MBT of the HH

[Bloody Legionnaire]

What is considered the "Main Battle Tank" for the Legions Astartes during the Horus Heresy?

[Athrawes]

Probably Arkhan Land's Raider-Pattern Main battle tank.

 

That's the actual, unbastardized name for the Land Raider.

[1000 Sons]

The Land's Raider.

[Bloody Legionnaire]

But does the Land Raider really satisfy the requirements of a MBT? I feel like it's main weaponry isn't enough to qualify it...

[Memento Of Prospero]

But does the Land Raider really satisfy the requirements of a MBT? I feel like it's main weaponry isn't enough to qualify it...

Overall utility it is. It does and has everything. Nothing is more Iconic either.

[Bloody Legionnaire]

 

But does the Land Raider really satisfy the requirements of a MBT? I feel like it's main weaponry isn't enough to qualify it...

Overall utility it is. It does and has everything. Nothing is more Iconic either.

What definition are you using for "MBT?"

 

Because it needs to have a much bigger anti armor weapon than lascannons. You don't think a LR is more of a troop transport? It is an assault vehicle after all.. I just don't think it fits the bill considering the definition of an MBT.

[Kais Klip]

72 tons. 95mm of triple-layered adamantium. 50kph trucka trucka. Not one but two anti-materiel later cannons. A heavy bolter, with shells available in high and low velocity variety, all twin-linked for your pleasure. And the main course armament of ten (twelve) power armoured, heat seeking missiles, that just get spikier and deadlier the more this baby gets hit and spalls around on the inside. A kraken could swallow this thing and it would roll out of its :cuss without even throwing a track. The God-Emperor couldn't be more generous. Except he was, because he made the whole thing able to be run on the burning fumes of your enemy. And just 'cause you complained, he threw in a pintle mount, and a sexy, concussive-proof space marine crew.

 

It's a submarine space tank, with lazer cannons and a high caliber slug mount. What more do you want? Flare shields? Come to 30k, we have flare shields and melta immunity.

[Kastor Krieg]

The LR is technically an IFV. Marine scaled, but IFV. It's also shaped exactly like the WW1 Mark V British tank. 40k logic.

 

In practice, the Land Raider is a Bradley (Rhino/Razorback chassis are Stryker IFV / MGS Stryker variants, basically) equivalent, fairly armoured and protected, tracked, troop transport and weapons platform. No main cannon. For a proper MBT you're looking to a Sicaran, Brothers. 

 

And the Leman Russ tank is a Mk IV British tank, with a turret. In 40k it's a medium tank, lol.

[Bloody Legionnaire]

72 tons. 95mm of triple-layered adamantium. 50kph trucka trucka. Not one but two anti-materiel later cannons. A heavy bolter, with shells available in high and low velocity variety, all twin-linked for your pleasure. And the main course armament of ten (twelve) power armoured, heat seeking missiles, that just get spikier and deadlier the more this baby gets hit and spalls around on the inside. A kraken could swallow this thing and it would roll out of its :cuss without even throwing a track. The God-Emperor couldn't be more generous. Except he was, because he made the whole thing able to be run on the burning fumes of your enemy. And just 'cause you complained, he threw in a pintle mount, and a sexy, concussive-proof space marine crew.

It's a submarine space tank, with lazer cannons and a high caliber slug mount. What more do you want? Flare shields? Come to 30k, we have flare shields and melta immunity.

What more do I want... an actual main battle tank.

 

I'm sorry, just because it's tough as a World Eater with the butchers nails doesn't make it an MBT.

 

Take a look at Wikipedia and you'll see a MBT is a tank with the Armor of a Heavy tank and the gun of a super heavy. Maybe a Legion Astartes example doesn't exist but the Land Raider doesn't fulfill the role a MBT would. Could be a semantics issue and you are not defining MBT as I am.. Something like the Fellblade fits the bill considering it's gun but I think it's a little too heavy to be considered an MBT.

 

The modern MBT is the replacement of both heavy and super heavy tanks because it has all the advantages of the former with maneuverability and smaller size going for it.

The LR is technically an IFV. Marine scaled, but IFV. It's also shaped exactly like the WW1 Mark V British tank. 40k logic.In practice, the Land Raider is a Bradley (Rhino/Razorback chassis are Stryker IFV / MGS Stryker variants, basically) equivalent, fairly armoured and protected, tracked, troop transport and weapons platform. No main cannon. For a proper MBT you're looking to a Sicaran, Brothers. And the Leman Russ tank is a Mk IV British tank, with a turret. In 40k it's a medium tank, lol.

Finally a guy that gets it...

[Athrawes]

 

 

But does the Land Raider really satisfy the requirements of a MBT? I feel like it's main weaponry isn't enough to qualify it...

Overall utility it is. It does and has everything. Nothing is more Iconic either.

What definition are you using for "MBT?"

 

Because it needs to have a much bigger anti armor weapon than lascannons. You don't think a LR is more of a troop transport? It is an assault vehicle after all.. I just don't think it fits the bill considering the definition of an MBT.

 

 

It seems like we have a pretty solid consensus, which of course you're welcome to disagree with. But at This point we have answered your questions, so I guess you should instead put forward your own thought about which Astartes Vehicle is the MBT of the great crusade? 

 

Otherwise this discussion is kind of pointless asking a question and then disagreeing with the answer.

[Marshal Loss]

Probably a Predator, mass produced, extremely common, flexible, used by every Legion.

 

note: I deal with ancient warfare not modern so I may be wrong here

 

edit: google says I have no clue. I assumed a main battle tank was a tank of the line, like your workhorse, but am evidently wrong. Continue as was gentlemen

[Bloody Legionnaire]

Marshal, I considered the Predator but it doesn't really have the punch for the anti-armor role.

 

The Sicaran may fair a little better since its gun has such high penetration.

[Kais Klip]

The space marines don't need a MBT. Those are your malcadors, and they were on the way out to be replaced by Leman Russes. The space marines have the land raider, which is closer in function to an IFV true, but only because that relegates the humble rhino to APC status, and it is, thus it shouldn't be within acid spitting distance of a battlefield.

 

This is even backed up by a rhino's armour value, which loses out to a chimera, which is a bastardised half-breed of APC and IFV.

 

Edit: I'm the guy that got censored trying to equivalate real world military doctrines to the legions, and even I'm telling you not to scratch your head to far with this one. It's all terminology, and becomes no more relevant than discussing what fulfills the role of cavalry better, tanks, helicopters or fast movers. Emperor help you when you try to classify dreadnoughs. Which I'd actually like to see you boys try.

[Bloody Legionnaire]

The space marines don't need a MBT. Those are your malcadors, and they were on the way out to be replaced by Leman Russes. The space marines have the land raider, which is closer in function to an IFV true, but only because that relegates the humble rhino to APC status, and it is, thus it shouldn't be within acid spitting distance of a battlefield.

This is even backed up by a rhino's armour value, which loses out to a chimera, which is a bastardised half-breed of APC and IFV.

Edit: I'm the guy that got censored trying to equivalate real world military doctrines to the legions, and even I'm telling you not to scratch your head to far with this one. It's all terminology, and becomes no more relevant than discussing what fulfills the role of cavalry better, tanks, helicopters or fast movers. Emperor help you when you try to classify dreadnoughs. Which I'd actually like to see you boys try.

So basically the Legions don't have a main battle tank is the appropriate answer.. very well!

[Kastor Krieg]

The 40k Predator is more or less a Stryker MGS only tracked (no troop transport, lighter armour, main cannon) + sponsons for the WW1 lulz.

http://www.militarymodelling.com/sites/1/images/member_albums/42220/ethstrykermgs.jpg

 

You could also compare BMP-3 with the 100mm main cannon and Konkurs AT rockets.

 

Razorback / Rhino are the regular Strykers / BMP1 or BMP2 equivalents, tracked, some troop transport capability (top weapon system vs troop count tradeoff).

 

The only thing we know about that fits the bill of an MBT for Marines is a Legion Sicaran (and that is weird as well, because the Venator fits better the tank destroyer bill). I could say the AV14 _and_ turreted main cannon do make the Leman Russ tanks MBTs, but that's Guard.

[Kastor Krieg]

Which I'd actually like to see you boys try.

A manned developmental variant of a Boston Dynamics Atlas or Handle robot.

 

 

[Kais Klip]

Which would make it... what, if we're being pedantic here and labelling everything. What would a dreadnough be, or a tau battlesuit, or an imperial knight. We have no analogue for it in the ancient world; it's not artillery, it's not infantry (?), and it's definitely not cavalry... maybe.

 

I don't want to bring in Titans, since that's irrelevant, but couldn't we classify Dreadnoughts and other "light" walkers as super heavy infantry?

 

I'd like to see Boston dynamics make a Sentinel.

[H311fi5h]

I don't think MBT's will still exist in 38000 years. Warfare changes very quickly as technology evolves. It's surprising the concept even lasts for 70 years (and is likely to last at least for while longer). The concept of the MBT is heavily based on the weapons, means of protection and propulsion available to us. If we suddenly had the technology to build anti-grav vehicles with laser cannons and ray shields, controlled by AI's for example, that concept would probably become obsolete and be replaced. Just like countless other concepts of warfare over the course of history.

40k is of course heavily influenced by real 20th century warfare, but you shouldn't take it too serious. Armoured walkers for example would never work because their ground pressure would make it impossible to operate in any kind of terrain. Don't even think about Titans. Even more realistic vehicles like the Chimera and Leman Russ suffer from significant design flaws (too wide/short and tiny tracks).

[Bloody Legionnaire]

I don't think MBT's will still exist in 38000 years. Warfare changes very quickly as technology evolves. It's surprising the concept even lasts for 70 years (and is likely to last at least for while longer). The concept of the MBT is heavily based on the weapons, means of protection and propulsion available to us. If we suddenly had the technology to build anti-grav vehicles with laser cannons and ray shields, controlled by AI's for example, that concept would probably become obsolete and be replaced. Just like countless other concepts of warfare over the course of history.

40k is of course heavily influenced by real 20th century warfare, but you shouldn't take it too serious. Armoured walkers for example would never work because their ground pressure would make it impossible to operate in any kind of terrain. Don't even think about Titans. Even more realistic vehicles like the Chimera and Leman Russ suffer from significant design flaws (too wide/short and tiny tracks).

It's curious you make that point.. my question then is, why have Super Heavy tanks which have a fairly large presence 38000 years in the future?

 

The whole point of the MBT was to succeed the Super Heavy, and Heavy tanks in Firepower and Armor, yet still maintain the speed of the lighter medium tank.

 

Edit: I'll probably end up getting a Fellblade and supporting it with Sicarans since a true MBT doesn't exist for the Legions. Thanks for the discussion fellas.

[Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra]

Considering the attributes of MBTs (or Universal Tanks, if you wish), I dare say that the closest the Space Marines get without trooping into super-heavies like the Fellblade would be the Predator. No, no, hear me out.

 

The OSCE attributes to MBTs the following: "a self-propelled armoured fighting vehicle, capable of heavy firepower, primarily of a high muzzle velocity direct fire main gun necessary to engage armoured and other targets, with high cross-country mobility, with a high level of self-protection, and which is not designed and equipped primarily to transport combat troops."[1] This certainly describes the Predator. Furthermore, super-heavies trickle into the old heavy tank concept, as slow and incredibly hardy bastards with enough firepower to level a city block ("Starshina, that city block offends me, Remove it." "Da, tovarisch Kapitan! Sergej, call up the KV-2s!") On top of that, however, we have the question of "not designed or equipped primarily to transport combat troops." I don't know what Land had in mind when he designed his MBT, but Land was mad as a hatter (no, really) so his designation of the Land Raider as a main battle tank is perhaps not the best guide around. It's not like other MBTs haven't been made with troop compartments (Merkava, the sexiest tank ever), but their use is not primarily to transport combat troops.

 

That really only leaves us the Predator as the Space Marine's nearest equivalent to the MBT. All it lacks is a gun capable of doing both AT and AP work, but that can be solved with the simple expediency of giving it sponson weapons that fill the role not filled by the turret (LC sponsons for the AC turret, HB sponsons for the LC turret) The Vindictor is an assault gun (the laser-armed variant is a tank destroyer). The Land Raider is a little ambiguous: was the main role envisaged for it to transport troops, or is the troop carrying a mere added bonus? It certainly seems to have had the design moulded around troop carrying and delivery.

 

Now, is the Predator actually an MBT? We can debate this until the cows come home. However, of the commonly available Space Marine combat vehicles, the Predator comes closer than any other. 

 

[1] Treaty on Conventional Armed Forces in Europe

[bluntblade]

Sicarans are relatively rare, do I gather? I only recall seeing them in a single BL scene (Kalium in Path of Heaven)

[b1soul]

I do think it's a bit weird for th Land Raider to be called the Imperium's Main Battle Tank.

 

From Wiki:

 

A main battle tank (MBT), also known as a battle tank or universal tank, is a tank that fills the armor-protected direct fire and maneuver role of many modern armies. Cold War era development of more powerful engines, better suspension systems and lightweight composite armour allowed a tank to have the firepower of a super-heavy tank, armor protection of a heavy tank, and mobility of a light tank all in a package with the weight of a medium tank. Through the 1960s, the MBT replaced almost all other tanks, leaving only some specialist roles to be filled by lighter designs or other types of armoured fighting vehicles.

 

Today, main battle tanks are considered a key component of modern armies.[1] Modern MBTs seldom operate alone, as they are organized into armoured units which involve the support of infantry, who may accompany the MBTs in infantry fighting vehicles. They are also often supported by surveillance or ground-attack aircraft.[2]

Frankly, I'm not sure whether MBTs exist in 40K

[Bloody Legionnaire]

Ezra, I think that's why a few guys brought up the Sicaran... You think the Predator comes in closer than it does?

[Bloody Legionnaire]

Sicarans are relatively rare, do I gather? I only recall seeing them in a single BL scene (Kalium in Path of Heaven)

Maybe in the 41st millennium but not during the HH. According to fluff it was developed at the end of the Geeat Crusade and just like many things during the HH Horus was able to insure the traitor legions were equipped with many.

[SpecialIssue]

If you forget all modern preconceptions of what a main battle tank's layout or features should be, and go on operational role and usage, then the Land Raider is definitely the MBT.

 

It has the speed to maneuver, and the armour and weaponry to go toe-to-toe with the enemy's mainline battle vehicles, and is expected to do just that. It can be/is expected to detach as an armoured spearhead to fight enemy armour/strongpoints, maybe as part of a separate mechanized push after dropping its troops. It is produced in large numbers, and can form as the heart or tip of any assault.  It fulfills all the modern traits of an MBT.

 

The fact that it carries troops is simply reflective of the central nature of the Adeptus Astartes in the way war is fought in the 31st-41st millennium. Just because it transports troops doesn't mean it isn't fulfilling the role of an MBT.

 

The Predator is more used as a light gun system (Stryker MGS) or tank destroyer. Hunter-killer/reactive mobile detachments to raid, exploit and outflank.