Psi-Shock

[defl0]

How are you guys playing the psi-shock rule? I've seen it played where every hit causes a perils, but I don't think that is actually how  the rules is intended to be play, nor do I think it's RAW. 

 

RAW, it looks like the timing of the power is when damage is assessed. So after hits are tallied and armor saves are made. 

 

 

 

Psi-shock: If a unit containing at least one Psyker (i.e., a model with the Psyker, Brotherhood of Psyker/

Sorcerers or Psychic Pilot special rule) is hit by a weapon with the Psi-shock special rule, one randomly

determined Psyker model in that unit suffers Perils of the Warp in addition to any other damage.

 

 

 

 

The rule starts with "If" not "When".

 

So it is set up as an if/then statement.

 

If the unit is hit... then 1 psyker takes a perils. 

 

So if a unit hits you with 10 psi weapons from the same unit, you still only take one Peril's of the Warp check. 

 

By the same logic, shooting with 2 units with a psi-shock weapon can give you 2 Peril's of the Warp checks. 

 

Thoughts?

[Quixus]

No, if a unit has multiple weapons with that rule the one unit can force more than one peril roll (one for each weapon that hits). In that case you should either roll each weapon separately or use colour coded dice.

 

That is similarly unwieldy as a whole unit with master-crafted weapons.

[NoLifeKing]

No, if a unit has multiple weapons with that rule the one unit can force more than one peril roll (one for each weapon that hits). In that case you should either roll each weapon separately or use colour coded dice.

 

That is similarly unwieldy as a whole unit with master-crafted weapons.

I can't find myself agreeing with this, if you mean that multiple models are shooting a weapon with the same profile at the same time, because thats not how it works. 

 

Lets imagine that you have a unit that has 4 weapons with the same profile and have the psi-shock rule, and then 1 other weapon with different profile with the rule as well, and you fire the 4 weapons first. When they hit, they cause the perils, then if you would shoot the last 1 wep and if it hits, you cause a second perils. Its not supposed to be causing perils based on the number of hits, but instead when a shooting attack with the weapon profile bearing the rule hits the psykers at all. 

 

For the same reason a weapon with the Blind USR doesn't trigger initiative tests for every hit scored by the weapon, but instead triggers a single test if the weapon hits the unit at all, no matter if there was 1 or 200 hits scored.

[Unknown Legionnaire]

Blind

 

Any unit hit by one or more models or weapons with this special rule must take an

Initiative test at the end of the current phase. If the test is passed, ... etc.

 

Psi-shock

 

If a unit containing at least one Psyker (i.e., a model with the Psyker, Brotherhood of Psyker/

Sorcerers or Psychic Pilot special rule) is hit by a weapon with the Psi-shock special rule, one randomly

determined Psyker model in that unit suffers Perils of the Warp in addition to any other damage.

 

 

The BLIND USR specifically states that it does not matter how many hits with a weapon with said USR are suffered, one OR more.

 

PSI-SHOCK just refers to 'a weapon'. 

 

Sloppy writing ? Maybe.

 

But personally I'd say the unit suffers one Perils per hit. One Perils for one hit with 'a weapon'.

 

It certainly is a grey area though, and one should discuss it with one's gaming group at best.

 

Just my two cents.

[AceofAllTradez]

 

Blind

 

Any unit hit by one or more models or weapons with this special rule must take an

Initiative test at the end of the current phase. If the test is passed, ... etc.

 

Psi-shock

 

If a unit containing at least one Psyker (i.e., a model with the Psyker, Brotherhood of Psyker/

Sorcerers or Psychic Pilot special rule) is hit by a weapon with the Psi-shock special rule, one randomly

determined Psyker model in that unit suffers Perils of the Warp in addition to any other damage.

 

 

The BLIND USR specifically states that it does not matter how many hits with a weapon with said USR are suffered, one OR more.

 

PSI-SHOCK just refers to 'a weapon'. 

 

Sloppy writing ? Maybe.

 

But personally I'd say the unit suffers one Perils per hit. One Perils for one hit with 'a weapon'.

 

It certainly is a grey area though, and one should discuss it with one's gaming group at best.

 

Just my two cents.

 

I don't think its sloppy writing at all. The way you outlined it was perfect it would seem they  specifically worded it to not say if the "unit is hit by one or more weapons...".

[NoLifeKing]

In my defense, I do have to say that the rule doesn't say that its a perils for every hit, either.  I would stand behind to logic you're having, but there are certain factors that bother me enough not to do so.

Firstly, as i said, the rule does not state that the perils occurs for every hit caused by the weapon. 

Secondly, when you fire a weapon the effects of an shooting attack made with a weapon of certain profile, are always resolved at the same time no matter if there was 1 shot fired or 200.

Third point: the rule reffers to "ONE psyker" ending up suffering from the perils, not "a psyker"

Fourth: the rule has a simple condition for it to be triggered and thats when "a unit is hit", by a weapon bearing this rule, and that condition can be met in both scenarios. The unit is hit once by the weapon, is the condition met? yes. The unit is hit a hundred times with the weapon, is the condition met? yes.

And for my fith point: I understand that the weapon is supposed to be anti psyker, but am i the only one that feels like making the poor bastards suffer perils on ->EVERY<-          ->HIT<-... Being bit too hard on them? For every wound i would consider it reasonable, but for every hit? The very brutality of an idea like that makes me very sceptic of the idea of that being its intended function.

[Quixus]

Somehow I previously confused that rule with the old psi-bolts, so multiple models could fire multiple shots with that rule.

 

There is no way for one unit to generate more than one hit with a psyk out grenade (or am I missing another weapon that has the psi-shock rule?), because you are only allowed to throw one such grenade (which is assault 1). So there can only be one perils roll per unit throwing such a grenade. Multiple units attacking the same enemy unit with psyk out grenades could generate one perils roll per grenade (or attacking unit).

[Harrowmaster]

Sisters of silence in 30k can carry grenade launchers using psyk out ammo, with up to 5 in the squad

[Reclusiarch Darius]

 

Psi-shock: If a unit containing at least one Psyker (i.e., a model with the Psyker, Brotherhood of Psyker/

Sorcerers or Psychic Pilot special rule) is hit by a weapon with the Psi-shock special rule, one randomly

determined Psyker model in that unit suffers Perils of the Warp in addition to any other damage.

 

 

Would seem pretty clear to me. If you hit a unit containing a psyker with a Psi-shock weapon, they suffer Perils on one random psyker. 

 

Hits are done before you roll to wound or take saves. There is nothing in the rule stating that this can only occur once. So if you get hit with five psi-shock grenades or missiles (Sisters of Silence can do this), you take five Perils of the Warp tests, each being randomly assigned to a psyker in the target unit. 

 

Blind does have a stipulation that it doesn't matter if you hit the target with one or a million Blind hits, they only take one test (however the entire unit is affected by the outcome). 

Psi-shock: If a unit containing at least one Psyker (i.e., a model with the Psyker, Brotherhood of Psyker/

Sorcerers or Psychic Pilot special rule) is hit by a weapon with the Psi-shock special rule, one randomly

determined Psyker model in that unit suffers Perils of the Warp in addition to any other damage.

[Quixus]

Sisters of silence in 30k can carry grenade launchers using psyk out ammo, with up to 5 in the squad

So that would mean up to 5 rolls. However as worded no one model can force more than one roll. This is only relevant if the launcher can throw more than one grenade per shooting phase, I don't know as I don't have Inferno. In that case you would have to roll each model separately (just like the melee weapons for the Sanguinary Guard in 40K).

[SkimaskMohawk]

Harrowmaster, on 22 Apr 2017 - 05:14 AM, said:

Sisters of silence in 30k can carry grenade launchers using psyk out ammo, with up to 5 in the squad

So that would mean up to 5 rolls. However as worded no one model can force more than one roll. This is only relevant if the launcher can throw more than one grenade per shooting phase, I don't know as I don't have Inferno. In that case you would have to roll each model separately (just like the melee weapons for the Sanguinary Guard in 40K).

Excruciatus Cadre can have 5 Stake-crossbows, Seekers can have 10 grenade launchers and the Aquisitor has 2 missile launchers that can shoot psych-out missiles. The aquisitor doesn't matter so much since as a vehicle its weapons all count as being separate units any ways.

Basically the best way to take SoS is using them as an ally with an excruciatus, aquisitor, and seeker squad and force a ton of perils tests on psykers. Super niche, but very effective.

[NoLifeKing]

 

 

Psi-shock: If a unit containing at least one Psyker (i.e., a model with the Psyker, Brotherhood of Psyker/

Sorcerers or Psychic Pilot special rule) is hit by a weapon with the Psi-shock special rule, one randomly

determined Psyker model in that unit suffers Perils of the Warp in addition to any other damage.

 

 

Would seem pretty clear to me. If you hit a unit containing a psyker with a Psi-shock weapon, they suffer Perils on one random psyker. 

 

Hits are done before you roll to wound or take saves. There is nothing in the rule stating that this can only occur once. So if you get hit with five psi-shock grenades or missiles (Sisters of Silence can do this), you take five Perils of the Warp tests, each being randomly assigned to a psyker in the target unit. 

 

 

As i said, just because it doesn't exclusively state that it occurs only once, it doesn't automatically mean it occurs for every hit taken either. The rule says nothing that could be translated as it happening for every hit. Therefore i don't really see how that could be counted as a valid argument. 

 

Because with that logic, since the rule doesn't point to either direction, we should apply both points of view at the same because based on that they both would be equally valid, and surely we all see how that doesn't work.

 

But i do agree with causing multiple perils on the psyker unit if they end up fired upon by multiple weapon profiles with the psi-shock rule.

[Baluc]

It would be for each weapon. Roll weapons with multiple shots individually.

[NoLifeKing]

It would be for each weapon. Roll weapons with multiple shots individually.

 

And why would this be the case? I am curious as to your reasoning.

[Unknown Legionnaire]

Dude ...

 

Reclusiarch Darius as well as myself explained it in our above posts. Re-read them please as I don't wanna quote myself.

 

Or are you just being unhappy about the fact that a unit of crossbow sisters might take out Erebus ... 

[NoLifeKing]

Dude ...

 

Reclusiarch Darius as well as myself explained it in our above posts. Re-read them please as I don't wanna quote myself.

 

Or are you just being unhappy about the fact that a unit of crossbow sisters might take out Erebus ... 

Are you truly so petty as to use an accusation, me having a biased point of view regarding this rule, as an argument? 

And i thought i was viewed as the ill mannered brother here.

 

No, im not unhappy about any of my psykers being possibly threatened by some witch hunter schenanigans. What i might end up unhappy about tho is the possible misinterpretation of rules be it beneficial or harmful towards the army i prefer to play. 

 

I did present a list of reasonable points that support me in my argument against that being the intended function of the rule, which you obviously skipped and refused to even engage. 

 

So let me ask you then Unknown Legionnaire while we're all being petty and childish here, are you just unhappy about the fact that a unit might not be the saving grace against psykers that your army needs?

 

Edit: Also, do you really believe that the psi-shock weaponry were intended to work "weapon by weapon", resulting in those weird and cluncky dice rolling for every weapon held by the squad individually. 

I could make peace with the belief that it perils on every hit scored by the unit, but rolling every weapon in the squad individually? Even you must admit that the idea of that being the designed function of the rule.

[Baluc]

 

 

It would be for each weapon. Roll weapons with multiple shots individually.

And why would this be the case? I am curious as to your reasoning.

Cause it says hit by a weapon. Not for each hit. Which means no matter how many hits a weapon puts out it can only do 1 perils for that weapon.

[NoLifeKing]

 

 

It would be for each weapon. Roll weapons with multiple shots individually.

And why would this be the case? I am curious as to your reasoning.

Cause it says hit by a weapon. Not for each hit. Which means no matter how many hits a weapon puts out it can only do 1 perils for that weapon.

 

That makes sense. But it would still make the rule quite unwieldy to doubt it being intended to work like that, do we have any examples of other weapon types or special rules functioning this way to support this theory?

[Quixus]

Encarmine swords/axes on Sanguinary Guard. One reroll per weapon (mastercrafted).

[SkimaskMohawk]

 

 

 

It would be for each weapon. Roll weapons with multiple shots individually.

And why would this be the case? I am curious as to your reasoning.

Cause it says hit by a weapon. Not for each hit. Which means no matter how many hits a weapon puts out it can only do 1 perils for that weapon.

 

That makes sense. But it would still make the rule quite unwieldy to doubt it being intended to work like that, do we have any examples of other weapon types or special rules functioning this way to support this theory?

 

 

None of the weapons are multi-shot, it doesn't matter

[AceofAllTradez]

Hmmm looks like we will need forgeworld to clarify on this.....

[Raktra]

 

 

 

 

 

 

It would be for each weapon. Roll weapons with multiple shots individually.

And why would this be the case? I am curious as to your reasoning.

Cause it says hit by a weapon. Not for each hit. Which means no matter how many hits a weapon puts out it can only do 1 perils for that weapon.

That makes sense. But it would still make the rule quite unwieldy to doubt it being intended to work like that, do we have any examples of other weapon types or special rules functioning this way to support this theory?

None of the weapons are multi-shot, it doesn't matter

SoS have rapid fire ones, so it does.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

It doesn't require an FAQ. Every time you cause a hit with a Psi-Shock weapon, you force a random Perils. Simple.

[AceofAllTradez]

It doesn't require an FAQ. Every time you cause a hit with a Psi-Shock weapon, you force a random Perils. Simple.

I understand. I completely agree, but I think the only way to stop any disagreement is if forgeworld were to clarify on this.

[Baluc]

There have been examples of weapons that cause pinning, for example. Too be honest RAW its definetly a test for each weapon that hit, because that is what is says. But, I could see FW saying we definietly meant what would amount to "hit by one or more weapons".

 

I don't think the RAW interpretation is OP so I'm probably running with that.