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Fixing Space Wolves Units in 8th Edition


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#1
Valerian

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So, to liven up The Fang a little while we wait for what's in store, I'm starting this activity:

Pick a current unit that is an underperforming choice in 7e (call it poor internal and/or external balance), explain why it doesn't work well in most lists, and then tell us what you'd propose to fix it.

Of course, we don't know any of the new rules mechanics beyond what GW has already leaked, just we'll have to make some assumptions that everything else in the core rules will remain more or less the same.

So, what units would you like to see fixed for the next edition?
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#2
Caldersson

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Mind you this is someone who has only read and watched games but not played... so next to nothing if not less so.

 

For my pick on under performing units is Blood Claws.

Personally I would like to see Blood Claws used more, seems like everyone views them as a tax and burden to get their formation. Without knowing the full rules of 8th, maybe something that if BC's are joined by a wolf priest they all get rage or +1A or +1S. Something to emphasize they are for CQC, while GH are for more balanced for Ranged+Melee, but 10 GH + WP vs 10 BC + WP in CQC would have the BC coming victorious.

 

 

Other thoughts...

I think other than our GH are rather nice though I can't  figure out why the cost the same as tact marines minus a sergeant.

 

Long Fang... I think our ancients are useless. The Devastator Sergeant has Signum to boost one troop to BS5. Also Long Fangs need helfrost weapons (with changed helfrost rules).

 

Swift Claws I feel are ignored and I rarely see them, along with skyclaws. Not sure what to do about them.


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#3
Valerian

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Claws (Blood, Swift, and Sky) all already get Rage; it's pretty much their only special rule.

 

V



#4
postxhumanity

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I think the usefulness of terminators is severely limited by the fact that they can't make sweeping advances. Now this limitation applies to terminators for all SM chapters, but I think it's particularly relevant to the Space Wolves: I just don't see any role for terminators in an army that can take Thunderwolf Cav and Wulfen. TWC and Wulfen are more mobile, can make sweeping advances, have multiple woulds, can be equipped with Storm Shields for a 3++, and have access to AP 2 melee weapons. Terminators have an advantage in that they have 2+ armor and can deep strike, but I don't think that comes close to making up for their shortcomings. 

 

As far as what to do to fix this...if some of the rumors about 8th edition are true, I think this is already on its way to being fixed. By using save modifier rather than straight AP values, terminators may start standing out as true tanks (especially if their armor works the way it does in shadow war, using 2D6). Furthermore, if losing a combat and failing the subsequent leadership test causes the losing unit to take additional wounds, rather than to run away, Wolf Guard terminators may be able to wipe out units with brutal efficiency, rather than win a single round of combat only for the enemy to disengage and shoot them off the board. 


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#5
Rift Blade

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Space Wolf Scouts--lets face it. All other Chapters's scouts are initiates while ours are usually Gray Hunters that don't fit into a regular pack. Full fledge Space Marines with the experience that comes with being one. How to fix them? That's been bandied about a lot. Give them back their old OBEL? Let them assault the turn they come on? Some other ability? I'd like to see them have the old operate behind enemy lines and being able to assault the turn they come on. Limit them to one pack per army if need be but it would be nice if our scouts lived up to even half the fluff for them as well as their inherent potential with them being so different then all the other chapter's Scouts.


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#6
Valerian

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This quote from today's announcement really makes me hopeful:

 

"This is the game you know, but improved, faster, bloodier and better. The rules team have gone to great lengths to make sure that every unit, weapon, vehicle and character has its role – everything will be useful, and every miniature will have a place in your army."

 

If they've really gone back to the drawing board to make every choice worthwhile, then I'll be a very happy Rune Lord.

 

 

V



#7
Fang_Guard23

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Njal Stormcaller, lets face it, he isn't what he used to be, that really made him weaker but what they did was simply to reduce his invul saves and take away his lord of tempests table.

 

I just can't think up a list to use him with.



#8
NightHowler

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Dreadnaughts.  I love me some dreads.  I own 8, 5 of which are assembled enough to put on a table (although only one is painted).  But lately if someone breathes on them wrong they fall over - even the axe and shield dreads are only durable on their front facing.  Grav.  Haywire.  Not to mention, the volume of fire capable of glancing them down is so high, it's never a question of "can my opponent destroy my dread," its a question of "will my opponent choose to destroy my dread this turn."  If I put them in a lucius pod, the enemy can just surround the pod and wreck it - and RAW the dread is just removed with the pod because they can't disembark.

 

I'd like to see a couple of changes to dreads:

1. Let them tank shock - if a 12 foot tall armored robot puts his shoulder down and charges at my platoon, is he REALLY going to stop when he gets into base to base with the first trooper?  Additionally, I'd like for them to be able to tank shock out of a vehicle (like a drop pod or mastadon).

2. Change the way vehicles are damaged.  this whole "every glance takes a hull point" business is a little weak.  Maybe make it so glances or imobilizations have a "chance" to remove a hull point.  

3. Increase the number of hull points (for all vehicles - dreads included).

 

The number of weapons with melta, grav, haywire, or S6 or greater that pump out 4 shots or more per turn is not likely to go down (in fact I fully expect the arms race to continue to get more out of hand), but I would like to see all vehicles (including my beloved dreads) become more durable to keep up.


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#9
jbickb

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I think I am going to go a bit over board and piggy back off dreads with vehicles in general. I think vehicles across the board need some beefing up. I have always disliked that they have no save. It always made me feel at the mercy of my opponents dice. I know it random either way, it just feels less helpless when you get a shot at rolling a save. Also, while I understand the thematic nature of it, the ability to one shot a vehicle from the game with a lucky roll (in some cases not even that lucky) is just crippling. Either they need to come down in points (looking at you land raiders) or go up in durability
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#10
Caldersson

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Claws (Blood, Swift, and Sky) all already get Rage; it's pretty much their only special rule.

 

V

 

eh like i said my opinion is next to nothing. I just wish that BC's were more prevalent and useful.


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#11
Vash113

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eh like i said my opinion is next to nothing. I just wish that BC's were more prevalent and useful.

 

 

I totally agree about Blood Claws, they just are objectively not as useful or cost effective as Gray Hunters.

 

Which is why I'd like to see all claws, Blood, Swift and Sky, get WS/BS 4 just like all Space Marine Scouts. If Claws were more consistently hitting on 3's against average opponents and not being hit on 3's by other Marines it would instantly make them considerably more useful and effective and really add substance to their higher number of attacks over Gray Hunters.


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#12
TheDuck

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I think our foot troops in general, as well as our vehicles, need a buff. Our fast attack's fine, what with TWC and Bikes, and we can take some good Wolf Star HQs, and some good footslogging lords (Ragnar and Ulrik), but our BCs, Grey Hunters, Long Fangs, and Termies could do with some obvious beefing up. I've always been of the opinion that terminators should be multi wound models, and I still think that now, and as previous posts have mentioned, with the prevalence of heavy grav and melta shots abounding, our vehicles could really do with some increased durability and hull points.

#13
Halfpint100

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Terminators are just not good enough compared to wulfen and thunderwolves unfortunately and they are a similar cost. I don't see the point of swift claws. It would be better to ally with white scars for their bikers for a single point more. The poor wolf scouts as well, no different to other chapters scouts now, but with a higher price
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#14
Valerian

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Claws (Blood, Swift, and Sky) all already get Rage; it's pretty much their only special rule.

V


eh like i said my opinion is next to nothing. I just wish that BC's were more prevalent and useful.


Definitely agree with that; they do need some love. I've always thought a second hidden SCCW choice within the pack would go along way. Give Grey Hunters the two Special Weapons and one Special Close Combat Weapon choices, as they have now, and give all Claws units the opposite.

EDIT: Hopefully Chainswords get a bit of a boon, as well, as Assault Marines of all flavors have never been particularly effective at assaulting.

#15
Runefyre

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Overall, I just wish we had more rules synergy. I'm tired of having such lack-lustre "chapter tactics" rules, i.e. counter attack and acute senses.

 

Compare that to just about any other codex and it's rather lacking, especially acute senses.

 

We have barely any outflanking units, even though everything is "good" at it.

 

I would love it if the +1WS from our Heresy Era rules makes it into 40k.


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#16
NightHowler

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Overall, I just wish we had more rules synergy. I'm tired of having such lack-lustre "chapter tactics" rules, i.e. counter attack and acute senses.
 
Compare that to just about any other codex and it's rather lacking, especially acute senses.
 
We have barely any outflanking units, even though everything is "good" at it.
 
I would love it if the +1WS from our Heresy Era rules makes it into 40k.

Agree with all of this. I like the idea of acute senses (fluffy for our canis helix) but make it useful. I'd drop the reroll outflank and add an infiltrate denial - not only does it make more sense in the "I could smell you coming" narrative forging, but it's also more useful. And if GW wanted to keep the reroll outflank rule, I wouldn't be too upset, but I can't remember the last time I wanted to outflank - "here, let me put all my models right here next to your gunline for a turn before they charge so you can get a full turn of shooting at them with literally everything in your army."

Now if we got a rule that let us charge from outflank my feelings about acute senses would change considerably.

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#17
Chaplain Otho

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For my money the basic units are ok  but the special characters are lacking,

Ragnar needs eternal warrior and some rule to buff all nearby Bloodclaws, maybe make them all fearless?

Logan needs to come down in points and some army wide buff, allowing units to assault from reserve would be great

Njal again just too expensive,

 

I think wolf scouts ae ok but need some rule like preferred enemy to make the more elite,

 

Terminators overall not just SW ones should be ablee to sweeping advance or have 2 wounds,



#18
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Space Wolves 'Claws' units: The ONLY Astartes in the galaxy at WS3, BS3... They've been through no fewer biological changes than any other Astartes and had training too... can't understand why they don't fight as well or shoot. Needs to be fixed. 

 

I've got a WHOLE SOAP BOX about Space Wolves Scouts... elite means costs more, no transports and not a 'troop' choice for Objective Secured (which may or may NOT be of specific relevance in 8th)? GREAT who wouldn't want that? Wolf Scouts used to be the PREMIER Astartes snipers at a higher BS than any other scouts, worth the Elite bump. OBEL was AWESOME and made Wolf Scouts worth the Elite bump. Access to different weapons being the ONLY upside to Wolf Scouts... NOT worth it. 

 

Access to more Helfrost (at LEAST in the same formats as Codex Chapters get Grav in)

 

MOST of my current issues with Wolves I'd have with any marines. Terminators not worth the cost (mentioned). Also, 3+ used to MEAN something but with AP2 and AP3 weapons EVERYWHERE it's not as dependable as it used to be. We refer to most 'troop' choices as a 'Tax' these days. The Tactical Squads or Grey Hunter Squads were the CORE of the army and everything else supported them. Now we take them because we HAVE TO to unlock the other goodies. Also be careful about going back to days past on Vehicles. I remember invulnerable rhinos just shrugging off glance after glance in 5th...  None of that was on topic...

 

I also wouldn't mind access to a cheaper flyer than the StormGRRR. I like the idea of Storm Talons just to keep the other guy honest. However at 250 points for 1 you're making it a VERY important part of your army.


Edited by Gemini, 23 April 2017 - 09:28 PM.

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#19
Wispy

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This is just speculation, but I hope for some clearer unit niches amonst the units.

Wulfen and Thunderwolves cannibilize a lot of other unit rolls. The ability to employ elite only armies has hurt Space Wolves troops usefulness a lot.

Grey Hunters need to have a job only they can fullfill and one that doesn't undermine Blood Claws.

I'd like to see Greyhunters capture the fantasy of relentless and dogged pursuers at range. Maybe you can do somethings with them where they debuff there targets the more the hunters focus on them? Such as lose move movement range or punish enemy ballistic skill, softening up targets for assault units to pounce.

I like Wulfen as an army buffer and Thunderwolves as a mobile assault unit. Terminators i think having an emphasis on being defensive stalwarts is easy. What to do with Bloodclaws with so many assault options is a big question mark for me.

Edited by Wispy, 23 April 2017 - 10:13 PM.


#20
Valerian

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Yeah, if Blood Claws were good at their job, we wouldn't need Wulfen and TWC.

#21
RikuEru

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Yeah, if Blood Claws were good at their job, we wouldn't need Wulfen and TWC.

Well, that's actually the core of our complains isn't it?
(What follows is an opinion piece to paint a mental picture, not a scientific assignment about the effectivity of our units)

What units are viable?
TWC, Wulfen - aided by Land Speeders or Long Fangs, sometimes.
Rune Priests thanks to the formation.
Iron Priests on TWC, sometimes Wolf Lords on TWC.


The Rest?

WG, BC ans GH are all power armored Marines- but none of them are that viable, as they are shot of the board to easy, none of them having such a special role compared to the other two. (Rage? Two special weapons? Combi Weapons? Wow...)

WG Terminators? Haven't seen battle since Russ has left us, some would say...

Scouts and Lone Wolves? Getting greyer each day...

And the Dreadnoughts sleep for Eternity.

Not even our Characters see the battlefield often!

And we have a kit for two Chapter-specific Fliers - who rust and rot in our Armouries


I know, there are probably examples among your armies for each and every unit or character being used during 7. Edition.
...but is that due to them being effective and fun to play - or because we're a nostalgic bunch, attached to our favourites?


I'd love 8. Edition to make everything a bit more viable.
Lukas and Blood Claws flanking enemy support units?
WG and Ragnar drop podding behind the enemy to take out a special unit?
Logan and TWC riding in to take out the enemy LoW?
Arjac and Shieldbrothers rolling in to take some fire for Scouts and Long Fangs to shoot unharmed?

Yes, please and a barrel of Mjod on top!

Of course this could get messy and maybe not as easy to manage as straightforward Codex-following Ultramarines - but I would like it. It would suit our temper and style.
It could give distinction to us and other chapters. DAs relying on the different Wings to work together, etc.

Edited by RikuEru, 24 April 2017 - 12:18 AM.

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#22
VIth

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The absolute best thing they could do for the Rout is drop Thunderwolves and pretend they never happened then buff our infantry: all Claw units, Wolf Scouts, Grey Hunters, and Long Fangs. Thunderwolves were an embarrassing bait-and-switch for those of us who joined for the awesome infantry.
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#23
Valerian

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I don't mind keeping the TWC and Wulfen - they're both pretty characterful units, although I've not yet bothered to buy any of either.  However, that being said, they really do need to design a system where CORE UNITS can do their jobs pretty effectively.  That way everything truly would have it's place in an army.

 

  • Dreadnoughts are the Marines' answer to huge alien creatures and various Xenos war-machines found throughout the galaxy, but they're horribly outclassed when attempting to take those things on.  There is a reason the Grey Knights badly needed the Dreadknight to take on Greater Daemons; their Dreadnoughts aren't up for the task.
  • Blood Claws are supposed the assault, but aren't particularly effective at assaulting, especially against the specialized assault units of various Xenos.
  • Grey Hunters are supposed to be shooty (and decent in assaults where required), but rapid firing bolters and a couple special weapons is pretty underwhelming on today's 40k battlefields.  Compare the results of a Grey Hunter pack firing to an equivalent-sized squad of Tau, or Necron, or Eldar.
  • Long Fangs are supposed to be suppression and anti-tank, but aren't great at either, and aren't mobile at all.  They are easily outclassed by high-strength mobile gun platforms found in many armies.
  • Wolf Scouts could support a variety of roles (harassment, anti-tank, etc.), but lost most of their punch when assaulting from Reserves became taboo.
  • Wolf Guard need to find a new niche, too, ever since the prevalence of AP2 weaponry took away their ability to tank for your characters.

 

If GW can make the meat and potatoes worthwhile, then all of the rest is gravy.


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#24
Wispy

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The absolute best thing they could do for the Rout is drop Thunderwolves and pretend they never happened then buff our infantry: all Claw units, Wolf Scouts, Grey Hunters, and Long Fangs. Thunderwolves were an embarrassing bait-and-switch for those of us who joined for the awesome infantry.

Boo to you 👎
Thunder wolves rule 👍

Edited by Wispy, 24 April 2017 - 04:07 AM.


#25
Wispy

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To expand: the main reason infantry suffers is because the protective power of power armour and transports isn't what it used to be.




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