Last Of The Serrated Suns

[CrimsonSunde]

So I had a question but I'm not really sure if I was assuming right.

For the RoW, Las of the Serrated Suns, it says all infantry must arrive from Deep striking drop pods, teleportation deep strike, or be inside a flyer. 

For this reason I assume we can not use ashen circle or any other units with jump packs unless we stuff them into a pod or a flyer right?

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

They are jump infantry.

[NoLifeKing]

They are jump infantry.

Exactly, because even tho they have overlapping rules, Infantry and Jump Infantry are considered as two different model types.

[Memento Of Prospero]

No, jump infantry also count as infrantry. It's clearly written.

[Lord Asvaldir]

...and yet again here we are back at this age old argument over whether jump infantry are their own unique unit type, or just an infantry unit type with a few extra rules. That question is hardly going to be resolved until GW finally addresses it in a future faq. For the purposes of the RoW though, I'd say yes you can include jump infantry since they can deep strike, but that's just my opinion. 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

They are jump infantry not infantry so it doesn't matter.

[SkimaskMohawk]

"Unlike most other unit type categories, ‘Jump’ is not a classification in and of itself. Instead, you’ll find it occurs before another category – commonly Infantry, sometimes Monstrous Creatures and perhaps, rarely, other things. Jump units therefore share two sets of rules, the Jump unit rules, and those of their base type. Jump Infantry would, for example, follow the rules for Jump units and Infantry."

 

Jump infantry are in fact infantry. The key phrases are:

• not a classification in and of itself
• jump units share two sets of rules

They even explain that Jump infantry follow the rules for both Jump and Infantry.

 

 

As for jump infantry being allowed thematically, the fact they specified teleport deepstrike seems to be an indicator of no.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

You have to combine the term with infantry or monstrous creature then you have the unique type.

[SkimaskMohawk]

That's not how it works. In the rules there is no "Jump infantry", "Jump Monstrous Creature", or "Jump Beast" unit types. Jump infantry are infantry that additionally have the jump rules. It literally tells you this 

[Withershadow]

Jump is a subtype of Infantry, much like Immobile is a subtype of Artillery in the Age of Darkness.

[NoLifeKing]

I can understand the argument when its put that way

And i so i have to agree with SkimaskMohawk, as per RaW the jumpers follow rules of both jump units and infantry, therefore they would have to deepstrike by teleport, drop pod or be delivered by a flyer. I would however argue for the sake of jump infantry being allowed in the army, just as long as they deepstrike via rule provided by the jump rules. Just call it teleporting, unless teleport deepstriking or teleporting in general is clarified in the rules somewhere.

[Memento Of Prospero]

They are jump infantry not infantry so it doesn't matter.

 

You go ahead and take out that rule book you don't seem to own and read the entry.

 

I can understand the argument when its put that way

 

And i so i have to agree with SkimaskMohawk, as per RaW the jumpers follow rules of both jump units and infantry, therefore they would have to deepstrike by teleport, drop pod or be delivered by a flyer. I would however argue for the sake of jump infantry being allowed in the army, just as long as they deepstrike via rule provided by the jump rules. Just call it teleporting, unless teleport deepstriking or teleporting in general is clarified in the rules somewhere.

 

Jump infantry doesn't teleport, terminators with transponders do, that's the problem with the rule as written. Technically, a flyer that can hold jump infantry could work. Like a glorious thunderhawk.

You have to combine the term with infantry or monstrous creature then you have the unique type.

 

Open that rulebook you dont seem to own and look. It's infantry, and it is explicite.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

A lot of people agree with my PoV for whatever reason. I understand the counter view and it makes sense too. From RAI PoV I see it as a separate class not a sub class hence my own reasoning if you will.

[Memento Of Prospero]

A lot of people agree with my PoV for whatever reason. I understand the counter view and it makes sense too. From RAI PoV I see it as a separate class not a sub class hence my own reasoning if you will.

 

there is no way to RAI this. Open your book and read the line. It's not that difficult.

[Withershadow]

RAI is too subjective especially when faced with clear and unambiguous language. Most people never read the rulebook and just go off their half-understood impressions from watching other people play and stumbling through games themselves. Your reasoning amounts to "Nuh uh".

 

As for teleporting or tunneling or freefalling with Jump packs, the rules don't really make that distinction in any way. All methods are just Deep Strike, it's really the fluff/mental imagery that imposes any real restriction. If playing a mission in a subterranean stronghold, you'd be hard pressed that a Fire Raptor's orbital descent Deep Strike is equivalent to a Hades drill's Deep Strike. Although I know at least one person on this forum that would argue that very thing.

[NoLifeKing]

 

 

Jump infantry doesn't teleport, terminators with transponders do, that's the problem with the rule as written. Technically, a flyer that can hold jump infantry could work. Like a glorious thunderhawk.

 

 

I get it that the fluffy idea of jump infantry deep striking isn't about teleport, I get that.  But for the sake of RaW and i would be so bold as to claim that RaI, Nothing prevents jump infantry deep striking counting as "teleporting" as the rule in the rite of war demands that you do if you lack a transport.

[SkimaskMohawk]

What would be the point of buying empyrite on thallax then if you can just choose to teleport deepstrike?

 

Are you then going to allow assault marines and the like to deepstrike their way into zone mortalis games?

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

There could be a big ceiling hole or even rupture.

[NoLifeKing]

What would be the point of buying empyrite on thallax then if you can just choose to teleport deepstrike?

 

Are you then going to allow assault marines and the like to deepstrike their way into zone mortalis games?

Depends, in fluffy occasion, i wouldn't. In a more competitive setting i would.

 

But Zone Mortalis is not the entirety of the game, and the rite of war isn't designed for Zone Mortalis. So i dont really understand what that argument is supposed to stand for, as i dont see how you should give a fluffy justification for regular drop pods, or dreadclaws(when the scenario isn't about ship boarding, as dreadclaws were designed for that. So the whole rite of war is pretty weird if you start going down that road.

 

But as i was re-reading the restrictions on the rite of war, it doesn't talk about infantry having to deep strike via teleporting(if they can't be transported), but it simply demands that the units must enter the board via ANY teleportation means, which is imo quite clear distinction on who can deep strike and who doesn't and i have to say that in this case i am heavily against jump marines "teleporting" onto the battlefield.

 

[Withershadow]

What would be the point of buying empyrite on thallax then if you can just choose to teleport deepstrike?

 

Are you then going to allow assault marines and the like to deepstrike their way into zone mortalis games?

I've seen at least one poster here argue this, yes, that per rules mode of deep strike is irrelevant. So Fire Raptors can Deep Strike into subterranean tunnels!

[SkimaskMohawk]

Oh I agree, RaW there's only one type of deepstrike.

 

This is one of the times where raw clearly goes against rai though

[ChainMachete]

The basic rule book says "... 'Jump' is not a classification in and of itself. Instead, you'll find it occurs before another category - commonly Infantry ... Jump units therefore share two sets of rules, the Jump unit rules, and those of their base type. Jump Infantry would, for example, follow the rules for Jump units and Infantry." It also says "Jump units have the Bulky and Deep Strike special rules."

 

The Serrated Suns rules say "All infantry units in the army must deploy via Deep Striking Drop Pod, by teleportation if such an option is available or be transported inside a Flyer that has sufficient Transport capacity to carry them."

 

Infantry is clearly a unit type, but Jump isn't. Jump Infantry is a classification for units that inherit rules from Infantry but also gives them rules from the Jump trait. Using the analogy of object-oriented programming, Infantry is a concrete class, Jump is a trait, interface or abstract class, which makes Jump Infantry a concrete class that extends the Infantry class and implements the Jump trait. Infantry and Jump Infantry are therefore two distinct types or unit classifications. So an Ashen Circle unit is a type of Jump Infantry unit and it is a type of an Infantry unit (in that it inherits behaviour from it's Infantry super-class), but from rules of type identity it's actual classification is still Jump Infantry (Infantry.class.equals(JumpInfantry.class) == false).

 

Ashen Circle have the Deep Strike special rule from their Jump trait. Now, except for Thallax (where it's called out specifically in their special rules, but that's just for Thallax, not something that should be applied to everything with the Deep Strike special rule), unless I'm playing a Zone Mortalis game, teleportation is just a fluff thing. So I could say that the Ashen Circle have the teleportation gadgetry built into their jump packs, or perhaps they are so corrupted by chaos (Dark Channelling from Zardu) that they can just teleport in from the warp daemon-style.

 

Either way I think you can argue RAW or RAI that Ashen Circle or Assault Marines should be allowed in the Serrated Sun rite. Build a story round it, perhaps give them Dark Channelling and your opponent would have to be a poor sport to complain about it.

[CrimsonSunde]

I appreciate everyone's opinions on my question. It seems I should discuss this with my local group to see what they say. Usually we don't play zone mortalis so I'm probably going to argue the point that my jump pack destroyers (bad or not a friend made them for me so I want to use them) can deepstrike them. If we do zone mortalis I don't intend to use this rite of war.

[NoLifeKing]

I appreciate everyone's opinions on my question. It seems I should discuss this with my local group to see what they say. Usually we don't play zone mortalis so I'm probably going to argue the point that my jump pack destroyers (bad or not a friend made them for me so I want to use them) can deepstrike them. If we do zone mortalis I don't intend to use this rite of war.

Your decision is legit.