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Knight Wardens - Active Construction

TheLordMarshal

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#26
The Lord Marshal

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To quote the Fugitive:

 

"What is this? A moderator convention?" happy.png

 

I think you might be getting the cart before the blue-skinned-horse.

 

You seem to be looking at the Chiss from an entirely skin-deep perspective. You're focusing so much on the blue-skin and red eyes of the Chiss, you're kind of missing what actually makes them interesting as aliens in the Star Wars setting. They're isolationist, they have technology that is similar to established galactic standards, sometimes being parallel in terms of intended function, like Masers vs Turbolasers for example.

 

Their isolationist nature means they are mysterious and misunderstood, sometimes deliberately by their own hand, the people of the unknown regions for example often speak with fear of the Chiss Ascendency. It's the entire reason Thrawn and his story arc exists, because they needed someone to both manipulate as well as learn from the major galactic powers to protect the Ascendency.

 

They also have a very rigid class system and many noble houses, but instead of machiavellian politics, they push for service of the state and their own houses specialization, such as Thrawns household in the military.

 

They tend to be very rigid in doctrine, such as never initiating conflict, to the extent of being unable to justify a first-strike on an enemy they knew was coming for them. As such you know they hold their households honour in high esteem.

 

 

 
"But one fact has always remained constant: The Chiss must be approached from a position of strength and respect. One must have strength, for the Chiss will deal only with those capable of keeping their promises. One must have respect, for the Chiss must believe that those promises will be kept." ―Passage from Mitth'raw'nuruodo journal[src]

 

So to boil it down, what makes the Chiss who they are as a 'character' race in Star wars can be broken down to just a few lines:

 

  • Isolationist to the point of secrecy.
  • View everything through a utilitarian lense.
  • Great warriors, proud and intensely loyal to one another.
  • Oligarchic society of noble houses, but mandated both in law and culture to serve the whole rather than themselves.
  • Unwilling to get involved in affairs that didn't directly relate to their people or security.

 

I don't mean to come off as negative, that's not what I'm driving at. I'm a huge fan of Thrawn, huge fan. He's a military genius and badass who ascends typical martial character tropes and instead focuses on art and culture as a means of judging his opponent. What this isn't based on is his blue skin and red eyes, that's just a way to frame his experiences within the Empire during his time, to really bring in to focus how xenophobic the Empire could be, and in many ways illustrate how backward racism can be when you can discount someone's intelligence and experience just based on how they are different to you.

 

Don't get me wrong I'm not slagging you off here, I'm merely trying to point out that there might be more to the Chiss than what you seem to be focusing on. I agree, it's a cool look, in Star Wars: The Old Republic mmo I have a Chiss Imperial Agent, inspired by Thrawn, just for this very reason. There are plenty of other Star Wars aliens who are infinitely less interesting, like the introduction of the 'sith' race of red skinned force users, which felt forced and unnecessary. Or cherry pick any other wild looking but otherwise minor species in the setting. Where the Chiss are a very minor species when taken as a whole in the setting, have gained some major inclusions and references in games and other media - due to the insane fan reaction to Thrawn and his cult status amongst the fans - that they otherwise would not have.

 

If you want to do blue skinned marines, go for it. I don't see a problem, so long as you can write it well enough almost anything is possible. However, if you're basing them off the Chiss, I'd just suggest a deeper dive into their culture and character.

 

FIrstly, thanks for the detailed reply! Perhaps I should have stated that I meant to make Chissmarines more in terms of aesthetic than culture.  I suppose I am intending to blend some of the more Thrawn-ish preemptive strike ideology and appreciation for craftsmanship, but perhaps I could do it better.  I suppose my idea does somewhat adhere to the 2 bullets I highlighted above though.  I have been meaning to get back to this, and actually have some new ideas that I think are better than my prior cultural theories.

 

I was going to start talking about the their cultural relative to their interactions with other Astartes through the Deathwatch, which I would like to still talk about.  But I think I should start more with background information.  Specifically, I think I might change their lineage to be spliced geneseed between Vulkan and the II Primarch, which is technically feasible and would tie the mystery backstory together better.  The Carcharadons are suspected of having spliced geneseed of Corax and Cruze after all.  I am also thinking of expanding on their founding through a connection to an Astartes organization called the "Azure Chimeras" that have something to do with the II Legion, but I need think about it more.  I think I would make these stories come to light in more recent times with the whole primaris marines thing going on, as it seems to be a logical time for more lineage information to emerge.  I think this route might better develop the chapter idea as a whole and give a better baseline for their overall culture.

 

What do you all think?  I will try to write more this evening, but I have some crap with work to do first.

 

So I just got back form a controlled visit to a friend over the weekend and having been catching up on work.  But i have some new ideas to add to the above:

 

Story of a company discovering a long lost legion armory with a dormant fellblade.  Techmarine touches fellblade suddenly partial awakens its machine spirit, techmarine uses his devices to interact with machine spirit, which states in text "right of the inheritors, son of the chimera."  basically leads the realization that for some reason the fellblade will only respond to those of its original legion or their gene-line, which as far as I know is not entirely unheard of for particularly revered and old machine spirits.  Leads marines to realize it somehow knows they descendants of its original legion, they see if lists their legion or parent chapter in it.  Machine spirit does not list whether it is a legion or chapter, but appears to be property of the "Azure Chimeras" confirming previously found vague references to the Knight Wardens be sired by the "Azure Chimeras" whatever they are.  Basically another piece to the puzzle and a convenient way to give them some archeotech.

 

"The Murder of the Stars" - a cataclysmic event involving Necrons and a Ctan shard and the destruction of a moon that leads to them getting their chapter badge a reoccurring theme of crescents.

 

Chapter Fortress Monastery being a 40k version of the "Hand of Thrawn" with certain advanced manufacturing capabilities, might modify the idea from being solely planet-side to being a starfort hidden as a planet-side base, but Murder of Stars event leads to it being back in space? Not sure.

 

Deal with an Iron Hands successor chapter that is essentially an unusual quid pro quo, allowing the Knight Warden chapter's artificers and techmarines to examine the single suit of exceedingly rare Gorgon pattern Termi armor possessed by that Iron Hands successor.  Leads to a centuries long project by the Knight Wardens' artificers and techmarines developing a Gorgon pattern inspired new terminator armor pattern (possibly named Chimera pattern).  Non-combat prototype would exist by the present and idea would be modified to be intended for the new Primaris Marines that are slowly replacing the Firstborn.  Intended for limited number of field testing versions to go into production over the early decades of Era Indomitus by 1st company veterans.  Thinking of it as a limited production model for an utlra elite "Chimeran Dreadknights" unit, akin to some of the specialist elites of the Legions.

 

Also thinking of making a successor chapter (Talons Mordant is a working name atm) of either the Knight Wardens, or "Azure Chimeras" that will be trained by veterans from many chapters, making it difficult to trace their origins until they discover it themselves.  However, they will only be II Legion geneseed not combined like the Knight Wardens.  This other chapter will be quite new, with many primaris marines, focused on legion style recon squads, marksmanship and swordsmanship, using guerilla and ambush tactics to weaken enemies before hitting them with shock assaults by assault marines and terminators (although I am thinking of giving them no termis).  Their regular work behind enemy lines will lead them to discover their lineage and stronger connection to the Knight Wardens, and maybe work into this story arc as well.  Maybe they and the Knight Wardens are each geneseed experiments done at the orders of the Emperor?  Anyway, they will be publicly directed by either the High Lords or Lord Commander of the Imperium to hunt for Fabius Bile, as he becomes a growing concern thanks to information provided by the Inquisition (and yes this mostly because I hate Bile and any Slaanesh worshipers).

 

Again, thoughts welcome.  I think these might be interesting interconnected story arcs to play with.


Edited by The Lord Marshal, 02 December 2020 - 09:29 PM.

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#27
Grey Hunter Ydalir

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Ok Let's take a look.

 

 

I was going to start talking about the their cultural relative to their interactions with other Astartes through the Deathwatch, which I would like to still talk about.  But I think I should start more with background information. 

 

 

I think that's a good idea to exemplify how they interact with other chapters. If they act like Thrawn did when he was in the Imperial Military proper, it'd be an interesting point of friction. You could even have their unique mutations be commented on by other more 'puritan' Astartes members negatively, but that entirely depends on whether you want to include that kind of commentary in your work.

 

Other than that a cultural example is great. Due to the nature of the Deathwatch and it's role, it'd be hard to have this kind of work be front and center when talking about the chapter, especially when the Deathwatch members are sworn to secrecy - which is slightly idiotic as an aside, considering the nature of the Astartes and their role in 40k - when returning to their chapters. You'd end up telling a Deathwatch story that had a member of your chapter in it, as opposed to the story of your chapter with a sidebar or commentary on one of it's brethren's time in the Deathwatch.

 

 

Specifically, I think I might change their lineage to be spliced geneseed between Vulkan and the II Primarch, which is technically feasible and would tie the mystery backstory together better.  The Carcharadons are suspected of having spliced geneseed of Corax and Cruze after all.  I am also thinking of expanding on their founding through a connection to an Astartes organization called the "Azure Chimeras" that have something to do with the II Legion, but I need think about it more.  I think I would make these stories come to light in more recent times with the whole primaris marines thing going on, as it seems to be a logical time for more lineage information to emerge.  I think this route might better develop the chapter idea as a whole and give a better baseline for their overall culture.

 

 

 

Right out of the gate I'll state I'm not a fan of mixed geneseed. Things like this were traditionally only done during, for example, the cursed founding and most of those chapters met with unfortunate ends. It's heretical in the extreme outside of sanctioned events like that as well.

 

Narratively speaking, it's got to be specifically tied to the makeup of the story of the chapter, like how the Soul Drinkers story is for a large part dominated by them not being who they thought they were, and the narrative springing from there. In any other respect it never feels necessary and in most cases simply feels like it's 'rule of cool', to try and make something unique without actually writing them to be so, relying on the crutch of something like 'mixed geneseed' or 'lost in the warp' or simply 'dark secrets', rather than actually writing something compelling.

 

Don't get the cart before the horse. Write something that you think is a compelling story and see what springs from building that road, rather than dropping down a bunch of pretty statues and writing your way around them, forcing people to look at the statues rather than enjoying the drive on your road, if that makes sense.

 

This also applies to the 'azure chimeras' which naming wise, feels a little bit on the nose, as well as the second legion links. It'd be better to have something like that subtly implied in passing, but never stated anywhere if you were going to do it. If it were me, I'd also cloak it in suspicions around the Alpha Legion. On this I'd ask Ace Debonair for some tidbits of advice, considering his Knights Oracular are back and are Alpha Legion Infiltrators Alpha Legion hunting specialists.

 

 

Story of a company discovering a long lost legion armory with a dormant fellblade.  Techmarine touches fellblade suddenly partial awakens its machine spirit, techmarine uses his devices to interact with machine spirit, which states in text "right of the inheritors, son of the chimera."  basically leads the realization that for some reason the fellblade will only respond to those of its original legion or their gene-line, which as far as I know is not entirely unheard of for particularly revered and old machine spirits.  Leads marines to realize it somehow knows they descendants of its original legion, they see if lists their legion or parent chapter in it.  Machine spirit does not list whether it is a legion or chapter, but appears to be property of the "Azure Chimeras" confirming previously found vague references to the Knight Wardens be sired by the "Azure Chimeras" whatever they are.  Basically another piece to the puzzle and a convenient way to give them some archeotech.

 

 

 

This falls into the same camp as above. You're getting attached to particular individual golden bricks and expecting them to form key structural components of the wall that is your chapter, when they'd just crush under expansion.

 

I'll explain. I think having a set of ideas for unique parts of the chapter are fine, but should be far, far less specific. Instead of this mini-story about a fellblade, just have one word "Archeotech" and leave it at that.

 

When you begin writing any story, you should typically start with broad strokes. It's fine to have a concept in your head for it, but start developing that idea as broadly as possible.

 

Example: I want to write a story about one of my Astartes. I begin with; a man is born, he lives, he dies. That's your basic beginning, middle and end. A story has to have those elements and while an IA is not a narrative story per-se, I view it as being the 'story' of your chapter. It covers their beginnings, how they're founded. Their middle years, their trials, tribulations and how they have been formed by these experiences. Finally their 'end' which is where you write your conclusion as to the character and state of the chapter and where they're poised to go as of the 'current' in stasis moment of the 40k timeline.

 

As I develop his story I flesh it out with each successive pass. I'll add his name, his tribe or birthplace. Then briefly mention the trials he suffered to become an Astartes before moving on to his early career, before finally heading to his death, or where the story will leave him.

 

If you keep developing that character long enough, you can pull a moment, battle, campaign, crisis or whatever you want from his life and you will have everything you need to write a story about it. You have his character, what challenges he's overcome and how that defines him.

 

This is how video game, movie and narrative franchise 'bibles' are developed as well, even if some of those are more a collection of ideas and development from multiple authors along the way.

 

Any time you dive too deep into hyper-specifics, you're getting the aforementioned cart before the horse.

 

Your chapter is founded. Your chapter overcomes challenges put before them and it defines their character, and culture. Your chapter and it's status at the end of the current 40k timeline, including consequences of their actions and character set up before.

 

 

"The Murder of the Stars" - a cataclysmic event involving Necrons and a Ctan shard and the destruction of a moon that leads to them getting their chapter badge a reoccurring theme of crescents.

 

 

Not sure about the crescents, I'd need to know more about the event, but Necron ships tend to be croissant sorry, crescent shaped in nature and I find it odd that a chapter would adopt the symbol of a xenos race they're fighting, even if it is just in ship aesthetics, unless the crescent existed in their symbology before hand.

 

That said, a cataclysmic event based around the Necrons is really cool and fitting right in with current 40k lore.

 

 

Chapter Fortress Monastery being a 40k version of the "Hand of Thrawn" with certain advanced manufacturing capabilities, might modify the idea from being solely planet-side to being a starfort hidden as a planet-side base, but Murder of Stars event leads to it being back in space? Not sure.

 

 

 

I'm not sure, you have to be extremely careful how you do this. Older and first or second founding chapters can get away with something similar, but their inherited equipment and infrastructure is far different to a newer chapters.

 

You also need to think about the logistics of it. The larger the manufacturing presence you have, the more bodies you need to run it as well as materials needed to pump out production. Secondly, given the relatively low number of Astartes in a chapter, even with Guillimans new reforms, and the again relatively low attrition rate of Astartes in battle (think of the fact that most tactical marines are a hundred years old at least, as well as being the chapters backbone of fighting men), 'large' manufacturing facilities are fairly redundant.

 

Astartes chapters need to have a measure of self-sufficiency, this is true. Let's compare this to the real world, while I know the scale is different and operationally things change because of that, but stick with me here.

 

A special forces group will have armorers in tow, but they won't have any local gun-manufacturing as part of the unit, or even division as a whole. They will have some extremely capable and knowledgeable members, but not all of them know their weapons as well as you might think, despite them being very proficient with them.

 

(Hell, Larry Vickers despite being as knowledgeable as he is has made a couple of asinine statements before regarding some firearms that he's been raked over the coals for, despite being a former Delta operator.)

 

Given how small a unit is, they need to be provided with the ability to repair and refit their weapons and keep them working. Where an Astartes chapter differs is in scale, since they also have to maintain working operation of powered armour, small arms, void-craft, atmospheric craft, transports and landers, tanks and so on and so forth. This means their operation of scale for the good operation of all of their assets naturally increases and to take a link out of their logistical nightmare of a supply chain, being able to manufacture on a limited scale greatly offsets some of this dependence upon the Mechanicus.

 

But just how much do you need to manufacture for your two to three-thousand strong special forces division?

 

I know this is a bit of a rant, so my apologies for that, it's just I see this pop up a lot in 40k lore and fan projects like IA's.

 

On the other side of the coin, I'd perhaps frame it as a Great Crusade era Astartes forge ship, and it's ability to manufacture is perhaps more efficient than modern forges, the alloys are stronger, the forging and milling tools more precise. It allows gear to be maintained to a higher standard than is possible with modern forges, but also gets you out of being a mary-sue with an ability to create your own GC era super-heavy tanks for your chapter out of the blue.

 

 

Deal with an Iron Hands successor chapter that is essentially an unusual quid pro quo, allowing the Knight Warden chapter's artificers and techmarines to examine the single suit of exceedingly rare Gorgon pattern Termi armor possessed by that Iron Hands successor.  Leads to a centuries long project by the Knight Wardens' artificers and techmarines developing a Gorgon pattern inspired new terminator armor pattern (possibly named Chimera pattern).  Non-combat prototype would exist by the present and idea would be modified to be intended for the new Primaris Marines that are slowly replacing the Firstborn.  Intended for limited number of field testing versions to go into production over the early decades of Era Indomitus by 1st company veterans.  Thinking of it as a limited production model for an utlra elite "Chimeran Dreadknights" unit, akin to some of the specialist elites of the Legions.

 

 

I'd stay away from this. I personally don't see it happening on a few levels. Again you're delving into hyper-specifics, but that aside I think all suits of Gorgon armour are unique to the Iron Hands themselves, extremely closely guarded as a secret, considering a lot of what the Iron Hands have done/are doing is tech-heresy in the extreme.

 

To round it out, it's not known so far as I'm aware if there are any suits left, since the majority of the suits were deployed with the Avernii Clan, which were wiped out at the Dropsite Massacre, though I could be wrong as Iron Hands lore isn't my strong-suit.

 

Also, do you really want to make your chapter unique by taking something that's unique to another chapter?

On top of that the Chiss as far as I'm aware aren't huge proponents of cyborgs or heavy use of cybernetics.

 

 

Also thinking of making a successor chapter (Talons Mordant is a working name atm) of either the Knight Wardens, or "Azure Chimeras" that will be trained by veterans from many chapters, making it difficult to trace their origins until they discover it themselves.  However, they will only be II Legion geneseed not combined like the Knight Wardens.  This other chapter will be quite new, with many primaris marines, focused on legion style recon squads, marksmanship and swordsmanship, using guerilla and ambush tactics to weaken enemies before hitting them with shock assaults by assault marines and terminators (although I am thinking of giving them no termis).  Their regular work behind enemy lines will lead them to discover their lineage and stronger connection to the Knight Wardens, and maybe work into this story arc as well.  Maybe they and the Knight Wardens are each geneseed experiments done at the orders of the Emperor?  Anyway, they will be publicly directed by either the High Lords or Lord Commander of the Imperium to hunt for Fabius Bile, as he becomes a growing concern thanks to information provided by the Inquisition (and yes this mostly because I hate Bile and any Slaanesh worshipers).

 

 

Unless you're as talented and capable as Ace (most aren't, I'm certainly not, much as I might try), I'd stick to fleshing and rounding out this chapter first before jumping into anything else, as you'll end up doing both chapters a disservice when things inevitably change on both ends and it becomes a mess.

 

By all means keep the idea around and even work on it a little as an overall concept, but wait till this one has some concrete foundations before you jump ship, at least in my opinion.


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The Octaguide.
The Thousand Marine Myth.

On the scale mismatch of bolts and bolters by Coldfyre

Commissar Molotov's Castigators - Essential reading for IA Creation.

"...I have seen the birth of this world and I have seen its death. I walked with the first men and I shared a beer with the last. For me everyone is both old and young at the same time as a million lifetimes pass before my eyes and humanity is like the grains of sand in the desert, each breath to me a sigh in the vast never-ending vacumn of space."
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#28
Gamiel

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Over the course of their service to The Imperium, the Knight Wardens have developed a particularly vicious reputation in melee combat reminiscent of such savage chapters as The Executioners and Caracharodons. This dark reputation combined with their lack of tolerance for failure has cause many problems in the past, including clashes with other servants of The Imperium.

Suggest using another Chapter instead of the Carcharodons since that Chapter is actually rather unknown. Maybe Flesh Tearers? Or ower own brother Draakur's Desolators?

 

But of all weapons, there is one every battle brother favors above all others, a unique pattern of power mace found only within their chapter - the Crescent-pattern Power Mace.  The Crescent-pattern has the head of the mace formed from 6 razor-sharp crescents, like those found on their chapter badge (hence the name). This creates a weapon that combines the crushing blunt force of a power weapon wielded by a super-human with traumatic blades that tare open a wound when the weapon is retrieved from an enemy, both crushing bone and causing massive internal damage.  In the hands of a well trained warrior like an Astartes, a single well aimed blow from one of these weapons will mortally wound almost any enemy.  (OC - *inserts gif* "power maces? no, much more better!"*)

 

To me, what you describe is a morningstar

 

 

 

 

 

"The Murder of the Stars" - a cataclysmic event involving Necrons and a Ctan shard and the destruction of a moon that leads to them getting their chapter badge a reoccurring theme of crescents.

 

Not sure about the crescents, I'd need to know more about the event, but Necron ships tend to be croissant sorry, crescent shaped in nature and I find it odd that a chapter would adopt the symbol of a xenos race they're fighting, even if it is just in ship aesthetics, unless the crescent existed in their symbology before hand.

 

That said, a cataclysmic event based around the Necrons is really cool and fitting right in with current 40k lore.

 

RL European heraldry have been known to use head of ottomans/other heathen, maybe it's something like that.

 

(I'm actually surprised that we have not seen any Chapter whose symbol is the skull of xeno species)


Edited by Gamiel, 07 December 2020 - 09:33 PM.

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#29
Gamiel

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Regering the possibly mixed gene-seed and the possibility of them being from one of the lost legions do I agree with Grey Hunter Ydalir that it doesn't feel like it's adding anything. Maybe if the revelations for the Knight Wardens that their origins may be different than what they have always thought lead to them notably change their ways, like: create some kind of special group/s within the Chapter whose only mission is to look into their origin; made them begin to be in contact with the Salamanders and copy their ways even more as a way to reinforce within them that they are of Vulcan’s get, if not in flesh so in spirit; have made them uncertain about their place in the universe which have led them to do stupid/recless/strange/other stuff that they did not do before; have made them doubt themself and to clese the doubt have gone on a selfimposed crusade; etcetera. 

 

And/or have that the revelation that they are have mixed gene-seed being something that explain some kind of strange behavior, mutation, cravings or social problems the Chapter have been suffering - it’s not mixed gene-seed but a good example would be the Swords of Haldroth who thought they were Ultramarine successors who suffered from strange symptoms, which they had worked hard to conceal from those around them. It was not until a chance meeting with Astorath the Grim that they found out that they were actually Blood Angels successors and changed name to the Carmine Blades (and likely also changed colours, and symbol, and ways to show company to the BA one).

 

 

"But one fact has always remained constant: The Chiss must be approached from a position of strength and respect. One must have strength, for the Chiss will deal only with those capable of keeping their promises. One must have respect, for the Chiss must believe that those promises will be kept." ―Passage from Mitth'raw'nuruodo journal[src]

 

So to boil it down, what makes the Chiss who they are as a 'character' race in Star wars can be broken down to just a few lines:

 

  • Isolationist to the point of secrecy.
  • View everything through a utilitarian lense.
  • Great warriors, proud and intensely loyal to one another.
  • Oligarchic society of noble houses, but mandated both in law and culture to serve the whole rather than themselves.
  • Unwilling to get involved in affairs that didn't directly relate to their people or security.

If I may spin on with this, something I can see explaining why they have a "Empire of the Hand" like situation and are highly isolationistic could be that they have been given an area of space as their protectorate and are more interested in protecting this area than serving the need of the wider Imperium or follow it rules.

 

They could also have a kind of live and let live attitude toward xenos that don't attack them (possibly leading to them having one or more world in their area where xenos live, maybe even Aeldari Exodite worlds), this would lead them to being secretive since they don't want other Imperial forces to know about their utilitarian attitude* toward xenos.

* from their perspective 

Edited by Gamiel, 08 December 2020 - 05:13 PM.

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#30
The Lord Marshal

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 Wow, alot of things to reply to! Thank you both! yes.gif

For ease of understanding I am going to reply in color within these posts.  I know there are some issues with the whole spliced geneseed thing, especially with a Lost Legion, but hear me out below.  I think with some of your help, which I am taking in here, I can make it work.  Its not a defense, just bare with me and lets just try it; this is an experiment now.  Please read all, and hopefully I haven't forgotten anything, it was a long work day.huh.png

 

 

Ok Let's take a look.

 

 

I was going to start talking about the their cultural relative to their interactions with other Astartes through the Deathwatch, which I would like to still talk about.  But I think I should start more with background information. 

 

 

I think that's a good idea to exemplify how they interact with other chapters. If they act like Thrawn did when he was in the Imperial Military proper, it'd be an interesting point of friction. You could even have their unique mutations be commented on by other more 'puritan' Astartes members negatively, but that entirely depends on whether you want to include that kind of commentary in your work.

 

Yeah I read a Deathwatch book and realized that a brief story of the chapter's interactions there is the perfect venue for describing how the chapter develops relationships for good or ill with other chapters.  You are absolutely right, the inevitable conflict with more puritanical chapters, and by extension some sects of the Inquisition.

 

Other than that a cultural example is great. Due to the nature of the Deathwatch and it's role, it'd be hard to have this kind of work be front and center when talking about the chapter, especially when the Deathwatch members are sworn to secrecy - which is slightly idiotic as an aside, considering the nature of the Astartes and their role in 40k - when returning to their chapters. You'd end up telling a Deathwatch story that had a member of your chapter in it, as opposed to the story of your chapter with a sidebar or commentary on one of it's brethren's time in the Deathwatch.

 

I was definitely thinking of it that way, as a story of a member of the chapter, doing his vigil and interaction with other Astartes of chapters he may or may not know, developing bonds with some, butting heads with others.  Basically the mini story i have in mind would be in the section stating they commit brothers to the Deathwatch and talks about a brother's service there that developed relationships and a new tradition for the chapter's brothers that join it, regarding their relationships there and 2 relic Crescent-pattern power maces made by the chapter that is now in the Deathwatch armory.

 

 

Specifically, I think I might change their lineage to be spliced geneseed between Vulkan and the II Primarch, which is technically feasible and would tie the mystery backstory together better.  The Carcharadons are suspected of having spliced geneseed of Corax and Cruze after all.  I am also thinking of expanding on their founding through a connection to an Astartes organization called the "Azure Chimeras" that have something to do with the II Legion, but I need think about it more.  I think I would make these stories come to light in more recent times with the whole primaris marines thing going on, as it seems to be a logical time for more lineage information to emerge.  I think this route might better develop the chapter idea as a whole and give a better baseline for their overall culture.

 

 

 

Right out of the gate I'll state I'm not a fan of mixed geneseed. Things like this were traditionally only done during, for example, the cursed founding and most of those chapters met with unfortunate ends. It's heretical in the extreme outside of sanctioned events like that as well.

 

I get it, you aren't wrong that it is exceedingly rare and only at special direction.  However, there are enough examples of chapters, some cursed as you've said, some alive, that have geneseed suspected to be derived from either, loyalists of the traitor legions, spliced geneseed, or possibly Lost Legions, that the idea is plausible even if it is near impossible.  In researching the Lost Legions and the feasibility of the idea, there is evidence that at least part of those legions likely survived in loyalist legions.  Recently, it has been made clear that the Lost Legions geneseed was preserved, and theoretically, could be used, and may have been at the direction of the Emperor or his personal representative.  Thus it is plausible, that either at the direction of the Emperor or his personal representative, or even unknowingly, that a current chapter could have Lost Legion geneseed.  I guess I thought of it as, the chapter could have been an early, and for the reasons above, likely unique, experiment with using the Lost Legion geneseed and splicing it with a clearly loyalist geneseed, to attempt to prevent any corruption.  Plus, there are many examples of chapters having their history, especially their lineage, sealed or purged for any number of unknown reasons.

 

Narratively speaking, it's got to be specifically tied to the makeup of the story of the chapter, like how the Soul Drinkers story is for a large part dominated by them not being who they thought they were, and the narrative springing from there. In any other respect it never feels necessary and in most cases simply feels like it's 'rule of cool', to try and make something unique without actually writing them to be so, relying on the crutch of something like 'mixed geneseed' or 'lost in the warp' or simply 'dark secrets', rather than actually writing something compelling.

 

I'll be honest, I was not originally thinking of using a Lost Legion in this at all, but then I occurred to me that it might allow me to develop a unique legion lineage and culture with greater freedom.  So yes, it is meant to be used in order to develop story and concept.  The chapter as it is now it a bit too, generalist more than cookie cutter, for me.  I do not want nor intend to use vagueness to create the illusion of coolness or complexity.  I intend to use this geneseed and connection to create a chapter that is unique, has personality and clearly develops and changes through its history.  I want the general, semi cookie cutter chapter it sort of currently is, to not be the same chapter it is when I talk of in the current M41.  It is not going to be so in the extreme that is it unrecognizable, rather that it has evolved.  A chapter that is of 5th Founding (technically earlier by my story, maybe 3rd) needs a proper history.  So again, I hear your concerns and they are valid, but bare with him on that front.  I think your feedback is helping me develop something that can work, I would not even try this if I felt I could not think of enough concepts for it to be meaningful.

 

Don't get the cart before the horse. Write something that you think is a compelling story and see what springs from building that road, rather than dropping down a bunch of pretty statues and writing your way around them, forcing people to look at the statues rather than enjoying the drive on your road, if that makes sense.

 

A very good point to keep in mind!  It will prob not be the first time someone has to remind me to walk before I run. smile.png

 

This also applies to the 'azure chimeras' which naming wise, feels a little bit on the nose, as well as the second legion links. It'd be better to have something like that subtly implied in passing, but never stated anywhere if you were going to do it. If it were me, I'd also cloak it in suspicions around the Alpha Legion. On this I'd ask Ace Debonair for some tidbits of advice, considering his Knights Oracular are back and are Alpha Legion Infiltrators LOL, I am Alpharius? Is it too soon? Alpha Legion hunting specialists.

 

Sorry, "on the nose" in a good way or a bad way?  I did choose the II over the XI because, it seems, not by much mind you, that there is slightly more barebones known on II.  Also, since I was inspired by elite units of the legions and my obsession with ancient tech, it seemed to me the Emperor was somewhat favorable to the earlier legions in those regards, so it would make more sense for me to choose II for that reason.  Also, the earlier geneseeds supposedly tend to be, well before the heresy as far as I know, tended to be more pure, so if a Lost Legion geneseed was used, it would make more sense to use the II?  I looked at a long article on the Lost Legions and only thought of a name that fit within the sort of physical-relative-the-rest-of-the-text length of the II legion's name (apparently some document had it redacted in it in the lore).  I guess I tried to keep from diving too deep into making a II legion by leaving further specifics desired if you will, but perhaps its not as successful.  

 

Let me know more what you are imagining in terms of cloaking it in AL suspicion, because honestly, I have a chapter that basically is loyalist AL already called the Ellipsis Chapter in the Liber.  And I do not want this chapter connected to AL, so I would prefer to avoid them, as much as I love the AL.  Regardless, perhaps Ace might have some ideas on working the mystery better either way, I will ask him to take a look here.

 

 

Story of a company discovering a long lost legion armory with a dormant fellblade.  Techmarine touches fellblade suddenly partial awakens its machine spirit, techmarine uses his devices to interact with machine spirit, which states in text "right of the inheritors, son of the chimera."  basically leads the realization that for some reason the fellblade will only respond to those of its original legion or their gene-line, which as far as I know is not entirely unheard of for particularly revered and old machine spirits.  Leads marines to realize it somehow knows they descendants of its original legion, they see if lists their legion or parent chapter in it.  Machine spirit does not list whether it is a legion or chapter, but appears to be property of the "Azure Chimeras" confirming previously found vague references to the Knight Wardens be sired by the "Azure Chimeras" whatever they are.  Basically another piece to the puzzle and a convenient way to give them some archeotech.

 

 

 

This falls into the same camp as above. You're getting attached to particular individual golden bricks and expecting them to form key structural components of the wall that is your chapter, when they'd just crush under expansion.

 

You are right, I am trying to jump ahead.  Keep reminding me!

 

I'll explain. I think having a set of ideas for unique parts of the chapter are fine, but should be far, far less specific. Instead of this mini-story about a fellblade, just have one word "Archeotech" and leave it at that.

 

I suppose what it is, isn't actually important to the mini story.  I could def just do that and if I wanted to just make a named fellblade in a misc war material section that has nothing to do with the story.

 

When you begin writing any story, you should typically start with broad strokes. It's fine to have a concept in your head for it, but start developing that idea as broadly as possible.

 

Example: I want to write a story about one of my Astartes. I begin with; a man is born, he lives, he dies. That's your basic beginning, middle and end. A story has to have those elements and while an IA is not a narrative story per-se, I view it as being the 'story' of your chapter. It covers their beginnings, how they're founded. Their middle years, their trials, tribulations and how they have been formed by these experiences. Finally their 'end' which is where you write your conclusion as to the character and state of the chapter and where they're poised to go as of the 'current' in stasis moment of the 40k timeline.

 

As I develop his story I flesh it out with each successive pass. I'll add his name, his tribe or birthplace. Then briefly mention the trials he suffered to become an Astartes before moving on to his early career, before finally heading to his death, or where the story will leave him.

 

If you keep developing that character long enough, you can pull a moment, battle, campaign, crisis or whatever you want from his life and you will have everything you need to write a story about it. You have his character, what challenges he's overcome and how that defines him.

 

This is how video game, movie and narrative franchise 'bibles' are developed as well, even if some of those are more a collection of ideas and development from multiple authors along the way.

 

Any time you dive too deep into hyper-specifics, you're getting the aforementioned cart before the horse.

 

Again, a good reminder.  I am creative and a good writer in most things, but I know from experience that I am not good at narrative writing or whatever reason.  So I appreciate the advise

 

Your chapter is founded. Your chapter overcomes challenges put before them and it defines their character, and culture. Your chapter and it's status at the end of the current 40k timeline, including consequences of their actions and character set up before.

 

This is def what I need to do to have a chapter that, as I said above, evolves through its history.

 

 

"The Murder of the Stars" - a cataclysmic event involving Necrons and a Ctan shard and the destruction of a moon that leads to them getting their chapter badge a reoccurring theme of crescents.

 

 

Not sure about the crescents, I'd need to know more about the event, but Necron ships tend to be croissant lmao sorry, crescent shaped in nature and I find it odd that a chapter would adopt the symbol of a xenos race they're fighting, even if it is just in ship aesthetics, unless the crescent existed in their symbology before hand.

 

Funny enough, I am glad you said that, but I was thinking in terms of the event destorying a moon such that all that remained was a crescent, it didn't even occur to me that Necron ships are also crescents.

 

That said, a cataclysmic event based around the Necrons is really cool and fitting right in with current 40k lore.

 

Yea I have to do alot more research on this first.  If I remember correctly, there was some evidence that the Imperium encountered very early awakening Necrons or Necrons that forgot to sleep or something, but didn't know what they were, long before the official first contact with the Necrons.  I need to see how early that actually was.  Essentially the idea is that the chapter encounters the Necrons, likely a Ctan Shard, on some moon, they battle, and the Ctan Shard destroys the moon in its death, leaving a charred crescent, all that is left.  The chapter memorialized this achievement and struggle by adopting the crescent moon as a theme and on their chapter sigil.  I think, I will modify my original thinking in a manner that will work better with new ideas, but I will put that later on here.

 

 

Chapter Fortress Monastery being a 40k version of the "Hand of Thrawn" with certain advanced manufacturing capabilities, might modify the idea from being solely planet-side to being a starfort hidden as a planet-side base, but Murder of Stars event leads to it being back in space? Not sure.

 

 

 

I'm not sure, you have to be extremely careful how you do this. Older and first or second founding chapters can get away with something similar, but their inherited equipment and infrastructure is far different to a newer chapters.

 

Ah I see your concern, I have not communicated what I meant by this.  No worries, I am not making them a Dark Angels copy or something ridiculous like that.  See below.

 

You also need to think about the logistics of it. The larger the manufacturing presence you have, the more bodies you need to run it as well as materials needed to pump out production. Secondly, given the relatively low number of Astartes in a chapter, even with Guillimans new reforms, and the again relatively low attrition rate of Astartes in battle (think of the fact that most tactical marines are a hundred years old at least, as well as being the chapters backbone of fighting men), 'large' manufacturing facilities are fairly redundant.

 

Astartes chapters need to have a measure of self-sufficiency, this is true. Let's compare this to the real world, while I know the scale is different and operationally things change because of that, but stick with me here.

 

What I was thinking, and obvious did not communicate, was a fortress monastery that has some limited forging abilities that most chapters would not, mostly with power armors.  I like certain marks of older armor and there is evidence that a few chapters have the ability to forge them still.  Other than that, it would mostly be the standard forging, not a major factory.  It also would work with the chapter being big on artificing due to their connection to the Salamanders.  Idea may need modifying but I think my lack of clarity may have created a fear that it was more than it was.

 

A special forces group will have armorers in tow, but they won't have any local gun-manufacturing as part of the unit, or even division as a whole. They will have some extremely capable and knowledgeable members, but not all of them know their weapons as well as you might think, despite them being very proficient with them.

 

(Hell, Larry Vickers despite being as knowledgeable as he is has made a couple of asinine statements before regarding some firearms that he's been raked over the coals for, despite being a former Delta operator.)

 

Given how small a unit is, they need to be provided with the ability to repair and refit their weapons and keep them working. Where an Astartes chapter differs is in scale, since they also have to maintain working operation of powered armour, small arms, void-craft, atmospheric craft, transports and landers, tanks and so on and so forth. This means their operation of scale for the good operation of all of their assets naturally increases and to take a link out of their logistical nightmare of a supply chain, being able to manufacture on a limited scale greatly offsets some of this dependence upon the Mechanicus.

 

But just how much do you need to manufacture for your two to three-thousand strong special forces division?

 

I know this is a bit of a rant, so my apologies for that, it's just I see this pop up a lot in 40k lore and fan projects like IA's.

 

On the other side of the coin, I'd perhaps frame it as a Great Crusade era Astartes forge ship, and it's ability to manufacture is perhaps more efficient than modern forges, the alloys are stronger, the forging and milling tools more precise. It allows gear to be maintained to a higher standard than is possible with modern forges, but also gets you out of being a mary-sue with an ability to create your own GC era super-heavy tanks for your chapter out of the blue.

 

I think I can modify this idea and make it work with the Murder of the Stars event.  Again, I have to do my research to see that it can work with the Necron lore, but, what if that event destroyed their original homeworld?  And their fortress monastery partly survived due to its shielding, and was rebuilt to be similar to Ramilles star fort (because Imps and bloody STCs) with those forges I talked about above?  Plus that would not only link concepts, but show evolution in the chapter.

 

Also, if I do that I could also rework the reason for the blue skin.  It would change from being the natives having light blue skin that darkens with the geneseed implantation, to, the result of the II legion geneseed combining with Vulkan's.  Because, if they changed homeworlds, the original idea doesn't work.  This solution to that problems gives another reason to have the II legion, rather conveniently.

 

 

Deal with an Iron Hands successor chapter that is essentially an unusual quid pro quo, allowing the Knight Warden chapter's artificers and techmarines to examine the single suit of exceedingly rare Gorgon pattern Termi armor possessed by that Iron Hands successor.  Leads to a centuries long project by the Knight Wardens' artificers and techmarines developing a Gorgon pattern inspired new terminator armor pattern (possibly named Chimera pattern).  Non-combat prototype would exist by the present and idea would be modified to be intended for the new Primaris Marines that are slowly replacing the Firstborn.  Intended for limited number of field testing versions to go into production over the early decades of Era Indomitus by 1st company veterans.  Thinking of it as a limited production model for an utlra elite "Chimeran Dreadknights" unit, akin to some of the specialist elites of the Legions.

 

 

I'd stay away from this. I personally don't see it happening on a few levels. Again you're delving into hyper-specifics, but that aside I think all suits of Gorgon armour are unique to the Iron Hands themselves, extremely closely guarded as a secret, considering a lot of what the Iron Hands have done/are doing is tech-heresy in the extreme.

 

To round it out, it's not known so far as I'm aware if there are any suits left, since the majority of the suits were deployed with the Avernii Clan, which were wiped out at the Dropsite Massacre, though I could be wrong as Iron Hands lore isn't my strong-suit.

 

Also, do you really want to make your chapter unique by taking something that's unique to another chapter?

On top of that the Chiss as far as I'm aware aren't huge proponents of cyborgs or heavy use of cybernetics.

 

So I have to explain the reasoning for this, and I see its a bad idea, but perhaps I can take the reasoning for it to make a better idea that doesn't involve Gorgon termis.  I love the look of the Gorgon-pattern termi armor and I also love the specialist termi units of the legions.  So I want to make my own custom termis, but realize I have a problem because they havent had a new pattern in ages and now basically everything firstborn is being phased out.  But maybe the forge fortress monastery idea above and chapter craftsmanship can solve this.  Maybe, with the chapter's preference for close combat they were dissatisfied with some primaris marine armors, like Aggressor and Inceptor armors, so decided to create a new suit of Mark X armor that is more similar to termi armor of old, but with the advances of modern tech.  Seems to solve the problem without breaking the rules doesn't it?  And Cawl is into new ideas, so its not so far fetched I think.

 

 

Also thinking of making a successor chapter (Talons Mordant is a working name atm) of either the Knight Wardens, or "Azure Chimeras" that will be trained by veterans from many chapters, making it difficult to trace their origins until they discover it themselves.  However, they will only be II Legion geneseed not combined like the Knight Wardens.  This other chapter will be quite new, with many primaris marines, focused on legion style recon squads, marksmanship and swordsmanship, using guerilla and ambush tactics to weaken enemies before hitting them with shock assaults by assault marines and terminators (although I am thinking of giving them no termis).  Their regular work behind enemy lines will lead them to discover their lineage and stronger connection to the Knight Wardens, and maybe work into this story arc as well.  Maybe they and the Knight Wardens are each geneseed experiments done at the orders of the Emperor?  Anyway, they will be publicly directed by either the High Lords or Lord Commander of the Imperium to hunt for Fabius Bile, as he becomes a growing concern thanks to information provided by the Inquisition (and yes this mostly because I hate Bile and any Slaanesh worshipers).

 

 

Unless you're as talented and capable as Ace (most aren't, I'm certainly not, much as I might try), I'd stick to fleshing and rounding out this chapter first before jumping into anything else, as you'll end up doing both chapters a disservice when things inevitably change on both ends and it becomes a mess.

 

By all means keep the idea around and even work on it a little as an overall concept, but wait till this one has some concrete foundations before you jump ship, at least in my opinion.

 

O yea, I have a gdoc for the ideas for it for later.  I will def do this first, otherwise, as you said, it will end up like many of my other IA ideas.

 

 

Over the course of their service to The Imperium, the Knight Wardens have developed a particularly vicious reputation in melee combat reminiscent of such savage chapters as The Executioners and Caracharodons. This dark reputation combined with their lack of tolerance for failure has cause many problems in the past, including clashes with other servants of The Imperium.

Suggest using another Chapter instead of the Carcharodons since that Chapter is actually rather unknown. Maybe Flesh Tearers? Or ower own brother Draakur's Desolators?  

 

A sound suggestion!

 

But of all weapons, there is one every battle brother favors above all others, a unique pattern of power mace found only within their chapter - the Crescent-pattern Power Mace.  The Crescent-pattern has the head of the mace formed from 6 razor-sharp crescents, like those found on their chapter badge (hence the name). This creates a weapon that combines the crushing blunt force of a power weapon wielded by a super-human with traumatic blades that tare open a wound when the weapon is retrieved from an enemy, both crushing bone and causing massive internal damage.  In the hands of a well trained warrior like an Astartes, a single well aimed blow from one of these weapons will mortally wound almost any enemy.  (OC - *inserts gif* "power maces? no, much more better!"*)

 

To me, what you describe is a morningstar

 

Believe me I agree 100%, you are correct.  But apparently the Imperium calls everything either a power sword, a power mace, or a power hammer.  They don't seem to understand that morningstar or its cousin the eveningstar exist as deadlier versions of a mace.  So I am stuck with power mace, and unfortunately, power morningstar doesn't sound very good.  If you have a suggestion for a better name, I'm listening.

 

 

 

 

"The Murder of the Stars" - a cataclysmic event involving Necrons and a Ctan shard and the destruction of a moon that leads to them getting their chapter badge a reoccurring theme of crescents.

 

Not sure about the crescents, I'd need to know more about the event, but Necron ships tend to be croissant sorry, crescent shaped in nature and I find it odd that a chapter would adopt the symbol of a xenos race they're fighting, even if it is just in ship aesthetics, unless the crescent existed in their symbology before hand.

 

That said, a cataclysmic event based around the Necrons is really cool and fitting right in with current 40k lore.

 

RL European heraldry have been known to use head of ottomans/other heathen, maybe it's something like that.

 

See above.  But rather amusing that I never thought of the pastry ships, I mean croissant sh.. I mean crescent ships, when writing that!

 

(I'm actually surprised that we have not seen any Chapter whose symbol is the skull of xeno species)

 

Thats a good point...

 

 

 

 

Regering the possibly mixed gene-seed and the possibility of them being from one of the lost legions do I agree with Grey Hunter Ydalir that it doesn't feel like it's adding anything. Maybe if the revelations for the Knight Wardens that their origins may be different than what they have always thought lead to them notably change their ways, like: create some kind of special group/s within the Chapter whose only mission is to look into their origin (One could argue my special termi dream is for that i guess?); made them begin to be in contact with the Salamanders and copy their ways even more as a way to reinforce within them that they are of Vulcan’s get, if not in flesh so in spirit (tbh i figured the Salamanders that helped train the chapter at its founding would do that, by imparting their crafting obsession); have made them uncertain about their place in the universe which have led them to do stupid/recless/strange/other stuff that they did not do before; have made them doubt themself and to clese the doubt have gone on a selfimposed crusade; etcetera. 

 

I wrote what I mean above, hopefully that allows you to bare with me.  Let me know what you think too.

 

And/or have that the revelation that they are have mixed gene-seed being something that explain some kind of strange behavior, mutation, cravings or social problems the Chapter have been suffering - it’s not mixed gene-seed but a good example would be the Swords of Haldroth who thought they were Ultramarine successors who suffered from strange symptoms, which they had worked hard to conceal from those around them. It was not until a chance meeting with Astorath the Grim that they found out that they were actually Blood Angels successors and changed name to the Carmine Blades (and likely also changed colours, and symbol, and ways to show company to the BA one).

 

See the fortress monastery discussion, I you gave me an idea!  Makes the mixed geneseed work much better!

 

 

"But one fact has always remained constant: The Chiss must be approached from a position of strength and respect. One must have strength, for the Chiss will deal only with those capable of keeping their promises. One must have respect, for the Chiss must believe that those promises will be kept." ―Passage from Mitth'raw'nuruodo journal[src]

 

So to boil it down, what makes the Chiss who they are as a 'character' race in Star wars can be broken down to just a few lines:

 

  • Isolationist to the point of secrecy.
  • View everything through a utilitarian lense.
  • Great warriors, proud and intensely loyal to one another.
  • Oligarchic society of noble houses, but mandated both in law and culture to serve the whole rather than themselves.
  • Unwilling to get involved in affairs that didn't directly relate to their people or security.

If I may spin on with this, something I can see explaining why they have a "Empire of the Hand" like situation and are highly isolationistic could be that they have been given an area of space as their protectorate and are more interested in protecting this area than serving the need of the wider Imperium or follow it rules.

 

Certainly a sense of independence is a part of the chapter, not unlike Thrawn.  As to whether they have a proper sovereignty, that will have to be thought of later, but its likely limited to their homeworld.

 

They could also have a kind of live and let live attitude toward xenos that don't attack them (possibly leading to them having one or more world in their area where xenos live, maybe even Aeldari Exodite worlds), this would lead them to being secretive since they don't want other Imperial forces to know about their utilitarian attitude* toward xenos.

* from their perspective 

 


Edited by The Lord Marshal, 10 December 2020 - 04:49 PM.

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#31
Brother Lunkhead

Brother Lunkhead

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Good to see the Knight Wardens backyes.gif There has been a lot of good discussion going on here. I'll throw throw my words into the barrel and see if anything useful comes to the toptongue.png

 

Geneseed: Brothers Grey Hunter and Gamiel make some good points about the mixed geneseed. I don't think this adds anything particularly interesting and seems more trouble than it's worth. Gene splicing in the 40Kverse does not have a good record. If you want something interesting, mysterious and a bit controversial why not just go straight to II Legion geneseed? GW has left us with some tantalizing tidbits of lore for the community to play with (the Ghoul Stars, the missing legions, etc.). There has been a lot of creative speculating here concerning the lost legions, but no one has a monopoly on them nor has anyone created any lore that would be considered canon. So why not add your own mark? 

 

There can still be a significant tie to the Salamanders. I'm just throwing out some ideas here:

  1. The Salamanders and II Legion share the gene trait of resistance to extreme temperature and harsh radiation. This is a very useful trait for more than one Legion to possess. Other legions share some traits.... Space Wolves and Blood Angels have prominent canines and are vicious close combat warriors, for example.
  2. Because of shared traits, during the early years of the Crusade both chapters worked closely and developed strong ties of friendship and honor.
  3. When the order went out to expunge the II Legion, Vulcan sheltered II Legion companies attached to XVIII Legion. Since both legions shared physical traits, this could be done fairly easily. Some II Legionnaires were integrated into XVIII companies and larger formations were sent out to distant outposts/missions, away from prying eyes. Only Vulcan and high ranking advisers are aware of this through the ages.
  4. The call for a 5th Founding gives the Salamanders the opportunity separate from these 'brothers' and give them their own destiny, separate from both the Salamanders chapter and the II Legion (of which these 'brothers' have no knowledge of). There is some precedence for this. The Ultramarines created the Sythes of the Emperor to excise the 'embarrassing' 11th Company during the 3rd Founding.

Tarnost: Homeworld, origins, etc...... 

 

Being an old guy, the Chiss reference was lost on me too. But, I get it nowbiggrin.png Like Brother Grey Hunter, I'd like to see more than blue skin (although I like this a lot). There's a lot of the Chiss culture and Thrawn himself to draw from that would be very interesting. So, I hope you pursue this further.

 

Like Brother Kelborn and Claws and Effect suggested, it would be simpler that the blue skin is a result of natural environment adaptation rather than genetic abnormalities within the population. The darker blue pigment and glowing red eyes would be the natural result of exposure over time to harsh temperatures and radiation during many campaigns by older Astartes of the Chapter and due to shared genetic traits with the Salamanders. Dark blue skin and red eyes would be a dominant feature marking out veterans of the Chapter.

 

Recently, battle-brothers serving with the Deathwatch have discovered ancient writings from their early history and artifacts long thought permanently lost.  But while these findings often present chapters with reason for celebration, these instead offer mysterious and potentially grave realizations.  As stated previously, the very first battle-brothers of the chapter lacked the now characteristic blue skin, as they did not hail from Tarnost, but where did they come from?  The ancient tale told to neophytes for thousands of years claim they were brothers of the Salamanders and the Storm Giants, but is that the whole truth?  The writings found while in service to the Deathwatch suggest that at least one battle-brother may have hailed from non-Vulkan lineage.  The artifacts, a partial suit of armor and the oathseal of one of the ancient Crescent Maces, point to the unthinkable.  Based on the seals of the parchment and armor as well as fragments of mostly burnt paint, that warrior belonged to the II Legion, a Lost Legion, which by all accounts is thought impossible.  All records of those Legions, their sires and their fates is expunged, yet here a piece remains.  The legions were known to have existed at some point, but the fate of their warriors after they were "lost" was never disclosed.  Various information implied that their warriors were at least partially absorbed into other legions.  If that were true, could it be possible that one of these warriors had survived past the heresy?  Even so, these possibilities did not answer why such an Astartes was allowed to help form a new chapter or why his armor was apparently deliberately burnt.  Despite providing more unwanted questions than answers, this does present the chapter with a closely guarded new truth.  The Knight Wardens are a far older chapter than anyone, including themselves, believed, whose origins are not as set-in-stone as the records tell.  For now, the Knight Wardens wisely keep this information among their highest leadership and the Emperor himself.

 

The core of this story looks very good. However, coupling it to the Deathwatch might be problematic (...or not) due to being a Ordo Militant of the Inquisition. An alternate explanation could be that these artifacts are discovered on worlds/moons/asteroids/comets in the vicinity of Tarnost.

 

Story of a company discovering a long lost legion armory with a dormant fellblade.  Techmarine touches fellblade suddenly partial awakens its machine spirit, techmarine uses his devices to interact with machine spirit, which states in text "right of the inheritors, son of the chimera."  basically leads the realization that for some reason the fellblade will only respond to those of its original legion or their gene-line, which as far as I know is not entirely unheard of for particularly revered and old machine spirits.  Leads marines to realize it somehow knows they descendants of its original legion, they see if lists their legion or parent chapter in it.  Machine spirit does not list whether it is a legion or chapter, but appears to be property of the "Azure Chimeras" confirming previously found vague references to the Knight Wardens be sired by the "Azure Chimeras" whatever they are.  Basically another piece to the puzzle and a convenient way to give them some archeotech.

 

I like this too. This armory could be found on Tarnost. Ten thousand years of dirt would eliminate any surface evidence of II Legion activity. Perhaps Tarnost was an ancient outpost of the II Legion (Coincidence? Maybe or maybe notdry.png).

 

I think you can fit in all of your story ideas nicely into your Chapter history, provided it is done right. Grey Hunter Ydalir makes excellent points concerning story telling and I think you would do well to take it to heart. Don't get so tied to a particular storyline if in the end it looks like you're forcing a square peg into a round whole. But if you can round the edges, so much the better.

 

As I said, the changes I've suggested are just that, suggestions. Feel free to use all or part,.....or none. Good luckbiggrin.png


Edited by Brother Lunkhead, 10 December 2020 - 08:45 PM.

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#32
Grey Hunter Ydalir

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I'll re-iterate, I dislike overt mentions of anything. I will say definitively in my opinion geneseed mixing and lost legion links are, if desired, best kept in the background and used as 'spice' to help the overall flavour of the chapter. It's seasoning that shouldn't replace a part of the main meal, which is something a lot of people tend to miss.

 

 

Yeah I read a Deathwatch book and realized that a brief story of the chapter's interactions there is the perfect venue for describing how the chapter develops relationships for good or ill with other chapters.  You are absolutely right, the inevitable conflict with more puritanical chapters, and by extension some sects of the Inquisition.

 

 

 

I'm with Lunkhead here. Using the Deathwatch angle is great for showing personality and character, and how they interact with the character of other chapters, not so much for physical objects. Their service is essentially black operations, so any artifacts or objects would fall under the possession of the Inquisition, and I don't think they'd be swayed by something as inconsequential as proximity to a chapter homeworld get in the way of their mandate and to argue with the Inquisition over the actions of their chamber militant, especially when the chapters that are signed on to donate brethren also sign off on all the conditions required. I don't think they have a leg to stand on here, to be honest.

 

It'd be down to a generous Inquisitor Lord signing something over to the chapter, though I don't know why they would, when it would benefit them more to simply keep them for use by the Inquisition/Deathwatch, and have no negative consequences at all, especially if a member of the chapter was on that particular Kill Team, they'd be sworn to silence just by their terms of service.

 

If you want to throw around artifacts, keep the Inquisition out of it, unless you need to have conflict for some reason, but realize that it's walking on a knife-edge. Just look at the Celestial Lions, or even the reborn Primaris Soul Drinkers for an example, as well as the implied destroyed chapters that have broken their oaths of silence of the Deathwatch.

 

 

I was definitely thinking of it that way, as a story of a member of the chapter, doing his vigil and interaction with other Astartes of chapters he may or may not know, developing bonds with some, butting heads with others.  Basically the mini story i have in mind would be in the section stating they commit brothers to the Deathwatch and talks about a brother's service there that developed relationships and a new tradition for the chapter's brothers that join it, regarding their relationships there and 2 relic Crescent-pattern power maces made by the chapter that is now in the Deathwatch armory.

 

 

 

Other than the maces since you know my opinion on relics from the Deathwatch, great concept. A small story like that can stand on it's own outside of the IA, or be a part of it, or just have a section of it used in the IA. It's up to you, but it's a good idea.

 

 

And that's all I have for now, as I've got to get back to work. Sorry for the short reply, but I'll see if I can come back to this later and pick up where I left off.


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The Octaguide.
The Thousand Marine Myth.

On the scale mismatch of bolts and bolters by Coldfyre

Commissar Molotov's Castigators - Essential reading for IA Creation.

"...I have seen the birth of this world and I have seen its death. I walked with the first men and I shared a beer with the last. For me everyone is both old and young at the same time as a million lifetimes pass before my eyes and humanity is like the grains of sand in the desert, each breath to me a sigh in the vast never-ending vacumn of space."
-Silver Phoenix


#33
Bjorn Firewalker

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Using the Deathwatch angle is great for showing personality and character, and how they interact with the character of other chapters, not so much for physical objects. Their service is essentially black operations, so any artifacts or objects would fall under the possession of the Inquisition, and I don't think they'd be swayed by something as inconsequential as proximity to a chapter homeworld get in the way of their mandate and to argue with the Inquisition over the actions of their chamber militant, especially when the chapters that are signed on to donate brethren also sign off on all the conditions required.


One possible explanation for why an Inquisitor will favor a Chapter this way: He's overambitious, and believes granting this boon will grant him the influence necessary to bring the Chapter under his direct control. (The fact the Deathwatch answers to Ordo Xenos, i.e., MULTIPLE Inquisitors, all of whom will likely object to placing such overwhelming power in an overambitious colleague's hands? That's a different matter.)
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Wolf Scout- Catachan barking toad eggs+ Thousand Sons Marine= Fun! (Wolves of Catachan)

Warhammer 40,000+ Star Wars- Rian Johnson- Reylo= AWESOME! (Knights of Renaissance)

Reasons to use the Steel Crusaders ('Codex: Space Marines' supplement) or the Iron-hearted Angels ('Codex: Blood Angels' supplement): Because you think giving Sternguard Veterans a heavy bolter wtih special issue HEAVY BOLTER ammunition is ALMOST as much fun as shoehorning an Earthshaker cannon into a Land Raider.

#34
The Lord Marshal

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Thank you again for all these great replies guys!  No worries Ydalir on having to get back to life.  I have read all, and will properly reply tomorrow.  Its midnight here and my brain is shot from the week.


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Current Work:

Knight Wardens http://www.bolterand...iss-spazmarinz/

Ashen Claws Successor http://www.bolterand...laws-successor/

Catalog of all my DIYs: http://www.bolterand...TheLordMarshal/

Other interests:  

My DeviantArt account: http://the-lord-mars...deviantart.com/

The Fleet Thread http://www.bolterand...-of-the-heresy/

The Liber Cluster http://www.bolterand...-liber-cluster/

Im also on TheDarkCity.net, a Dark Eldar fansite  http://www.thedarkcity.net/u1638


#35
Gamiel

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Some more or less collected thoughts:

 

Regarding that the Wardens was believed to be Salamanders successors, how established was this belief? Did the Imperial records declare them Salamanders successors and the Salamanders see them as their kin or is it more of a thing where the Wardens believed themselves to be Salamanders and the Imperial records stated something like “probably Salamanders successes”?

 

Also, what was the Wardens relationship with the Salamanders before finding out that they maybe have been wrong in their belief? Did they try to have semi-constant contact with each other? Did the Wardens try to follow the Promethean Cult, and if so how orthodox were they in their following of it?

 

And how did their relationship change after the events that have made them rethink their belief regarding their linage?

 

-------------------------

Some thought about how a Chiss / Thrawn based Chapter (more Thrawn than chiss I admit since I know him better) could look like. Based on just that and not what have already been established about the Knight Wardens, mostly for me to get it out of my system but hopefully it will give you some ideas that you can use. 

+ Like art and likes to look upon a specie’s/culture’s art when thinking/meditating upon how to defeat them. If they can find something made by the leader/s of the enemy the better.

+ Try to save, or at least record, the art from enemies they defeat and likely have galleries and/or archives filled with nothing but the art of their enemies – this could lead to some problems if some of the art is actually of Warp origin or have some other function beside looking pleasing.

+ Smart but not as smart as they think, and/or arrogant in their belief that they have thought of everything.

+ Likes to have an audience of some kind to explain their reasoning over. The audience should be smart/educated enough to truly appreciate their genius but not their true equal; likes to keep some of the steps of their reasoning to themselves to give themselves an air of mystery and genius.

+ Homeworld and/or recruitment world/s should be cold but not primitive.

+ Self-controlled and civil but has at the same time no problem killing people just because they have been incompetent, and their civility is from a position that they are superior. Possibly have an air of arrogance.

+ Ysalamirs could be represented that the Chapter have somehow a number of pariahs in their service. I don’t have any explanation to how they got them, maybe they are allied to an Inquisitor, an Inquisitor Ordo, or the Sisters of Silence.

+ The Chiss Ascendancy/Empire of the Hand could be translated into that the Chapter see their near area as their protectorate (and maybe was actually given the role as protectors over it by the Lords of Terra once upon a time) and are more interested in protecting this area than serving the need of the wider Imperium or follow it rules.

+ The Ascendancy had taken the existing TIE design and upgrade it to the Nssis-class Clawcraft; this could be translated into the Chapter taking existing design and heretekial modifying them to improv their capability. Or maybe even reverse engineering xeno-tech.

+ Thrawn using non-chiss for his own ends could translate to the Chapter secretly using xeno-mercenaries of maybe even having a xeno-auxilia or assassins made up by some (more or less) primitive species that exist in their space. If the later would it be fitting that the xenos loyalty is based on a lie or trickery to keep them in servitude.

+ Decorations should not be the high amount of bling many Chapters have, likely rather minimalistic actually.

 

-------------------------------------

 

Regarding the Gorgon terminators, a way you could justify the Wardens having them is that the Wardens are hereteks: they have studied Gorgon terminator suits (maybe after finding one and not telling anybody about it) and have been able to copy those patterns. Or even worse, they have been able to create a terminator suit that in practice function as the Gorgon pattern by reassuring, experimenting and inventing!


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#36
Ace Debonair

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Updated version - Chiss Space Marines. ....and wait for heresy to be shouted!....plz no 

 

eek.gif

HERESY!

… I have no idea what this "Chiss" is, but I know a verbal cue when I see one! happy.png

NOTE: I gather it's something to do with Star Wars.
Honestly, I'm not a fan of Star Wars, so please forgive me if I can't bring myself to research this further.
Instead, I'll try to evaluate what you've got here on it's own merits.  biggrin.png

I also haven't read all the previous replies (I haven't got the time, sadly), so please forgive if I wind up repeating advice that has already been given a dozen times.
 

The warriors of Tarnost constantly battle not only for their noble houses, but for the notice of the Angels of Death and Emperor of Mankind, for the best of their youth are chosen to join the watchful.  These neophytes, should they survive the trials and implantation process, emerge with an appearance reminiscent of their genesire and their homeworld, Astartes with dark blue skin and red eyes.  The culture of the chapter is a combination of ways of Vulkan and their feudal home.  The battle-brothers favor fierce close combat with weapons inspired by medieval times.  But these technologically advanced knights are also smiths, following the teachings of Vulkan.  Knight Wardens typically work with their brothers to maintain, refine and customize their armor and weapons of war.  They are sons of the fire in their own way.  But they are also stubborn, as their homeworld's cultural influence of high personal expectations, coupled with the expectations of an Astartes, has made them extremely intolerant of failure.  This over-expectation has caused conflicts with other Imperial forces and at times, unwanted questions.


This bit here, this is the good stuff. Packed full of character, a good blend of traits, both positive and negative, and gives a good idea of what, personality-wise, to expect from the Knight Wardens. thumbsup.gif

No heresy detected so far, although I'd join the chorus advising having your marines blue and your homeworld's people less so, if only because I can't think of any other examples of blue-skinned humans in the Imperium.

And also because it puts the focus on your Chapter looking unique, instead of their homeworld looking unique, which is a plus.

 

Knight Wardens favor power maces, power axes and lightning claws, although they do make use of conventional close combat weapons such as power swords and chain axes (they tend not to favor chainswords).  But of all weapons, there is one every battle brother favors above all others, a unique pattern of power mace found only within their chapter - the Crescent-pattern Power Mace.  The Crescent-pattern has the head of the mace formed from 6 razor-sharp crescents, like those found on their chapter badge (hence the name). This creates a weapon that combines the crushing blunt force of a power weapon wielded by a super-human with traumatic blades that tare open a wound when the weapon is retrieved from an enemy, both crushing bone and causing massive internal damage.  In the hands of a well trained warrior like an Astartes, a single well aimed blow from one of these weapons will mortally wound almost any enemy.  (OC - *inserts gif* "power maces? no, much more better!"*)


I think you've gone into a little too much detail here regarding weapon preferences. sweat.gif
It's not a problem per se - it's always good to have this sort of information, even if you never use it - but this could be summed up as "The Chapter makes use of an atypical pattern of Power Mace, dubbed the 'Crescent Mace' by the Knight Wardens."

I'd like to know more about how the KW fight as a whole - what types of units would an onlooker typically see in a KW attack force? What sort of tactics?

(Don't worry about rules and the like when answering this. It's about what units fit the character of your Chapter, rather than which units you get results with on the tabletop)
 

Recently, battle-brothers serving with the Deathwatch have discovered ancient writings from their early history and artifacts long thought permanently lost.  But while these findings often present chapters with reason for celebration, these instead offer mysterious and potentially grave realizations.  As stated previously, the very first battle-brothers of the chapter lacked the now characteristic blue skin, as they did not hail from Tarnost, but where did they come from?  The ancient tale told to neophytes for thousands of years claim they were brothers of the Salamanders and the Storm Giants, but is that the whole truth?  The writings found while in service to the Deathwatch suggest that at least one battle-brother may have hailed from non-Vulkan lineage.  The artifacts, a partial suit of armor and the oathseal of one of the ancient Crescent Maces, point to the unthinkable.  Based on the seals of the parchment and armor as well as fragments of mostly burnt paint, that warrior belonged to the II Legion, a Lost Legion, which by all accounts is thought impossible.  All records of those Legions, their sires and their fates is expunged, yet here a piece remains.  The legions were known to have existed at some point, but the fate of their warriors after they were "lost" was never disclosed.  Various information implied that their warriors were at least partially absorbed into other legions.  If that were true, could it be possible that one of these warriors had survived past the heresy?  Even so, these possibilities did not answer why such an Astartes was allowed to help form a new chapter or why his armor was apparently deliberately burnt.  Despite providing more unwanted questions than answers, this does present the chapter with a closely guarded new truth.  The Knight Wardens are a far older chapter than anyone, including themselves, believed, whose origins are not as set-in-stone as the records tell.  For now, the Knight Wardens wisely keep this information among their highest leadership and the Emperor himself.

 
Ah, right. There's the Lost Legion stuff you mentioned.
I see you've gone for the "secret heritage" route, too.  I'm all for subtlety and secrets in a Chapter, but it's a difficult road to walk.

 

And with the Lost Legions, it's much, much harder still. It is, in fact, a very, very difficult thing to do well, and it's pretty complicated to explain why, but I'll give it a go.  happy.png

It's like this:

Say you had it so instead there was a chance the KW were descended from, let's pick one at random, pre-heresy Iron Warriors, instead of the II Legion.

Keeping that as a secret would be very important, of course. But you could drop a few hints throughout the article here and there. It'd be fairly easy to do, as the Iron Warriors have a distinct personality and history.

A few brief comments sprinkled through the article later (for example, saying they have a talent for siege battles and preference for armoured assaults, a bitter intolerance for failure, and a tendency to look at warfare coldly and dispassionately) and you have some pseudo-subtle hints that your Chapter might secretly descend from the IV Legion. This can be expanded on with a note about the geneseed later, if the Chapter knows the truth (and you want the reader to know the truth!), or left without further comment so readers can draw their own conclusions.

It's much, much harder to do that for the Lost Legions, because we don't know what they were like.

You can't really drop actual hints to the II Legion's personality, because nobody would be able to identify it as a hint, because nobody knows what the II Legion's personality was like. sweat.gif

For that to work, you have to fully create and flesh out your own version of the II Legion, and even then it's got to be something that readers will read and go "yeah, there's room for this in my version of 40k, I'd be cool with these guys being the II Legion".

And then you can safely start dropping subtle hints or tying things to the Lost Legion in this Chapter. laugh.png

It is, all in all, a HUGE amount of work (I cannot overstate how huge an amount of work it is), and for very little reward, because there is no trait you can really add as a hint about the II Legion that wouldn't just be better (And more believable) as just a quirk of your Chapter.

TL;DR:

Shoehorning in the Lost Legions subtracts more from your Chapter than it adds 99.999% of the time, and I'd personally advise against it.

 

But In all fairness, I think you can easily make this an interesting, flavourful Chapter without the Lost Legion stuff. It's got a solid core - skilled smiths, relentless fighters, with a touch of arrogance that can get them into trouble sometimes. That's interesting already!


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#37
Gamiel

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You can't really drop actual hints to the II Legion's personality, because nobody would be able to identify it as a hint, because nobody knows what the II Legion's personality was like. sweat.gif

 

But something you could do is to base your hints to the II Legion's personality on one of the more developed fan Lost Legions, like brother Athrawes's Lightning Bearers


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#38
Ace Debonair

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You can't really drop actual hints to the II Legion's personality, because nobody would be able to identify it as a hint, because nobody knows what the II Legion's personality was like. sweat.gif

But something you could do is to base your hints to the II Legion's personality on one of the more developed fan Lost Legions, like brother Athrawes's Lightning Bearers

 


That is absolutely one option, although I think it'd be best to ask permission first. happy.png

 

But for every person who thinks the Lightning Bearers are the greatest thing ever, there's another person with their own idea of what the II Legion was, and another who's never even heard of the Lightning Bearers.

 

It's still a divisive move, in short, no matter what how you approach it. sweat.gif

 

This is not to say it shouldn't be done, just that linking in Lost Legions is a lot of work, for very little gain.

Whatever traits you want from the II Legion can probably be wrangled from one of the Canon Eighteen Legions. And if it's something that can't be linked to an existing Legion, it's generally better just as a trait for your Chapter, instead of dragging the focus onto another organisation entirely.

 

I'm sure there's exceptions to what I've just said, but in the case of this Chapter, specifically, I genuinely think it's not only better without the Lost Legion, but that the Knight Wardens honestly don't need the II Legion, because the core of the Chapter itself is already pretty rich with personality. happy.png


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#39
The Lord Marshal

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Omg I cant even keep up with you guys now!  Thank you for all these great help!

 

So I am going to reply to each wave in 1 multipost each.  So mods plz forgive the heresy of 2 posts.  Then I think I am going to re-read/update the main post with a new version relative to our discussions here, and copy the old one on to a post here for reference.  Then everyone can see what they think of the refined/reworked version.

 

 

Good to see the Knight Wardens backyes.gif There has been a lot of good discussion going on here. I'll throw throw my words into the barrel and see if anything useful comes to the toptongue.png

 

Geneseed: Brothers Grey Hunter and Gamiel make some good points about the mixed geneseed. I don't think this adds anything particularly interesting and seems more trouble than it's worth. Gene splicing in the 40Kverse does not have a good record. If you want something interesting, mysterious and a bit controversial why not just go straight to II Legion geneseed? GW has left us with some tantalizing tidbits of lore for the community to play with (the Ghoul Stars, the missing legions, etc.). There has been a lot of creative speculating here concerning the lost legions, but no one has a monopoly on them nor has anyone created any lore that would be considered canon. So why not add your own mark? 

 

There can still be a significant tie to the Salamanders. I'm just throwing out some ideas here:

  1. The Salamanders and II Legion share the gene trait of resistance to extreme temperature and harsh radiation. This is a very useful trait for more than one Legion to possess. Other legions share some traits.... Space Wolves and Blood Angels have prominent canines and are vicious close combat warriors, for example.
  2. Because of shared traits, during the early years of the Crusade both chapters worked closely and developed strong ties of friendship and honor.
  3. When the order went out to expunge the II Legion, Vulcan sheltered II Legion companies attached to XVIII Legion. Since both legions shared physical traits, this could be done fairly easily. Some II Legionnaires were integrated into XVIII companies and larger formations were sent out to distant outposts/missions, away from prying eyes. Only Vulcan and high ranking advisers are aware of this through the ages.
  4. The call for a 5th Founding gives the Salamanders the opportunity separate from these 'brothers' and give them their own destiny, separate from both the Salamanders chapter and the II Legion (of which these 'brothers' have no knowledge of). There is some precedence for this. The Ultramarines created the Sythes of the Emperor to excise the 'embarrassing' 11th Company during the 3rd Founding.

Tarnost: Homeworld, origins, etc...... 

 

Being an old guy, the Chiss reference was lost on me too. But, I get it nowbiggrin.png Like Brother Grey Hunter, I'd like to see more than blue skin (although I like this a lot). There's a lot of the Chiss culture and Thrawn himself to draw from that would be very interesting. So, I hope you pursue this further.

 

Like Brother Kelborn and Claws and Effect suggested, it would be simpler that the blue skin is a result of natural environment adaptation rather than genetic abnormalities within the population. The darker blue pigment and glowing red eyes would be the natural result of exposure over time to harsh temperatures and radiation during many campaigns by older Astartes of the Chapter and due to shared genetic traits with the Salamanders. Dark blue skin and red eyes would be a dominant feature marking out veterans of the Chapter.

 

Recently, battle-brothers serving with the Deathwatch have discovered ancient writings from their early history and artifacts long thought permanently lost.  But while these findings often present chapters with reason for celebration, these instead offer mysterious and potentially grave realizations.  As stated previously, the very first battle-brothers of the chapter lacked the now characteristic blue skin, as they did not hail from Tarnost, but where did they come from?  The ancient tale told to neophytes for thousands of years claim they were brothers of the Salamanders and the Storm Giants, but is that the whole truth?  The writings found while in service to the Deathwatch suggest that at least one battle-brother may have hailed from non-Vulkan lineage.  The artifacts, a partial suit of armor and the oathseal of one of the ancient Crescent Maces, point to the unthinkable.  Based on the seals of the parchment and armor as well as fragments of mostly burnt paint, that warrior belonged to the II Legion, a Lost Legion, which by all accounts is thought impossible.  All records of those Legions, their sires and their fates is expunged, yet here a piece remains.  The legions were known to have existed at some point, but the fate of their warriors after they were "lost" was never disclosed.  Various information implied that their warriors were at least partially absorbed into other legions.  If that were true, could it be possible that one of these warriors had survived past the heresy?  Even so, these possibilities did not answer why such an Astartes was allowed to help form a new chapter or why his armor was apparently deliberately burnt.  Despite providing more unwanted questions than answers, this does present the chapter with a closely guarded new truth.  The Knight Wardens are a far older chapter than anyone, including themselves, believed, whose origins are not as set-in-stone as the records tell.  For now, the Knight Wardens wisely keep this information among their highest leadership and the Emperor himself.

 

The core of this story looks very good. However, coupling it to the Deathwatch might be problematic (...or not) due to being a Ordo Militant of the Inquisition. An alternate explanation could be that these artifacts are discovered on worlds/moons/asteroids/comets in the vicinity of Tarnost.

 

Story of a company discovering a long lost legion armory with a dormant fellblade.  Techmarine touches fellblade suddenly partial awakens its machine spirit, techmarine uses his devices to interact with machine spirit, which states in text "right of the inheritors, son of the chimera."  basically leads the realization that for some reason the fellblade will only respond to those of its original legion or their gene-line, which as far as I know is not entirely unheard of for particularly revered and old machine spirits.  Leads marines to realize it somehow knows they descendants of its original legion, they see if lists their legion or parent chapter in it.  Machine spirit does not list whether it is a legion or chapter, but appears to be property of the "Azure Chimeras" confirming previously found vague references to the Knight Wardens be sired by the "Azure Chimeras" whatever they are.  Basically another piece to the puzzle and a convenient way to give them some archeotech.

 

I like this too. This armory could be found on Tarnost. Ten thousand years of dirt would eliminate any surface evidence of II Legion activity. Perhaps Tarnost was an ancient outpost of the II Legion (Coincidence? Maybe or maybe notdry.png).

 

I think you can fit in all of your story ideas nicely into your Chapter history, provided it is done right. Grey Hunter Ydalir makes excellent points concerning story telling and I think you would do well to take it to heart. Don't get so tied to a particular storyline if in the end it looks like you're forcing a square peg into a round whole. But if you can round the edges, so much the better.

 

As I said, the changes I've suggested are just that, suggestions. Feel free to use all or part,.....or none. Good luckbiggrin.png

 

I suppose the only reason I did the Vulkan geneseed was for the crafting obsession and as a cover for the II legion geneseed, plus for the red eyes.  I guess realistically i could just make them only II legion geneseed, but have it officially be wrong in Imp records as Vulkan.  And i could keep the Salamanders imparting their crafting thing by being part of the training cadre for the first members of the chapter.  It would dramatically change much otherwise.

 

I like the idea of putting my own spin on whomever they are descended from.  That might also help solve some of the "give hints to lineage but not too much" problem as well.  I never thought of the shared traits between legions point you made, I like that, it makes alot of sense and would help smooth things other a bit.  After all the cake is a looking a little ratchet right now, or a bit frankenstein, for lack of a better analogy.

 

"Being an old guy" lol hey us younger folks gotta keep you on your toes somehow right?biggrin.png

 

Yea, funny enough, they should def re-read this in the future, because I was looking back at their ideas relative to our discussions.  I think I will go back to the idea of the blue skin being a mutation in the II legion geneseed, rather than mutation of the population.  This would give another reason to used that geneseed and also allow me to change other aspects of their development more easily.  However, I will work it as a mutation that has an immediate effect on the new initiates rather than a gradual one, but perhaps the mutation in the chapter as a whole advanced over time.

 

Yea, the Deathwatch a convenient tool at the time due to that story i mentioned a little more somewhere above.  I do see now that you have pointed this out, that regarding those chapter specific artifacts, that part of the pieces of the puzzle are best inserted somewhere else.  The Deathwatch in respect to those artifacts could def be a problem, so I will figure out where rework that.

 

Thats a great additional idea.  How about I have the Murder of the Stars event, as brainstormed somewhere above, destroy their original homeworld, but is in the same sector as Tarnost, which turns out to be an forgotten II legion base.  The passage of time, as you said, would certainly get rid of any paint or banners.

 

Everything is starting to come together nowhappy.png yes.gif

 

I'll re-iterate, I dislike overt mentions of anything. I will say definitively in my opinion geneseed mixing and lost legion links are, if desired, best kept in the background and used as 'spice' to help the overall flavour of the chapter. It's seasoning that shouldn't replace a part of the main meal, which is something a lot of people tend to miss.

 

 

Yeah I read a Deathwatch book and realized that a brief story of the chapter's interactions there is the perfect venue for describing how the chapter develops relationships for good or ill with other chapters.  You are absolutely right, the inevitable conflict with more puritanical chapters, and by extension some sects of the Inquisition.

 

 

 

I'm with Lunkhead here. Using the Deathwatch angle is great for showing personality and character, and how they interact with the character of other chapters, not so much for physical objects. Their service is essentially black operations, so any artifacts or objects would fall under the possession of the Inquisition, and I don't think they'd be swayed by something as inconsequential as proximity to a chapter homeworld get in the way of their mandate and to argue with the Inquisition over the actions of their chamber militant, especially when the chapters that are signed on to donate brethren also sign off on all the conditions required. I don't think they have a leg to stand on here, to be honest.

 

It'd be down to a generous Inquisitor Lord signing something over to the chapter, though I don't know why they would, when it would benefit them more to simply keep them for use by the Inquisition/Deathwatch, and have no negative consequences at all, especially if a member of the chapter was on that particular Kill Team, they'd be sworn to silence just by their terms of service.

 

If you want to throw around artifacts, keep the Inquisition out of it, unless you need to have conflict for some reason, but realize that it's walking on a knife-edge. Just look at the Celestial Lions, or even the reborn Primaris Soul Drinkers for an example, as well as the implied destroyed chapters that have broken their oaths of silence of the Deathwatch.

 

 

I was definitely thinking of it that way, as a story of a member of the chapter, doing his vigil and interaction with other Astartes of chapters he may or may not know, developing bonds with some, butting heads with others.  Basically the mini story i have in mind would be in the section stating they commit brothers to the Deathwatch and talks about a brother's service there that developed relationships and a new tradition for the chapter's brothers that join it, regarding their relationships there and 2 relic Crescent-pattern power maces made by the chapter that is now in the Deathwatch armory.

 

 

 

Other than the maces since you know my opinion on relics from the Deathwatch, great concept. A small story like that can stand on it's own outside of the IA, or be a part of it, or just have a section of it used in the IA. It's up to you, but it's a good idea.

 

 

And that's all I have for now, as I've got to get back to work. Sorry for the short reply, but I'll see if I can come back to this later and pick up where I left off.

 

Ooo cooking references I can def understand.  But stop making me hungry, lol (i actual did get a snack lol).

 

Yea as I stated further up here, I see how that could be an issue now and will rework it somewhere else.  Speaking of the CL, what the hell is the Inquisition's problem them?  They really do want to destroy them.

 

I think you misunderstood how I would use the maces, they would be like many weapons in the Deathwatch, essentially gifts from the chapter that were used by champions of their chapter when they served there.  Basically, when KW serve in the Deathwatch, they might gain the right to wield one of these relics, which after the death of their original KW, were kept by the Deathwatch.  The fact that there are 2 is important, but I wont spoil the story yet.  So glad this idea is otherwise solid, also glad I actually remember it!

 

 

Using the Deathwatch angle is great for showing personality and character, and how they interact with the character of other chapters, not so much for physical objects. Their service is essentially black operations, so any artifacts or objects would fall under the possession of the Inquisition, and I don't think they'd be swayed by something as inconsequential as proximity to a chapter homeworld get in the way of their mandate and to argue with the Inquisition over the actions of their chamber militant, especially when the chapters that are signed on to donate brethren also sign off on all the conditions required.


One possible explanation for why an Inquisitor will favor a Chapter this way: He's overambitious, and believes granting this boon will grant him the influence necessary to bring the Chapter under his direct control. (The fact the Deathwatch answers to Ordo Xenos, i.e., MULTIPLE Inquisitors, all of whom will likely object to placing such overwhelming power in an overambitious colleague's hands? That's a different matter.)

 

 

Certainly an interesting alternative, but I think the chapter's brutality and blue skin mutation will cause enough friction with the Inquisition.  I will just rework it elsewhere and keep the Deathwatch to my ministory on chapter to chapter relations and the power mace thing.


Edited by The Lord Marshal, 12 December 2020 - 11:11 PM.

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The Lord Marshal

The Lord Marshal

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Round 2 folks

 

I will say on these I have seen alot of speculation on possibly playing with them being hereteks.  So i wanted to just be clear, this chapter I will not be going down that road.  I have a Ashen Claws successor to finish that is already a renegade group walking the line of damnation, I would like to keep this one clean for once.  Plus, I think I have enough heresy here as it is LOLermm.gif No please! I burn for Vulkan, not those censored.gif !!  Away with you Inquisition! 

 

 

Some more or less collected thoughts:

 

Regarding that the Wardens was believed to be Salamanders successors, how established was this belief? Did the Imperial records declare them Salamanders successors and the Salamanders see them as their kin or is it more of a thing where the Wardens believed themselves to be Salamanders and the Imperial records stated something like “probably Salamanders successes”?

 

Also, what was the Wardens relationship with the Salamanders before finding out that they maybe have been wrong in their belief? Did they try to have semi-constant contact with each other? Did the Wardens try to follow the Promethean Cult, and if so how orthodox were they in their following of it?

 

And how did their relationship change after the events that have made them rethink their belief regarding their linage?

 

-------------------------

Some thought about how a Chiss / Thrawn based Chapter (more Thrawn than chiss I admit since I know him better) could look like. Based on just that and not what have already been established about the Knight Wardens, mostly for me to get it out of my system but hopefully it will give you some ideas that you can use. 

+ Like art and likes to look upon a specie’s/culture’s art when thinking/meditating upon how to defeat them. If they can find something made by the leader/s of the enemy the better.

+ Try to save, or at least record, the art from enemies they defeat and likely have galleries and/or archives filled with nothing but the art of their enemies – this could lead to some problems if some of the art is actually of Warp origin or have some other function beside looking pleasing.

+ Smart but not as smart as they think, and/or arrogant in their belief that they have thought of everything.

+ Likes to have an audience of some kind to explain their reasoning over. The audience should be smart/educated enough to truly appreciate their genius but not their true equal; likes to keep some of the steps of their reasoning to themselves to give themselves an air of mystery and genius.

+ Homeworld and/or recruitment world/s should be cold but not primitive.

+ Self-controlled and civil but has at the same time no problem killing people just because they have been incompetent, and their civility is from a position that they are superior. Possibly have an air of arrogance.

+ Ysalamirs could be represented that the Chapter have somehow a number of pariahs in their service. I don’t have any explanation to how they got them, maybe they are allied to an Inquisitor, an Inquisitor Ordo, or the Sisters of Silence.

+ The Chiss Ascendancy/Empire of the Hand could be translated into that the Chapter see their near area as their protectorate (and maybe was actually given the role as protectors over it by the Lords of Terra once upon a time) and are more interested in protecting this area than serving the need of the wider Imperium or follow it rules.

+ The Ascendancy had taken the existing TIE design and upgrade it to the Nssis-class Clawcraft; this could be translated into the Chapter taking existing design and heretekial modifying them to improv their capability. Or maybe even reverse engineering xeno-tech.

+ Thrawn using non-chiss for his own ends could translate to the Chapter secretly using xeno-mercenaries of maybe even having a xeno-auxilia or assassins made up by some (more or less) primitive species that exist in their space. If the later would it be fitting that the xenos loyalty is based on a lie or trickery to keep them in servitude.

+ Decorations should not be the high amount of bling many Chapters have, likely rather minimalistic actually.

 

-------------------------------------

 

Regarding the Gorgon terminators, a way you could justify the Wardens having them is that the Wardens are hereteks: they have studied Gorgon terminator suits (maybe after finding one and not telling anybody about it) and have been able to copy those patterns. Or even worse, they have been able to create a terminator suit that in practice function as the Gorgon pattern by reassuring, experimenting and inventing!

 

Basically the idea was that in official Imp records they were Salamanders successors, which would be supported by the red eyes, and the crafting obsession thing gained from being trained by some of them.  They did not follow the Promethean cult, they left that to the Salamanders.

 

This all said, and as discussed in the post just before this, it does make more sense to have the records think they are Vulkan lineage, but have them actually just be II legion with some mutations.  Plus, I have recently thought of how the marines would be in terms of spirituality, cuz almost every article talks about that relative to a chapter, and my idea would work better if they did not know their lineage concretely and would add to the cultural development as well.

 

It would be very cool to incorporated the keeping art aspect into the chapter, since that is a hallmark of Thrawn.  However, as others have reminded me, the current Imperium is very purgy when it comes to keeping anything that isnt human essentially.  It aint the Great Crusade anymore unfortunately.  But, I could have them study their foes art to learn how to better defeat them, and keep like a major piece as a trophy of the campaign.  That I think is about as far as the bloody Inquisition would let me take it, but at least its something!

 

Unfortunately, for these guys I never thought of a cold homeworld, but I am thinking of making their original homeworld be cold.  I am thinking of having Tarnost have creatures that are quite dangerous (several not one) that are hunted and used as trophies/ornament.  These varied creatures would have certain parts of a mythological chimera, but not all.  Seems fitting.

 

Yea the Thrawn, no problem killing ppl that are incompetent is basically being modified here as their intolerance for failure due to weakness or lack of initiative.  Which would fit with Thrawns character to some extant and would certainly include KW having to problem executing IG officers and such for that.  This intolerance for character weakness in anyone including themselves, is actually one of my fav parts of the KW cuz its also a flaw? of mine, its just exaggerated quite severely here (obviously, I would hope lol, I dont go around murdering IG).wacko.png

 

The Pariah analog idea sounds very interesting.  But, with those drawn from the geneline of the Emperor through the Primarchs, is that even possible?  I was thinking of making the librarians have the natural aptitude for the 2 abilities that the rare force-sensitive Chiss did in Star Wars Legends (bloody Disneyverymad.gif ).  Those are an aptitude for telekinesis and precognition.

 

Rather than the KW having a protectorate, I am thinking that if I make Tarnost a former II legion world, maybe the sector, by coincidence dry.png , once was the protectorate of the II legion?  They wouldnt know that of course, but Id stick it somewhere for the readers.

 

I also like the spacecraft design idea, but I thought of the problem of apparently space marine starfighters being very rare now, which makes no sense to me but nevermind that.  But I suppose if i redo that custom termi idea to making a spin off of...uh whatever the current armor is called...but in Mark X, it kind fits this idea.

 

O xenos is heresy, I cant do that.  As i said above, I specifically do not want to seal their fate on this one.  Must not piss off the Bah-humbug Patrol, I mean Holy Inquisition, more than I already am.happy.png

 

Technically one could argue that limited decoration is a Thrawn thing, since the hyper-minimalism is more a Chiss species and Empire specific thing than it is a Thrawn thing.  Minimalism will be something the original chapter will have, but later on def loses.

 

 

Updated version - Chiss Space Marines. ....and wait for heresy to be shouted!....plz no 

 

eek.gif

HERESY!

… I have no idea what this "Chiss" is, but I know a verbal cue when I see one! happy.png

NOTE: I gather it's something to do with Star Wars.
Honestly, I'm not a fan of Star Wars, so please forgive me if I can't bring myself to research this further.
Instead, I'll try to evaluate what you've got here on it's own merits.  biggrin.png

I also haven't read all the previous replies (I haven't got the time, sadly), so please forgive if I wind up repeating advice that has already been given a dozen times.
 

The warriors of Tarnost constantly battle not only for their noble houses, but for the notice of the Angels of Death and Emperor of Mankind, for the best of their youth are chosen to join the watchful.  These neophytes, should they survive the trials and implantation process, emerge with an appearance reminiscent of their genesire and their homeworld, Astartes with dark blue skin and red eyes.  The culture of the chapter is a combination of ways of Vulkan and their feudal home.  The battle-brothers favor fierce close combat with weapons inspired by medieval times.  But these technologically advanced knights are also smiths, following the teachings of Vulkan.  Knight Wardens typically work with their brothers to maintain, refine and customize their armor and weapons of war.  They are sons of the fire in their own way.  But they are also stubborn, as their homeworld's cultural influence of high personal expectations, coupled with the expectations of an Astartes, has made them extremely intolerant of failure.  This over-expectation has caused conflicts with other Imperial forces and at times, unwanted questions.


This bit here, this is the good stuff. Packed full of character, a good blend of traits, both positive and negative, and gives a good idea of what, personality-wise, to expect from the Knight Wardens. thumbsup.gif

No heresy detected so far, although I'd join the chorus advising having your marines blue and your homeworld's people less so, if only because I can't think of any other examples of blue-skinned humans in the Imperium.

And also because it puts the focus on your Chapter looking unique, instead of their homeworld looking unique, which is a plus.

 

Knight Wardens favor power maces, power axes and lightning claws, although they do make use of conventional close combat weapons such as power swords and chain axes (they tend not to favor chainswords).  But of all weapons, there is one every battle brother favors above all others, a unique pattern of power mace found only within their chapter - the Crescent-pattern Power Mace.  The Crescent-pattern has the head of the mace formed from 6 razor-sharp crescents, like those found on their chapter badge (hence the name). This creates a weapon that combines the crushing blunt force of a power weapon wielded by a super-human with traumatic blades that tare open a wound when the weapon is retrieved from an enemy, both crushing bone and causing massive internal damage.  In the hands of a well trained warrior like an Astartes, a single well aimed blow from one of these weapons will mortally wound almost any enemy.  (OC - *inserts gif* "power maces? no, much more better!"*)


I think you've gone into a little too much detail here regarding weapon preferences. sweat.gif
It's not a problem per se - it's always good to have this sort of information, even if you never use it - but this could be summed up as "The Chapter makes use of an atypical pattern of Power Mace, dubbed the 'Crescent Mace' by the Knight Wardens."

I'd like to know more about how the KW fight as a whole - what types of units would an onlooker typically see in a KW attack force? What sort of tactics?

(Don't worry about rules and the like when answering this. It's about what units fit the character of your Chapter, rather than which units you get results with on the tabletop)
 

Recently, battle-brothers serving with the Deathwatch have discovered ancient writings from their early history and artifacts long thought permanently lost.  But while these findings often present chapters with reason for celebration, these instead offer mysterious and potentially grave realizations.  As stated previously, the very first battle-brothers of the chapter lacked the now characteristic blue skin, as they did not hail from Tarnost, but where did they come from?  The ancient tale told to neophytes for thousands of years claim they were brothers of the Salamanders and the Storm Giants, but is that the whole truth?  The writings found while in service to the Deathwatch suggest that at least one battle-brother may have hailed from non-Vulkan lineage.  The artifacts, a partial suit of armor and the oathseal of one of the ancient Crescent Maces, point to the unthinkable.  Based on the seals of the parchment and armor as well as fragments of mostly burnt paint, that warrior belonged to the II Legion, a Lost Legion, which by all accounts is thought impossible.  All records of those Legions, their sires and their fates is expunged, yet here a piece remains.  The legions were known to have existed at some point, but the fate of their warriors after they were "lost" was never disclosed.  Various information implied that their warriors were at least partially absorbed into other legions.  If that were true, could it be possible that one of these warriors had survived past the heresy?  Even so, these possibilities did not answer why such an Astartes was allowed to help form a new chapter or why his armor was apparently deliberately burnt.  Despite providing more unwanted questions than answers, this does present the chapter with a closely guarded new truth.  The Knight Wardens are a far older chapter than anyone, including themselves, believed, whose origins are not as set-in-stone as the records tell.  For now, the Knight Wardens wisely keep this information among their highest leadership and the Emperor himself.

 
Ah, right. There's the Lost Legion stuff you mentioned.
I see you've gone for the "secret heritage" route, too.  I'm all for subtlety and secrets in a Chapter, but it's a difficult road to walk.

 

And with the Lost Legions, it's much, much harder still. It is, in fact, a very, very difficult thing to do well, and it's pretty complicated to explain why, but I'll give it a go.  happy.png

It's like this:

Say you had it so instead there was a chance the KW were descended from, let's pick one at random, pre-heresy Iron Warriors, instead of the II Legion.

Keeping that as a secret would be very important, of course. But you could drop a few hints throughout the article here and there. It'd be fairly easy to do, as the Iron Warriors have a distinct personality and history.

A few brief comments sprinkled through the article later (for example, saying they have a talent for siege battles and preference for armoured assaults, a bitter intolerance for failure, and a tendency to look at warfare coldly and dispassionately) and you have some pseudo-subtle hints that your Chapter might secretly descend from the IV Legion. This can be expanded on with a note about the geneseed later, if the Chapter knows the truth (and you want the reader to know the truth!), or left without further comment so readers can draw their own conclusions.

It's much, much harder to do that for the Lost Legions, because we don't know what they were like.

You can't really drop actual hints to the II Legion's personality, because nobody would be able to identify it as a hint, because nobody knows what the II Legion's personality was like. sweat.gif

For that to work, you have to fully create and flesh out your own version of the II Legion, and even then it's got to be something that readers will read and go "yeah, there's room for this in my version of 40k, I'd be cool with these guys being the II Legion".

And then you can safely start dropping subtle hints or tying things to the Lost Legion in this Chapter. laugh.png

It is, all in all, a HUGE amount of work (I cannot overstate how huge an amount of work it is), and for very little reward, because there is no trait you can really add as a hint about the II Legion that wouldn't just be better (And more believable) as just a quirk of your Chapter.

TL;DR:

Shoehorning in the Lost Legions subtracts more from your Chapter than it adds 99.999% of the time, and I'd personally advise against it.

 

But In all fairness, I think you can easily make this an interesting, flavourful Chapter without the Lost Legion stuff. It's got a solid core - skilled smiths, relentless fighters, with a touch of arrogance that can get them into trouble sometimes. That's interesting already!

 

 

Dinner break I will be back if anyone sees this to finish here.  Standby Brothers!

 

*back*

 

Thank you for taking a read Ace!  What? Thou shall not dismay at Star Wars or I shall have to purge your heresy!  I do not insult our Emperor's name do I? laugh.png Dude I can barely keep up with this, you are completely excused lol

 

Awesome!  Reading it over again myself, its also better written, well more refined than the rest.  I can see where I derailed a little hahaha.

 

Which, as I have stated in this post now, I will change where the blue skin comes from to be an actual geneseed mutation.  It will work much better.  I think the reason I didnt go completely that route before, was that I lacked a good reason to or at least a good explanation, but now that is solved.  Prioritizing chapter over homeworld def makes sense!

 

Yea i have gonna a little overboard on the weapons, but I did because I dont have art or models to show ppl what they might actually look like, so I wanted to give a better idea what wargear they use.  That said, this section def needs to be cleaned up, at the moment its kind of just, "here is a bunch of information."  

 

You are def right on the need for better information on what kinds of formations and strategies the chapter prefers.  That is very useful information that I am sure I meant to get to at one time and forgot.  Time to remedy that!

 

O you dont have to worry about me a rules!  I have done some models but was a never a tabletop guy, didnt have the patience for it.  I have no problem if someone wants to use the finished chapter in tabletop, but that poor soul will have to figure out the rules for themselves hahaha!  The models got me into it, then the games, then the books, im a lore guy at heart.

 

"Here is that Lost Legion stuff" - "That Master Baggins, is why you are here" JK laugh.png

 

hahaha to be fair to myself, i dont think i have ever chosen anything easy, for, well anything lol fml

Thats a very good point that think maybe the others were trying to get at that just didnt click for me - that you cant leave hints for the Lost Legions, when basically there are no Lost Legions.  I dont want to go through all the effort of making that too, but perhaps by leaving the "Azure Chimeras" idea as simply the KW genesires, but not saying if they are a chapter or legion, and somewhat define them otherwise, i can have a probable connection that is partly left up to the readers with something of an outline of key points?  Maybe I develop the "ACs" as more than likely a chapter of what remained of one of the Lost Legions, taken in by the Salamanders or something, that later becomes the first KWs?  It would easier to define the link as more than likely a chapter and then let the readers take those details and imagine what that Lost Legion might have been like without have to make one in its entirety.  Basically set it up so that, as the KW learn more about their lineage, they develop quirks that this predecessor had or are derive from them.  In this way it would set more as a, this is why the KW are like this, rather than, this the KW and this the Lost Legion and this is why they are connected.  The latter would indeed be much more work and lengthier.

 

"flavorful" - you are very skilled describing things in a pleasant manner, I appreciate that!  Its good to know this has good bones, because those are broken, this would be doomed from the beginning!

 

 

You can't really drop actual hints to the II Legion's personality, because nobody would be able to identify it as a hint, because nobody knows what the II Legion's personality was like. sweat.gif

 

But something you could do is to base your hints to the II Legion's personality on one of the more developed fan Lost Legions, like brother Athrawes's Lightning Bearers

 

 

As much as I respect the work of those who did that, cuz they have done an amazing job.  I have never really fallen in love with any of the fanon Lost Legions.  This would be hard to do with something I am not totally on board with.

 

 

 

You can't really drop actual hints to the II Legion's personality, because nobody would be able to identify it as a hint, because nobody knows what the II Legion's personality was like. sweat.gif

But something you could do is to base your hints to the II Legion's personality on one of the more developed fan Lost Legions, like brother Athrawes's Lightning Bearers

 


That is absolutely one option, although I think it'd be best to ask permission first. happy.png

 

But for every person who thinks the Lightning Bearers are the greatest thing ever, there's another person with their own idea of what the II Legion was, and another who's never even heard of the Lightning Bearers.

 

It's still a divisive move, in short, no matter what how you approach it. sweat.gif

 

This is not to say it shouldn't be done, just that linking in Lost Legions is a lot of work, for very little gain.

Whatever traits you want from the II Legion can probably be wrangled from one of the Canon Eighteen Legions. And if it's something that can't be linked to an existing Legion, it's generally better just as a trait for your Chapter, instead of dragging the focus onto another organisation entirely.

 

I'm sure there's exceptions to what I've just said, but in the case of this Chapter, specifically, I genuinely think it's not only better without the Lost Legion, but that the Knight Wardens honestly don't need the II Legion, because the core of the Chapter itself is already pretty rich with personality. happy.png

 

 

Totally with you on the permission side.thumbsup.gif   Hell I recently found a fanon wiki where someone clearly stole many of my ideas for the KW, including the name!down.gif   You know, one of those where you read, and there are way too many similarities for comfort?  I was a bit annoyed with that.  Thats ok, when this is redone, thanks to this great community, it will be far better!

 

Yea like, i just said above, very interesting, but not what I would go for.

 

its a shame cuz GW left those as unknown so ppl could play with creativity, but seemed to forget that making a legion is a crap ton of work.

 

That last statement like, before, very kind! Thank you!

 

Well that sums up part 2!  My god, it took me 2 hours to reply!  I will hopeful have time to start the refinement/rework of the main post tomorrow.  I cant promise it will be done by end of week, cuz the week will be dominated by changes at work, upcoming grad school and of course the holiday, well covid holiday.  Speaking of, if I do not see anyone before then, everyone enjoy a nice holiday if you are celebrating one!biggrin.png


Edited by The Lord Marshal, 13 December 2020 - 01:57 AM.

Fear Our Wrath!

Current Work:

Knight Wardens http://www.bolterand...iss-spazmarinz/

Ashen Claws Successor http://www.bolterand...laws-successor/

Catalog of all my DIYs: http://www.bolterand...TheLordMarshal/

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My DeviantArt account: http://the-lord-mars...deviantart.com/

The Fleet Thread http://www.bolterand...-of-the-heresy/

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Im also on TheDarkCity.net, a Dark Eldar fansite  http://www.thedarkcity.net/u1638


#41
Brother Lunkhead

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Good to see Brother Ace in the discussion hereyes.gif He's created a lot of good stuff here in THE LIBER and made great and generous contributions in his critiques of the works of others here. But, I'm going to almost completely disagree with him here.

 

NOTE: I gather it's something to do with Star Wars.
Honestly, I'm not a fan of Star Wars, so please forgive me if I can't bring myself to research this further.
 

 

I can actually almost completely get on board with thistongue.png I did like Episodes 4 thru 6 though and some of the stuff done in the earlyish novels had some interesting stuff too. But, onto the subject at hand.

 

 

No heresy detected so far, although I'd join the chorus advising having your marines blue and your homeworld's people less so, if only because I can't think of any other examples of blue-skinned humans in the Imperium.

And also because it puts the focus on your Chapter looking unique, instead of their homeworld looking unique, which is a plus. 

They have to get their beautiful blue (BLUUUEwub.gif) skin from somewhere and I think simply putting it down to a mutation in the geneseed is a bit lazy. It makes more sense for it to be a adapted/evolved trait inherited through creating new marines from neophytes drawn from a population that already carries the trait; a trait developed over long centuries by absorbing unique minerals native to the planet by drinking the water or eating food, or both. Over time such adaptation can become a genetic trait.

 

Just because we don't currently have examples of blue-skinned people in the 40Kverse lore and lit, doesn't mean there aren't any. It is a BIG galaxy after all.

 

 

I'd like to know more about how the KW fight as a whole - what types of units would an onlooker typically see in a KW attack force? What sort of tactics?

(Don't worry about rules and the like when answering this. It's about what units fit the character of your Chapter, rather than which units you get results with on the tabletop) 

Absolutelyyes.gif

 

 

 
Ah, right. There's the Lost Legion stuff you mentioned.
I see you've gone for the "secret heritage" route, too.  I'm all for subtlety and secrets in a Chapter, but it's a difficult road to walk.

 

And with the Lost Legions, it's much, much harder still. It is, in fact, a very, very difficult thing to do well, and it's pretty complicated to explain why, but I'll give it a go.  happy.png

It's like this:

Say you had it so instead there was a chance the KW were descended from, let's pick one at random, pre-heresy Iron Warriors, instead of the II Legion.

Keeping that as a secret would be very important, of course. But you could drop a few hints throughout the article here and there. It'd be fairly easy to do, as the Iron Warriors have a distinct personality and history.

A few brief comments sprinkled through the article later (for example, saying they have a talent for siege battles and preference for armoured assaults, a bitter intolerance for failure, and a tendency to look at warfare coldly and dispassionately) and you have some pseudo-subtle hints that your Chapter might secretly descend from the IV Legion. This can be expanded on with a note about the geneseed later, if the Chapter knows the truth (and you want the reader to know the truth!), or left without further comment so readers can draw their own conclusions.

It's much, much harder to do that for the Lost Legions, because we don't know what they were like.

You can't really drop actual hints to the II Legion's personality, because nobody would be able to identify it as a hint, because nobody knows what the II Legion's personality was like. sweat.gif

For that to work, you have to fully create and flesh out your own version of the II Legion, and even then it's got to be something that readers will read and go "yeah, there's room for this in my version of 40k, I'd be cool with these guys being the II Legion".

And then you can safely start dropping subtle hints or tying things to the Lost Legion in this Chapter. laugh.png

It is, all in all, a HUGE amount of work (I cannot overstate how huge an amount of work it is), and for very little reward, because there is no trait you can really add as a hint about the II Legion that wouldn't just be better (And more believable) as just a quirk of your Chapter.

TL;DR:

Shoehorning in the Lost Legions subtracts more from your Chapter than it adds 99.999% of the time, and I'd personally advise against it.

 

But In all fairness, I think you can easily make this an interesting, flavourful Chapter without the Lost Legion stuff. It's got a solid core - skilled smiths, relentless fighters, with a touch of arrogance that can get them into trouble sometimes. That's interesting already!

 

Ah yes, the Lost Legion stuff. A difficult road to walk indeed. And so is creating and interesting and credible Space Marine chapter. It's the difficult tasks that are the most rewarding to complete.

 

True, we don't know what the II Legion looks like, and we do know what the other Legions look like. So, stay away from the major traits of the other established Legions on the whole. You only have to establish that your chapter doesn't seem to fit the mold of the established primogenitor chapters. You don't even have to establish a link specifically to the II Legion. You just have to establish a credible mystery that points to an Otherwhistling.gif The idea that you came up with, the gene lock that opens to the "Azure Chimeras" is a good start. Add to it, but not too much. Even if you don't directly reference the II Legion, it would behoove you to develop your idea of what the II Legion looks like in order to maintain continuity in your story should you wish this mystery to gradually unfold. This could (and probably should) involve creating a separate detailed story for the II Legion. This will not be easy, but others have done it and done it well. I think you can do it too.

 

The idea that the II Legion lore does not exist in canon should not deter you at all. I believe the Lost Legions were left blank not only as a tantalizing mystery, but as a canvas for the fans to paint on as they see fit. Creating your on lore for the II Legion can fit well within the cracks of official canon. None of the the Space Marine chapters we create here are in canon, but they do fit within the cracks. There's plenty of room for you to speculate and I encourage you to do so.

 

If you chose this route, no doubt it will be divisive. So what. Blue skinned Space Marines are going to be divisive. Not everyone  likes Star Wars (yes, SHOCKING I know) and the fact that some of your lore is inspired by that universe is going to be divisive. You can't please everyone, only yourself. If you put the necessary work in, you'll have something that will be well liked by most and at least respected by most of your critics The results of your efforts will be their own reward and will add to your chapter and not subtract from it.


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#42
Bjorn Firewalker

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Blue skin is so far beyond human norm, it will instantly distinguish those with it as a mutant or a xeno- NOT a good idea in the Imperium. Better to say the Marines use woad, i.e., the blue warpaint the Scots wore in Braveheart.
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Wolf Scout- Catachan barking toad eggs+ Thousand Sons Marine= Fun! (Wolves of Catachan)

Warhammer 40,000+ Star Wars- Rian Johnson- Reylo= AWESOME! (Knights of Renaissance)

Reasons to use the Steel Crusaders ('Codex: Space Marines' supplement) or the Iron-hearted Angels ('Codex: Blood Angels' supplement): Because you think giving Sternguard Veterans a heavy bolter wtih special issue HEAVY BOLTER ammunition is ALMOST as much fun as shoehorning an Earthshaker cannon into a Land Raider.

#43
Gamiel

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Yea as I stated further up here, I see how that could be an issue now and will rework it somewhere else.  Speaking of the CL, what the hell is the Inquisition's problem them?  They really do want to destroy them.

We actually don't know if it is the Inquisition as an organisation or just one small group (or even just one Inquisitor) that are just incredibly petty that they are interested in wasting valuable imperial recourses by assassinating and sabotaging the Lions just because the Lions did the terrible thing of talking back to a Inquisitor, and declaring that they would report his behaviour to the Lords of Terra. And the thing is this is not some kind of official sanctioned thing, there is no official declaration of the CL being reprimanded, having gone to far, done wrong or anything like that.

 

I actually have a story idea about an Inquisitor trying to find out which one/s of her colleagues is doing this so they can be stopped this, since it really is hurting the Space Marines willingness to work with the Inquisition, and is wasting Imperial recourses.

 

 

Certainly an interesting alternative, but I think the chapter's brutality and blue skin mutation will cause enough friction with the Inquisition.  I will just rework it elsewhere and keep the Deathwatch to my ministory on chapter to chapter relations and the power mace thing.

What we have seen of the Inquisition do it seems that most of them not have any problem with brutality, as long it is pointed at the enemy – some collateral damage is expected.

 

 

 

 

The Pariah analog idea sounds very interesting.  But, with those drawn from the geneline of the Emperor through the Primarchs, is that even possible?  I was thinking of making the librarians have the natural aptitude for the 2 abilities that the rare force-sensitive Chiss did in Star Wars Legends (bloody Disneyverymad.gif ).  Those are an aptitude for telekinesis and precognition.

I was more thinking that they had Pariahs as serfs/slaves/such, not that any of the Marines were Pariahs.


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#44
Bjorn Firewalker

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We actually don't know if it is the Inquisition as an organisation or just one small group (or even just one Inquisitor) that are just incredibly petty that they are interested in wasting valuable imperial recourses by assassinating and sabotaging the Lions just because the Lions did the terrible thing of talking back to a Inquisitor, and declaring that they would report his behaviour to the Lords of Terra. And the thing is this is not some kind of official sanctioned thing, there is no official declaration of the CL being reprimanded, having gone to far, done wrong or anything like that.

I blame this on writers failing to think through the consequences of an action. Sadly, it's a trait shared with many real-world leaders in business, military, and government.

I actually have a story idea about an Inquisitor trying to find out which one/s of her colleagues is doing this so they can be stopped this, since it really is hurting the Space Marines willingness to work with the Inquisition, and is wasting Imperial recourses.

Great idea! It will likely have to end with the protagonist delivering the Rogue Inquisitors responsible before the Imperial Fists Chapter Master, for execution before the eyes of him and other Imperial Fists successors' Chapter Masters, to placate Dorn's sons. The fraternity is so tightly knit, the attempted destruction of the Celestial Lions would've led to all Imperial Fists successors refusing to work with the Inquisition, devastating the latter's ability to respond to multiple threats.

Edited by Bjorn Firewalker, 13 December 2020 - 05:13 PM.

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Wolf Scout- Catachan barking toad eggs+ Thousand Sons Marine= Fun! (Wolves of Catachan)

Warhammer 40,000+ Star Wars- Rian Johnson- Reylo= AWESOME! (Knights of Renaissance)

Reasons to use the Steel Crusaders ('Codex: Space Marines' supplement) or the Iron-hearted Angels ('Codex: Blood Angels' supplement): Because you think giving Sternguard Veterans a heavy bolter wtih special issue HEAVY BOLTER ammunition is ALMOST as much fun as shoehorning an Earthshaker cannon into a Land Raider.

#45
Brother Lunkhead

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Blue skin is so far beyond human norm, it will instantly distinguish those with it as a mutant or a xeno- NOT a good idea in the Imperium. Better to say the Marines use woad, i.e., the blue warpaint the Scots wore in Braveheart.

Blue skin is indeed not the human norm, but it does exist, just as violet eyes are not the norm on Earth Terra (with the exception of albinism), but they are the norm on Cadia (at least they werecry.gif). The Imperium tolerates abhumans, mutants and xenos in their midsts, so long as they are a boon to mankind. I think a small backwater world populated by blue skinned humans that sire giant azure Angels of Death that hold the line and bring the Emperor's light to a dark galaxy will be similarly tolerated. If the Empire of Man can tolerate it, the lore that we are creating here in THE LIBER can also tolerate it.

 

This is all of coarse inconsistent and more than a bit hypocritical in the face of the stated beliefs of the Imperium. But every empire and civilization in human history has been built on a firm foundation of inconsistency and hypocrisy. That is another human norm.

 

 

The Pariah analog idea sounds very interesting.  But, with those drawn from the geneline of the Emperor through the Primarchs, is that even possible?  I was thinking of making the librarians have the natural aptitude for the 2 abilities that the rare force-sensitive Chiss did in Star Wars Legends (bloody Disneyverymad.gif ).  Those are an aptitude for telekinesis and precognition.

I was more thinking that they had Pariahs as serfs/slaves/such, not that any of the Marines were Pariahs.

 

HEYeek.gif ...... You can't create a Pariah Space Marine Chapter..... I'm doing thatmsn-wink.gif biggrin.png


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#46
Ace Debonair

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Good to see Brother Ace in the discussion here:yes: He's created a lot of good stuff here in THE LIBER and made great and generous contributions in his critiques of the works of others here. But, I'm going to almost completely disagree with him here.


Don't go overstating me, brother. I'm a grumbly old wordsmith, nothing more. sweat.gif
I also hope you can forgive me for disagreeing with some of the points and counter-points you've made, as well. laugh.png
 

They have to get their beautiful blue (BLUUUE:wub:) skin from somewhere and I think simply putting it down to a mutation in the geneseed is a bit lazy.


Speaking of which; Vulkan's geneseed is known to react unusually to radiation, and I think it's not so much lazy as by far the easiest and most sensible way to justify the blue skin.

Plus, as I said earlier, having the Chapter be blue-skinned instead of the homeworld being blue-skinned put the focus right on your boys, instead of the world they occupy. happy.png
 

Just because we don't currently have examples of blue-skinned people in the 40Kverse lore and lit, doesn't mean there aren't any. It is a BIG galaxy after all.


Forgive my saying so, brother, but that justification holds very little weight.

There's a lot of stuff that 40k doesn't already have - it doesn't mean that it necessarily should have it, if it jars with the feeling of the setting.

The Imperium, being what it is, probably wouldn't tolerate blue people too easily - especially given how "abhor the mutant" is kind of a whole thing in 40k.

I'm not saying that having a blue-skinned world is impossible, of course, especially if it's absolutely essential for the Chapter, but it's a much easier sell (with regards to grounding it in the lore) to say your guys are Blue-skinned Salamanders than to say you have a world of abnormally blue dudes that the Imperium is just cool with.
 

Ah yes, the Lost Legion stuff. A difficult road to walk indeed. And so is creating and interesting and credible Space Marine chapter. It's the difficult tasks that are the most rewarding to complete.
 
True, we don't know what the II Legion looks like, and we do know what the other Legions look like. So, stay away from the major traits of the other established Legions on the whole. You only have to establish that your chapter doesn't seem to fit the mold of the established primogenitor chapters. You don't even have to establish a link specifically to the II Legion. You just have to establish a credible mystery that points to an Other

 

But if you aren't hinting at anything (because of course the reader doesn't know what the writer's version of the II Legion was like), surely that's just mystery for mystery's sake? unsure.png

 

If you chose this route, no doubt it will be divisive. So what.

 

Divisiveness without purpose is entirely that - without purpose.

 

What sort of traits could a successor from a Lost Legion inherit that wouldn't be easier to implement as traits from an existing one? There's bound to be a few really kickass ones, certainly, but what part of a Chiss-inspired Chapter requires a Lost Legion created whole-cloth for their existence to work? (That's an honest enquiry, I still haven't researched the xenos in question )

Coming up with a believable and cool Lost Legion is a crazy amount of work, especially if the point of that Legion is that it's unlike any of the other existing Legions, in enough ways that a successor with many of the same quirks would be recognizable as such even if they officially pretend to be Salamanders. wacko.png

 

It's at the very least doubling your workload, and possibly even more if you make the Primarch a notable figure in and of himself.

I'm not saying "don't make a Lost Legion". If that's what you want to do, then definitely go for it. After all, why not? There's plenty of cool Lost Legion projects out there, and more are surely always welcome.

 

I am, however, saying "you don't have to make a Lost Legion just for the sake of this Chapter's backstory, 'cause it's a lot of extra work, and they're cool enough as Salamanders". I'll admit that's not as snappy of a quote, though. sweat.gif
 

If you put the necessary work in, you'll have something that will be well liked by most and at least respected by most of your critics The results of your efforts will be their own reward and will add to your chapter and not subtract from it.

 

On this, however, Brother Lunkhead and I are in emphatic, dare I even say absolute, agreement. happy.png
Ultimately it's your Chapter, Lord Marshal, and I wholeheartedly encourage you to evolve it in whichever manner makes you happiest with the result - that's by far the most important metric of a DIY's success! thumbsup.gif


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#47
Brother Lunkhead

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Good to see Brother Ace in the discussion here:yes: He's created a lot of good stuff here in THE LIBER and made great and generous contributions in his critiques of the works of others here. But, I'm going to almost completely disagree with him here.


Don't go overstating me, brother. I'm a grumbly old wordsmith, nothing more. sweat.gif
I also hope you can forgive me for disagreeing with some of the points and counter-points you've made, as well. laugh.png

You are a grumpy old wordsmith, and that's just one reason we love having you around hereyes.gif

 

Brother, if we agreed on everything this wouldn't be near as funmsn-wink.gif

 

 

They have to get their beautiful blue (BLUUUE:wub:) skin from somewhere and I think simply putting it down to a mutation in the geneseed is a bit lazy.


Speaking of which; Vulkan's geneseed is known to react unusually to radiation, and I think it's not so much lazy as by far the easiest and most sensible way to justify the blue skin.

See my first post in this thread. I've covered that.

 

 

Plus, as I said earlier, having the Chapter be blue-skinned instead of the homeworld being blue-skinned put the focus right on your boys, instead of the world they occupy. happy.png

There are plenty of chapter worlds in cannon and here with much more going for it than a population of blue skinned humans. Once again, check my original post. It simply gives a more plausible explanation for blue skinned marines. Unless a writer really tries, Space Marine homeworlds and their population seldom if ever overshadows the chapter itself. It's just not a thing unless you make it a thing.

 

 

Just because we don't currently have examples of blue-skinned people in the 40Kverse lore and lit, doesn't mean there aren't any. It is a BIG galaxy after all.


Forgive my saying so, brother, but that justification holds very little weight.

There's a lot of stuff that 40k doesn't already have - it doesn't mean that it necessarily should have it, if it jars with the feeling of the setting.

The Imperium, being what it is, probably wouldn't tolerate blue people too easily - especially given how "abhor the mutant" is kind of a whole thing in 40k.

I'm not saying that having a blue-skinned world is impossible, of course, especially if it's absolutely essential for the Chapter, but it's a much easier sell (with regards to grounding it in the lore) to say your guys are Blue-skinned Salamanders than to say you have a world of abnormally blue dudes that the Imperium is just cool with.

You are forgiventeehee.gif But being a big galaxy leaves a lot of room to create stuff that doesn't already exist in the canon lore. "Abhor the mutant" yes, but tolerate those that we can make use of, like.... big dumb ogres with massive guns that fight along with the IG and hairy little sharp shooters, not to mention little hairy orange creatures that can make weapons almost out of nothing. Given these and other exceptions, yeah, they can get along with blue people.

 

 

But if you aren't hinting at anything (because of course the reader doesn't know what the writer's version of the II Legion was like), surely that's just mystery for mystery's sake? unsure.png

 

If you chose this route, no doubt it will be divisive. So what.

 

Divisiveness without purpose is entirely that - without purpose.

 

What sort of traits could a successor from a Lost Legion inherit that wouldn't be easier to implement as traits from an existing one? There's bound to be a few really kickass ones, certainly, but what part of a Chiss-inspired Chapter requires a Lost Legion created whole-cloth for their existence to work? (That's an honest enquiry, I still haven't researched the xenos in question )

Coming up with a believable and cool Lost Legion is a crazy amount of work, especially if the point of that Legion is that it's unlike any of the other existing Legions, in enough ways that a successor with many of the same quirks would be recognizable as such even if they officially pretend to be Salamanders. wacko.png

 

It's at the very least doubling your workload, and possibly even more if you make the Primarch a notable figure in and of himself.

I'm not saying "don't make a Lost Legion". If that's what you want to do, then definitely go for it. After all, why not? There's plenty of cool Lost Legion projects out there, and more are surely always welcome.

 

I am, however, saying "you don't have to make a Lost Legion just for the sake of this Chapter's backstory, 'cause it's a lot of extra work, and they're cool enough as Salamanders". I'll admit that's not as snappy of a quote, though. sweat.gif

It's not a mystery for mystery's sake. When you hint at an unknown that is not known (in lore) you wet the appetite of your audience for more and it leaves room for more reveals and thus future stories. One of the joys of a good sci fi/ fantasy story is being immersed into a world, a situation or a mystery for which I have no reference point. It's disorienting in a way that makes me curious to know more. If written well, a II Legion connection can achieve that. This will allows The Lord Marshall to stretch his creativity into unknown territory and not simply revisit territory that has been explored many times before he got there. Of course, if one doesn't want to go there, then don't. But I suspect that since The Lord Marshal brought it up in the first place, he does want to got there, so I encourage him to do so. I suspect he already understands the challenge that awaits him.

 

 

On this, however, Brother Lunkhead and I are in emphatic, dare I even say absolute, agreement. happy.png
Ultimately it's your Chapter, Lord Marshal, and I wholeheartedly encourage you to evolve it in whichever manner makes you happiest with the result - that's by far the most important metric of a DIY's success! thumbsup.gif

Absolute agreement, huh?......Don't let that get outbiggrin.png


Edited by Brother Lunkhead, 14 December 2020 - 06:56 AM.

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#48
The Lord Marshal

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Hello all,

 

Thank you for all the replies since I was last commenting.  I have read them all! I know I said I would get to this last weekend, but you know how when you say something and it never happens.  Jinxed myself!  Well anyway I am starting now and will work over it through prob the next week realistically.  I will put the old version below for reference and do another post here when the new version is complete, so you guys can take a look!  See everyone in a bit and have a great holiday!

 

Prior Version:

 

+++++DISCLAIMER+++++

To the member of this community who blatantly created a cheap knock off in 2016 on warhammer40kfanon.com and had the nerve to have a respected Youtuber make a video on it and claim credit for ideas which were not your own - This will not be tolerated in the future.  You are a disgrace to this good community.  If I see any further material from this thread in that article, I will personally delete that page.

+++++CONSIDER YOURSELF WARNED.+++++

+++END DISCLAIMER+++

 

 

Original Version from 2013

Updated version - Chiss Space Marines. ....and wait for heresy to be shouted!....plz no unsure.png

 

What do you think? rolleyesclean.gif  Major updates are forthcoming, please see 2nd page discussion.

 

 

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++INCOMING CHISS!!!!!!!++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

*still WIP*

 

Knight Wardens

 

Founding: 5th (Officially) - Likely much earlier (See recent events)

Primarch: Vulkan/Unknown

Legion: Salamanders/Unkown

Homeworld: Tarnost

Chapter Master: Lord Commander Erasmus Beltane

Chief Librarian: Arch-Magister Ingo Quest

 

Chapter Badge:  Two crossed Power Maces superimposed by a Skull, above a white crescent moon.

 

"Your presumptions of our brotherhood can wait, Inquisitor, traitors await the Emperor's judgment." - Lord Commander Nuruodo Corvinus, High Warden of Tarnost, 1st Chapter Master of the Knight Wardens

 

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Chapter Culture

 

Within the larger galaxy, the local conflicts of the blue skinned population of Tarnost goes mostly unnoticed.  The planet exists in a constant state of late medieval feudal tension and battle.  Long ago, the local humans bodies developed enhanced durability and light blue skin as a biological protection against the high gravity and intense, astrologically induced, radiation of their home planet.  There biological toughness and fierce warrior culture make them surprisingly good recruits as potential Astartes.  Which brought the first Angels of Death to Tarnost, the future Knight Wardens.  The first battle-brothers shocked the locals, who still see them as gods of war,  ever watchful over their chosen world.  The warriors of Tarnost constantly battle not only for their noble houses, but for the notice of the Angels of Death and Emperor of Mankind, for the best of their youth are chosen to join the watchful.  These neophytes, should they survive the trials and implantation process, emerge with an appearance reminiscent of their genesire and their homeworld, Astartes with dark blue skin and red eyes.  The culture of the chapter is a combination of ways of Vulkan and their feudal home.  The battle-brothers favor fierce close combat with weapons inspired by medieval times.  But these technologically advanced knights are also smiths, following the teachings of Vulkan.  Knight Wardens typically work with their brothers to maintain, refine and customize their armor and weapons of war.  They are sons of the fire in their own way.  But they are also stubborn, as their homeworld's cultural influence of high personal expectations, coupled with the expectations of an Astartes, has made them extremely intolerant of failure.  This over-expectation has caused conflicts with other Imperial forces and at times, unwanted questions.

 

Combat Doctrine

 

As each Battle Brother hails from the common warrior culture of their homeworld of Tarnost, (with very few exceptions), the chapter has developed a renown expertise in brutal close combat warfare.  Over the course of their service to The Imperium, the Knight Wardens have developed a particularly vicious reputation in melee combat reminiscent of such savage chapters as The Executioners and Caracharodons. This dark reputation combined with their lack of tolerance for failure has cause many problems in the past, including clashes with other servants of The Imperium.

 

Knight Wardens favor power maces, power axes and lightning claws, although they do make use of conventional close combat weapons such as power swords and chain axes (they tend not to favor chainswords).  But of all weapons, there is one every battle brother favors above all others, a unique pattern of power mace found only within their chapter - the Crescent-pattern Power Mace.  The Crescent-pattern has the head of the mace formed from 6 razor-sharp crescents, like those found on their chapter badge (hence the name). This creates a weapon that combines the crushing blunt force of a power weapon wielded by a super-human with traumatic blades that tare open a wound when the weapon is retrieved from an enemy, both crushing bone and causing massive internal damage.  In the hands of a well trained warrior like an Astartes, a single well aimed blow from one of these weapons will mortally wound almost any enemy.  (OC - *inserts gif* "power maces? no, much more better!"*)

 

*Will include story iv thought up about 2 maces in particular that develops into a chapter tradition (inspired by my reading of Deathwatch: Ignition currently)*

 

Chapter Geneseed

 

The sons of Vulkan are well know among the Astartes for their unique "ember-like" bioluminescence to their eyes and a tendency for skin pigmentation to permanently darken in response to prolonged exposure to high levels of potentially harmful radiation as part of their biological defence mechanism, often adopting an unnatural granite-like or obsidian quality with sufficient exposure. The Knight Wardens show the measurable superiority to the already superhuman Space Marine norms in relation to extreme temperate tolerance, radiological resistance and cellular repair common to the Vulkan geneseed.  However, the Knight Wardens have developed an even more unusual skin quality than their gene-sires, due to the unique mutations of the humans from their homeworld; Vulkan's geneseed significantly darkens their natural light blueish skin tone to a dark blue color and turns their eyes red.  This combination of effects, coupled with their Astartes might, often stuns onlookers at first contact, even among other Astartes.  To mere mortals, their shocking appearance, dark armor and vicious efficiency in close quarters battles often creates an sensation of pure fear far more potent than an encounter with a more human looking Astartes.  The effect of their appearance and their style of warfare has raised unwelcome questions of purity and loyalty on more multiple occasions.

 

Fortress Monastery

 

The Chapter's Fortress Monastery was constructed with assistance and advice of the Iron Knights Chapter, a Imperial Fists successor and master of fortifications, for assistance rendered in M33.

 

*thinking of a 40k Hand of Thrawn analog*

 

Recent Events

 

Recently, battle-brothers serving with the Deathwatch have discovered ancient writings from their early history and artifacts long thought permanently lost.  But while these findings often present chapters with reason for celebration, these instead offer mysterious and potentially grave realizations.  As stated previously, the very first battle-brothers of the chapter lacked the now characteristic blue skin, as they did not hail from Tarnost, but where did they come from?  The ancient tale told to neophytes for thousands of years claim they were brothers of the Salamanders and the Storm Giants, but is that the whole truth?  The writings found while in service to the Deathwatch suggest that at least one battle-brother may have hailed from non-Vulkan lineage.  The artifacts, a partial suit of armor and the oathseal of one of the ancient Crescent Maces, point to the unthinkable.  Based on the seals of the parchment and armor as well as fragments of mostly burnt paint, that warrior belonged to the II Legion, a Lost Legion, which by all accounts is thought impossible.  All records of those Legions, their sires and their fates is expunged, yet here a piece remains.  The legions were known to have existed at some point, but the fate of their warriors after they were "lost" was never disclosed.  Various information implied that their warriors were at least partially absorbed into other legions.  If that were true, could it be possible that one of these warriors had survived past the heresy?  Even so, these possibilities did not answer why such an Astartes was allowed to help form a new chapter or why his armor was apparently deliberately burnt.  Despite providing more unwanted questions than answers, this does present the chapter with a closely guarded new truth.  The Knight Wardens are a far older chapter than anyone, including themselves, believed, whose origins are not as set-in-stone as the records tell.  For now, the Knight Wardens wisely keep this information among their highest leadership and the Emperor himself.

 

*OC - see what I did there? Set-in-stone, feudal culture? teehee.gif 

 

Marine Images

 

Color Scheme - Chaos Black, Midnight Blue, Charadon Granite, Mechrite Red, Mithril Silver

 

KW Paint Scheme
Album: Knight Wardens
66 images
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Edited by The Lord Marshal, 23 December 2020 - 02:33 PM.

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#49
Grey Hunter Ydalir

Grey Hunter Ydalir

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You are forgiventeehee.gif But being a big galaxy leaves a lot of room to create stuff that doesn't already exist in the canon lore. "Abhor the mutant" yes, but tolerate those that we can make use of, like.... big dumb ogres with massive guns that fight along with the IG and hairy little sharp shooters, not to mention little hairy orange creatures that can make weapons almost out of nothing. Given these and other exceptions, yeah, they can get along with blue people.

 

 

I'm unsurprisingly with Ace on this one, I'll just quote "just because you can, does not mean that you should."

 

While you can make the argument that the Imperium 'could' make use of them, what benefit does blue skin bring, besides a very obvious mutation to a very religiously charged, racially inflexible culture like that is present in the Imperium? They'd do no thing a regular human couldn't, and if they were too far beyond the template it might be problematic for integration with Geneseed. Even for the Salamanders who's radiation explanation is being thrown around, it's the geneseed that reacts with the radiation, not the human donor.

 

Are they strong like Ogryns? No. Are they quick and dextrous like the Ratlings? Also no. It's not that it's not possible, it's more that hanging your hat on this and making it a front and center part of your IA is incredibly thin ice to walk on, as it supports nothing.

To me this resembles the over-use of PC leanings that are absolute rubbish born out of social-constructionists. This has nothing to do with anything other than what fits the setting and what works as a true part of the defining character of a chapter. Pale skin doesn't make the Raven Guard or Charcharadons who they are, it's a tiny bit of visual diversity that sets them apart from their cousins, taking it away would not detract anything from the chapter's character, so how much is it truly worth?

 

Other than as a narrative framing device for their descriptions in stories, nothing at all.

 

You could say they had a blue 'tint' or 'hue' to their otherwise generic human skin tones which may or may not be exaggerated by the geneseed when it's implanted, but to say your recruits all look like the Blue Man Group I think in 40k is going too far, personally.

 

Just how many calls for their eradication would they get just because they resemble the Tau?

 

Sorry Lord Marshal, to derail your thread again, but I had to comment on this specifically.

 

 

As an aside, I really like the colour scheme you've gone with. :tu:


Edited by Grey Hunter Ydalir, 19 December 2020 - 01:29 AM.

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