8th edition has me excited about the GK!

[Prot]

They seemed to indicate unequivocally that unless 'you want to roll for them' that you can pick them as you desire.

 

I think the difference maker in 8th might be the difficulty in counting on the Psychic phase. And the difficulty in utilizing the powers to the same game dominating degree that you can now.

 

It feels like all the wonderful things we've talked about in the weapon changes are actually necessary because of the Psychic phase changes.

 

Also it appears Primaris may not leak into Grey Knights just yet which can be seen as a good thing from the perspective of keeping our model line fully legitimate.

https://spikeybits.com/2017/05/top-20-8th-edition-teasers-from-gws-live-qa.html

After reading a bit about some of the highlights of the 8th edition live FAQ today, am I the only one squinting at the fact that they say the Primaris marines are "more resilient" to Chaos? Leaves me wondering about where that leaves us...

Also, we can select Pyschic powers!! Yay!!

 

Well to be honest I felt that just meant 'resistant' to corruption. I didn't see it as anything that would tread on the Grey Knights work. :)

[Waking Dreamer]

Reading the new vehicle's thread, a core rule seems to be that units that move and fire will suffer -1 To Hit when using heavy weapons. But won't our Dreadknights and Dreadnoughts have heavy weapons for all our shooting? Especially for our DKs which we usually use for its great movement, becomes weaker right after when we want it to shoot and soften up a target we just closer to...?

[Valerian]

There will no doubt be some exceptions to the general rule.  I'd expect things like Terminators and (former) Walkers, and potentially also (former) Monstrous Creatures might get an exception.  

 

However, if they do not, we'll just have to go along with the fact that it is an across the board nerf to Shooting, and haven't the players been complaining about the dominance in Shooting for the last several years?  Even with the initially 8th edition leaks the complaints about melee still being unviable were constant.

[Valerian]

Okay, finally have a little time to pop in here and discuss the news of the day with the Grey Knights fans.

 

So, a lot of new stuff today from both the second Q&A and from the Vehicles article:

 

 

1.  Consolidation into combat is back.  So, wipeout the unit on the charge, then try to consolidate into another unit to lock it.  They can Fall Back, but lose their actions for their turn (with a few exceptions).  Good stuff, and one of those boons to close combat that they were talking about.  This is definitely good for Grey Knights, who, with their Nemesis force weapons have the potential to pretty easily completely wipe-out an enemy unit on the assault.  

 

2.  Old 'Unwieldy' weapons simply strike at a -1 to hit.  As several folks here already guessed, so right on target.  This was the additional penalty that the developers mentioned a week or two back.  Very nice feature.  Still a drawback, but not so much to make it not worthwhile.  It's a good way to force a dilemma in list building.  Love it.  For Grey Knights, now we basically know what we're getting with all of our close combat options now.  We saw most of what we can expect from the Rubric Marines' force weapons, and now we know more-or-less how the Daemonhammer will work.  Still definitely worth taking at least one in every unit, so you've got that high-Strength and high-Damage weapon for the big nasty high-Wound models.  

 

3.  Players select their Psychic Powers (or roll, their choice).  As expected, and discussed at length a few weeks ago in the Psychic Powers thread in Amicus.  Love it.  I expect this will probably only impact our Librarians, Brother-Captains, and Grand Masters.  Every other Grey Knights unit is likely to have a "set" power that will be described on the dataslate (basically just like they do now).

 

4.  Transports can take multiple units up to capacity.  Again, as expected (and as per AoS).  Makes perfect sense to allow Characters to travel with other units, and now you can even pile in two squads into a larger transport.  Good change.  Just ensures we'll get the most use out of our transports.  I expect we'll see some of those 5th and 6th edition era Rhinos and Razorbacks to come back into army lists now that we can't NSF teleport the whole army.  With the requirement to deploy with half of our units on the board in matched play, it'll be smart to protect those units and give them some good tactical mobility with our more survivable transports.  Additionally Razorbacks with their "twin" weaponry options are going to be pretty decently shooty.

 

5.  Command Squads (retinues) will help protect Characters from Snipers.  Again, just like some AoS units, so as expected.  Snipers are still worth having, but won't have a field day against your Characters.  Also reinforces the value of taking a retinue for your Characters which helps encourage "fluffy" lists.  Good stuff.  For the Grey Knights this means that Paladin squads are very likely going to be back in play.  Keep your Grand Master (or other Character) close to the Paladins, so they can do their job and keep him safe on the battlefield.  Hopefully this also means that they've fixed the special rules for the Brotherhood Champion, so he can do the same for the Brother-Captain, since that's a big part of his fluff.

 

6.  Owner picks casualties during wound allocation.  Means your upgrade investments will last longer, which means more damage output from both sides for the duration of the game.  Again, love it.  This will impact everyone, but for us, we can generally count on keeping our Justicars, Daemonhammers, and models with special ranged weapons alive longer, which in turn means that all armies will be more deadly throughout the game.

 

7.  Vehicles can now "fight" in close combat (reflecting the old Tank Shock rule).  We'll all have to think more on this, but this opens up the possibility of leveraging vehicles in a whole new way (sending in Rhinos to absorb the enemy's Overwatch, for example).  I think folks are going to get a whole lot more use out of their investments in vehicles in 8e.

 

8.  Like infantry, vehicles that move will have a -1 to hit with heavy weapons.  This balances vehicles well with the rest of the models in the game.  There will be exceptions, however, and I expect we might see one for Power of the Machine Spirit on Land Raiders, etc., and we might also see an exception for models that were formally Walkers or Monstrous Creatures (and maybe also Terminators).  Remains to be seen, though, and if it does impact most of the vehicles in the game, then that just further boosts melee armies, and I think advantages the Grey Knights over a lot of other armies.

 

V

[Gentlemanloser]

Every Marine can be 'upgraded' to a Primaris.

 

So there should be no reason to not allow GK Primaris Marines.

 

Scratch that, seems like we actually *aren't* a Marine Chapter like every other Marine Chapter...

[Waking Dreamer]

Is it true that models starting from 10 wounds will get diminishing stats?

 

This would make sense since they put a Primarch at only 9 wounds, ensuring he is a beast down to the very last wound. Dreadnoughts should be fine as well, but what about our dreadknights? Would you rather have him 10+ wounds but get weaker at 50% health or keep him under 10 wounds fighting at maximum capacity?

[Waking Dreamer]

Okay, finally have a little time to pop in here and discuss the news of the day with the Grey Knights fans.

 

6.  Owner picks casualties during wound allocation.  Means your upgrade investments will last longer, which means more damage output from both sides for the duration of the game.  Again, love it.  This will impact everyone, but for us, we can generally count on keeping our Justicars, Daemonhammers, and models with special ranged weapons alive longer, which in turn means that all armies will be more deadly throughout the game.

I'm curious, how does the wound allocation work against d3 or d6 damage weapons?

 

Say you have a squad of terminators, you get hit with a d3 damage weapon and all 3 wounds make it through. Can you allocate those 3 wounds to 3 fresh terminators so none is lost, or do they all get resolved on the single model?

[Valerian]

 

Okay, finally have a little time to pop in here and discuss the news of the day with the Grey Knights fans.

 

6. Owner picks casualties during wound allocation. Means your upgrade investments will last longer, which means more damage output from both sides for the duration of the game. Again, love it. This will impact everyone, but for us, we can generally count on keeping our Justicars, Daemonhammers, and models with special ranged weapons alive longer, which in turn means that all armies will be more deadly throughout the game.

I'm curious, how does the wound allocation work against d3 or d6 damage weapons?

 

Say you have a squad of terminators, you get hit with a d3 damage weapon and all 3 wounds make it through. Can you allocate those 3 wounds to 3 fresh terminators so none is lost, or do they all get resolved on the single model?

A Lascannon, for example, can only hit a single target, so if it hits, wounds, and the Terminator fails its save, then the attacker rolls the d6 for damage. If he rolls just 1, then the Terminator got lucky and has 1 wound left. If he rolls above a 1 (2 through 6) then that Terminator is dead. Extra wounds don't spill over within the squad, so the defending player picks which Terminator to remove.

 

A Battlecannon is a little different, as it can do multiple hits and multiple damage, but still works more or less the same. Let's say he rolls his d3 (I think it was d3, it might have been d6), to determine how many shots he gets, and gets a 3. Then he rolls to hit with three dice, and hits with all three, and then rolls to wound with all three. The defender would then pick three models within the squad to make saves. Let's say just one passes; he's safe. The attacker then rolls his d3 damage dice once for each of the two Terminators that failed their save to see if they just take 1 wound, or if they're killed on a roll of either a 2 or a 3. Again, if he rolls a three for damage, it just kills 1 model, as excess wounds don't spill over within the unit.

[Valerian]

Is it true that models starting from 10 wounds will get diminishing stats?

 

This would make sense since they put a Primarch at only 9 wounds, ensuring he is a beast down to the very last wound. Dreadnoughts should be fine as well, but what about our dreadknights? Would you rather have him 10+ wounds but get weaker at 50% health or keep him under 10 wounds fighting at maximum capacity?

We don't know for sure, but that's likely to be there cutoff line for deciding whether a model will/will not get a degradation table.

 

I'd expect Dreadknights to get less than 10 wounds anyway, with no degrading.

[Captain Coolpants]

Yeah I think DK will be 8 or 9 wounds. I'd much rather more wounds but degrade tbh though. Because things that kill them now (pretty much any anti tank gun) will now do D3 or d6 wounds. Ever had your dreadknight deleted by a squad of D-wraiths? Well now every army essentially has the ability to do the same now.

 

Even a battle cannon, atm we will just laugh at your opponent wasting their shots as you take your 2+ save. But now it's 4+/5+ save and will do D3 damage... Then there will be follow up hits from lascannons which will do eeeven more damage, and even heavy bolters will reduce us to a 3+ save.

 

I'm not complaining. It's just we'll have to do a LOT more hiding now

[Myunch]

Yeah I think DK will be 8 or 9 wounds. I'd much rather more wounds but degrade tbh though. Because things that kill them now (pretty much any anti tank gun) will now do D3 or d6 wounds. Ever had your dreadknight deleted by a squad of D-wraiths? Well now every army essentially has the ability to do the same now.

 

Even a battle cannon, atm we will just laugh at your opponent wasting their shots as you take your 2+ save. But now it's 4+/5+ save and will do D3 damage... Then there will be follow up hits from lascannons which will do eeeven more damage, and even heavy bolters will reduce us to a 3+ save.

 

I'm not complaining. It's just we'll have to do a LOT more hiding now

Originally I thought yea less than 10 wounds, but I have to agree on this one. With the plethora of high damage shooting that will undoubtedly be targeting our NDK's I would like to see somewhere in the range of 12-18 wounds on our big guy. Maybe that's too much? I mean c'mon, it's designed to take on Greater Daemons, and if the Lord of Change is any idea (16 wounds) then I feel he should be in that range. I don't know, but I feel like it's guaranteed his Toughness will be higher if he has less wounds and lower if he has more. Either way I'm beyond excited to see how they design it.

[Gentlemanloser]

Aye I was thinking the same after seeing the Greater Daemon teaser.

 

If the NDK has 8 wounds, and the GD twice that...  Well. ;)

[Valerian]

From today's article on close combat weapons:

 

Another high damage option is Force weapons. Take a Grey Knight squad of any sort: every guy in there has a blade that, as well as having all the benefits of the equivalent Power weapon, also dishes out D3 damage on every wound! Those guys are going to be phenomenal up-close killers, as they should be.

 

 

EDIT:  I just had a thought.  Since all of the special close combat weapons appear to be pretty well balanced against each other, I'm expecting that we'll just get to pick the weapon we want for our models with no extra points cost.  The cost for "generic Nemesis weapon) will already be included in the price of a Grey Knights model, and we just use whatever happens to be on the model.  That will be a pretty cool way to do it.  

[Gentlemanloser]

I wonder what Falchions do?

 

Maybe just the same +1A like Chainswords...

[Myunch]

I wonder what Falchions do?

 

Maybe just the same +1A like Chainswords...

Yes that's going to be interesting how they balance that.. maybe +1 attacks with -2 ap at user strength?

[Rurik the blessed]

I wonder what Falchions do?

 

Maybe just the same +1A like Chainswords...

 

Indeed...

my appreciation is:

 

 

Nemesis Swords = power sword with d3 damage

Nemesis Halberd = power axe with d3 damage

Nemesis Staff = power maul with d3 damage (plus some sort of adamantium will or combat save bonus like in previous edition?)

Nemesis Hammer = S x2, ap -4, d3 damage (-1 to hit)

Nemesis Falchions = two chainsword with d3 damage

[Valerian]

I wonder what Falchions do?

 

Maybe just the same +1A like Chainswords...

 

I'd guess they'll look exactly like Lightning Claws, but will do D3 damage instead of D1.  So, yeah, they'll get the +1 Attack for paired Specialist Weapon.  They'll have to be balanced against the other choices, though, so probably S: User and AP-1.

 

V

[Captain Coolpants]

I honestly thought hammers and fists would do d6 damage.

 

So if a power fist does D3 damage,but a basic nemesis weapon also does D3. What do you think a nemesis hammer will do? You think that would then be d6? Or sole other rule or ap-?

[TheMostGood]

They mentioned GK in the melee article today. 
 

 Another high damage option is Force weapons. Take a Grey Knight squad of any sort: every guy in there has a blade that, as well as having all the benefits of the equivalent Power weapon, also dishes out D3 damage on every wound! Those guys are going to be phenomenal up-close killers, as they should be.

 

 

If the trend holds up, each weapon will have a benefit depending on need. I would guess that they would stay largely the same as they are now in terms of added strength and extra attacks go. They will likely all be -3 AP as the article suggests. 

 

This is good news for the GK. Small changes here help in a big way. 

 

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/19/new-warhammer-40000-close-combat-weapons-may19gw-homepage-post-4/

[Valerian]

@TheMostGood.  See post 238, above.

[Happy-inquisitor]

Well to be honest I felt that just meant 'resistant' to corruption. I didn't see it as anything that would tread on the Grey Knights work.

Guilliman gave the order just after the end of the Heresy, in which roughly half the Astartes fell to corruption - you could definitely improve on that and still be a long way short of the purity of the Grey Knights.

[Prot]

I am very happy to see how GK are coming out... seemingly so flexible!

 

I'm actually afraid that between strong special weapon support, Paladins, and Force Weapons, and Psykers... that we may find the costs are very, very high for this army. The sheer selection of weaponry, ranged or melee, makes the army quite good at everything except... perhaps dealing with numbers (since I am assuming that GK are going to end up very expensive.)

 

Just a side note I don't think it would make sense to sprinkle in Primaris with GK. You'd be taking a very flexible force with small numbers and peeling away some boots on the table to get Primaris in the list. Or so it seems for now without knowing points. 

[the jeske]

True, GW in the past tended to over cost melee options without taking in to account the fact that it maybe hard to actualy use the melee units/upgrades. Potential alone could sometimes cost 2-3 pts per model. I hope that it won't happen. GK are going to cost more points, and they are going to be very hard pressed by the new marines. But lets cross our fingers that A the point cost won't  be crippling and that the psychic powers will give GK enough of an edge to keep them valid for a long time.

[Waking Dreamer]

I honestly thought hammers and fists would do d6 damage.

So if a power fist does D3 damage,but a basic nemesis weapon also does D3. What do you think a nemesis hammer will do? You think that would then be d6? Or sole other rule or ap-?

I think it makes sense for the powerfist to d3 damage, this would allow thunderhammers to fall in line and also do d3 damage (plus, inflict the -1 to hit on the opponent imo). This gives our Nemesis Hammer room to be thunderhammers + force making them do d6 damage.

[Plasmablasts]

 

I honestly thought hammers and fists would do d6 damage.

So if a power fist does D3 damage,but a basic nemesis weapon also does D3. What do you think a nemesis hammer will do? You think that would then be d6? Or sole other rule or ap-?

I think it makes sense for the powerfist to d3 damage, this would allow thunderhammers to fall in line and also do d3 damage (plus, inflict the -1 to hit on the opponent imo). This gives our Nemesis Hammer room to be thunderhammers + force making them do d6 damage.

So far, Force is equivalent to an auto-activated Hammerhand in SW:A, so from that I'd expect d6 damage from the Daemonhammer.