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FMC Units vs Grounding Tests & Charges


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#1
Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra

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A little something that came up in idle discussion.

Some types of FMC (the example used was the HH Vultarax Stratos-Automata, which may well be the singular example) come in units/squadrons. Now, Grounding Tests are taken on a model by model basis (the rules speak of FMCs in the singular). If a unit takes a single wound and only one model has to take Grounding Test, one would presume the model takes the test, and then sits on the ground until the next turn (provided it fails), after which it goes back to Swooping.

 

But what if the grounded model is charged, and thus locked in combat? Can it even *be* charged, what with the rest of the unit not being possible targets for a charge? Does it simply get removed as a casualty? Does it force the remainder of the unit to ground (and possibly take part in the fight)? And if neither of those two happen, what of the next turn when the others in the unit Swoop on? Do the others simply move on, abandoning the lone model, the way vehicle squadrons do with Immobilised squadron-mates? Indeed, can they even Swoop, or are they forced into Glide mode, and must get into the combat?

 

In short, what happens when a single model in a Swooping unit of FMCs gets Grounded and charged?


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#2
Dam13n

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Clearly the Flying Monstrous Creature rules were not written with units (as opposed to single models) in mind. Therefore you are not likely to get a definitive answer here.

Your best bet would be to try GW directly, via their Facebook page, or Forgeworld directly (as the unit in question is theirs, and also appears to only have experimental rules at present).

Edited by Dam13n, 20 March 2017 - 10:19 PM.


#3
Kristoff

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Going by the rules available (which apparently mean zilch to the FAQ team, half the time), You would only be able to get in to Base contact with the model that was actually Grounded.  If successful and neither the Grounded model nor Charging unit is removed from play, then the FMC unit is locked in Combat.  In the next Movement Phase the rest of the unit must switch to Glide mode as they won't be able to Move.  They also won't be able to Shoot in the Shooting Phase.  They would then be able to Pile In to the rest of the unit. 

 

Theoretically, they could Pile-In and Consolidate in the turn their unit-mate was charged, as there are no rules preventing it (Charge prevention usually stops it), but it is a bit hinky at this point.


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#4
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By the rules available I'm not even sure the lone FMC could be charged. 'Swooping' tells us that "A Flying Monstrous Creature cannot charge or be charged whilst it is Swooping". Units are charged, not individual models, so even if one model is Grounded, you'd still be charging Swooping FMCs.

#5
Kristoff

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By the rules available I'm not even sure the lone FMC could be charged. 'Swooping' tells us that "A Flying Monstrous Creature cannot charge or be charged whilst it is Swooping". Units are charged, not individual models, so even if one model is Grounded, you'd still be charging Swooping FMCs.

 

Sure, if the rule said the FMC unit, then it would be in consideration.  Until the rule references the unit, though, it is referencing the model.  A Swooping model is not able to be Charged any more than a unit completely hidden or out of maximum Charge range..  The unit is not looking at a Swooping model, though, it is looking at a Gliding model, which CAN be Charged.  Any Charging model would not be able to get in to Base contact with one of the Swooping models during the Charge move (as they are not valid Charge targets).  However, once Charging is complete, there are no restrictions on Swooper or Charger from Pilling In to Base Contact. 

 

It's a goofy setup, and shows the lack of rule-mapping that GW has, but theoretically possible with the written rules we have.


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#6
Mr. Shine

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Sure, if the rule said the FMC unit, then it would be in consideration.  Until the rule references the unit, though, it is referencing the model.  A Swooping model is not able to be Charged any more than a unit completely hidden or out of maximum Charge range..  The unit is not looking at a Swooping model, though, it is looking at a Gliding model, which CAN be Charged.  Any Charging model would not be able to get in to Base contact with one of the Swooping models during the Charge move (as they are not valid Charge targets).  However, once Charging is complete, there are no restrictions on Swooper or Charger from Pilling In to Base Contact.


Models don't get charged, though; units do. From the Charge Sub-phase rules:

"To resolve a charge, use the following procedure:
• First, pick one of your units, and declare which enemy unit it wishes to charge."


Thus the unit is being charged, which includes Swooping FMC models, which cannot be charged. Necessarily you can't charge the Grounded FMC because doing so involves charging Swooping FMCs.

#7
Kristoff

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Models don't get charged, though; units do. From the Charge Sub-phase rules:

"To resolve a charge, use the following procedure:
• First, pick one of your units, and declare which enemy unit it wishes to charge."


Thus the unit is being charged, which includes Swooping FMC models, which cannot be charged. Necessarily you can't charge the Grounded FMC because doing so involves charging Swooping FMCs.


Models DO get Charged, they just cannot have Charges declared at them.

Move Initial Charger
Start each charge by moving the initial charger from the charging unit. The initial charger is always the model nearest to the enemy (as measured by the shortest possible route, going around impassable terrain, friendly models and enemy models in other units).

Move the initial charger into contact with the nearest enemy model in the unit being charged, using the shortest possible route. Roll for dangerous terrain if necessary, and if the model is killed by a Dangerous Terrain test, choose a new initial charger and try again.

  
And just as a reminder:
 

A unit can never declare a charge against a unit that it cannot reach, nor can it declare a charge against a unit that it cannot see..,

A Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature is treated as if it is in Glide mode with immediate effect, and can therefore be charged in the following Assault phase.

  
So that Grounded FMC is reachable, I assume it can be seen (or this wouldn't even be in question).
 
None of the Swooping rules ever refer to a Flying Monstrous Creature unit.  It's probably because they didn't think it was necessary to address (as usual).
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#8
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Models DO get Charged, they just cannot have Charges declared at them.

Move Initial Charger
Start each charge by moving the initial charger from the charging unit. The initial charger is always the model nearest to the enemy (as measured by the shortest possible route, going around impassable terrain, friendly models and enemy models in other units).

Move the initial charger into contact with the nearest enemy model in the unit being charged, using the shortest possible route. Roll for dangerous terrain if necessary, and if the model is killed by a Dangerous Terrain test, choose a new initial charger and try again.

  
And just as a reminder:
 

A unit can never declare a charge against a unit that it cannot reach, nor can it declare a charge against a unit that it cannot see..,

A Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature is treated as if it is in Glide mode with immediate effect, and can therefore be charged in the following Assault phase.

  
So that Grounded FMC is reachable, I assume it can be seen (or this wouldn't even be in question).
 
None of the Swooping rules ever refer to a Flying Monstrous Creature unit.  It's probably because they didn't think it was necessary to address (as usual).


I've underlined the bits where the rules you quoted speak in terms of units being charged. You can't declare a charge against just the Grounded FMC; you charge the entire unit of FMCs. Charging that unit would involve charging Swooping FMCs, which you're not allowed to do.
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#9
Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra

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But what has priority? Not being allowed to charge Swooping FMCs, or being allowed to charge Gliding FMCs?


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#10
Kristoff

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I've underlined the bits where the rules you quoted speak in terms of units being charged. You can't declare a charge against just the Grounded FMC; you charge the entire unit of FMCs. Charging that unit would involve charging Swooping FMCs, which you're not allowed to do.


Then you've missed the point I've made a couple times.  If a unit has some models completely hidden by terrain, are you saying you cannot Charge the unit?  If some of the models in a unit are outside of the distance rolled on the Charge dice, you cannot Charge the unit?  This is the equivalence to this statement that can be made for any multi-model unit.

 

In order for a Charge to be successful, only 1 model must reach Base Contact with an enemy model.  An FMC in Glide mode can be reached, while a Swooping FC cannot.  A Grounded FMC is automatically in Glide mode, before the Shooting Phase even ends, so can be reached by Chargers.  If the nearer model is Swooping, you won't be able to move your Initial Charger in Base Contact, but if you can reach the Grounded FMC, the Charge can be successful.


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#11
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Then you've missed the point I've made a couple times.

Indeed? There'd better be some new perspective coming or this might find itself closed with prejudice.
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#12
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this is an interesting case where status of the unit matters. since only one model would be grounded, and would be the only model in the unit eligible to be charged, that ONE model could charged. However since there is still other models in the air, the unit is more than 50% flying, and thus wouldn't be able to be charged. Since this case doesn't really appear in 40k, being at its a 30k unit, its really weird. Its not the same as charging a unit when you can see only one model, as long as the unit is in range to be charged and you can see at least one model of it you can charge it. that being said the converse also applies, there is a model in LOS and it can be charged.

 

There are two ways to simplify this for 40k purposes, 1 the entire unit takes a grounding check, however only the model who took a wound would take a wound from grounding should they fail. This solution would not be a popular one since it is wholly different from the rest of the book, but its just a simplification to try to avoid any disambiguation.

 

The second, and the most reasonable, is just to say that the unit is unable to be charged based on the status of the unit. There is no "squadron" rule for FMC unlike vehicles.

 

There is even a third possible outcome that I just thought of while typing all of the above. That option being that the unit can be charged, and any models are currently flying immediately land and take part in the combat.


 
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#13
Kristoff

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this is an interesting case where status of the unit matters. since only one model would be grounded, and would be the only model in the unit eligible to be charged, that ONE model could charged. However since there is still other models in the air, the unit is more than 50% flying, and thus wouldn't be able to be charged. Since this case doesn't really appear in 40k, being at its a 30k unit, its really weird. Its not the same as charging a unit when you can see only one model, as long as the unit is in range to be charged and you can see at least one model of it you can charge it. that being said the converse also applies, there is a model in LOS and it can be charged.


Sadly, there is nothing supporting the concept that if 50% of the models of a unit cannot be Charged, the unit cannot be Charged.  And yes, it is exactly the same as the concept of being able to see, as the same rule states "reach".  All references to "Flying Monstrous Creatures" are singular, not by group.  So, we take those rules on a model by model basis.  Therefore, that's all we got.  If all references to "Flying Monstrous Creatures" refer to the unit, then the whole unit would be Grounded anyway.
 

There are two ways to simplify this for 40k purposes, 1 the entire unit takes a grounding check, however only the model who took a wound would take a wound from grounding should they fail. This solution would not be a popular one since it is wholly different from the rest of the book, but its just a simplification to try to avoid any disambiguation.
 
The second, and the most reasonable, is just to say that the unit is unable to be charged based on the status of the unit. There is no "squadron" rule for FMC unlike vehicles.
 
There is even a third possible outcome that I just thought of while typing all of the above. That option being that the unit can be charged, and any models are currently flying immediately land and take part in the combat.


The third is the one I mentioned at the beginning, and fits with the rules we currently have.  We are not required to consider all the model's status when Charging a unit, just so long as we can reach one.  We may need to consider a unit's status, but Swooping has yet to be proven to be a unit status.

 

The second one is not supported by any rules, and is not reasonable.  You finally got it to the ground, but can't Charge it because its mate is still in the air?  Again, this is like saying I cannot Charge a unit because the rest of the models are out of sight or only accessible across Impassable Terrain.

 

The first, if we are to consider the unit to be going by the same status at all times, then the entire unit is Grounded, as the same language that we would be justifying not being able to Charge the one Grounded model is the same language being used to Ground that model in the first place.

 

Either way, the unit can be Charged.  It just works better for balance if it is just the one model.  The Chargers get their Charge and fight, while the owner limits the models that initially make the Charge move against his unit.  Pile Ins would take care of the rest.


Edited by Kristoff, 20 March 2017 - 09:12 PM.

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#14
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We are not required to consider all the model's status when Charging a unit, just so long as we can reach one.  We may need to consider a unit's status, but Swooping has yet to be proven to be a unit status.


I think this is crux the of what I disagree with, because you seem to be claiming the Swooping FMCs are not charged on the basis you only need to reach the Grounded FMC, yet the rules are full of references to the unit being charged (and not simply having a charge declared against it).

Could you expand on why the Swooping FMCs are not considered to be charged, being part of the unit with the Grounded FMC that is charged?

So far as needing only to see a single model and not the entire unit, being honest it seems to me that's an assumption we've made the whole time. A reasonable one, yes, but not necessarily grounds to consider that we should make the same assumption in a different but comparable situation.

I think you probably should be able to charge the Grounded FMC, but I'm not yet convinced it's allowable in the rules as they are.

Edited by Mr. Shine, 21 March 2017 - 04:50 AM.


#15
Kristoff

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We are not required to consider all the model's status when Charging a unit, just so long as we can reach one.  We may need to consider a unit's status, but Swooping has yet to be proven to be a unit status.


I think this is crux the of what I disagree with, because you seem to be claiming the Swooping FMCs are not charged on the basis you only need to reach the Grounded FMC, yet the rules are full of references to the unit being charged (and not simply having a charge declared against it).

Could you expand on why the Swooping FMCs are not considered to be charged, being part of the unit with the Grounded FMC that is charged?

 

Swooping FMCs cannot be Charged because rules exist which prevent them form being Charged.  We know the rules on this.  What has not been demonstrated is that if one/majority of FMC's are Swooping in the unit, the unit is considered Swooping.  Swooping is only referenced to affecting a model, not a unit.

 

The unit is Charged by virtue of getting in to base contact with the Grounded FMC.  This is perfectly legal.  Unless the other FMCs in the unit are Grounded at the same time (no rules support for this requirement), then Charging models would not be able to use their Charge Move to get in to Base Contact with these models any more than they could if they were out of range, standing in the middle of Impassable Terrain, or being behind a LoS-blocking wall.

 

If for some reason you want to consider the Swooping/Gliding form are run by the entire unit, then all of the FMCs would be Gliding as soon as the one FMC Grounded.  The language that is used in Swooping is the same language that is used in Grounding.  It is a case of consistency.
 

So far as needing only to see a single model and not the entire unit, being honest it seems to me that's an assumption we've made the whole time. A reasonable one, yes, but not necessarily grounds to consider that we should make the same assumption in a different but comparable situation.

I think you probably should be able to charge the Grounded FMC, but I'm not yet convinced it's allowable in the rules as they are.

The requirements for being able to Charge the unit is under Declare Charge, a unit can never declare a charge against a unit that it cannot reach or It cannot see.  Nothing is noted about requiring to see the entire unit nor reach the entire unit, anymore than the same consideration is required for Shooting.

 

Indeed, when Moving Initial Charger, the only time the Charge can Fail is if the Initial Charger cannot get in to Base Contact with the nearest model of the Enemy unit, even if the rest of the models cannot reach any other models of the unit.

 

In short, requiring that ALL models of the unit be available to be Charged is placing a burden the ruleset currently does not state.


Edited by Kristoff, 21 March 2017 - 06:15 AM.

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#16
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Swooping FMCs cannot be Charged because rules exist which prevent them form being Charged.  We know the rules on this.  What has not been demonstrated is that if one/majority of FMC's are Swooping in the unit, the unit is considered Swooping.  Swooping is only referenced to affecting a model, not a unit.


That's not really what I'm arguing. The point I'm making is that Swooping FMCs are part of the unit being charged in this scenario. It seems to me you're claiming that despite being part of the unit being charged they are not considered themselves as being charged, which is what I'd like some expansion on from you.

Basically, can you explain to me how the Swooping FMCs are not being charged, given they are part of the unit being charged?

In short, requiring that ALL models of the unit be available to be Charged is placing a burden the ruleset currently does not state.


Nor are we given explicit instruction that being able to see part of a unit suffices in this scenario. It's a reasonable assumption we've made.

In this scenario I don't think it holds that because we assume we can charge a unit we can see partially see we can also charge a unit only partially containing models we're not restricted from charging.

#17
Gentlemanloser

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Are there any rules to disallow charging (or to not give us permission *to* charge) a unit we can only partially see?

 

If not, then why is it any different for a mixed Grounded/Swooping unit?

 

Edit;

 

I suppose boiling this topic down the two important questions are;

 

"What does it take to 'see' a unit?  If 9 out of 10 members are out of LoS, but the 10th is visible, can you 'see' the unit?"

 

And;

 

"Does Swooping count as 'Impassable Terrain'"

 

I ask that, as what happens if the closest enemy model in the mixed Grounded/Swooping unit is a Swooping model?

 

Your Initial Charger must be the closest to the enemy, measuring around Impassable Terrain.  But it says nothing about enemy models that are 'out of reach'.  You must move your closest model to the closest enemy model "using the shortest possible route".

 

It's possible that the closest enemy is 'out of reach' as they are swooping.  And we're not told to ignore models out of reach in this.

 

Personally, I don't think these rules cater to a unit of FMC, and we can't adequately use the current rules to resolve this.

 

Like other sections of the BRB, "this section doesn't work and need to be rewritten".


Edited by Gentlemanloser, 21 March 2017 - 08:56 AM.

QUOTE (Seahawk @ Jul 30 2011, 05:31 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
We all feel different ways about different rules, but if you're traveling between different gaming groups or to tournaments, the only commonality is the rules as they are written. If you can get your opponent to agree with you on house-ruling something then that changes things, but until then all we can do is go by how things are written.

#18
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Are there any rules to disallow charging (or to not give us permission *to* charge) a unit we can only partially see?
 
If not, then why is it any different for a mixed Grounded/Swooping unit?


I would argue because common use of the phrase, "I can see x" includes being able to partially see it.

In this scenario with charging however I can't see how you can charge only specific models in the unit, or only partially charge a unit.

Yes, you make charge moves with charging models towards other models in the enemy unit, but being charged doesn't specifically require you to have had a charging model make its charge move into base contact.

Edited by Mr. Shine, 21 March 2017 - 08:50 AM.


#19
Gentlemanloser

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The Initial Charger must move into base contact;

 

"Move the initial charger into contact"

 

And under Failed Charge;

 

"If the Initial Charger is found to be further than its charge range"

 

Moving Charging Models

 

"Charging units must attempt to move into base contact"

 

 

So the Initial Charger has to charge the closest enemy, but the shortest route, and end in base contact for the Charge to be successful.


QUOTE (Seahawk @ Jul 30 2011, 05:31 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
We all feel different ways about different rules, but if you're traveling between different gaming groups or to tournaments, the only commonality is the rules as they are written. If you can get your opponent to agree with you on house-ruling something then that changes things, but until then all we can do is go by how things are written.

#20
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The main issue with allowing a charge against a mixed swooping/gliding unit of FMC is wound allocation.

Even if the swooping FMC cannot be engaged or even themselves attack they must still be allocated wounds once the grounded FMC is killed.

That seems a little unfair to the player of the swooping FMC's.

There simply isn't a way to resolve this using rules as written.

The most simple approach is to use the intent from the vehicle squadron rules. The player controlling the FMC's either decides to ground all the models in the unit or the grounded FMC becomes a separate unit.

As this already applies to multi vehicle units it seems a good fit for multi FMC units and avoids all of the very messy assault issues caused by mixed swooping and gliding units.

#21
Gentlemanloser

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Apologies in advance for my terrible diagram! ;)

 

E = Enemy models

C = Charging unit (Initial Charger in this case)

___ = LoS blocking wall

 

 

Imagine a setup like;

 

 

  E1      E2      E3

________

 

 C

 

 

The charging unit can see the enemy unit, through E3, and can therefore declare a charge.

 

Using the shortest possible route, ignoring impassable terrain, E1 is the closest enemy to C (the initial Charger), although E1 can't be seen.

 

Does C have to charge E1 (possibly by running around the wall to the left)?  Or does C have to charge E3, being the only visible target in the unit?


QUOTE (Seahawk @ Jul 30 2011, 05:31 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
We all feel different ways about different rules, but if you're traveling between different gaming groups or to tournaments, the only commonality is the rules as they are written. If you can get your opponent to agree with you on house-ruling something then that changes things, but until then all we can do is go by how things are written.

#22
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Does C have to charge E1 (possibly by running around the wall to the left)?  Or does C have to charge E3, being the only visible target in the unit?

'C' charges 'E1'. Per the bolded text under Move Initial Charger on pg 46.
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#23
Kristoff

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Swooping FMCs cannot be Charged because rules exist which prevent them form being Charged.  We know the rules on this.  What has not been demonstrated is that if one/majority of FMC's are Swooping in the unit, the unit is considered Swooping.  Swooping is only referenced to affecting a model, not a unit.


That's not really what I'm arguing. The point I'm making is that Swooping FMCs are part of the unit being charged in this scenario. It seems to me you're claiming that despite being part of the unit being charged they are not considered themselves as being charged, which is what I'd like some expansion on from you.

Basically, can you explain to me how the Swooping FMCs are not being charged, given they are part of the unit being charged?

 

Models are only Charged during Charge Moves.  Units have Charges Declared against them.  Note the different terms used between Declaring a Charge and Charge Move.
 
If all of an FMC unit's models are Swooping, the entire unit is unreachable.  If one is Gliding, then the unit is reachable by virtue of the lone model.
 
Same thing would apply if I have models which cannot reach the further models in the target unit because of the rolled dice.
 

 

In short, requiring that ALL models of the unit be available to be Charged is placing a burden the ruleset currently does not state.


Nor are we given explicit instruction that being able to see part of a unit suffices in this scenario. It's a reasonable assumption we've made.

In this scenario I don't think it holds that because we assume we can charge a unit we can see partially see we can also charge a unit only partially containing models we're not restricted from charging.

 

 
Actually we do.  We can see part of a unit, we can see a unit.  If we can reach part of a unit, we can reach the unit.  It is only when the rules spell out absolutes (such as "entire" or "all") that we consider absolutes.
 

The main issue with allowing a charge against a mixed swooping/gliding unit of FMC is wound allocation.

Even if the swooping FMC cannot be engaged or even themselves attack they must still be allocated wounds once the grounded FMC is killed.

That seems a little unfair to the player of the swooping FMC's.

There simply isn't a way to resolve this using rules as written.

The most simple approach is to use the intent from the vehicle squadron rules. The player controlling the FMC's either decides to ground all the models in the unit or the grounded FMC becomes a separate unit.

As this already applies to multi vehicle units it seems a good fit for multi FMC units and avoids all of the very messy assault issues caused by mixed swooping and gliding units.

 
Nothing in the Swooping Rules have any restrictions against having Wounds Allocated to them from Combat, any more than restrictions against Pile Ins exist.  Now, this is probably because when GW wrote the 7th Ed rulebook they stupidly didn't think that FMC units of more than one model would exist.  This is rather stupid since we have units of MCs, and their development staff are always coming out with new tricks.
 
Until then, with the rules that we have, the Swooping FMCs can engage in Combat while not having been Charged themselves.
 
The alternative, as has been noted, is that once one FMC is Grounded, ALL of the unit is Grounded.  It simplifies the situation without denying the ability to Ground an FMC until there is only one model left. 
 
Leaving the Grounded FMC behind is not a legal option.  First we have no option to do so.  Squadron rules are specific to Vehicle Squadrons due to the ability to Immobilize the Vehicle.  One can no more separate a unit of FMCs just because of one being in Combat or Grounded, than one can separate out and leave behind a Sergeant just because he is in a Challenge.
 

 

Does C have to charge E1 (possibly by running around the wall to the left)? Or does C have to charge E3, being the only visible target in the unit?

'C' charges 'E1'. Per the bolded text under Move Initial Charger on pg 46.

 

 

Off hand, it depends on how far that wall extends past E1 and C.


Edited by Kristoff, 21 March 2017 - 06:25 PM.

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#24
Toasterfree

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the best answer here is really to email forgeworld and Gw since this is a way off shoot like so remote out there.


 
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#25
Mr. Shine

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Models are only Charged during Charge Moves.  Units have Charges Declared against them.  Note the different terms used between Declaring a Charge and Charge Move.
 
If all of an FMC unit's models are Swooping, the entire unit is unreachable.  If one is Gliding, then the unit is reachable by virtue of the lone model.
 
Same thing would apply if I have models which cannot reach the further models in the target unit because of the rolled dice.


You're still not answering my question. What is it in your argument that makes it such that the Swooping FMCs in the unit being charged are not themselves being charged?

You keep repeating that models are charged when charging models are moved during 'Charge Move' towards them, but this does not exclude the rest of the models in the unit from being charged, being part of a unit that has been charged.

Unless you're proposing that while the unit as a unit is charged, those specific models in their capacity as models are not charged?

Because otherwise it seems you're insisting that charges are performed at the model level, which the rules plainly don't agree with as evidenced by the overwhelming number of references to units being charged.




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