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Adeptus Astartes in Shadow War: Armageddon

Shadow War: Armageddon Shadow War 40K

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#1
Brother Tyler

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This is an effort to bring reasonable rules for power armoured Space Marines (aside from the Grey Knights and Chaos Space Marines) to Shadow War: Armageddon.
  • The baseline is pretty easy - take the Chaos Space Marines rules (available here) to start.
  • Remove the Chaos Cultist and replace it with a Space Marine Scout (found in the Shadow War: Armageddon rulebook - you've probably seen the images online by now if you don't have your own copy). This is just the bog standard Scout, not the Sergeant.
  • Remove the Chaos Space Marine Special Rules and Using a Chaos Space Marines Kill Team bits. These will be replaced (see below).
  • Retain the Chaos Space Marine Weapon and Equipment Lists, but replace the Inferno Bolts with Hellfire bolts and Toxic bolts (from the Space Marine Scout Weapon and Equipment Lists, they'll retain the restrictions shown therein) and remove the Blight Grenades.
  • Remove the Chaos Cultists Weapon and Equipment Lists
And then it gets a little more challenging.

The first real challenge, and the piece that really is the focus of discussion here, is differentiating the Chapters. You've probably already seen the skills progressions charts, and there's no reason to change those (except to use the so-called First Founding Chapter names). We'll have to expand that list to cover down on all nine of the loyalist "First Founding" Chapters, though.

Skills progression really doesn't look sufficient, though, especially considering the fact that every faction in the game has special rules of some sort. Something to differentiate the Chapters seems appropriate, but it needs to be reasonable.

For the most part, the Chapter Tactics might be a decent starting place. We'd have to take a long hard look at the Blood Angels, Dark Angels, and Space Wolves in order to distill their codex special rules into something appropriately representative and balanced with the other Chapters. Ignoring that last bit, let's evaluate whether or not the existing Chapter Tactics are suitable.

Or is there some other mechanism that would work?

Ultimately, the results should allow for adequate representation of how each Chapter is different and remain balanced (with the Chaos Space Marines Special Rules serving as our measure of balance).

We might even expand beyond the mainstream Chapters and consider those that are covered in various Forge World Imperial Armour books, but that should come after we finish the main hurdle.

My gut feeling is that, if the Space Marine Scout is retained as the "recruit" option, the Using a Space Marine Kill Team will simply be a variation on the Chaos Space Marine version, allowing a Scout to be upgraded to a trooper. This might get a bit complicated, though, so we'll save that for after we hash out the Chapter differentiation (i.e., Space Marine Special Rules).

Once we get past this bit, we'll discuss whether or not each Chapter might have a few unique items to choose from when selecting their weapons and equipment.

Something else I've wrestled with is whether or not to expand the weapons and equipment. That should probably be saved for later, and should really be an expansion to all of the factions, with the baseline rules having limited options. For example, Chaos Space Marines could easily do with a power maul or some sonic weapons (for those followers of Slaanesh msn-wink.gif ). I have suspicions on this part, so we'll keep the list simple for now.

And we'll also look at special operatives. For now, the baseline looks like adapting the Chaos Space Marines options and offering an Assault Marine, a Terminator, and something else (Techmarine? Librarian? Apothecary? Company Champion? we'll discuss and see).

Once all of that is done, we'll move to the Deathwatch.

For now, though, I'd like to focus on the really difficult element of the Space Marines Special Rules and Using a Space Marines Kill Team.

So the question for now (ignore all of the other stuff I said we'll get around to, but keep it in the back of your mind for now):

Do the Chapter Tactics provided in Codex: Space Marines provide a good starting point for the Space Marines Special Rules?

Responses should be driven by two factors:
  • Accurate representation of Chapters
  • Balance with Chaos Space Marines Special Rules (as well as other factions)

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#2
Claws and Effect

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Some of them do. Others, not so much.

As I do not have access to the rules, I'll pose a couple questions myself.

1) Are bikes or jump packs allowed?

2) Is there any building damage occurring?

If the answers to those questions are "No" it makes half of the Chapter Tactics of 3 different chapters completely useless.

#3
Brother Tyler

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Actually, none of them are "completely" useless as each of the Chapters has a portion that works.

White Scars have the Fight on the Move portion of their rules that apply (though they are definitely oriented towards bikers).

Imperial Fists have the Bolter Drill portion of their rules that apply.

Raven Guard have the Strike from the Shadows portion of their rules that apply.

The other Chapters' Chapter Tactics are unaffected by kill team composition, so they would work fine.

The three Chapters named, though, indicate how Chapter Tactics in Warhammer 40,000 can't simply be ported over into Shadow War: Armageddon. They serve as a starting point, but probably need to be adjusted (weakened) somewhat in order for each of the Chapters to be relatively equal while being distinct.

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#4
Boyadventurer

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I haven't been able to get any games in yet, but have given the rules a good read through. I'm wondering about the balance level of some of the CTs for such a small scale of the game. Hell, even the chaos ones aren't very balanced with each other (it's hard to choose +1 LD over +1 T), but that's a decent starting point. Keep in mind there will be ATSKNF added on there, so without having to figure out cost changes, the CTs should be weaker than a straight (good) stat bump.

 

Salamanders I feel would get the shortest end of the stick. You won't see maybe more than 1 or 2 flamers in a kill team, and it would kind of shoe horn their specialists into only taking that. Maybe just the leader gets an MC weapon? But rerolls to hit already play into UM and IF tactics, so not much variety there.

For BA or BT I could see them getting a bonus to the follow up move when you down an enemy. Thematically fits their style and is sorta similar to the BT Crusader bonus without just giving them extra move.

 

I'd think the 6+ FNP for IH would be fine. It seems along the lines of the MoT 5++. You get the fnp more, but it's only half as good and can get doubled out (wait, does that still happen in SW???)

Maybe IF can reroll failed ammo rolls for bolters? I'd like to see some of the CTs play into the specific SW rules rather than being a straight port over.

That's just some stuff off the top of my head to get the ball rolling.
 


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#5
Claws and Effect

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Actually, none of them are "completely" useless as each of the Chapters has a portion that works.

White Scars have the Fight on the Move portion of their rules that apply (though they are definitely oriented towards bikers).

Imperial Fists have the Bolter Drill portion of their rules that apply.

Raven Guard have the Strike from the Shadows portion of their rules that apply.

The other Chapters' Chapter Tactics are unaffected by kill team composition, so they would work fine.

The three Chapters named, though, indicate how Chapter Tactics in Warhammer 40,000 can't simply be ported over into Shadow War: Armageddon. They serve as a starting point, but probably need to be adjusted (weakened) somewhat in order for each of the Chapters to be relatively equal while being distinct.

That's why I said HALF of the tactics of 3 chapters would be useless. The half that pertains to those unit types or buildings.

I was viewing each chapter tactic as 2 parts.

Edited by Realityburn, 13 April 2017 - 04:25 PM.


#6
Brother Tyler

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After reading the Chaos Space Marines rules a bit more carefully, the Marks of Chaos aren't as prevalent as I'd thought. They're only available to the special operatives, so they aren't the Legion differentiation method that I had at first thought.

With that in mind, the climate of this project changes considerably.

The skills charts become a baseline method of distinguishing between Chapters. In addition, as the rules for Space Wolves Scouts provide, we might have some small trade-offs for Chapters where appropriate.

Additional differentiating between Chapters is the challenge.
  • We could drop our "Chapter Tactics" concept entirely.
  • We could keep our "Chapter Tactics" concept (watered down significantly) and increase the cost to recruit for each model.
  • Another alternative that has occurred to me is that we could make "Chapter Tactics" an option that may be taken upon initially collecting the kill team and, if taken, must be taken for all models in the kill team, including later recruits and special operatives. The same "Chapter Tactics" would have to be taken for each model (so no mixing and matching). Under this option, there might be the possibility of applying different costs to different "Chapter Tactics" theoretically balancing things a bit.
Realistically, I'm not keen on "Chapter Tactics" as a term. I've borrowed that from WH40K rules, but the concept is intended to cover down on Chapter-specific rules, which include the Blood Angels genetic curse.

Perhaps we don't need a blanket set of rules that makes each Chapter different. Perhaps we only need rules for certain Chapters, such as the Blood Angels.

Are the skills (and potentially weapons and equipment) sufficient to differentiate between most Chapters?

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#7
Brother Tyler

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And now that I've picked up my copy of the game and seen the rules, including the Special Operatives, my whole outlook is changed.

 

At this point, the pattern established by Games Workshop is that the various Chapters don't have special "Chapter Tactics" rules to differentiate them. The skills are the method by which they are distinguishable. I can see room for a bit of very minor special rules, but nothing along the lines of the "Chapter Tactics."

 

I'll need a bit more time to look things over. In the meantime, we should probably look at comparable skills for the Chapters that aren't represented (focusing on the "First Founding" Chapters such as the Iron Hands, Raven Guard, and Imperial Fists, along with the Black Templars - we'll get to other Chapters later).


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#8
Claws and Effect

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Is there anything already in the rules to differentiate between chapters, or does it act like an Imperial Fist, Salamander, and Raven Guard are all identical?

#9
Brother Tyler

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Skills are the only real difference, except for Space Wolves (because of the nature of their Scouts/recruits). So I don't see a need to impose further rules.

 

The only things that might creep in are things similar to the Space Wolves, but only for really good reasons. And maybe some additional weapons and equipment (e.g., I'm looking at the armouries of each of the Chapters and seeing if there is anything that is both distinct to them and appropriate for the kill team options).


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#10
Claws and Effect

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For the Raven Guard: Ex Tenebris and Armor of Shadows might work.

Nihilus is just a sniper rifle unless it is being fired at something with an Armor Value.

Swiftstrike and Murder would be awesome, but probably overpowered for a skirmish game.

#11
Brother Tyler

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Those sound like Chapter Relics or otherwise special weapons/equipment, which simply aren't appropriate in this game (unless GW gets around to adding some Hired Guns a la Necromunda).

 

I'm looking at things like inferno pistols (Blood Angels) and frostblades (Space Wolves) - things available to standard characters and not considered relics.


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#12
Doghouse

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It might be worth looking at the second edition codexs like Angels of Death for ideas and weapon profile starting points if you can. Dark Millennium and the war gear cards might give you some ideas if you can find them.  


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#13
Brother Tyler

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I'm actually looking at a more simple solution, following the pattern of the existing official factions.

 

So the Raven Guard faction might allow the Veteran Sergeant to exchange his weapons for a pair of lightning claws; the Iron Hands faction might allow the Veteran Sergeant to exchange his armour for terminator armour (he must suffer appropriate results on the Seriously Wounded chart first, though; and his weapon options would be limited; and it would be expensive - so this might be a 200 point option or something similarly expensive); the Space Wolves would have a modified fighter listing (following the lead of their special rules for the scout faction) and might have frostblades; etc...

 

I'm not looking at creating new weapons. I'm just looking at lore-appropriate changes based on the available units. The only weapons/wargear I can think of that aren't currently available in the official Shadow War: Armageddon rules are the eviscerator, combat shield, power lance and the grav-gun. I'm not sure anyone would really want a power lance (unless we give the White Scars an option to take a biker as a special operative), and I'm not sure that the grav-gun is balanced for the game. I'm not sure that it's not, mind you, but the omission by GW seems deliberate. Chainfists exist, so the eviscerator should be easy to adapt. A combat shield is just a watered down storm shield. Oh, and I supposed special issue ammunition needs to be considered, though the Space Marine Scout faction can take a Veteran special operative who doesn't have that option, so maybe not. Lastly, Terminator heavy weapons appear to have been deliberately omitted, keeping that special operative somewhat manageable.

 

Some of the Chapters probably won't have any special things about them, such as the Dark Angels, Ultramarines, Black Templars, and Imperial Fists. The White Scars might be in this boat, too. All of those Chapters would have their own skill charts, but their lore and rules in standard Warhammer 40,000 don't appear to justify special gimmicks for Shadow War: Armageddon.

 

Practically speaking, things aren't nearly as difficult as my first post suggests. The Space Marine Scouts faction lays out a pretty clear template and GW thought pattern on balancing Space Marine sub-factions (i.e., skills and nearly non-existent Chapter rules).


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#14
Brother Tyler

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So the basic work that needs to be done is to build the missing skill trees.

 

So far we have:

  • Ultramarines (under the Sons of Guilliman Chapter)

  • Blood Angels

  • Salamanders

  • White Scars

  • Space Wolves

  • Dark Angels (under the Angels of Redemption Chapter

Notable gaps include the Black Templars and the Raven Guard (represented by the Raptors Chapter, who were present during the Third War for Armageddon). The Imperial Fists and Iron Hands, too, were missing (and no identified Successors of those Legions are known to have participated in the campaign).

 

So we need to develop skill trees for:

  • Black Templars

  • Imperial Fists

  • Iron Hands

  • Raven Guard

Thoughts for the Raven Guard skill tree are being discussed here (I've provided my initial input therein).

 

I've also seen that some homegrown rules have been developed for the Black Templars, but those are for them as a separate faction, so I'm not going to look at them until after I have a chance to consider my initial thoughts on the Black Templars:

 

BLACK TEMPLARS

 

Trooper:  Combat, Ferocity, Muscle

Specialist:  Ferocity, Guerilla, Muscle, Shooting

Leader:  Combat, Ferocity, Guerilla, Agility, Muscle, Shooting

 

IMPERIAL FISTS

 

Trooper:  Ferocity, Muscle, Shooting

Specialist:  Ferocity, Muscle, Shooting, Stealth

Leader:  Combat, Ferocity, Guerilla, Muscle, Shooting, Stealth

 

IRON HANDS

 

Trooper:  Ferocity, Guerilla, Shooting

Specialist:  Ferocity, Guerilla, Muscle, Shooting

Leader:  Combat, Ferocity, Guerilla, Muscle, Shooting, Stealth

 

RAVEN GUARD

 

Trooper:  Guerilla, Agility, Stealth

Specialist:  Guerilla, Muscle, Shooting, Stealth

Leader:  Combat, Ferocity, Guerilla, Agility, Shooting, Stealth

 

Those are just my initial thoughts.

 

Imperial Fists Troopers and Leaders match their Salamanders counterparts.

Iron Hands Leaders match Salamanders and Space Wolves Leaders.

Raven Guard Leaders match Sons of Guilliman (Ultramarines), Blood Angels, and White Scars Leaders.

 

I'm not really worried about the Leaders matching other Chapters' Leaders, since there are seven skills and Leaders are only lacking one of the skills.

 

The [Imperial Fists] Troopers, though, might need to be tweaked. Perhaps Ferocity needs to be exchanged for Combat...?

 

I suppose the Raven Guard Leaders matching 3 other Chapters' Leaders might need to be discussed.


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#15
Brother Tyler

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Okay, I put a lot of work into this over the last few days. Here are my initial stabs. They're pngs of fairly large size, so I've hidden them (simply click on the "Hidden Content" buttons to see each).

Page 1 (basic Space Marine kill team rules)
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Page 2 (Space Marine weapon and equipment lists)
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Page 3 (weapons and equipment rules - ammunition and basic weapons)
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Page 4 (weapons and equipment rules - hand-to-hand weapons)
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Page 5 (weapons and equipment rules - hand-to-hand weapons continued, heavy weapons, miscellaneous, pistols, special weapons)
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Page 6 (weapons and equipment rules - specialized equipment)
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Page 7 (Space Marines special operatives)
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Page 8 (skills)
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Page 9 (skills continued)
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Page 10 (Chapter Honours - Black Templars, Blood Angels, Dark Angels)
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Page 11 (Chapter Honours - Imperial Fists, Iron Hands, Raven Guard, Salamanders)
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Page 12 (Chapter Honours - Space Wolves, Ultramarines)
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Page 13 (Chapter Honours - White Scars)
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This is by no means a finished product.

Page 2 shows a number of entries in red text. These are things that I've added because they are in various Adeptus Astartes codices. Many of them are also in the Chaos Space Marines codex, but that faction's list for Shadow War: Armageddon don't include them. Personally, I think that they should be added to that faction's list. The others are new things that appear in Chapter codices (e.g., the glaive encarmine and frost blades). Some of these do appear in other faction rules (e.g., the eviscerator), so the rules and points for them are copied from those factions (Games Workshop appears to have followed this practice, so I've simply followed suit). I'm very concerned about the special issue ammunition since the Veteran special operative [for the Space Marine Scouts faction] lacks this item, even though they should have them according to the codex. I'm also very concerned about the graviton weapons, both in terms of whether or not they should even be included as well as the rules/points.

The skill trees are as I proposed above. I changed the Angels of Redemption and Sons of Guilliman sub-factions to Dark Angels and Ultramarines, respectively.

I decided upon "Chapter Honours" as a replacement for Chapter Tactics. These provide three basic items (not necessarily all three for each Chapter, mind you). First, some fighters have access to weapons and equipment that aren't available to other Chapters (e.g., the Space Wolves can take frost blades). Second, some Chapters have special rules; and these tend to be watered down versions of Chapter Tactics (but not always). Third, some Chapters have new fighters, usually as special operatives, but in one case a standard fighter option is replaced (that's the Space Wolves, following the example of the Space Marines Scouts faction rules for the Space Wolves). My intent overall was to represent the special character of each Chapter without going overboard. The ultimate intent is that each Chapter can be a little different from all of the others, but that they should all remain balanced both with each other and with the Chaos Space Marines (who have access to Marks of Chaos). I'm most concerned that the Raven Guard and Ultramarines are underwhelming, but there are probably other things that I'm not seeing or that I failed to address appropriately.

I know that some other group has come up with homegrown rules for the Black Templars, but I haven't actually looked at them. Now that I've moved this project to this stage, I'll take a look at those other rules to see how they compare.

I'm not concerned about typos and formatting right now (though I'm sure there are plenty).

Your feedback is appreciated. And the finished product will be available as a downloadable pdf.

Follow-on actions from here include the Deathwatch (contingent upon the skills in this project) and the Legio Bolter & Chainsword (also contingent upon the skills in this project). We'll also look at other Chapters such as those covered in the Badab War campaign.
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#16
Brother Tyler

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And I just realized that one oversight was the maximum number of models that may be in the kill team (since the pdf for the expanded factions doesn't indicate maximum kill team sizes).

A rough estimate is that it needs to be higher than 5 (the max size for the Grey Knights, these guys are a bit less potent) but less than 10 (power armoured Space Marines should be more potent than their Scout brothers. So I'm going to arbitrarily say "7" is the answer right now, pending revision from playtesting.

Building a baseline kill team (Veteran Sergeant with bolter, 3 Space Marines with bolters, 1 Space Marine Gunner with heavy bolter) comes out to 1,000 points exactly. That was a complete accident, but I'll roll with it.

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#17
Panzer

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10 guys is fine imo. PA CSM can have up to 10 guys as well (although they don't have ATSKNF).

 

A thing i noticed is, you mention "If the Scout is equipped with a heavy bolter, missile launcher, or sniper rifle, he becomes a Space Marine Gunner..." but the Scouts can't even take any Special Weapons or Heavy Weapons so that'll never happen. And...that's good. I don't think we want to face a team with 5 Scouts with Missile Launcher plus the regular Space Marine Gunner or something silly like that. :P

 

Also I see a possible balance problem if we give Space Marines ATSKNF and chapter specific buffs. It's the same trap the codex writer stepped into when writing the 7e codices. Too many free special rules. If we do that we should definitely raise their costs compared with PA CSM or start writing Legion lists were all Legion CSM get fearless (immune to pinning like Tyranids)....and then we are back to the 7e 40k madness where too many armies pretty much ignore half of the rules that were supposed to keep tougher foes in line.
 

Lets compare it to similar units:

 - a PA CSM with Bolter costs 155p. Without ATSKNF so they can get easily pinned by enemys to keep them in line even if they can't kill them as easily. They get Marks which is fine since in your draft Marines get Chapter Honours.

 - a PA GK with Storm Bolter costs 175. With ATSKNF. They have the Hammerhand Psychic Ability which is pretty nice and potentially just takes out anyone he manages to wound in close combat.

 

So PA SM with Chapter Honours and  ATSKNF should be closer to the GK point costs than having the same costs as CSM. Also since they can simply get Scouts and turn them into PA SM after 3 games they have MUCH easier access to those than CSM or GK which should also raise their point cost. So I'd argue they should cost the same or more than the GK troops (always calculated with Bolter costs added since GK always have their Storm Bolter by default).


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#18
Brother Tyler

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Before we worry about raising costs, we need to explore whether or not the Chapter Honours special rules are balanced enough. I watered most down considerably from what we see in the Chapter Tactics (which doesn't necessarily mean that they're not overpowered). Keep in mind the special rule that Chaos Space Marine Aspiring Champions have. That is where the Chapter Honours really need to be balanced against.

 

The Imperial Fists, for example, can parry slightly better, but that only matters to models equipped with swords. They also fire bolter weapons better, but that requires them to group together, which renders them vulnerable.

 

To be fair, I worry about the cost of the White Scars bikes (too low?) and the Terminators (Iron Hands and Space Wolves).

 

Most of the others are, I think, slight buffs that are characterful, but of more limited use. They're nice, but not nearly as nice as a blanket +1 I (Mark of Slaanesh) or other Marks.

 

And one other oversight was the lack of the Noisy rule for Space Marine bikes (that will be fixed in the next version).


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#19
Lysimachus

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Overall, I like this a lot! Good choices on the Skill trees and the Chapter rules look solid. A few small points struck me as odd;

 

I wonder if some of the Chapter specific wargear could be simplified, (i.e. Frostblades, Glaives, etc could probably be a single entry with a variety of fluff?)

 

It seems odd that the SW can have a Termi Sgt from the get go, but IH have to wait until they're injured? I get that it's a fluffy thing to be able to upgrade IH midway, but I think they should probably also have the option from the top?

 

Movement on Bikes seems a bit low, given that some characters on foot can move 5". I know they have Turbo-boost so maybe it's not a problem but that presumably has some drawback that hasn't been mentioned? I'd perhaps be inclined to give them a higher basic movement but limit them by stating that they can only move at ground level. That's quite a handicap in Necromunda/SW:A but it just feels completely wrong to imagine players sending these massive machines roaring up narrow, flimsy ladders! :D


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#20
Eddie Orlock

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Movement on Bikes seems a bit low, given that some characters on foot can move 5". I know they have Turbo-boost so maybe it's not a problem but that presumably has some drawback that hasn't been mentioned? I'd perhaps be inclined to give them a higher basic movement but limit them by stating that they can only move at ground level. That's quite a handicap in Necromunda/SW:A but it just feels completely wrong to imagine players sending these massive machines roaring up narrow, flimsy ladders! biggrin.png

I was going to comment on this when I saw your comment. Also, is the intent of turbo-boosting to stack with running to allow a 24" move? As a rules model there have been bike implementations in necromunda in the past, as well as 2nd ed. While adding too much fiddly detail can be a problem, I'd miss the 'push your luck' aspect of the skid turn rules. Delete turbo-boost and up basic movement to 10"?

I'd concur with an explicit ban on ladder use and obstacle hopping while mounted. I might compromise on the notion of the biker treating ladders as 'Extremely difficult terrain' representing the dismounted biker literally strapping the bike to his back and carrying it up the ladder and remounting. Perhaps hopping obstacles could call for a moto-x initiative check?

As to no noise? Electric bikes? If noise, test every turn, or in ref to above always move as though in extreme terrain to represent the poor lug pushing the thing while it's turned off until the alarm is sounded in a raid?

The 'Vangaurd Vet.' operative probably needs his movement stat increased to 8" to match the Seraphim who also use jump packs. Also, the perhaps amend the name of the profile from 'Assault Marine' to 'Vangaurd Vetran'

The frost blade weapon type selection rules contain a copy&paste artifact referring to it as a glaive. Speaking of frost blades, haven't they previously been modeled as some kind of hybrid power-chainsword? Should they have 'Noisy' too? Frost Swords should probably have 'Parry'.

Perhaps Swords Encarmine could have 'Parry' to represent their finesse and give a reason to select them over the axe version. The Axe probably needs a tone down or draw back in general when compared to the eviscerator on the same page. Also, remove the reference to 'failed' attack rolls. This game used 2nd ed style combat resolution and specific attacks neither succeed nor fail, but rather provide choice as to which die is highest and provide critical and fumble liabilities. That master crafting allows you to re-roll a die and perhaps mitigate a fumble is fine.

As noted above, about scouts and no access to heavy weapons and an orphan promotion provision. I'd move the sniper rifle to the basic weapons list, mirrors the official Inquisition list.

Hellfire bolts likely either need a core book reference or a weapon profile.

Lascannons used to be a sickening 2d6 tank-busting wounds. Would this be too broken to return to?

Why are plasma cannons easier to hit with at short range? This feels semi-unique amongst 'heavy weapons'.

Could it be fair to re-flavour bionics a bit? Instead of helping the marine get up faster, what if we wrote a rule to reduce the risk of them going down in the first place. "When rolling injuries for Models with bionics after wounding them, roll 2d6 and select the lowest score. Models with bionics test to recover or go out while down normally."

Raven Guard: Strike from the Shadows. I'd add a clause restricting them to being hidden only if in a position in which they could ordinarily hide. I think I'd also replace that to hit modifier with an ability to re-roll failed stealth tests during 'raid' type scenarios. The flavour premise would be that we're not suddenly launching open battle from ambush positions, but rather forestalling the alarm until we've infiltrated the position. Essentially an improvement to the infiltration mini-game rather than the presumption that it's already happened.

Consider re-naming 'fight on the move' to 'hit and run', also the mechanics read oddly when compared to both prior implementations of the mechanic with second ed style combat rules and the close combat rules in general. Actually no, I know, make 'hit and run' a privilege that comes with the bike and make 'fight on the move' a bonus to doing so.
- 'Hit and Run': A bike mounted model may forego its ability to shoot or charge into close combat later in the turn to launch a 'hit and run' attack against an enemy model it passes within 1" of during the movement phase. This attack is resolved as a round of close combat in which the biker is considered to have charged with the specific exception that the high speed brevity of the exchange only allows either fighter to roll 1 attack die regardless of the number of attacks on the fighters respective profiles or any bonuses they might have. Further, as he has to also focus on handling his machine, the biker may not parry.
- 'Fight on the move': Bikers with this rule who carry out hit and run attacks may elect to re-roll their attack die with the second result standing, even if it's worse.
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#21
Brother Tyler

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I wonder if some of the Chapter specific wargear could be simplified, (i.e. Frostblades, Glaives, etc could probably be a single entry with a variety of fluff?)


Well, they have distinct rules in normal Warhammer 40,000, so I was trying to preserve those differences. The pattern demonstrated by GW is that the verbiage doesn't change much, if at all, between faction rules.
 

It seems odd that the SW can have a Termi Sgt from the get go, but IH have to wait until they're injured? I get that it's a fluffy thing to be able to upgrade IH midway, but I think they should probably also have the option from the top?


Yes, this was bugging me, too. My chief concern (with both Chapters) is making the option expensive (resulting in a minimum-sized kill team - bad for bottle tests). Perhaps it would be cheaper for the Iron Hand Veteran Sergeant if he misses the additional battle.
 

Movement on Bikes seems a bit low, given that some characters on foot can move 5". I know they have Turbo-boost so maybe it's not a problem but that presumably has some drawback that hasn't been mentioned? I'd perhaps be inclined to give them a higher basic movement but limit them by stating that they can only move at ground level. That's quite a handicap in Necromunda/SW:A but it just feels completely wrong to imagine players sending these massive machines roaring up narrow, flimsy ladders! biggrin.png

 

Movement on Bikes seems a bit low, given that some characters on foot can move 5". I know they have Turbo-boost so maybe it's not a problem but that presumably has some drawback that hasn't been mentioned? I'd perhaps be inclined to give them a higher basic movement but limit them by stating that they can only move at ground level. That's quite a handicap in Necromunda/SW:A but it just feels completely wrong to imagine players sending these massive machines roaring up narrow, flimsy ladders! biggrin.png

I was going to comment on this when I saw your comment. Also, is the intent of turbo-boosting to stack with running to allow a 24" move? As a rules model there have been bike implementations in necromunda in the past, as well as 2nd ed. While adding too much fiddly detail can be a problem, I'd miss the 'push your luck' aspect of the skid turn rules. Delete turbo-boost and up basic movement to 10"?

I'd concur with an explicit ban on ladder use and obstacle hopping while mounted. I might compromise on the notion of the biker treating ladders as 'Extremely difficult terrain' representing the dismounted biker literally strapping the bike to his back and carrying it up the ladder and remounting. Perhaps hopping obstacles could call for a moto-x initiative check?

As to no noise? Electric bikes? If noise, test every turn, or in ref to above always move as though in extreme terrain to represent the poor lug pushing the thing while it's turned off until the alarm is sounded in a raid?


Oh, the Move I assigned was arbitrary and I fully expect it to increase. We just need to figure out what the right Move rates (base and turbo) would be.
 
No, bikes can't Run and Turbo-boost. Turbo-boost is effectively a Run move for a model on a bike.
 
Yes, the rules for terrain would have to be looked at, with some common sense outcomes. This is the chief problem with the bikes - they create complications in that they should have unique rules for movement.
 

The 'Vangaurd Vet.' operative probably needs his movement stat increased to 8" to match the Seraphim who also use jump packs. Also, the perhaps amend the name of the profile from 'Assault Marine' to 'Vangaurd Vetran'


Actually, I'm going to adjust the Move back to the normal rate and then allow the jump pack to modify the movement distance to 8". The reason for this is that I'm looking at advanced rules later, drawing upon Necromunda. The relevant example here is that it would be possible for the jump pack to be damaged during the battle, losing the benefits, so a model would have to use its base Move score.
 

The frost blade weapon type selection rules contain a copy&paste artifact referring to it as a glaive. Speaking of frost blades, haven't they previously been modeled as some kind of hybrid power-chainsword? Should they have 'Noisy' too? Frost Swords should probably have 'Parry'.


Oops!
 
As for the Noisy rule, that's problematic with the frost blades because some frost blades are chainblades while some aren't (at least, that's how it works in normal Warhammer 40,000). I suppose we could dictate one form or the other in this game, but some Space Wolves players might object.
 

Perhaps Swords Encarmine could have 'Parry' to represent their finesse and give a reason to select them over the axe version. The Axe probably needs a tone down or draw back in general when compared to the eviscerator on the same page. Also, remove the reference to 'failed' attack rolls. This game used 2nd ed style combat resolution and specific attacks neither succeed nor fail, but rather provide choice as to which die is highest and provide critical and fumble liabilities. That master crafting allows you to re-roll a die and perhaps mitigate a fumble is fine.


Oops! I was working under the assumption that simply being a "sword" meant that the weapon had the Parry rule. All "sword" weapons will have that rule explicitly added.
 

As noted above, about scouts and no access to heavy weapons and an orphan promotion provision. I'd move the sniper rifle to the basic weapons list, mirrors the official Inquisition list.


Sure.
 

Hellfire bolts likely either need a core book reference or a weapon profile.


Rules for Hellfire bolts are provided in the rulebook. The pattern for the official factions is that anything with rules given in the rulebook isn't repeated in the faction, nor is a page reference given (e.g., boltgun, power sword, telescopic sight, etc.).
 

Lascannons used to be a sickening 2d6 tank-busting wounds. Would this be too broken to return to?


The lascannon rules are identical to those for Chaos Space Marines. I think it would be inappropriate for different factions to have different rules for the same widget.
 

Why are plasma cannons easier to hit with at short range? This feels semi-unique amongst 'heavy weapons'.


Ah, I was simply following the example of the plasmagun. I have no problem with changing it, if appropriate.
 

Could it be fair to re-flavour bionics a bit? Instead of helping the marine get up faster, what if we wrote a rule to reduce the risk of them going down in the first place. "When rolling injuries for Models with bionics after wounding them, roll 2d6 and select the lowest score. Models with bionics test to recover or go out while down normally."


Well, I was trying to keep the special rules flavorful, while not being too potent. So I deliberately erred on the side of caution. I have no problem changing the rules, but want to keep the balance. Also, I think that the rule should be simple. Perhaps an alternative would be that, when rolling on the Wound table, models equipped with Extensive Bionics roll as if their T is 1 higher? They would keep their normal T, but would still have less chance of being wounded initially.
 
One of the advanced rules I was considering (for later), was to bring concepts from Necromunda (and perhaps Inquisitor) over. So certain body parts might be replaced with bionics and hits to those areas might have adverse effects (e.g., a damaged bionic leg might reduce Movement for the rest of the battle) without necessarily incurring the normal injury penalties. We're not ready for that discussion yet, but I'm trying to keep some options open with the rules at this point so that later expansion is possible.
 

Raven Guard: Strike from the Shadows. I'd add a clause restricting them to being hidden only if in a position in which they could ordinarily hide. I think I'd also replace that to hit modifier with an ability to re-roll failed stealth tests during 'raid' type scenarios. The flavour premise would be that we're not suddenly launching open battle from ambush positions, but rather forestalling the alarm until we've infiltrated the position. Essentially an improvement to the infiltration mini-game rather than the presumption that it's already happened.


Agreed on the first part. I need to look at the second part more so that I understand the suggestion and its implications better before I can come to an opinion on it.
 

Consider re-naming 'fight on the move' to 'hit and run', also the mechanics read oddly when compared to both prior implementations of the mechanic with second ed style combat rules and the close combat rules in general. Actually no, I know, make 'hit and run' a privilege that comes with the bike and make 'fight on the move' a bonus to doing so.
- 'Hit and Run': A bike mounted model may forego its ability to shoot or charge into close combat later in the turn to launch a 'hit and run' attack against an enemy model it passes within 1" of during the movement phase. This attack is resolved as a round of close combat in which the biker is considered to have charged with the specific exception that the high speed brevity of the exchange only allows either fighter to roll 1 attack die regardless of the number of attacks on the fighters respective profiles or any bonuses they might have. Further, as he has to also focus on handling his machine, the biker may not parry.
- 'Fight on the move': Bikers with this rule who carry out hit and run attacks may elect to re-roll their attack die with the second result standing, even if it's worse.


Oh, I don't like "Fight and Move" and I'm not at all averse to changing it to "Hit and Run." My only concern is not giving a generic name (i.e., something that might apply to other factions, even if that isn't until later) to a rule that should be specific to one faction. I do have problems with the rule as I've written it, though, so it might need some adjustments. Overall, though, I think the finished rule should be relatively simple.

Thanks for the feedback so far. I'll incorporate the sure-thing suggestions into the working version of the rules.

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#22
CorvusFerox

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heyho,

at first, thank you for thinking through so much stuff.
I want to participate too and give my opinion:

Pls take out the scouts as recruits.
i know its fitting.. but you see GW's intention on most of the lists:
Killteam consist of 1 plastic box of miniatures (okay.. Necrons are 2 boxes if you want their recruits)
why dont just slap in the trooper statline marine and take away the pistol and/orcc-weapon option for a 10 point reduce like tau pathfinder?
also: pls give the bloodclaws WS and BS 3 as recruits.. they are scout initiate level of combat experience.
 


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#23
Eddie Orlock

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The 'Vangaurd Vet.' operative probably needs his movement stat increased to 8" to match the Seraphim who also use jump packs. Also, the perhaps amend the name of the profile from 'Assault Marine' to 'Vangaurd Vetran'

Actually, I'm going to adjust the Move back to the normal rate and then allow the jump pack to modify the movement distance to 8". The reason for this is that I'm looking at advanced rules later, drawing upon Necromunda. The relevant example here is that it would be possible for the jump pack to be damaged during the battle, losing the benefits, so a model would have to use its base Move score.
...

Lascannons used to be a sickening 2d6 tank-busting wounds. Would this be too broken to return to?

The lascannon rules are identical to those for Chaos Space Marines. I think it would be inappropriate for different factions to have different rules for the same widget.

I appreciate the sentiment behind detailed jump pack implementation and a return to really old jump pack rules would make me feel all nostalgic for the games I played as a teenager, but if one of the guiding design philosophies for this is to align our implementations with those of the current citadel studio, adjusting the move value appears more consistent. See pg 5 under 'Raptor', pg 29 under 'Interceptor', and pg 65 under 'Seraphim'. Pg. 71 under 'Vanguard Veteran' appears curiously anomalous here, but based on the consistency of the other three implementations I'd figure it for a typographical error.
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#24
Brother Tyler

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Pls take out the scouts as recruits.
i know its fitting.. but you see GW's intention on most of the lists:
Killteam consist of 1 plastic box of miniatures (okay.. Necrons are 2 boxes if you want their recruits)
why dont just slap in the trooper statline marine and take away the pistol and/orcc-weapon option for a 10 point reduce like tau pathfinder?


I have to admit, my initial reaction was, "hell no!" and I was coming up with examples of the non-single box kill team (Chaos Space Marines, Craftworld Eldar, Necrons, and Inquisition).

Then I thought about it some more and realized that the idea has potential. Foremost would be that it would clearly distinguish this faction from the official Space Marine Scouts faction. Also, it would give the Black Templars something distinct (i.e., if we replace the standard new recruit with a power armoured Space Marine for the main list, the Black Templars will replace that new choice with their scout/neophyte).

The example for this is the Grey Knights, who require the sacrifice of a promethium cache in order to get a new recruit.

So I think it's something we can do. The wargear options will be limited, and they'll lack access to advances.
 

also: pls give the bloodclaws WS and BS 3 as recruits.. they are scout initiate level of combat experience.


On this one, though, the answer is no. The stat lines need to be consistent across the range of factions and the Blood Claws are simply power armoured versions of the more commonly scout-armoured Scouts of other Chapters. This is a point where the stat lines for a unit in Shadow War: Armageddon don't match up neatly to their Warhammer 40,000 counterpart.
 
 

The 'Vangaurd Vet.' operative probably needs his movement stat increased to 8" to match the Seraphim who also use jump packs. Also, the perhaps amend the name of the profile from 'Assault Marine' to 'Vangaurd Vetran'

Actually, I'm going to adjust the Move back to the normal rate and then allow the jump pack to modify the movement distance to 8". The reason for this is that I'm looking at advanced rules later, drawing upon Necromunda. The relevant example here is that it would be possible for the jump pack to be damaged during the battle, losing the benefits, so a model would have to use its base Move score.
...

Lascannons used to be a sickening 2d6 tank-busting wounds. Would this be too broken to return to?

The lascannon rules are identical to those for Chaos Space Marines. I think it would be inappropriate for different factions to have different rules for the same widget.

I appreciate the sentiment behind detailed jump pack implementation and a return to really old jump pack rules would make me feel all nostalgic for the games I played as a teenager, but if one of the guiding design philosophies for this is to align our implementations with those of the current citadel studio, adjusting the move value appears more consistent. See pg 5 under 'Raptor', pg 29 under 'Interceptor', and pg 65 under 'Seraphim'. Pg. 71 under 'Vanguard Veteran' appears curiously anomalous here, but based on the consistency of the other three implementations I'd figure it for a typographical error.


Yup, the Move should be adjusted to match the other jump packers.

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#25
CorvusFerox

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Pls take out the scouts as recruits.
i know its fitting.. but you see GW's intention on most of the lists:
Killteam consist of 1 plastic box of miniatures (okay.. Necrons are 2 boxes if you want their recruits)
why dont just slap in the trooper statline marine and take away the pistol and/orcc-weapon option for a 10 point reduce like tau pathfinder?


I have to admit, my initial reaction was, "hell no!" and I was coming up with examples of the non-single box kill team (Chaos Space Marines, Craftworld Eldar, Necrons, and Inquisition).

Then I thought about it some more and realized that the idea has potential. Foremost would be that it would clearly distinguish this faction from the official Space Marine Scouts faction. Also, it would give the Black Templars something distinct (i.e., if we replace the standard new recruit with a power armoured Space Marine for the main list, the Black Templars will replace that new choice with their scout/neophyte).

The example for this is the Grey Knights, who require the sacrifice of a promethium cache in order to get a new recruit.

So I think it's something we can do. The wargear options will be limited, and they'll lack access to advances.
 

also: pls give the bloodclaws WS and BS 3 as recruits.. they are scout initiate level of combat experience.


On this one, though, the answer is no.

 


Yeah,sry..it sounded like i was bragging, but i am really impressed how detailed you already included my thoughts on Servo-marines for shadow war.
I gave it a second thought too and agree totally to give Space wolves their WS/BS4 blood claws as ''almost'' Grey hunters and Black templars their Neophytes.

and i messed up in my ''rant'' with the 1box-killteams. You are right that there is more then 1 killteam who needs 2 boxes to get the full startrooster.

Anyway.. great work you put in there..i will gladly test the Raven Guard portion of the rules when i get my models for it (currently playing a Night Lords Killteam)

Is anyone interrested in ''fixing'' the campaign system to be fair for every faction after the marines get a good list here?







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