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Why free rules might be a bad idea


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#226
Sugarlessllama

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@RandomMarine "Some men just want to watch the world burn". But seriously, in game design there are several different types of player (Timmy, Jimmy, and Spike. Google it, it is worth a read.). And one of those player types (Spike) is more lovingly known as the WAAC player (Win At All Costs). WAACs love 40K. Why? Because GW makes bad rules, and these bad rules are often written to support the purchase of certain models. In other words, in 40K you can pay to win. Spike can run three riptides and a metric ton of Eldar Scatterdoom bikes in an 1850 tournament and stomp faces all the way to the final table. He is not there to make friends. He is not there to forge a narrative. 

 

Unless of course that narrative is them winning and feeling really smug about it.

 

We all know that guy/gal. We all have played them in the past and walked away annoyed. And that guy/gal does not care about the lore. But they do spend money. Because they will always have to have the new broken hotness, even if it means selling blood to get it.  


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#227
RandomMarine

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That guy their is always one or two in any group. My play group is very much beer and takeaway situation but we can all bring the cheese and we x-play 40k and HH with 40k list suffering the low HH 25% rules, the alternate d weapon rules and CAD +1 formation max.

#228
Servant of Dante

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Actually, WAAC is a poor description of the Spike player psychographic imo, but that's off topic. Couldn't help mentioning it though . . .

#229
Captain Idaho

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GW cares more about the narrative than anyone as that's what JJ and crew have been pushing for years. They don't actually seem to care or understand there are WAAC players who buy the recent hotness because they can wipe the floor with folk.

As such, I think losing such players might do us all some good. I played a game once where I lost before my turn 1. I literally spent turn 2 removing models and walked turn 3 since it was a waste of my time to hold on to help assuage the dude's ego.

There is no gaming fun to be had in what he did and so any satisfaction must have been derived from being labelled "a winner". What a low self esteem he must have had.

Anyway my point is; does the money GW makes from losers like that outweigh the money lost from the people such like him drive out the hobby?

My bet is - no. 40K has been receding for years and partly because of a broken, boring system. Why should I pay lots and lots of money just for some broken, unbalanced army to stomp all over my army?

So I reckon GW cares very much about the narrative and players who don't are a minority they won't cater for.
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#230
Juggernut

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I wouldn't care about losing "that guy" in the hobby, but I don't necessarily think it's accurate to use someone like that as a representation of people who don't want to pay money for fluff.

For example, Gathering Storm. I liked reading the summaries and reviews from people who bought the book, but I had no interest in buying them. If there were rules for my faction in those books, I would have bought them if those rules didn't totally suck. I'm virtually never going to spend money on fluff alone. I love buying as many models as possible, to a stupid degree, far beyond what I've assembled or even have time to assemble. I've reined that in, too. I actually paid for many books in the past couple of years, and regret doing so. I regret spending $180 on the special edition of KDK, I regret spending $50 on Traitor's Hate, but I don't regret spending $35 on Traitor Legions. Minimal fluff, full of rules. Not too much fat, just enough to add flavor. This could be an argument against free rules, because it's an example of a product that appealed to me and ended up being worthwhile. As rare as that may be, it's totally possible. I'm just not one of those who will buy every damn thing they put out.

By the same token, I'll actually read Lexicanum for hours. It's not that I'm disinterested in the background of the 40k universe, it just isn't something I'm going to pay for directly. I don't love Khornate units because they're good on the tabletop. Many of them suck balls, but they fit my personality and my play style, I love the way they look, and so on. The rule of cool, as it were.

If there's an armybuilder app, and if the core rules are free (unlikely, but for the sake of argument), I'm not gonna buy books any more. The models will always be worthwhile to me, but the books won't. Inevitably, they can't please everyone. I'm one of those who hasn't been very impressed by the quality of their storytelling. More power to those who are. I hope they buy up all the books GW has to offer. But if they want my money, I want better rules and better models. Since the latter is more likely than the former, that's where they'll get my money. Even then, the game will always be playable, because "that guy" is rare, and I wouldn't play him in the wild anyhow.

Edited by Venomlust, 31 March 2017 - 03:51 AM.

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#231
the jeske

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GW cares more about the narrative than anyone as that's what JJ and crew have been pushing for years. They don't actually seem to care or understand there are WAAC players who buy the recent hotness because they can wipe the floor with folk.

As such, I think losing such players might do us all some good. I played a game once where I lost before my turn 1. I literally spent turn 2 removing models and walked turn 3 since it was a waste of my time to hold on to help assuage the dude's ego.

There is no gaming fun to be had in what he did and so any satisfaction must have been derived from being labelled "a winner". What a low self esteem he must have had.

Anyway my point is; does the money GW makes from losers like that outweigh the money lost from the people such like him drive out the hobby?

My bet is - no. 40K has been receding for years and partly because of a broken, boring system. Why should I pay lots and lots of money just for some broken, unbalanced army to stomp all over my army?

So I reckon GW cares very much about the narrative and players who don't are a minority they won't cater for.

Low self esteem from winning, because he likes winning? Realy? telling people that spend just as much cash as you, and probably more then an avarge GW player, is the right thing to just bugger off?

 

You mention JJ, sure he has his view on how the game should be, mostly coming from historicals But there were other people that made this game, important people that shaped whole edition. Chambers, H-man etc they did care about the rules and the "winning" . And saying that people are more interested more in the narrative then in the actual rules, is contradicted in what you say yourself. The game can be boring and has unbalanced elements, because the narrative part is overblown and there is less focus on the actual rules part of the game. You have designer making rules for stuff they think is "cool" in one book, and then making stuff which is totaly not cool in another, AND then people who play those two drasticly different books play each other.

Do you realy do think that what the person with less or no cool stuff cares more about the type of belt feed magazin for  bolters his dude have, then the fact that his 700$+ dollars are not enjoyable to play with? I think he cares about the cash more. Not to mention that this is a strickly GW games problem, no other gaming system has.  And there were more then a few through the years


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"Felix wondered how Calgar might feel about the primach's unilateral altering of the Codex Astartes. The captain could not help but feel that, in his drive for victory and efficiency, Guilliman had been careless with the feelings of his existing sons. Increasingly, Guilliman looked to the Primaris Space Marines as his first solution. He made no attempt to hide the fact that the days of the older space marines were numbered."


#232
Captain Idaho

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I didn't say caring about both was mutually exclusive.

And yes, if all you care about is winning a little wargame without using any skill but a net-list that auto-plays, then yes you have a low self esteem and need to find some new priorities. I enjoy winning, but only if there is a genuine challenge.

Now, I'm not including people who don't care about the narrative in with the WAAC crowd. I might not have been clear on that. What I'm saying is GW doesn't care for the WAAC player but if you care about the game, GW have moved into a position that recognises that player. Wanting a fun but challenging game is a great angle.

My position, which I suspect is GW position, is that players who only care about the game are a minority compared to the others and the game will be hurt if no one cared about the background.
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#233
Gentlemanloser

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I want a fun an challenging game.  Those are the absolute best.  Where each turn who's 'winning' swings back and forth, in nail biting excitement!

 

But GW do not support this.

 

Not when they continue to release products without any sort of play testing, or internal balance.  Not when they continue to refuse to balance those units that are heavily imbalanced, and are either too good, or too poor.

 

Edit: I think there's a design philosophy split, somewhere.

 

Is 40k a miniature competitive wargame?  Is 40k a media to showcase narrative stories?

 

Is it somehow a mix of both?


Edited by Gentlemanloser, 31 March 2017 - 09:45 AM.

QUOTE (Seahawk @ Jul 30 2011, 05:31 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
We all feel different ways about different rules, but if you're traveling between different gaming groups or to tournaments, the only commonality is the rules as they are written. If you can get your opponent to agree with you on house-ruling something then that changes things, but until then all we can do is go by how things are written.

#234
SickSix

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No it most certainly has been the latter for years. They have even admitted as much.

However, I am hoping Roundtree takes the opportunity with 8th to change that. 3 ways to play has me excited. I hope they don't naff it up.

#235
Gentlemanloser

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I bet the 'community' will ignore two of those ways.

 

Exactly like the community ignores Unbound currently.


QUOTE (Seahawk @ Jul 30 2011, 05:31 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
We all feel different ways about different rules, but if you're traveling between different gaming groups or to tournaments, the only commonality is the rules as they are written. If you can get your opponent to agree with you on house-ruling something then that changes things, but until then all we can do is go by how things are written.

#236
Captain Idaho

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I agree. Matched play will be standard but that doesn't mean normal players won't be playing cool battles out in their minds.

The game needs to work. I totally am on board with that. I only collect because of the game. But I only stick to the game because of the background, as there are plenty of good games out there.
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#237
NovemberIX

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I bet the 'community' will ignore two of those ways.
 
Exactly like the community ignores Unbound currently.


I actually just played an Apoc game with an Unbound list, in fact I use unbound regularly to build fluffy lists. Both sides had a lot of fun, and even a few surprises happened, grand times had by all. My hope is that we still get releases like Panetary Onslaught, crusade of fire, or Battle Mission in 8th, free or not.

#238
DanPesci

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Wasnt going to read through 10 pages..but thought id throw in me tuppence....

 

I really hope they move towards some sort of free rules.

 

Sure, still print codexes/supplements - as the players loyal to that faction will still buy them

 

However at the moment, the sheer number of books i have to buy just to keep up with my own options, and the options of even just 1-2 opponents, is waaaay too much cost

 

BRB - codex SW - Cof  - Cotw (or both), and the flyer one (which ill never buy).

 

Say i go to a store and play two games, one against a tau opponent and one against an eldar...chances are i have no idea what their units are capable of (without going through in detail about each unit before the game, which would take forever). If i had access to at least the rules id have some basic knowledge.

 

The gathering strom books have just made this even worse (whats that like a new 18 or so formations in 3 months?? that i need to know spend £100+ to understand).

 

 

On top of that you then have an faq come out, and invalidate your book...so i have to go online and print off that faq to take around with me anyway...

 

 

What ive always been keen for them to implement is a rules subscription service:

- Core rules - free

- You can then pay a faction specific subscription, or an 'everything please' subscription, which you can access online at any time, and which is kept up to date with all your latest choices, formations, faqs etc.

- Imagine GW building their own battlescribe app, which comes with all the rules as well.

 

The supplement books should then be concentrating on writing awesome fluff (something i dont think they are currently doing, instead being sold on 'must-get-latest-bestest-formation'), with some great campaign missions to play out. (whilst having the rules in still). I'd still buy that if i was interested in the campaign.


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#239
the jeske

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Well in the end we are probably going to get something like what AoS gets. Raw stats in an app form , formations/points costs through stuff that is paid, be it form of app or books does not matter. I just hope that the cycle of updates won't mirror that [I know it is a small hope considering sigmarines are marines of AoS] in AoS. And we won't end up being something ,marines ,something ,marines ,marines ,something.


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"Felix wondered how Calgar might feel about the primach's unilateral altering of the Codex Astartes. The captain could not help but feel that, in his drive for victory and efficiency, Guilliman had been careless with the feelings of his existing sons. Increasingly, Guilliman looked to the Primaris Space Marines as his first solution. He made no attempt to hide the fact that the days of the older space marines were numbered."





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