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Q: 8th edition if TWC is removed, how are we compensated?


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#1
Caldersson

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So I've been reading/hearing rumors that 8th edition will remove TWC as from what little I understand is that they want to go thematic with the armies following the lore/books I guess. I don't think I have ever read about TWC in the books, if that was GW intentions I can see them removing them. 

 

I am just curious as to how SW's will play without our star units. Will we get 30k units like outriders or jetbikes? I am trying to wrap my head around how we can be a rapid strike force without something like cavalry or bikes. Seeing as our bike units are nothing but glorified Blood Claws, and we aren't really known for jump troops. In the lore it seems we are more foot sloggers, but if that's how we operate how can we also be this rapid strike group? Unless they plan on giving SW all outflank across the board so we can close in quickly.

 

With 8th ed coming up I've been more than nervous about painting units. Being a person that plans things out, this has me uneasy as how to go forward. I am just not sure what to expect and that makes me uneasy. For now I will focus on GH/BC's but I am nervous as to what will our tactics will be.


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#2
Quixus

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Where did you get that rumour? I find it hard to believe that GW would remove a mould that sells well and still is relatively new.

 

While I would applaud removing some of the wolfiness of the VI legion, I don't see it happening.


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#3
Caldersson

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Where did you get that rumour? I find it hard to believe that GW would remove a mould that sells well and still is relatively new.

 

While I would applaud removing some of the wolfiness of the VI legion, I don't see it happening.

 

Just rumors among some sites. I think it might be people taking the "thematic army" and "taking armies back to lore" comments too far. It would make cruel sense. I am most likely taking talk to seriously as I am new and don't want my work to be swiped aside so early.


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#4
Hrolf the Cunning

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I think it is almost impossible that they will take TWC away, relatively new plastic kit that I imagine sells well also. I have an ulterior motive in making this comment, Im not a huge fan of TWC and hope that by making such a comment I jinx them
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#5
Bladewolf

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Considering Harald Deathwolf exists in the codex and in the recent campaign books , Thunderwolf Cavalry making up a core part of his company. 

Not to mention you are wrong about them never being in any books outside of codexes as well  Thunder from Fenris follows a pack of 3 Thunderwolf Cavalry Riders ... 

This rumor is Baseless 
 



#6
Caldersson

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Considering Harald Deathwolf exists in the codex and in the recent campaign books , Thunderwolf Cavalry making up a core part of his company. 

Not to mention you are wrong about them never being in any books outside of codexes as well  Thunder from Fenris follows a pack of 3 Thunderwolf Cavalry Riders ... 

This rumor is Baseless 
 

 

Considering how fast we are getting rid of Wolf Lords, even if they have formations, I think Harald Deathwolf is a minor obstacle for GW if they wished. He doesn't have a model either, which makes him even more vulnerable than Sven and Ironwolf both had manuals for conversion IIRC. At this point I am putting no faith in the logic "there is a WL, so that keeps them safe".

 

I planned on using Deathwolves formation for my own, but have to wait for 8th ed now. Although I agree with Hrolf the Cunning, and slightly hope he jinx's them, TWC models are not my flavor and I will substitute them with outriders. Just hope that Outriders aren't brought to 40k or might have to find something else. If they do go away though, the whole plan of surprise and rapid assault goes out the window with no replacement. edit: To clarify I'm not saying I hate TWC units, but merely their models. Riding giant wolves seems outlandish and low/petty/insincere(?) imo. TWC may be our brothers and we ride them like a common horse.

 

I have never heard of "Thunder from Fenris" until now, then I saw it was a ebook. I don't read ebooks, so I unfortunately never read it. Wonder if GW will ever print those as tangible books.


Edited by Caldersson, 16 April 2017 - 08:09 AM.

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#7
Bladewolf

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So  you started a baseless rumor because you  dont like TWC ?  


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#8
Caldersson

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So  you started a baseless rumor because you  dont like TWC ?  

 

 

 

I don't like the TWC models, I value their use and it is a THE core part of both of my current projects (deathpack and deathwolves). The obliteration of them would cripple my plans and cause the way I wish to play to be nullified. Why I am upset if they are removed from game and hope that if they are removed we are given something in exchange that performs the same role. 

 

Hating a model and hating a unit are two different things. Although I see how my message could be wrongly taken. I edited it to clarify.

 

edit: As for starting a rumor, I did not start it. I wouldn't want to cut my own lifeline. The first message and all my messages are of worry and not of casting a shadow. 


Edited by Caldersson, 16 April 2017 - 08:16 AM.

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#9
Quixus

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Just rumors among some sites. I think it might be people taking the "thematic army" and "taking armies back to lore" comments too far. It would make cruel sense. I am most likely taking talk to seriously as I am new and don't want my work to be swiped aside so early.

Please cite your sources. Right now it does seem like you started the rumour.


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#10
Garreck

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Sounds like borrowing trouble to me. The thunderwolf cavalry are exceptionally thematic, even if a lot of folks don't like the "Wolfy McWolf-Wolf" theme. Would be a pretty incredible reversal by GW to take something like TWC away from space wolves, especially with "theme" being the supposed justification.

#11
Caldersson

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Well if people feel that TWC aren't going to go anywhere then I guess I'll take the risk in buying 150 GBP on outriders, and then either commission someone to prep and prime them or ask a favor from a nearby member... ugh I wish they sold them individually only need 7.


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#12
Garreck

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He doesn't have a model either, which makes him even more vulnerable than Sven and Ironwolf both had manuals for conversion IIRC. At this point I am putting no faith in the logic "there is a WL, so that keeps them safe".

 

To further undermine this argument...the "Wolf Lord on Thunderwolf" finecast miniature used to be sold as "Harald Deathwolf."  In the Companies of Fenris painting guide (where you'll find conversions for Sven and Ironwolf,) he's still "Harald Deathwolf."



#13
Liege

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I would honestly love for some of the 'Wolf' parts of our line-up to be removed and replaced with Viking elements and I think I'd be somewhat hard pressed for people that disagree considering how incredibly awesome the 30k Wolves are. So if they removed TWC and replace it with a long-boat esque type vehicle or something a bit less silly-sounding I'd be ecstatic. 

 

 

8th edition is improving melee in general isn't it? We're the assault legion, don't be concerned brothers, be excited!


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Where do your a-legion-ces lay?

 

The Luna Wolves are clearly inferior to the Space Wolves. Just look at the name, the Luna Wolves are only as strong as a basic moon whereas the Space Wolves control all of Space itself. That's literally infinitely bigger and stronger than a stupid moon.

 

I am strongly concerned with the Primaris fluff, first of all, Custodians don't have gene-seed and second of all, the Vlka Fenryka only recruit from Fenris, puny Terrans die with our mighty gene-seed implanted. Good luck explaining that away GW.


#14
Caldersson

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I would honestly love for some of the 'Wolf' parts of our line-up to be removed and replaced with Viking elements and I think I'd be somewhat hard pressed for people that disagree considering how incredibly awesome the 30k Wolves are. So if they removed TWC and replace it with a long-boat esque type vehicle or something a bit less silly-sounding I'd be ecstatic. 

 

 

8th edition is improving melee in general isn't it? We're the assault legion, don't be concerned brothers, be excited!

 

Something I heard on visa vusa (I don't know exact channel it was YT selecting random videos after watching MWG Jay talk about 8th edition). He was talking about how older editions had things like double runs or charges, charging from vehicles, etc etc. Maybe we get double charging and charge from vehicles. That way we could potentially  *dice gods be in your favor* cover a lot of ground from a outflanking rhino. Rhino move forward full movement and charge ~4in twice for a total of 8in, then attack first on charges with something like rage or furious charge, could be devastating for an enemy. Maybe our GH will come standard with Chainsword, Bolt Pistol, Bolter. 

 

I hope I just didn't make a very expensive mistake on buying my "TWC" Outriders, just for them to end up as Swift Claws....


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#15
Valerian

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TWC aren't going anywhere.
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#16
Wraithwing

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A source for your rumours would be good Caldersson, then we can judge for ourselves.

As others have stated, it's highly unlikely that TWC are going anywhere (except across the battlefield, toward the traitor, heretic and xenos, very very fast).
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#17
Sentinel Guy

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In the old days we had rhino rushing blood claws and grey hunters. The 3rd ed codex was still perfectly usable in early 5th ed, even in tournaments.

I'd be perfectly happy if thunderwolves went the way of the dodo and infantry were worth it again. Thunderwolves were gimmicky junk when they first appeared and they're still stupid now. Maybe they could tone down the Wolfy Mcwolf armed with a wolfgun stuff as well.
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#18
Garreck

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I'd love to see TDA and power armor see greater utility once again, but I'm fundamentally opposed to any changes that would remove existing options. That's just as bad as what has brought us to the point where traditional configurations are no longer viable. I'm no expert on game balance but my pie-in-the-sky dream is that GW could introduce new stuff without rendering old stuff obsolete.

#19
Kasper_Hawser

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If I may try give some clarification on this... and I say that you take this with a large amount of salt. On my honor though, this is based on my conversation with my local GW branch employee and not something I came up on my own.....

 

I think the rumors that Calderson heard about TWC being removed may be linked to the rumour that there will be no more individual codexes for the non-vanilla marines, which some might interpret as Dark Angels, Blood Angels and Space Wolves being rolled into a single "battle tome" for ALL Space Marines of all variety, codex compliant or not. Like the Black Templars before, the GW mentions that this "battle tome"" will enable a "pool" of all things that Space Marines can use.

 

So how is the chapter tactics addressed? Like the recent Stormcast Eternal battletomes, there will be a section to address all the different "flavors" like their chambers with their own specific Warlord traits, relics, bonuses, spells etc. This will cover most of the current chapter tactics, as well as DA, BA and SW unique flavors. If you look at the battletome, you can see for the different flavors/colors of Stormcast, which actually differentiates them a lot to the point of NOT being just stormcast with differnet colors.

 

On the plus side, this "MIGHT" mean that Space Marine tools which were previously not available to SW, BA and DA such as Thunderfire cannons, Centurions, Storm Ravens and Stormtalons can finally be used. 

 

On the negative side, what does that mean for the unique units?

 

1) BA - Sanguinary Guard, Baal Predator, Death company, Sanguinary powers etc

2) DA - Deathwing termies, Ravenwing Black Knights, Interomancy powers etc

3) SW - Thunderwolf Cav, Stormfang/wolf, Iron Priest, rune Priests, Tempestas powers etc

 

According to the GW person I spoke to, those other unique flavors might be addressed in supplements to the single Space Marine battle tome. the example he gave was like the original Stormcast battletome, which then spawned the Extremis chamber, which was still Stormcast eternals but with the addition of Stormcast riding giant lizards.

 

Of course, the guy could be lying to me or at best, giving me his side of the story which may not have the final stamp of approval from GW. But basically, he is assuring me that while there may be no more single codexes for SW, BA and DA, our uniqueness will be preserved via supplements. Whether it is one supplement to address all the other First Founding Chapters or one supplement each is unknown. My guess it is separate supplements, to at the same time will be in line with a specific campaign or storyline relevant to them:

 

BA - Hive fleet invasion of Baal

SW - Curse of Wulfen and Wrath of Magnus

DA - Don't really know, either something related to a Fallen hunt or their own contribution to the 13th Black Crusade, or even the campaign at Piscinna trying to stop Ghazkul.

 

So to reassure Calderson, no, TWC along with other unique units of other chapters will NOT go the way of the dodo. I believe it is linked to another rumor of codexes no longer being in favor of campaign books, which is only partially true.

 

Of course, the implication that SW can suddenly use Centurions, Grav and the flying toaster Stormtalons also makes my stomach churn. But if the Black Templars can stomach their chapter being aborbed into the SM codex for 3 years now, I guess the rest of us unique snowflake "First Founding" chapters can do the same as well.

 

Again, this is my take on rumors which was then discussed with my local GW store employee. take with big plate of salt.


"The 6th Legion has a reputation." said Bear.
"All the Legions Astartes have reputations," replied Hawser.
"Not like ours," said Ogvai "We are known for our ferocity. We are thought to be feral and undisciplined. Even brother Legions consider us to be wild and bestial."
"And you're not ?" asked Hawser.
"If we need to be," said Ogvai. "but if that was our natural state, we'd all be dead by now."
He leaned down towards Hawser like a parent addressing a child.
"It takes a vast amount of self control to be this dangerous" he said.

 

Excerpt from "Prospero Burns" by Dan Abnett


#20
MaveriK

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LMAO okay so by that logic, the guy says no more individual codexes for non-vanilla marines BUT there will be a supplement that acts like a stand alone codex. Gotcha! or am I missing something here?
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#21
Kasper_Hawser

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LMAO okay so by that logic, the guy says no more individual codexes for non-vanilla marines BUT there will be a supplement that acts like a stand alone codex. Gotcha! or am I missing something here?

 

Yup. According to what I understand, basically they won't repeat the same units again if they're the same, (like most of the SW motor pool), but the supplements will get Wulfen, Deathwing Knights and Sanguinary Guard.

 

I admit I don't know where or how the units which are ALMOST the same will be addressed, like Blood Claws which are almost like crusader squads with one less WS and BS, or our wolf scouts (which are now Space Marine scouts but with special weapons), Wolf Lords (Space Wolves chapter masters/captains) and Wolf Guard battle leaders (SM mini captain).

 

for my part, I hope they're not taken away and rolled with the rest of the vanilla stuff. With luck, they will go to the supplements too in addition to the more different Wulfen, and Stormfang


"The 6th Legion has a reputation." said Bear.
"All the Legions Astartes have reputations," replied Hawser.
"Not like ours," said Ogvai "We are known for our ferocity. We are thought to be feral and undisciplined. Even brother Legions consider us to be wild and bestial."
"And you're not ?" asked Hawser.
"If we need to be," said Ogvai. "but if that was our natural state, we'd all be dead by now."
He leaned down towards Hawser like a parent addressing a child.
"It takes a vast amount of self control to be this dangerous" he said.

 

Excerpt from "Prospero Burns" by Dan Abnett


#22
Wraithwing

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Kasper, gw store staff know literally NOTHING. Seriously, those of us who scour the rumour sites for info know more than these guys well in advance.

I'd take a truckload of salt over this one.
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#23
Kasper_Hawser

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Kasper, gw store staff know literally NOTHING. Seriously, those of us who scour the rumour sites for info know more than these guys well in advance.

I'd take a truckload of salt over this one.

 

It's really not nice to say such a thing. The guy spoke to me in a friendly manner and although I don't know if what he says is true, I'm not going to judge him an outright liar or knowing NOTHING, which is really a rude thing to say to anyone.

 

Frankly, his word is as good as Natfka or the other rumor mongers at BolS, which all needs a lot of salt. 


"The 6th Legion has a reputation." said Bear.
"All the Legions Astartes have reputations," replied Hawser.
"Not like ours," said Ogvai "We are known for our ferocity. We are thought to be feral and undisciplined. Even brother Legions consider us to be wild and bestial."
"And you're not ?" asked Hawser.
"If we need to be," said Ogvai. "but if that was our natural state, we'd all be dead by now."
He leaned down towards Hawser like a parent addressing a child.
"It takes a vast amount of self control to be this dangerous" he said.

 

Excerpt from "Prospero Burns" by Dan Abnett


#24
Caldersson

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A source for your rumours would be good Caldersson, then we can judge for ourselves.

As others have stated, it's highly unlikely that TWC are going anywhere (except across the battlefield, toward the traitor, heretic and xenos, very very fast).

 

I don't have a good source as most of it is comments on various sites and FB along with grapevine. Kasper_Hawser best hit it on the head with the whole Space Marines becoming a single category and eliminating diversity or at least heavy reducing it. To the extreme that Girlyman is forcing codex-compliance among all chapters, which there is only 3 major chapters being the GK, BT and SW's. This was to streamline the game. 

 

It's not a great rumor, but seeing the hatred for TWC from other players online and calling how OP they are, I could see GW potentially removing them to eliminate the complaints.  My worry was spending a ton on Outriders as TWC, and then having them reduced to nothing.


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#25
Garreck

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Stepping back a minute and maybe answering the intent of the question instead of the question itself...never build to predicted metas.  Nobody really knows for sure what 8th edition holds.  If you want to build something competitive for 8th edition, stop what you're doing and wait until 8th edition is here (or at least until some rumors are confirmed with pictures etc.)  Otherwise...build to what you LIKE now and figure out how to use it/enjoy it when change comes.


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