8th edition has me excited about the GK!

[Valerian]

If you look at the chaos leaks. They have a data slate for landraider. I'm not impressed.

 

It's one of the only vehicles we've seen so far with a 2+ Save.  Almost all of the others have a 3+.  It has a 10" movement, and can shoot all of its  weapons with no penalty whatsoever, even when moving that far.  It can split fire with all weapons with no penalty, and now has twice the shots that it had before (4 Lascannon and 6 Heavy Bolter, now).  And, it has 16 Wounds.

 

That thing is really good.

[duz_]

Yeh the LR is pretty damn impressive.

 

Other leaks I've seen today is Grav is now S5 and does D:D3 for anything with a better than Sv 3+.

 

Also apparently GKs get a nerfed smite 12" 1 mortal wound

Fair enough it was crazy powerful otherwise

[Zamtro]

 

If you look at the chaos leaks. They have a data slate for landraider. I'm not impressed.

Agreed. I think it needed at least 20 wounds. It also has Rhinos at 70 points.

 

Why 20? they're already 4 times more survivable than 7th and get a 2+ save?

[Valerian]

Yeh the LR is pretty damn impressive.

 

Other leaks I've seen today is Grav is now S5 and does D:D3 for anything with a better than Sv 3+.

That seems fair enough. Doesn't make it the auto-include for regular Space Marines anymore. They'll have to compete against Plasma, Melta, and Flamers again.

 

Also apparently GKs get a nerfed smite 12" 1 mortal wound

Fair enough it was crazy powerful otherwise

Yeah, that's completely fair. I think the Aspiring Sorcerer with the Plague Marine squad has a similar downgraded version. Makes sense, since those units, and obviously our Grey Knights squads, can all spam a lot of Psychic Powers in a turn.

 

Let us know if you see any more GK leaks; I haven't spotted any yet.

 

 

 

Back to the Land Raider - to put its durability in perspective, check out how it compares to the Renegade Knight for how many Bolter shots it would take to destroy it, using averages:

 

Renegade knight: 648

Chaos Land Raider: 864

[Holier Than Thou]

 

 

If you look at the chaos leaks. They have a data slate for landraider. I'm not impressed.

 

Agreed. I think it needed at least 20 wounds. It also has Rhinos at 70 points.

Why 20? they're already 4 times more survivable than 7th and get a 2+ save?

 

It won't really have a 2+ save though, will it? Against the weapons it'll be getting shot with, it'll have a 5+ at best, 6+ vs Melta, two weapons that will do multiple damage with each shot. These could potentially destroy the Land Raider in 3 shots. Yes, it's possibly more durable than in 7th, but that's not really saying much and is dependant on how you look at it. In 7th it was immune to anything lower than strength 8. Now, Plasma wounds on a 5+ and strips it to a 5+ save, the Land Raider gets a save but is now vulnerable to more (all) weapons.

 

Back to the Land Raider - to put its durability in perspective, check out how it compares to the Renegade Knight for how many Bolter shots it would take to destroy it, using averages:Renegade knight: 648Chaos Land Raider: 864

Don't you think it's more appropriate to compare how they stand up to weapons that are more likely to be shot at them? The Knight gets a minimum of 5++ vs Lascannons and Melta and needs at least 4 wounds rolling maximum damage to take down. The Land Raider gets a 5+ vs Lascannon, 6+ vs Melta and takes 3 shots rolling less than maximum damage to take down. The Knight has more than 1.5 times the wounds and a potentially better save against the weapons it is likely to face.

[Valerian]

Well, obviously the 2+ save is the starting point, just as the 3+ save is the starting point for just about every other vehicle that we've seen in the new game so far. So, both will be adjusted down, depending on the AP of the weapon attacking it, which means the Land Raider still has a save advantage over most other vehicles, regardless of what it is being attacked by. The Renegade Knight is a little different, in that it has its own 5++ invulnerable save, so yes, it'll have a nice durability advantage that isn't being accounted for in the 'attacking bolters' example. However, the Knight is a Power Level 23 model, whereas the Land Raider is a Power Level 19. I saw the actual points cost for the Raider, but not the Knight, so unfortunately can't use those as a starting point for comparison.

 

Anyway, the point is that it will be highly survivable, taking an average of 16 Lascannon shots, and 13 Melta shots (not within half range) to bring down, if I did my math right.

[duz_]

I think the whole point of this edition is to balance everything out so there's no auto takes everything is viable.

Vehicles in general will get a boost because of the save + toughness changes.

 

Part of the balance is also to ensure that everything can damage everything and it all dies quickly so games end sooner.

 

Have just finished a 6 round 2 day tournament where several of my games I just didnt have the damage put to take down certain high toughness AV units was a pain. Meanwhile my marines fell over to a stiff breeze.

 

GW seems to be making a point of balancing everything out and I dont think its fair to compare 8th to 7th. From all accounts I've read, heard and spoken about. Its all but a completely new game!

[Zamtro]

 

 

 

If you look at the chaos leaks. They have a data slate for landraider. I'm not impressed.

Agreed. I think it needed at least 20 wounds. It also has Rhinos at 70 points.

Why 20? they're already 4 times more survivable than 7th and get a 2+ save?

 

It won't really have a 2+ save though, will it? Against the weapons it'll be getting shot with, it'll have a 5+ at best, 6+ vs Melta, two weapons that will do multiple damage with each shot. These could potentially destroy the Land Raider in 3 shots. Yes, it's possibly more durable than in 7th, but that's not really saying much and is dependant on how you look at it. In 7th it was immune to anything lower than strength 8. Now, Plasma wounds on a 5+ and strips it to a 5+ save, the Land Raider gets a save but is now vulnerable to more (all) weapons.

 

Back to the Land Raider - to put its durability in perspective, check out how it compares to the Renegade Knight for how many Bolter shots it would take to destroy it, using averages:Renegade knight: 648Chaos Land Raider: 864

Don't you think it's more appropriate to compare how they stand up to weapons that are more likely to be shot at them? The Knight gets a minimum of 5++ vs Lascannons and Melta and needs at least 4 wounds rolling maximum damage to take down. The Land Raider gets a 5+ vs Lascannon, 6+ vs Melta and takes 3 shots rolling less than maximum damage to take down. The Knight has more than 1.5 times the wounds and a potentially better save against the weapons it is likely to face.

 

Well...They're specialized tank killing weapons (Lascannon/Melta) so I'm not shocked that a few good hits can still lay waste. I don't know the maths, but I mean I agree, I think the LR should be T10, either way its still a tough nut, and if your enemy decides to dedicated a tank destroying unit, and it destroys your tank... Doesn't that make sense?

[Holier Than Thou]

 

 

 

 

If you look at the chaos leaks. They have a data slate for landraider. I'm not impressed.

 

Agreed. I think it needed at least 20 wounds. It also has Rhinos at 70 points.

Why 20? they're already 4 times more survivable than 7th and get a 2+ save?

It won't really have a 2+ save though, will it? Against the weapons it'll be getting shot with, it'll have a 5+ at best, 6+ vs Melta, two weapons that will do multiple damage with each shot. These could potentially destroy the Land Raider in 3 shots. Yes, it's possibly more durable than in 7th, but that's not really saying much and is dependant on how you look at it. In 7th it was immune to anything lower than strength 8. Now, Plasma wounds on a 5+ and strips it to a 5+ save, the Land Raider gets a save but is now vulnerable to more (all) weapons.

Back to the Land Raider - to put its durability in perspective, check out how it compares to the Renegade Knight for how many Bolter shots it would take to destroy it, using averages:Renegade knight: 648Chaos Land Raider: 864

 

Don't you think it's more appropriate to compare how they stand up to weapons that are more likely to be shot at them? The Knight gets a minimum of 5++ vs Lascannons and Melta and needs at least 4 wounds rolling maximum damage to take down. The Land Raider gets a 5+ vs Lascannon, 6+ vs Melta and takes 3 shots rolling less than maximum damage to take down. The Knight has more than 1.5 times the wounds and a potentially better save against the weapons it is likely to face.

Well...They're specialized tank killing weapons (Lascannon/Melta) so I'm not shocked that a few good hits can still lay waste. I don't know the maths, but I mean I agree, I think the LR should be T10, either way its still a tough nut, and if your enemy decides to dedicated a tank destroying unit, and it destroys your tank... Doesn't that make sense?

It does. But should a dedicated anti-tank unit (which could possibly be less than half the points cost of the tank) be able to destroy it in one turn with less than their full damage potential? I don't think so.

 

Remember, the Land Raider isn't just a weapons platform like the Knight, it's a transport. The Knight starts off faster and loses 25% of it's speed when it first deteriorates, then goes to 50% of it's starting speed. The Land Raider, which needs to get it's cargo into the thick of things quickly loses half it's speed with the first deterioration then goes to 30%.

[Zamtro]

 

 

 

 

 

If you look at the chaos leaks. They have a data slate for landraider. I'm not impressed.

Agreed. I think it needed at least 20 wounds. It also has Rhinos at 70 points.

Why 20? they're already 4 times more survivable than 7th and get a 2+ save?

It won't really have a 2+ save though, will it? Against the weapons it'll be getting shot with, it'll have a 5+ at best, 6+ vs Melta, two weapons that will do multiple damage with each shot. These could potentially destroy the Land Raider in 3 shots. Yes, it's possibly more durable than in 7th, but that's not really saying much and is dependant on how you look at it. In 7th it was immune to anything lower than strength 8. Now, Plasma wounds on a 5+ and strips it to a 5+ save, the Land Raider gets a save but is now vulnerable to more (all) weapons.

Back to the Land Raider - to put its durability in perspective, check out how it compares to the Renegade Knight for how many Bolter shots it would take to destroy it, using averages:Renegade knight: 648Chaos Land Raider: 864

Don't you think it's more appropriate to compare how they stand up to weapons that are more likely to be shot at them? The Knight gets a minimum of 5++ vs Lascannons and Melta and needs at least 4 wounds rolling maximum damage to take down. The Land Raider gets a 5+ vs Lascannon, 6+ vs Melta and takes 3 shots rolling less than maximum damage to take down. The Knight has more than 1.5 times the wounds and a potentially better save against the weapons it is likely to face.

Well...They're specialized tank killing weapons (Lascannon/Melta) so I'm not shocked that a few good hits can still lay waste. I don't know the maths, but I mean I agree, I think the LR should be T10, either way its still a tough nut, and if your enemy decides to dedicated a tank destroying unit, and it destroys your tank... Doesn't that make sense?

It does. But should a dedicated anti-tank unit (which could possibly be less than half the points cost of the tank) be able to destroy it in one turn with less than their full damage potential? I don't think so.

 

Remember, the Land Raider isn't just a weapons platform like the Knight, it's a transport. The Knight starts off faster and loses 25% of it's speed when it first deteriorates, then goes to 50% of it's starting speed. The Land Raider, which needs to get it's cargo into the thick of things quickly loses half it's speed with the first deterioration then goes to 30%.

 

That's also it... around 260 for a LR - essentially 16 Wounds with no invul save. But can transport, still moves a solid distance, and (variants) put out a lot of fire power... say 4 Lascannon shots, Multmelta and heavy bolter themselves. A lucky lascannon can kill a 200 point captain in one shot. You need a minimum at least 3 GOOD shots to take out a land raider in one go. For the points - Its appropriate I feel.

[LuisMars]

http://i.imgur.com/PTsoCze.jpg

 

Taken from: http://imgur.com/a/gu4pw

 

Unless we have a special rule or something, this is really bad for us.

[Holier Than Thou]

http://i.imgur.com/PTsoCze.jpg

 

Taken from: http://imgur.com/a/gu4pw

 

Unless we have a special rule or something, this is really bad for us.

We MUST have some way of ignoring this.

[Valerian]

Storm Bolters are Rapid Fire 2 weapons, which means 4 shots each within 12".  Not bad!

[Holier Than Thou]

Storm Bolters are Rapid Fire 2 weapons, which means 4 shots each within 12".  Not bad!

So we can't advance and shoot? Oh well, at least we'll ruin thing when we teleport in. Rapid Fire doesn't stop us charging though, does it?

[Zamtro]

 

Storm Bolters are Rapid Fire 2 weapons, which means 4 shots each within 12".  Not bad!

So we can't advance and shoot? Oh well, at least we'll ruin thing when we teleport in. Rapid Fire doesn't stop us charging though, does it?

 

Nope! We can drop in 9inches away, blaze with 4 shots per Storm Bolter then attempt a charge if we so desire!

[Valerian]

 

 

Storm Bolters are Rapid Fire 2 weapons, which means 4 shots each within 12".  Not bad!

So we can't advance and shoot? Oh well, at least we'll ruin thing when we teleport in. Rapid Fire doesn't stop us charging though, does it?

 

Nope! We can drop in 9inches away, blaze with 4 shots per Storm Bolter then attempt a charge if we so desire!

 

 

If there is anybody left to charge, that is!

 

http://i.imgur.com/PTsoCze.jpg

 

Taken from: http://imgur.com/a/gu4pw

 

Unless we have a special rule or something, this is really bad for us.

We MUST have some way of ignoring this.

 

 

At least for our "routine" squad-level powers, we'll probably have a work-around.  I can see this being enforced for our "big" powers (like Vortex, etc.) that our Librarians will get access to, though.

[Aethernitas]

Just two tidbits I found on 4chan:

Inquisitors can enter any Imperial vehicle and give bubble buffs to Imperium keyword units, depending on the Ordo chosen.

Dreadknight
M8" S6 T6 W12
Heavy Psycannon 24" S7 -1 2 damage
Psylencer Heavy 6 S4 1d3 damage.

[Valerian]

I wonder how many shots that heavy Psycannon gets.

[Aethernitas]

I wonder how many shots that heavy Psycannon gets.

Sadly that wasn't mentioned

I'm going out on a limb here and say the psycannon still has 4 shots because they didn't change the Psilencers number of shots. The standard Psycannon could share the exact profile except for dmg 1 instead of 2?

[Valerian]

Well, the Psycannon used to mimic the assault cannon, with +1 Str, and those have gone to 6 shots each, too.

[Zamtro]

Well, the Psycannon used to mimic the assault cannon, with +1 Str, and those have gone to 6 shots each, too.

Hopefully Vehicles get to keep their current upgrades - Because I'd love for my 2 purgation squads with their Razorback+TL assault cannons to still be handy... Yeh it'll cost some points but it will lay down some fury!

[duz_]

New TL assault cannon is 12 shots. :D

[Waking Dreamer]

Just two tidbits I found on 4chan:

 

Dreadknight

M8" S6 T6 W12

Heavy Psycannon 24" S7 -1 2 damage

Psylencer Heavy 6 S4 1d3 damage.

 

So as much wounds as some of us reasonably expected. Hopefully the stat degradation isnt too crippling.

 

Our dreadknights are footslogging as fast as a Primarch, not bad - but hopefully GW hasnt completely done away with it's PT/jump/shunt nature. It's 12"/30" movement abilities were mandatory to why it was so capable in previous editions. Hopefully some like that has been translated to 8th, as with it's stat degradation it might even be footslogging slower than 8" a turn.

 

Interesting how dreadnaughts will be wounding dreadknights on a 2+ while the latter will (most likely) return wounds on a 3+.

[Valerian]

The loss of Personal Teleporter for Dreadknights is definitely a huge concern. Waiting with fingers crossed.

[Valerian]

Psychic Hood: You can add 1 to Deny the Witch tests you take for this model against enemy Psykers within 12”