-worked, and embellished by the Chapter's Techmarines and artisans. Therefore, to be presented with such a suit is a great honour.

 

 

As for why the successors might be given DA relics... Well they also receive DA geneseed, DA mentorship, DA personnel, and ultimately join the DA in the hunt for the Fallen. Passing on Relics is not just a sign of trust and a display of the bond between the Chapters, but also presents them with powerful weapons with which to hunt the Fallen and reminds the Chapter's Inner Circle of their sworn duties.

[SickSix]

I plan to gift my DA successors a relic; am torn between a reward for performance in battle or a psuedo-bribe to remind them where their loyalties should lie.

[Volt]

Also going by Deathwatch mechanics, MK IV is actually one of the worst armor marks and has incredibly thin limb armor with little benefit, which might explain why so few still use it. The older marks that still have relevancy are really just Mark III (serious up-armoring and dramatically increases the strength of the wearer) and MK VI (super stealth). MK II is semi-respectable and MK V is on a "you're wearing it cause you've got nothing else" basis.

[Welcheren]

On a completely selfish note, I am happy that this discussion has given me reasons to assume the Guardians of the Covenant might well sport relic kit, despite not being a Second Founding chapter... probably not, anyway.

 

@SickSix... probably both; especially if Interrogator Chaplains are present: "Nice military performance you have going here... I'd be real shame in anything happened to blunt your resolve."

[Irbis]

 

That's just the thing about 40K. The level of technology actually degrades instead of improving, so those relics are superior to their newer counterparts. But lets assume that in the time it takes to manufacture one suit of Mk4 armour you could get 5 suits of Mk7 (fictive numbers). Building the newer suits takes too much time already, so they wont bother with the older suits, especially if you have to keep all those chapters supplied with gear. So the few suits are given to senior personel/veterans, for the extra protection and for a better chance of returning their valued gear.

 

Is it? GW fluff all but states VII is equal to old marks in pretty much everything, while beating most of them by being all-rounded without their weaknesses. It might not have strong front plate of III, but it has none of its weak spots and logistical problems. It's far less expensive than IV for 97% of the capability even if it doesn't have some of the fancier parts. It might have slightly worse sensors than VI but offers better protection and superior compatibility. Think T-34 vs Panther.

 

Then there is Mk VIII that is called everywhere the best mark, ever. Best sensors, best armor protection, especially of head, best mobility, to the point that the most elite of all marines (Death Watch) doesn't use IV, doesn't use VI, but prefers to give their veterans all VIII, unless they opt for their old, customized suits.

 

Remember, technology =/= good. If it was true, then pointlessly over-engineered, expensive, hard to repair Third Reich tanks would have won the war. There might be some degradation in technology (though I do subscribe to the theory Mechanicus actually does progress, 10K years of research and STC findings had to work) but the fact is, 10K years of field experience, refining, and trials will give you much less complicated, cheaper, better covering armour as you slowly eliminate kinks, change shape of plates, reinforce certain weak spots, eliminate interference in sensors. Techmarines are not idiots, I'd think if there is advancement you can figure out in a decade, never mind 10K years, they would find it and share with other techmarines...

[jlmb_123]

@ jimb_123:

 

Older is not worse, and newer is not always more advanced. Not in 40k at least.

 

Some improvements are made to the wargear over time, but often they are changes which reflect ease/speed of manufacture, nature of use/demands upon the equipment, and ease/speed of repairs. In 40k knowledge is jealously-guarded, and is passed on (if at all) so grudgingly, that over time it is simply lost - hence why the Mechanicus' ultimate Holy Grail is to find a fully-working STC archive system.

 

 

I used to be on board with this argument and think it was awesome but I think GW have caught themselves in a bubble. If MkIV armour is superior and the Dark Angels had enough to equip the Consecrators, why did they leave it ten thousand years to give it to a new Chapter and not use it themselves? This struck me the first time I read about the Consecrators.

 

 

 

 

That's just the thing about 40K. The level of technology actually degrades instead of improving, so those relics are superior to their newer counterparts. But lets assume that in the time it takes to manufacture one suit of Mk4 armour you could get 5 suits of Mk7 (fictive numbers). Building the newer suits takes too much time already, so they wont bother with the older suits, especially if you have to keep all those chapters supplied with gear. So the few suits are given to senior personel/veterans, for the extra protection and for a better chance of returning their valued gear.

 

Is it? GW fluff all but states VII is equal to old marks in pretty much everything, while beating most of them by being all-rounded without their weaknesses. It might not have strong front plate of III, but it has none of its weak spots and logistical problems. It's far less expensive than IV for 97% of the capability even if it doesn't have some of the fancier parts. It might have slightly worse sensors than VI but offers better protection and superior compatibility. Think T-34 vs Panther.

 

 

Precisely. The "science" has changed in the fluff but not the explanation.

[Major_Gilbear]

Hmm, let me try and be clearer:

 

It's not so much that the armour has improved much (technologically-speaking), but rather that the design has been adapted over time to suit the changing needs of the Marines.

 

Don't forget that originally, the armour wasn't designed for Marine vs Marine combat until the Heresy broke out - that was a big driver behind many of the later changes (i.e., modularity, ease of repair, and less maintenance required) that went beyond merely ease and speed of manufacture, or mobility of the wearer, etc.

 

Therefore, whilst Mk8 is the culmination of this design titivation, it still a direct descendant of the Mk4 armour.

 

Where certain considerations are not a concern, for example complexity of manufacture or time taken to produce, the actual protection provided by the different armour marks is broadly similar with only Mk3 standing out notably.

 

Now, why might certain marks be regarded differently by Marines?

 

> Mk2-3 hark back to the early Great Crusade.

 

> Mk4 was designed at the height of the Imperium's glory and prosperity.

 

> Mk6 was designed to improve smoothness of motion, mobility, and wearability over Mk4. Some chapters value this especially.

 

> Mk7 was designed to be robust and modular, with additional armour plating to cover external auxiliary armoured cabling. It is most cross-compatible with Mk6, but can accept varying numbers of components from older marks. It was also worn by Loyalists in the defence of Terra, and is therefore associated strongly with that event.

 

> Mk8 is the most robust design, but sacrifices some modularity with earlier marks. It's rare due to being the only post-Heresy design, and it's relative rarity means that being awarded a suit is regarded as a special privilege.

 

The Deathwatch's issuing of Mk8 is as much a reward for the participating Marines who join as it is a leveller/unifier of the many disparate Chapters.

 

Even though this is hardly the most exhaustive description of the history of the armour marks, hopefully it helps to better explain why there is a mix, and why being given an older suit (Mk3 or Mk4 typically) is a seen as an honour.

[Darkn3ssF4lls]

Welcome to the Rock, I am glad to see a fellow Guardian. I hope your cleptomania is less then mine and your ability to paint much quicker .

[Irbis]

Hmm, let me try and be clearer:

 

It's not so much that the armour has improved much (technologically-speaking), but rather that the design has been adapted over time to suit the changing needs of the Marines.

 

Don't forget that originally, the armour wasn't designed for Marine vs Marine combat until the Heresy broke out - that was a big driver behind many of the later changes (i.e., modularity, ease of repair, and less maintenance required) that went beyond merely ease and speed of manufacture, or mobility of the wearer, etc.

 

I am still not convinced. Mobility, ease of repair or maintenance, etc, are valuable regardless of opponent. Against, say, tyranids, strong frontal plate of III might be relatively useless while lack of mobility or slow moving limbs might cost you your life. Don't forget traitor astartes are rare, too, vast majority of opponents are the same types as during great crusade (orks, rogue humans, random assorted smaller xeno species) so requirements couldn't have changed that much, especially seeing great crusade saw a lot of astartes-like opponents.

 

To me, the answer why a marine might have a bit of older armour in his new model is simple - more mystically oriented chapters treat it like continuity of the wearers/tradition, more practically oriented ones replace damaged parts only giving uneven look after some time, not because there is anything special in them. Same way how in WW2 you might for example see T-34 with wheels of 3 different types, with turret and gun swapped for new 85 mm anti-tank gun, plus new engine, despite the hull being still the same 1941 model that saw majority of the war. In fact, tanks, especially on Soviet side, are good analogue of power armour as they often survived their users (or were disabled, the crew being given new tank and old one being sent to factory for refit to useful condition) slowly accumulating all the newest parts replacing original stuff as damage took its toll...

 

By the way, forge world decided to throw another curve-ball in the PA lore and now all PA marks are STC designs (despite obvious question who the hell needed 8 foot tall armour pre-30K), to a degree that in HH books a lot of relics are pieces of DAoT armour plugged into astartes armour lego style

[Welcheren]

Welcome to the Rock, I am glad to see a fellow Guardian. I hope your cleptomania is less then mine and your ability to paint much quicker .

 

Hail Brother! Thanks for the warm welcome.

 

Cleptomania?

 

 

 

 

@Irbis: By the way, I find your comparisons with Soviet tanks exceptionally helpful.

 

As I said in the OP, the Novamarines were my introduction to 40K, and I adored the fluff about how Second Founding chapters owned numerous relics (especially the Novamarines). This become a (minor) fluff obstacle for me when I began the long process of gravitating to the Dark Angels about a year ago. The Guardians of the Covenant appeal very powerfully to me, but they are not (probably) Second Founding.

 

Reading the argument thus far, vast arsenals of relics do not not automatically convey a (fluff) advantage (well, at least in terms of Power Armour).

 

Anyway, carry on.

Edited by Welcheren, 16 March 2017 - 04:26 PM.