Vs Terminators: Tartaros, Cataphractii, Indomitus, Saturnine

[BrainFireBob]

We now have a richness of terminator selections. For those who, like me, are old terminator buffs this is very exciting.

 

So, what's good for what?

 

1) TH/SS terminators: This is probably the standout option for the Indomitus Mk II terminator. Strictly a solid assault unit; good damage output, good survivability, but very slow

2) Lightning claws. I'm thinking these are best on Tartaros terminators, maybe mixing them with a single chainfist+heavy flamer? Or is that overkill?

3) Cataphractii terminators. I'm actually thinking about chainfists on these.

4) Saturnine (Grey Knight) terminators- via Imperial Agents or the Bulwark. Falchions and a hammer on the justicar, yes?

 

 

I can't even pull my thoughts in order- just saw the Tartaros rules and am rather embarrassingly excited for a longbeard!

[Freman Bloodglaive]

Any terminator that can sweeping advance is automatically better than any other, no matter what. Storm shields might be tougher to kill with AP2 fire, but they go down to mass fire like every other terminator, and they can't catch fleeing enemies from combat to either run them down, or hold them in place as a shield against shooting.

 

That makes Tartaros the best. I'd say a single lightning claw plus ranged weapon, or a single power axe (can they take power axes?) plus ranged weapon. They certainly don't want to be losing their ranged ability for more melee ability. It's how I equip my Space Wolf terminators.

[shandwen]

I would counter that survivability is paramount. Sweeping is nice, but in 40k it just doesn't happen often enough, so having one or two more bodues make contact matters more than the chance to sweep (for the few units that are not: fearless, atsknf, or higher iniative).

[Race Bannon]

Doesn't it depend on the target though?  If I can set my SA Tartaros against a weaker opponent with the chance to reach other similarly weak opponent, then SA is clearly a powerful tool.  Without SA then the same targets become more threatening.

[Silas7]

Plus with GW offering some design thoughts about LD meaning more in 8th edition makes Sweeping more viable down the road.

[Captain Idaho]

All that AP2 firepower out there makes the invulnerable save a priority. Thunder Hamner and Storm Shield Terminators and Cataphractii Terminators stand head and shoulders above all others for that reason.

 

Of course, if the opponent doesn't have said firepower, well yes Tartaros is a priority.

 

But Necron Wraiths, Tyranid MCs and what have you won't be as upset going up against Tartaros Terminators as they will against Cataphractii and TH/SS Terminators.

 

I suppose against Orks and Imperial Guard (you can call them what you like) then running them down is a possibility, but I'd say only Orks really are useful for it since so much else is Fearless or will die anyway.

[Ishagu]

I look at any unit as a piece of a puzzle.

They can't be compared in a vacuum.

 

Tartaros might only have a 5++ but they are easily buffed by psychic powers or the addition of a tanky character in a unit.

[Captain Idaho]

Yeah but you can buff anything too. Cataphractii can be buffed with Invisibility or whatever you were thinking.

 

If you want to run down fools and are buffing units whilst doing it, go for cheaper Honour Guard.

[Ishagu]

But Tartaros can deepstrike, and have better cc and shooting weapons than Honour Guard, whilst also being able to sweep.

 

You simply have to decide what rule or ability is most important to you.

[Captain Idaho]

Thing is, Honour Guard can have any transport they want, including a Drop Pod, which trumps.

 

Though their firepower is better, I'd not rate it above Indomitus squads. Certainly not distinctive enough to play a game around it, though I concede that more units Deep Striking will give the Tartaros squad some more clout as back up so that's fair enough.

 

But for close combat, I'd not say Tartaros are better equipped than Honour Guard at all. They have any choice of power weapon and get Relic blades, plus get more attacks by a long way to make up for not getting power fists (if they needed them).

 

Ultimately, Tartaros in my mind, only fit 2 roles in the list in the current format. 1) they look good for you and you want them for that.

 

2) they can deep strike and shoot.

 

But I'd hazard that a survivable unit deep striking would be more valuable since firepower is so dangerous these days.

Edited March 31, 2017 by Captain Idaho

[Brother Captain Ed]

Thing is, Honour Guard can have any transport they want, including a Drop Pod, which trumps.

 

Though their firepower is better, I'd not rate it above Indomitus squads. Certainly not distinctive enough to play a game around it, though I concede that more units Deep Striking will give the Tartaros squad some more clout as back up so that's fair enough.

 

But for close combat, I'd not say Tartaros are better equipped than Honour Guard at all. They have any choice of power weapon and get Relic blades, plus get more attacks by a long way to make up for not getting power fists (if they needed them).

 

Ultimately, Tartaros in my mind, only fit 2 roles in the list in the current format. 1) they look good for you and you want them for that.

 

2) they can deep strike and shoot.

 

But I'd hazard that a survivable unit deep striking would be more valuable since firepower is so dangerous these days.

3.) They count as Terminators or Assault Terminators in your formation.

 

Say what you want about Honor Guard (and I love 'em), they can't do that for me.

[Captain Idaho]

Ah, Formations... I forgot about THOSE.

 

I play a CAD because I don't play massive games and enjoy choosing what I want more freely so I missed it.

[crazyterran]

Tartarus replace Honour Guard unless you are really pinching the points. Ten points gets you a fist, an invulnerable save, and relentless.

 

The only downside is you cant fit ten into a landraider, but 7 + a chaplain in a crusader is not bad either. Being more free to pick transport looks nice on paper, but in reality, ten honor guard dropping out of a pod will attract any ap2 available, and soon you will have naught but a pile of glowing Ceramite.

 

My preferred load out for Tartarus is definitely a fist, since you want to ensure you win the combat, and your 2+ protects you from the vast majority of things that strike at initiative, and you have an invulnerable save (unlike honour guard) to survive their I1 attacks. In addition, the fist will allow you to hurt anything, and you can sweep up anything that you dont kill.

 

Cataphractii would need to lean on the extra attacks to clean out the chaff, since they wont be catching anything. 40k cataphractii dont have any ranged weapon worth noting, so dont really fill that role well either.

 

As for formations, there is a strict RAW argument that non Terminator Assault Squads or Terminator Squads wont benefit from the special rules that grant extra attacks in Strike Force Ultra, since the Cataphractii Terminator Squad or Tartarus Terminator Squad sre not eithe rof the previous two, which are specifically called out in the formation as getting extra shots/attacks.

[Tyberos the Red Wake]

If all you wanted was 2+ armor and AP2, the 10 extra points aren't worth it. I would only consider Cataphractii a direct upgrade as the points buy you a 4++.

 

Terminators don't require a Chapter Master though, and that's a huge tax for lists that could otherwise use a cheaper HQ.

[Captain Idaho]

Honour Guard don't require a Chapter Master either.

 

However, I consider a Chapter Master with Eternal Warrior a great buy for Honour Guard in a Drop Pod as he can take a lot of shots.

 

If you want a Land Raider and Chaplain, plus 7 Tartaros Terminators you're looking at 585pts without pointed upgrades. Those points could get you the same numbers of Honour along with Banner (because) and Chaplain in a Land Raider and also save you 35pts for a couple Relic Blades if needed. It's much more powerful in assault and cheaper. Sure they'll struggle against enemy Terminators without an Independent Character to tank for them (struggle meaning Mutually Assured Destruction in this case which seems like a waste to me) and can't kill a Wraith Knight as easily, but apart from those they kill everything better. For cheaper. So efficient is the unit, you can drop them to 5 models to save another 50pts and still wipe out pretty much anything on the charge.

 

Now, if you want to deep strike you can use a Chapter Master to tank the shots. The Tarentian Mantle is great for Ultramarines but so is the Shield Eternal. This means they can be right on the doorstep. Not as ideal as a Land Raider though.

 

For this comparison, I'd compare Tartaros to the other Terminator squads. 1 has superior shooting and the other superior survivability. I just don't see a place for the Tartaros as it is too meagre at shooting and not the survivable beast it should be to deepstrike safely.

Edited April 2, 2017 by Captain Idaho

[Captain Antonius]

So, not to derail the comments, but is it possible in the rules to have a 40k mixed armors tactical Terminator squad or mixed assault Terminator squad?

 

Rule of cool says no problem, but what about real rules?

[Ishagu]

Nope, they are seperate units.

[Race Bannon]

BUT you mix/match models and then declare which unit you are using per game ^_^

[BrainFireBob]

So, sounds like we are coming down on:

 

1) Tartaros: L. Claws but with guns, reaper with cfist a maybe, plasma blaster, if you can take the sticker shock

2) Cataphracti: No clear consensus. Twin l. Claws? Cfists and guns?

3) Indomitus: Shield and hammer

[Captain Idaho]

Cataphractii I'd use a few powerfists for cheap but powerful attacks and then about 2 chainfists for killing vehicles etc.

[templargdt]

I would not buy the reaper for the Tartaros.  5 Meltabombs for 2 twinlinked Autocannon shots is way too much for me.  You get a cyclone missile launcher on a landspeeder for the same points.

[Freman Bloodglaive]

Since I now have some Catiphracti and Tartaros terminators, I was wondering how to model them. I haven't had a chance to look at the new rules yet but I was wondering if one or the other are able to take combi-weapons (I think their two piece combi-bolters would be easy to turn into a combi-plasma with the addition of one of the many plasma pistols I have lying around) and take a cheap melee weapon in the other hand. I prefer the looks of the Cataphracti, and they match this Captain model I picked up, though Tartaros looking like mini Contemptors is pretty cool too.

[LucidNinja]

Tomorrow with index in hand I will have better advice but from memory you can only take what is on the sprue for tarts and catas. Tartaros sergeant can have Combi bolter, plasma blaster, or volkite. With power sword, fist, lightning clae or chain fist. Can swap both for lightning claws. With the buff to power fists/chain fists I'll be using them for cc and then some cheap guys with autocannons for back field

[Freman Bloodglaive]

Maybe they should turn to Chaos for that sweet plasma goodness. Anyway, they'll be in Word Bearer colours I think. I bought some Mk4 power armour plastics, but I should get some Mk3 as well. Blasted GW luring us in with this nice plastic crack.

[Freman Bloodglaive]

I have to ask, if a Tartaros Sergeant can take a Plasma Blaster why would you ever take a Volkite Charger. It's worse in every way.