Jump to content

Welcome to The Bolter and Chainsword
Register now to gain access to all of our features. Once registered and logged in, you will be able to create topics, post replies to existing threads, give reputation to your fellow members, get your own private messenger, post status updates, manage your profile and so much more. If you already have an account, login here - otherwise create an account for free today!
Photo

8th Ed - Psychic Rules - What do you think?


  • Please log in to reply
180 replies to this topic

#1
Zodd1888

Zodd1888

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 320 posts
The 8th Edition rumor topic is getting derailed about psychic speculation and it seems like there is a lot to be said. I made a similar topic about vehicles and decided to make one about psychic rules to give a free avenue of discusion so we can hopefully remain on topic. So with that said, let's start the conversation!

IMO I think RNG in psionics is so extreme in 40k. One good or bad roll can swing a game, there is no balance to psionic disciplines, and value of ML is to high in the current system due to the level of RNG. This puts psionics in a difficult spot to balance within the existing system. A consistent behavior must exist to be able to act as a median for balancing game mechanics.

Now I'm not saying that RNG needs to go away entirely, but something has to change. You've got the random roll on powers, random roll on extra WC, random perils, random denial, random to hit, random to wound. Not including the initial power generation it's still 5 to 2 for rolls versus shooting a weapon. This doesn't even touch on the variability, and severity, of perils tests to remove hundreds of points from the table from completing an action that is balanced against the high point costs of a unit.

So what I would like to see is a reduction in variability and the representation of a Psykers force of will.

Reduction in variability would mean power selection, within reason. If super powers still exist like invisibility then any psyker can select ML/2 rounded down from their primary disciplin. Any
remaining powers are then randomly generated from your selected disciplines.

This would help to reduce variability of powers to allow for better long term strategies, versus the current ad hoc nature of rolling powers reduces the value of pre-game planning. Additionally it also improves the few things that have ML4, or the ability to increase ML adding further uniqueness to extremely powerful Psykers.

Regarding the representarion of a Psykers force of will I'd like to see leadership checks return. This is reflective of the concept og Charisma from D&D. A failed leadership roll would mean that your opponent would have the ability to do an opposed leadership check using a selected charaxter model. If the opponent is successful the power is denied and if unsuccesful the power goes off normally. This seems the most fair, interactive, and consistent method of casting/denying.

Regarding perils, I believe it could still exist in the above system in a unique way.

Denial by a character with a ML means they have effectively deflected or dispersed the influence of the casting Psykers will. As punishment you are subjected to a Perils test.

Denial by a character without a ML means they have effectively overwhelmed the influence of the casting Psykers will by their owm. As punishment you may lose all remaining powers for the turn if you fail another leadership check. Think of it as the killing desire of a Tyranid, or the Will of the Emperor casting the opposition out by force.

All I'm saying is there are interesting and unique ways within the system to adjust the Psychic Phase in 8th. This can create meaningful interactions between players, limit dice thunder, and create more consistency through the phase

Either way it's all in fun, so what do you think or want from 8th?

#2
Valerian

Valerian

    ++ EQUITES ALATUS ++

  • ++ MODERATI ++
  • 8,235 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Boone, North Carolina
  • Chapter Name: Space Wolves and Grey Knights

Thanks for starting the thread.  To be honest, I'd be completely satisfied with the Age of Sigmar magic rules being ported over for use in 8e; they're effective without being needlessly complex.  The Rules would have one decent offensive power and one decent defensive power that any Psyker from any Faction could opt for.  Each Psyker entry would also have any additional Psychic Power options noted on its war scroll/dataslate.  A unit's Mastery Level would determine how many Powers the unit can attempt to cast in your turn, and how many enemy Powers the unit can attempt to Deny in the adversary's turn.  Each power has a Casting Level that you have to exceed on 2d6 to successfully cast, so routine Powers (i.e. Warp Charge 1 powers) get pretty low Casting Levels, like a 5 or a 6 to succeed.  Very powerful  (Warp Charge 3) powers might require a 10 or more to succeed, so they wouldn't be dominating the game.  Any Power can be Denied by a Psyker within 18" who rolls higher on 2d6 than you rolled on your attempt to cast (as long as they haven't yet met their Deny attempt limit yet).

 

There are several things that are nice about this system.  Every individual Psyker can bring value to an army list without dominating the game.  You know what your Power options are in advance, so can plan for them during list building.  You don't have to bring extra Psychic units to act as "batteries" for the others that rolled for better random Powers.  No annoying Perils of the Warp to deal with, and Leadership characteristic has no effect, so Ork Warpheads are just as capable as Elder Farseers.

 

V


  • DanPesci, Sete, foamy248 and 1 other like this

#3
Swarmlord Unleashed

Swarmlord Unleashed

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 1,449 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Simi Valley, California, USA
  • Chapter Name: Hive Fleet Chimaera, Renegades

I would like a combination of AOS's system and 40k's lores, because I don't think that there is enough diversification to cover the many psykers in 40k. 


Edited by Cryptix, 20 April 2017 - 01:34 AM.

Well would you look at the time, it's zombie o'clock!
sml_gallery_55866_13614_5370.jpgL_T_3_2017_Badge_02_Chaplain.jpggallery_4664_12529_16642.jpggallery_60566_6038_377.gif


#4
MysticTemplar

MysticTemplar

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 243 posts
  • Gender:Not Telling
  • Location:Mercury
  • Chapter Name: The Wardens of Mercury
Personally, I think that two things need to happen for psychic powers - flatten the power curve for powers (so you don't have ridiculous outliers like invisibility), and remove random rolling for powers. With a flat power curve across the disciplines, this should work.

Edited by MysticTemplar, 20 April 2017 - 02:21 AM.

ETL_2016_Banner_01_Oath_of_Moment.jpg


#5
chapter master 454

chapter master 454

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 2,188 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Fife
  • Chapter Name: Angels of Justice

there definitely needs to be a removable of RNG to the psychic phase. TO be honest you could just call it the 'Inner Ork Phase' and you wouldn't be wrong as it is just a lesser version of ork RNG silliness (without the humour).

 

Right now I would akin the psychic phase to hearthstone in terms of RNG: A few good rolls and you win. Oh you got invis? GG WP, later (In fact wasn't there some tournaments restricting the ability to take invis only once). On the reverse, most times you roll you ether get average that isn't worth it or just something trash. So 2/3 is not great for the points it take to bring good ones and the ones that are run are so powerful their power is in removing the random element.

 

Powers need to be reigned in. Powers we bring should not be '1 on the table is trash power while 5 and 6 are what you want' but instead something we bring to add utility to our army. In fact I find the idea of witchfire powers to be extremely underwhelming due to one reason: They need to HIT. That is on top of how easy it is to deny witchfires or even not care about them unless they are blasts.

Then we move ourselves over to blessings...OH BOY. Eldar practically make their living off these. Literally. 'Cast Guide...Fortune...shroud and uh...know what for the Lulz doom on your guys...and oh I'll do that with all my dudes...and done' Good luck chuckle nuts stopping them as now those witches now prove their value because why bother trying to random out powerful spells when you can just make it so it is near impossible for your big guns to not do damage. In effect why bring a brightlance-esqe power when you can just make your brightlance there pretty much a crack shot and be effectively the psykers personal cannon. A pretty far claim but the point is there.

 

Witchfire powers need to be buffed heavily and denials of them should not be possible. In effect, as I write, to think of it witchfire actually has to go through an additional saving throw to hit the enemy. Get that, why bring a weapon that lets them have 2 saving throws when you can buff your lascannon/heavy bolter or whatever compensator you have to be effectively you psykers arm instead. Unless you are one of the god psykers who get to bring Str D beams, don't bring witchfire.

 

Maledictions barely get any play because they are often used as lulz and have more effect again than witchfire.

 

Main issues: Random powers (and the only time often psykers appear is when they ether just bring their primaris power to use or have some form of default spell...puppies I be looking your way)

I don't mind if you have a psyker want to have a battle of minds but otherwise how come a guardsman can deny tigurius giving Big R to the G his Invis just by saying 'please no'. Seems a little odd.

 

ah well...I suppose I get heated easily. I just get a little bothered when they clearly don't test mechanics by actually letting players try them and actually you know, ask them what they think (and not just have matt ward roll off against himself to decide if the rules he conceived from his smurf addled brain are good).


  • GAZ_AV_NZ likes this

http://www.bolterand...rk-in-progress/ my own chapter, still working on it
"The objective of playing a game is to win. The point of playing a game is to have fun. Never confuse the two"

What do you call an Imperial Guardsman with a laser sight? Twin-Linked!

 

 


#6
Sonoftherubric21

Sonoftherubric21

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 954 posts

I am glad im not the only person that feels this way, Psykers and powers are so very "swingy" that its incredibly hard to gauge, and almost impossible to plan for as you can BEGIN the game at a handicap (roll bad spells on an expensive sorcerer.....Damn it Ahriman...)

 

There are games I have had Ahriman obliterate triple his points cost within a turn or so.......and then other games where my incredibly expensive sorcerer lord who's been doing this 10k years has migraines and gets a brain hemorrhage the first turn.

 

I really hope 8th does something substantial in regards to the change of the system, if it ends up akin to AOS I wouldn't mind, as it really feels like even if you SPAM wizards in that game....each has a place.  

 

The primary spells (bolt/shield) are neat and useful in of themselves but limiting a spell to being cast one time really encourages variety so you don't take 10 wizards with the same spell, this could easily work in 40k, allow sorcerers to pick their lores and their spells, rebalance said spells to be within a reasonable power curve. and make casting a LD check, or some kind of check to cast (opposed or un-opposed).  

 

Even if they pick spells, it wont matter when 10 models take Prescience, only one can cast it. You would be wasting points. And the number of spells they can cast is equal to their Mastery level making them more then just glorified batteries.

 

Of course this is all speculation, but I feel that GW will most assuredly re-work the psychic phase in some substantial way, how is anyone's guess......


  • GAZ_AV_NZ likes this

#7
Plaguecaster

Plaguecaster

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 2,459 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:New Zealand
  • Chapter Name: Death Guard
I like the AOS psychic phase and would be cool especially since the only way to unbind/ dispel spells normally is to have a wizard nearby but I hope Lores will stick around I dislike having set spells (especially when it's usually only one unique one ) I like having a wide selection of spells in each game I could possibly get though I play deathguard so my only HQ will be a m3 sorcerer and I like the new Nurgle lore so don't mind rolling for powers each game

The rule of One would be pretty good as well

Edited by teutonicavenger, 20 April 2017 - 06:43 AM.

Nurgle Abominarions: A Host of Decay Revived for 8th​.
UPDATED 29/07/17

#8
Ishagu

Ishagu

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 9,620 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Britannia, Holy Terra
  • Chapter Name: Ultramarines
One thing AoS does better is magic.
I don't want an exact copy but something similar would be interesting.
  • Plaguecaster likes this

-~Ishagu~-


#9
Race Bannon

Race Bannon

    ++ MUNUS SPECIALIS AGNITIO ++

  • ++ MODERATI ++
  • 7,515 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Area 88
  • Chapter Name: Raven Guard
Is it me, or did we do a lot of whining about how predictable the psychic phase was in 5th edition?

I think there should be a certain amount of random in this regard. That's part of the spice of a game. You know, the challenge of the unknown ^_^
  • Captain Idaho, Damo1701 and templargdt like this

"Fully dressed in the ancestral Terminator Armour of their Chapter they rise to a new level of battlefield supremacy, a level where monstrous tanks are but playthings of a child, and where Terminators, Daemons and gods stalk as equals." -Thunder and Lightning, White Dwarf 116 (UK)
gallery_6494_6331_1745.gif gallery_6494_11942_9573.png gallery_6494_6331_4817.pnggallery_6494_6331_16668.jpggallery_6494_6331_8260.pnggallery_6494_6331_2459.jpg
Index Astartes: Red Shoulders + Proudly lead farming since 8th edition +


#10
MysticTemplar

MysticTemplar

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 243 posts
  • Gender:Not Telling
  • Location:Mercury
  • Chapter Name: The Wardens of Mercury

Is it me, or did we do a lot of whining about how predictable the psychic phase was in 5th edition?

I think there should be a certain amount of random in this regard. That's part of the spice of a game. You know, the challenge of the unknown happy.png

 

I admit to not having been playing during 5th edition, but I find that randomly generating psychic powers is kind of like fielding a special weapons Marine where you have no idea what weapon they're going to have.  The difference between randomly determining what something can do vs. determining whether or not it actually does it.  The latter is fine (and, indeed, is what we have dice for), the former I find to be really frustrating, especially because I can't help but feel like certain armies fall apart without certain psychic powers, that have to be randomly rolled for.  (When I play Tyranids, and fail to roll Catalyst, I am a sad Templar.)

 

Granted, the power level of outliers does still need to be fixed.  As it currently stands, I'm unconvinced that Invisibility would be balanced at any point cost.  (Or, in other words, I don't think there's a point you can cost it at that would be fair - it would always either be obviously the thing you take, or priced out of the game.)


ETL_2016_Banner_01_Oath_of_Moment.jpg


#11
Captain Idaho

Captain Idaho

    ++ ARGENTARIUS IRACUNDUS ++

  • ++ MODERATI ++
  • 13,854 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Hampshire, England
  • Chapter Name: Ultramarines
Psychic powers can work if they're random provided all powers were useful.

More easily, I'd just give a Psychic user all the powers from a discipline then limit what they can cast to their mastery level.

Unfortunately, I think GW will neuter the psychics in the game to AoS levels. What many of you don't remember due to age (I'm a 2nd edition veteran) is 3rd had psyonics like AoS, using leadership tests instead of a 2D6 roll against a power roll. The powers were negligible and frankly psykers, an integral part of the background to 40K, became rather mundane and even ignored in favour of Chaplains etc.
  • Damo1701, Arkangilos and Waking Dreamer like this

#12
MysticTemplar

MysticTemplar

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 243 posts
  • Gender:Not Telling
  • Location:Mercury
  • Chapter Name: The Wardens of Mercury

Psychic powers can work if they're random provided all powers were useful.

More easily, I'd just give a Psychic user all the powers from a discipline then limit what they can cast to their mastery level.

Unfortunately, I think GW will neuter the psychics in the game to AoS levels. What many of you don't remember due to age (I'm a 2nd edition veteran) is 3rd had psyonics like AoS, using leadership tests instead of a 2D6 roll against a power roll. The powers were negligible and frankly psykers, an integral part of the background to 40K, became rather mundane and even ignored in favour of Chaplains etc.

 

I dunno. I think the randomness breaks down pretty quickly due to both differences between Psykers and having 'build around me' powers floating around.  Powers like Iron Arm, or Precognition are significantly more useful for a Space Marine or Daemon Prince than they are for a Primaris Psyker, for example.

 

I do kind of like your second suggestion, and I think if the power levels of the disciplines were flattened it could work well.

 

With the 3rd edition Psychic powers, was there anything fundamentally wrong with the casting mechanisms, or was it just a power level concern?  Would you be opposed to a similar system with more powerful effects?


ETL_2016_Banner_01_Oath_of_Moment.jpg


#13
DanPesci

DanPesci

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 1,772 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Edinburgh

Thanks for starting the thread.  To be honest, I'd be completely satisfied with the Age of Sigmar magic rules being ported over for use in 8e; they're effective without being needlessly complex.  The Rules would have one decent offensive power and one decent defensive power that any Psyker from any Faction could opt for.  Each Psyker entry would also have any additional Psychic Power options noted on its war scroll/dataslate.  A unit's Mastery Level would determine how many Powers the unit can attempt to cast in your turn, and how many enemy Powers the unit can attempt to Deny in the adversary's turn.  Each power has a Casting Level that you have to exceed on 2d6 to successfully cast, so routine Powers (i.e. Warp Charge 1 powers) get pretty low Casting Levels, like a 5 or a 6 to succeed.  Very powerful  (Warp Charge 3) powers might require a 10 or more to succeed, so they wouldn't be dominating the game.  Any Power can be Denied by a Psyker within 18" who rolls higher on 2d6 than you rolled on your attempt to cast (as long as they haven't yet met their Deny attempt limit yet).

 

There are several things that are nice about this system.  Every individual Psyker can bring value to an army list without dominating the game.  You know what your Power options are in advance, so can plan for them during list building.  You don't have to bring extra Psychic units to act as "batteries" for the others that rolled for better random Powers.  No annoying Perils of the Warp to deal with, and Leadership characteristic has no effect, so Ork Warpheads are just as capable as Elder Farseers.

 

V

 

I fully agree with all of this, would be way simpler, and you can actually build a list around taking a power.

 

Only 1 thing id change in 40k, is have it so a double 1 when casting causes perils (dunno if theres similar in AoS as dont play it...but i always like a 'danger' element to using the warp in 40k)... but have perils as always being just 1 automatic wound with no saves allowed (maybe some super powerful psykers e.g. eldrad are allowed a save against it..but that is included in their profile specifically)


Edited by DanPesci, 20 April 2017 - 12:06 PM.

ETL_2015_Banner_02_Custos_Fidei_01.jpg

 

DVNE - Crushing tales of space horror (In space no-one can hear you doom)


#14
Battle-Brother Tallur

Battle-Brother Tallur

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 6 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Netherlands
  • Chapter Name: Death Guard

Psychic powers can work if they're random provided all powers were useful.
More easily, I'd just give a Psychic user all the powers from a discipline then limit what they can cast to their mastery level.
Unfortunately, I think GW will neuter the psychics in the game to AoS levels. What many of you don't remember due to age (I'm a 2nd edition veteran) is 3rd had psyonics like AoS, using leadership tests instead of a 2D6 roll against a power roll. The powers were negligible and frankly psykers, an integral part of the background to 40K, became rather mundane and even ignored in favour of Chaplains etc.


I started playing during the 3rd edition and I agree with you here. I always liked psychers even back then. The last few editions psychic powers became better then it was. The randomness might not been the best option, but you did get more choices. Even with the randomness psychers became interesting choices and I usually try to fit in at least one in my army. Taking this system away and implanting something of the past or from AoS just removes your choices and leaves the psychers flat and uninteresting.

 

 

 

 


#15
Zodd1888

Zodd1888

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 320 posts
Regarding the challenge of the unknown and randomness:

It's important to appreciate the variability of importance in psychic powers.

Random powers can work for armies with a larger variety of troops and weapon options (ie. Space Marines, Eldar, etc.) as army balance isn't found in the psychic phase. For armies that rely on psychic powers as their primary means of impact on the battlefield (ie. Grey Knights, TSons, etc.) bad rolls can dramatically effect the playability during that game.

Bottom line is that if you're going to have armies that are "balanced" around the psychic phase you need consistency in the phase. If this means special rules for those specific armies then do that and keep the old system, but as is I see psychic powers still drastically disrupting game flow with the "balanced" armies if one or two bad rolls happen.

Psychic powers need to be as consistent, or I'd hope more consistent because of the costs of ML, as a Plasma weapon. Causes a wound if folly befits, but otherwise excellent impact on the battlefield.

A good Psyker costs more than a couple squads of units. Squads survive longer, shoot more, and are generally accepted as the better option from more bodies. With that in mind, Psykers hold even more risk between perils and opponents prioritizing their target.

I feel like I'm talking myself out of TSons, but no one has as cool of hats. Gimme Daemon Prince and Daemon Engine conversion kits! Finding Tomb Kings bits that arent crazy expensive for conversions is far to difficult.
  • Gentlemanloser likes this

#16
Magpie Knight

Magpie Knight

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 218 posts
  • Gender:Male
I'm not sure how effective it would be, but what if instead of removing the random power generation they instead grouped powers together differently.

So instead of having multiple different lores each with blessings, maledictions, witchfires, beams and novas grouped by flavor text the lores become more predictable. Like you could have a table for damage dealing offensive powers, a table for ranged buffs, a table for melee buffs, and a table for debuffs. The faction specific ones can stay a hodgepodge to keep some of the iconic powers, but if you have a table to roll on that you can be certain will give you some power that will broadly serve a purpose that you want it might be a nice middle ground.

Also allow all armies to roll on the lores in the core rulebook. Orks and Tyranids only having their faction specific lores sucks.

#17
Captain Idaho

Captain Idaho

    ++ ARGENTARIUS IRACUNDUS ++

  • ++ MODERATI ++
  • 13,854 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Hampshire, England
  • Chapter Name: Ultramarines

With the 3rd edition Psychic powers, was there anything fundamentally wrong with the casting mechanisms, or was it just a power level concern?  Would you be opposed to a similar system with more powerful effects?


They felt bland. Andy Chambers himself acknowledged this problem back in his Chapter Approved days.

AoS feels just as bland regarding Magic, so going back to those days would be a bad thing.

Psychics need to go beyond passive abilities and leadership tests. The current system is okay if you have a couple Psykers on the table between you, with only a couple tweaks.

Hence my suggestion that a Psyker gets all the powers in a discipline but only casts up to mastery levels.

Hell, a few tweaks could make it work for psychic armies too, though a large rebalancing is still ideal.
  • Arkangilos likes this

#18
Valerian

Valerian

    ++ EQUITES ALATUS ++

  • ++ MODERATI ++
  • 8,235 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Boone, North Carolina
  • Chapter Name: Space Wolves and Grey Knights
I'd be cool with all of the current powers and disciplines, but using the AoS mechanic for casting and denying would be perfect. The designers would just need to assign a casting level to each power (4-6 for powers that are currently WC1; 7-9 for WC2; and 10-12 for WC3). Psykers can cast as many powers as they have ML, and only one attempt per power in a given turn. That gives the best of both worlds with large variety of powers, but tied to a simple system.

#19
chapter master 454

chapter master 454

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 2,188 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Fife
  • Chapter Name: Angels of Justice

Main issue is to be honest that some powers are only good if we could actually know we have them. Biomancy has something like what? 2-3 buffs that would be awesome if we could have them without catches. It could lead to actual interesting play. Right now though you basically play draft format magic and hope you get good pulls. In essence it is like constructing the first 56 cards in your deck to work well by themselves and they have remote synergy with all the possible cards you can draft for your last 4. It always irked me.

 

"with a flick of a wrist I can snap bones and melt guns"

"Wow, really? DO it now, show me! Sounds awesome"

"eh...one sec" -rolls some dice- "Not right now though I could make you a cake if you wanted?"

"ok...what flavour?"

-Rolls dice- "Slannesh Special or Nurgle Noxious though it is random which it would be"

"go for it"

-Attempts and causes several brain hemorrhages before dying-

 

And that kids is why we don't bring psykers unless you are Magnus, Tigurius or Eldar. Is the main reason the society seems to not have many kills, psykers ether aren't taken or kill themselves! 


  • foamy248 and IronDrake28 like this

http://www.bolterand...rk-in-progress/ my own chapter, still working on it
"The objective of playing a game is to win. The point of playing a game is to have fun. Never confuse the two"

What do you call an Imperial Guardsman with a laser sight? Twin-Linked!

 

 


#20
Gentlemanloser

Gentlemanloser

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 13,246 posts

Random selection of powers needs to go.  Give them a point cost.

 

It's ridiculous that either;

 

1: You roll powers, don't get Electrodisplacement (or Invis, or whatever else you've based your list/strategy on), forfit before the first turn, shake hands and ask straight away for another game.

 

2: You force 'named' characters into your list, because they come with the Power you want.  I don't really want Draigo, but I need Gate.  And instead of fishing for it, I'll fit him in somehow.

 

 

Psychic Powers are so instrumental to list building and strategy (like Warlord powers, but that's another thread...) you need to be able to select them.  Not luck out and for this game manage to get the one/s you need...

 

 

Edit: Also all armies need to be able to do *something* in the Psychic Phase.  It's bad design to force (not the same as choosing an all CC list with no shooting... And you can still run!!) Armies to be unable to do *anything* in one entire Phase of the game.


Edited by Gentlemanloser, 20 April 2017 - 04:10 PM.

  • Arkangilos likes this
QUOTE (Seahawk @ Jul 30 2011, 05:31 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
We all feel different ways about different rules, but if you're traveling between different gaming groups or to tournaments, the only commonality is the rules as they are written. If you can get your opponent to agree with you on house-ruling something then that changes things, but until then all we can do is go by how things are written.

#21
Race Bannon

Race Bannon

    ++ MUNUS SPECIALIS AGNITIO ++

  • ++ MODERATI ++
  • 7,515 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Area 88
  • Chapter Name: Raven Guard

That's personal opinion.

 

Tthe idea of "buying" powers like wargear has merit.  Although, it does remove the randomness I personally appreciate, it's a way to literally pay for what you want the Librarian to do for your game while also not being forced to use a character.


  • Arkangilos likes this

"Fully dressed in the ancestral Terminator Armour of their Chapter they rise to a new level of battlefield supremacy, a level where monstrous tanks are but playthings of a child, and where Terminators, Daemons and gods stalk as equals." -Thunder and Lightning, White Dwarf 116 (UK)
gallery_6494_6331_1745.gif gallery_6494_11942_9573.png gallery_6494_6331_4817.pnggallery_6494_6331_16668.jpggallery_6494_6331_8260.pnggallery_6494_6331_2459.jpg
Index Astartes: Red Shoulders + Proudly lead farming since 8th edition +


#22
sturguard

sturguard

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 390 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Warrenton, VA

Which is how it used to be. However unless they balance the powers, the mechanic won't work. How much is invisibility worth, especially against an army that has little chance of dispelling it. Is it worth 100 pts? 150? Shoot its probably worth more than the cost of the librarian. A deathstar with invisibility becomes ridiculous, as is a wraithknight, or knight. Now a unit of basic space marines with invisibility isn't a big deal- so how do you balance that and assign a point value, I don't think its possible because you can't account for the unit it is being cast on and what the other armies ability is to dispel or deal with said power.

 

I think all the big powers need to be toned down dramatically where every power has merit and the difference between the best power and worst is not that great. Then you can do what another poster suggested which is let the psycher have access to all the powers in the deck but just cast one per psychic level. They really arent far off, rework 4-5 spells and the rest are fine, realistically how long would it take to make that adjustment, an hour of work?



#23
Race Bannon

Race Bannon

    ++ MUNUS SPECIALIS AGNITIO ++

  • ++ MODERATI ++
  • 7,515 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Area 88
  • Chapter Name: Raven Guard
No way without playtesting the rework. I know, I know, but it's necessary. Otherwise points are more arbitrary than they already are, which makes the whole idea of paying points for powers collapse under the weight of logic.

So, back to random because ppwers will always have an imbalance inherent by design and/or intent. So, a good general will learn to use what he had and adapt. Or go whine about it. Maybe wine about it, wink wink.

^_^

"Fully dressed in the ancestral Terminator Armour of their Chapter they rise to a new level of battlefield supremacy, a level where monstrous tanks are but playthings of a child, and where Terminators, Daemons and gods stalk as equals." -Thunder and Lightning, White Dwarf 116 (UK)
gallery_6494_6331_1745.gif gallery_6494_11942_9573.png gallery_6494_6331_4817.pnggallery_6494_6331_16668.jpggallery_6494_6331_8260.pnggallery_6494_6331_2459.jpg
Index Astartes: Red Shoulders + Proudly lead farming since 8th edition +


#24
Legionaire of the VIIth

Legionaire of the VIIth

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 332 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:U.S.A.

Personally I hate the random rolling and feel it needs to be removed. With different combinations being guaranteed we might see some variations on army lists that might never have come about without them.

 

Keep the disciplines don't just dictate which powers a particular caster has. More variety, while making balance harder, allows for different combinations to be used when considering army build and thus lead to different builds. While many people are all about min/max there are some people out there that are rather skilled at inventing new combos and winning with them that go overlooked in the more generic weblist approach. Having more to choose from increases the chances we will see some unique lists making their rounds.

 

Powers need to be balanced, no power should be on the level that using it could dictate an entire game just because of the power's use in combination with a deathstar or unit X (swinging things in your favor after playing well is not what I'm talking about but instead the casting of a spell makes unit X neigh unstoppable just because it combos to well, it should only give the unit a slight edge). Things like the often sighted Invisibility need to be tweaked or replaced with powers that are useful but not to powerful and on the reverse side some that could be considered useless need to be tweaked to make them appealing (without making them overpowered of course).

 

Those are my thoughts on it anyway.



#25
Valerian

Valerian

    ++ EQUITES ALATUS ++

  • ++ MODERATI ++
  • 8,235 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Boone, North Carolina
  • Chapter Name: Space Wolves and Grey Knights

No way without playtesting the rework. I know, I know, but it's necessary. Otherwise points are more arbitrary than they already are, which makes the whole idea of paying points for powers collapse under the weight of logic.


Yeah, I definitely don't think paying for powers is the way to go. You're already paying for the Psyker or Psychic unit, so he should come with a menu of powers available without having to pay extra points.
 

So, back to random because ppwers will always have an imbalance inherent.


But that doesn't mean we have to go back to random.

If I gave your ML2 Marine Librarian access to the whole Telepathy discipline, but then said you can cast Psychic Shriek if you roll 7+ on 2d6, Dominate requires 6+, Mental Fortitude a 4+, Terrify a 5+, Shrouding a 5+, Hallucination an 8+, and Invisibility would require 11+. You get to attempt to cast two of these powers each Psychic Phase (but only one attempt per power). Sure, you could swing for the fences and try to get Invisibility off, but your chances of succeeding are pretty low, and your opponent would still get a chance to Deny your power if they have a Psyker within 18" and roll higher on their 2d6 than you did to pass. This will still give you the option to go for the super-power, but you'd probably be more likely to go for a couple of the "low-hanging fruit" powers that are still worth having, and still worth investing in a Librarian.

 

Edit: Psychic Hoods would grant +1 to your Deny attempts, so a Librarian with a Psychic Hood would cancel an opponent's power on a tie, rather than having to beat their roll on a 2d6.

Another example would be an ML3 Grey Knights Librarian. He gets to try and cast 3 powers per Psychic Phase, or Deny 3 enemy powers if within 18" during their Psychic Phase. In his case he could try for Banishment (if facing Daemons)n on a 5+, Gate of Infinity on a 6+, Hammerhand on a 6+, Sanctuary on a a 4+, Purge Soul on a 6+, Cleansing Flame on a 9+, and Vortex of Doom on an 11+. Oh, and I forgot Force earlier, so that would be an easy 3 or 4+.

 

Nemesis Warding Saves would grant +1 to your Deny attempts, and could be combined with a Psychic Hood, if the model had both (for a total of +2 on the 2d6 roll).


  • IronDrake28 likes this




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users