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Few questions regarding a drop pod and interceptor


43 replies to this topic

#26
Slips

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Yes, since the weapons aren't turret mounted and thus do not have a 360* LoS, you'd only be able to intercept within the weapon arc of the dread - wherever thats facing at the time. The only way to allow the dread to turn and face the target during shooting is by moving him to face the target in the movement phase beforehand.


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#27
Brother Captain Spud

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We've never played it that way with the Deredeo. My group is pretty focused in what "makes sense".

The missile launcher can rotate 360°so you must still be able to fire with that.

And technically speaking the as torso of a deredeo would be able to rotate too.

I think this may be another rules dont work for the model properly situation. Without being able tp turn interceptor is essentially pointless on a deredeo as the arc is so limited.

#28
Lord Blackwood

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Thanks for clearing that up Slips 

Though you may have talked me out of grabbing a deredo ... im assuming the contemptor mortis has similar limitations ?


Edited by Bladewolf, 11 May 2017 - 10:04 AM.


#29
Brother Captain Spud

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I just read the "shooting with walkers", overwatch, and interceptor sections if the BRB.
I can post the sections but i think that is a no-no. But sory slips, your making an interpretation.

There is no restriction on the arc of the deredeo shooting with interceptor in the rules as written. So long as its in line of sight you can fire at it. Further, walkers can swivel/rotate when firing overwatch (RAW). I would argue Interceptor is essentially a special type of overwatch.

#30
Niightcloak

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You are also making an interpratation but that is almost unavoidable with that combination of rules :)
Just talk with your opponent or in your club and find a solution
Or just roll off before the game

#31
Slips

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I just read the "shooting with walkers", overwatch, and interceptor sections if the BRB.
I can post the sections but i think that is a no-no. But sory slips, your making an interpretation.

There is no restriction on the arc of the deredeo shooting with interceptor in the rules as written. So long as its in line of sight you can fire at it. Further, walkers can swivel/rotate when firing overwatch (RAW). I would argue Interceptor is essentially a special type of overwatch.

The Rules say you can Overwatch in a 360° Arc but Overwatch =/= Interceptor.

 

Pg 167 7th Ed. BRB:

 

Interceptor:

 

 

[...]Can be fired at any one unit[...] within its range and line of sight.

 

 

Couple that with the what the FAQ has to say about hull-mounted vehicle weapons in the 7th ed BRB :

Q: Is a hull-mounted weapon’s arc of fire a total of 45° or 45° to either side? The chart seems to indicate the former, but we aren’t 100% certain.

A: Hull-mounted weapons have a total firing arc of 45°.

 

Q: Are Super-heavy Walkers limited, like normal Walkers, to a 45° arc of fire from the facing of the model’s weapon?

A: Yes – they follow all the normal rules for Walkers, except when explicitly stated otherwise.

 

So, when using interceptor with dreadnoughts, check the following boxes:

  • Is it in the dreads weapon range? Y/N; if Y move to next step
  • Is it within the dreads Line of Sight? Y/N; if Y move to next step
  • If the weapon being fired is Hull-Mounted, is it within the 45° arc of the dreadnought? If this does not apply, skip this step. Y/N; if Y move to next step.
  • If all of the above conditions are met, you may perform the shooting attack.

Since the Deredeo can only skyfire/interceptor with its Hull-Mounted Autocannons/Plasma/Las and Turret Mounted Missile Launcher, then the only time you need to care about facing is with the main weapon since the turret 360° view and can fire at targets out of Line of Sight due to its own special rules.

 

As to Overwatch = Interceptor, thats essentially a houserule and we can't really debate/argue/discuss houserules in an online forum due to them either:

  • Differing from group to group
  • Not applying at all

If you need further clarification, theres always the Official Rules forum whose whole deal is to work out RAW.


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#32
Brother Captain Spud

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As i said, its your interpretation. You have not quoted a specific rule, you've just, as i did, made a number of assumptions and connected them.

I appreciate you are very active on the forum but your interpretation of unclear rules is no more official than mine. I just have the good graces to acknowledge that 1) I'm making an interpretation, and 2) the rule is unclear. Without making such disclaimers you are presenting yourself as the arbiter of the rules which isn't really appropriate. In such situations players or gaming grops must determine how they choose to play it.

Edited by Brother Captain Spud, 11 May 2017 - 08:30 PM.


#33
SkimaskMohawk

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Yea any helical interceptor has a very limited arc from the gun arms, the total being 45 degrees or a 22.5 per side. You can't have a contemptor mortis or deredeo command the entire field from the center; those guns are way too strong against even a fire raptor. You need good positioning and a number to cover the angles and movement lanes for the flyers, not one anywhere. If you're only using the one though, keep in mind that you can still pivot and engage the helical to get skyfire.

 

Vehicle weapon arc=line of sight

 

 

As i said, its your interpretation. You have not quoted a specific rule, you've just, as i did, made a number of assumptions and connected them.

I appreciate you are very active on the forum but your interpretation of unclear rules is no more official than mine. I just have the good graces to acknowledge that 1) I'm making an interpretation, and 2) the rule is unclear. Without making such disclaimers you are presenting yourself as the arbiter of the rules which isn't really appropriate. In such situations players or gaming grops must determine how they choose to play it.

 
He...actually did quote Interceptor, albeit in an abridged manner, though it was the only necessary part.
 
Interceptor
This weapon has been calibrated to target incoming drop troops, teleporting assault squads and other unlooked-for enemies.
 
At the end of the enemy Movement phase, a weapon with the Interceptor special rule can be fired at any one unit that has arrived from Reserve within its range and line of sight. If this rule is used, the weapon cannot be fired in the next turn, but the firing model can shoot a different weapon if it has one.

 

 

And then, when we check fire arcs for walkers;
 

 

 

SHOOTING WITH WALKERS

 

Walkers can choose to Run like Infantry, and this prevents them from firing and charging that turn, as normal. Walkers cannot Run if they are Stunned or Immobilised.
A Walker that moved can still fire all of its weapons in the subsequent Shooting phase. When firing a Walker’s weapons assume that weapons mounted on a Walker can swivel horizontally and vertically up to 45°. Range is measured from the weapon itself and line of sight is measured from the mounting point of the weapon and along its barrel, as normal for vehicles.

 

 
Because the rules just say "when firing a Walker's weapons", this means the arc applies in every context except for Overwatch, as it has it's own specific rules for line of sight.
 
I'm personally not sure how you can read all the relevant rules passages and miss how Walkers don't get 360 shooting always, maybe its because you don't equate weapon arcs with line of sight? 

Edited by SkimaskMohawk, 11 May 2017 - 08:41 PM.

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#34
Brother Captain Spud

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Its the pivot which is im question, not the original arc of the gun. I consider yoi can pivot to the direction of the target when using interceptor in the same way as when firing overwatch, not im a regular firing phase.

Nowhere does it say interceptor is restricted to the gun arc. The array is LoS restricted, as in if there is terrain blocking you cannot fire.

#35
Slips

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P.73 BRB:

 

Pivoting happens in the movement phase for vehicles.

Can you move your own models during your opponents movement phase ie: when interceptor happens? No.

 

Thus, you cannot pivot the dreadnought to perform Interceptor.

Its akin to turning your models to face your opponents models during their turn as they're moving their models ie: not something you can do.


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#36
SkimaskMohawk

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Where does it say you can pivot? You don't get permission to do any thing other than fire within range and LoS, during your opponent's Movement phase; you need to be able to make a move to pivot, even if you still count as being stationary. 

 

And I was right, you don't seem to equate arc with vehicle LoS.

 

Straight from the rules though;

 

 

VEHICLES & MEASURING DISTANCES

 
As vehicle models do not usually have bases, the normal rule of measuring distances to or from a base cannot be used. Instead, for distances involving a vehicle, measure to and from their hull, ignore gun barrels, dozer blades, antennas, banners and other decorative elements.
 
There is, however, the notable exception of a vehicle’s weaponry. When firing a vehicle’s weapons, ranges are measured from the muzzle of the firing weapon, whilst line of sight is determined from the weapon’s mounting point and along its barrel (as explained later).

 

Amusingly enough, it's bolded in the actual rules because its so important. So important, that in fact, there's a whole section on it with pictures and everything;

 

 

Vehicles Weapons & Line of Sight 

 

When firing a vehicle’s weapons, point them at the target and then trace line of sight from each weapons’ mounting and along its barrel to see if the shot is blocked by intervening terrain or models. If the target unit is in cover from only some of the vehicle’s weapons, then work out the target’s cover saves exactly as if each firing weapon on the vehicle was a separate firing unit. Note that, even when firing Barrage weapons, the target unit must be in the weapon’s arc of sight.
 
On some models, it will actually be impossible to move the gun and point it towards the target because of the way the model is assembled. In this case, players should assume that the guns on a vehicle are free to rotate or swivel on their mountings. In the rare cases when it matters, assume that guns can swivel vertically up to 45º, even if the barrel on the model itself cannot physically do that! Additionally, assume all hull-mounted weapons can swivel horizontally up to 45º.

 

We then bring the specified arcs Walkers get, establishing that yes, weapon arc is in fact vehicle LoS, and yes, a Walker has a total of 45 degrees of arc


Edited by SkimaskMohawk, 11 May 2017 - 09:13 PM.

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#37
Brother Captain Spud

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But you can during overwatch "Walkers can fire their weapons even if the charging unit is not within their current weapon arc".

Again i'm making an interpretation, because there are no specific rules to address this, and you are too.

Edited by Brother Captain Spud, 11 May 2017 - 09:18 PM.


#38
Slips

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But, Overwatch is the Exception because Walkers, whilst being a vehicle, are similar but different and have those exceptions pointed out very specifically in their own subsection of the BRB.

 

The exception is not the rule.


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#39
SkimaskMohawk

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They specifically say you can shoot out of arc for Overwatch, that's purely for Overwatch. They never apply that for anything else; there are specific rules for Walkers and Line of Sight, and specific rules for Interceptor. It's not "our intrepretation", it's literally what the rules say you can do


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#40
Brother Captain Spud

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Answer me this. What is the point if interceptor if you can only fire at ubts which appear within a 45° are directly in front of you? Nothing.

The way 30k has been designed is that each unit has a couple of principal roles. Think about this. A deredeo's two are heavy fire support and AA area denial (hence interceptor). Your interpretation of interceptor negates the area denial aspect.

#41
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No it doesn't, it just creates a more defined zone of area denial. Helical targeting array isn't unique to the deredeo; the mortis and contemptor mortis have them too. It's meant to create overlapping fields of fire to deny flyers coming in by having numerous units with it.

 

People are extremely sloppy with movement and line of sight and generally get mad when the rules punish them for sloppy play. Know the rules, position properly, don't be bad at the game.


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#42
Lord Blackwood

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I feel like i should get the stuff to make a second contemptor mortis now XD 

gotta get them overlapping fields bruh 



#43
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With how the twin-linked changes are shaping up to be in 8th and if weapons keep their RoF that they have now, then Mortis dreads of all striped will be dakka machines for sure.


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#44
Dono1979

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Answer me this. What is the point if interceptor if you can only fire at ubts which appear within a 45° are directly in front of you? Nothing.

The way 30k has been designed is that each unit has a couple of principal roles. Think about this. A deredeo's two are heavy fire support and AA area denial (hence interceptor). Your interpretation of interceptor negates the area denial aspect.

 

It is meant to create fields of area denial, to force your opponent to enter in other areas of the table or risk the Interceptor. It also requires the player to use the models with some level of thought and tactics, rather then plopping them in the middle of the board and intercepting anything you want. Those roles are better filled by the weapons specifically made for it; Hyperios Tarantulas





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