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Prot's Take on BIG Changes for Deathwatch in 8th Edition

8th edition deathwatch

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#151
Vel'Cona

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As of right now, DW very much looks like 'worst of both worlds' kind of deal, no pistols, no chainswords (and given they are not on sprue, wouldn't hold my breath waiting for one), hell, to make it even funnier, DW captain kit that comes with only chain/power sword options in plastic has only generic CCW in book too. Kelly and Cruddace never fail to make their already garbage writing worse down.gif

 

Ah, but we know for a fact that Datasheets will be "refreshed" for 8th to represent the new Power Levels, characteristics, what have you.  So this is TOTALLY repairable before 8th edition launches.  :)


Losing 'hope' after 10k years just because of a big warp storm? Doesn't sound like my Blood Angels.

Never had hope to begin with; they had duty, and that was enough.

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#152
Silas7

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New reveal on chainsword rules is good for Deathwatch. +1 A on the base guys.


Holy Terra, is this actual future-proofing??? eek.gif

Unless CCW = chainsword, i'm not sure what you mean.
“A model may replace his boltgun, bolt pistol and/or Melee weapon with one of the following:
Chainsword free”

Excerpt From: Workshop, Games. “Codex: Deathwatch Enhanced Edition.” v1.1. Games Workshop, 2016.

 

Yes but we don't know what wargear options DW will have in 8th. Right now CCW has no purpose and we have no idea what restrictions/buffs SIA will have. It could turn out to be completely stupid to give the whole squad CS's when we don't know points.

 

Which leads to vel'cona's post below.

 

 

 

As of right now, DW very much looks like 'worst of both worlds' kind of deal, no pistols, no chainswords (and given they are not on sprue, wouldn't hold my breath waiting for one), hell, to make it even funnier, DW captain kit that comes with only chain/power sword options in plastic has only generic CCW in book too. Kelly and Cruddace never fail to make their already garbage writing worse down.gif

 

Ah, but we know for a fact that Datasheets will be "refreshed" for 8th to represent the new Power Levels, characteristics, what have you.  So this is TOTALLY repairable before 8th edition launches.  smile.png

 

 

Just give us the rules already GW!!!


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There is only the Emperor and he is our shield and protector.

 

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#153
Moostick

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They better just give us chainswords or I will cry as I rip every chainsword conversion I made apart.

 

Looks like we were right about the power weapons though. In case anyone missed it, I did a version 2 of the save/wound referencing everything up to T12. The Maul is officially the worst power weapon to bring out of the three.

 

HOWEVER! We do not know if there will be a points difference, or if a magical rule will pop up later. So don't go breaking models just yet.



#154
Prot

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But what about hitting transports? Would the Maul not serve that purpose?


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#155
Moostick

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Don't vehicles have saves now as well? Unless annihilation barge is a walker and only walkers get saves.

#156
LordCommanderSamirus

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All vehicles get saves. Mauls will be better against anything T10 or higher. Axe and sword are better in nearly all other scenarios.

Edited by LordCommanderSamirus, 19 May 2017 - 10:45 PM.


#157
Moostick

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Yes, the Maul shines when it's T10 or T11, with a save of 5+ or worse. At T12 and above, the maul is worst performing weapon, except for saves of 6+. Anything with a 4+ save, it's only slightly better at high T values.

 

The question is how often are we going to find models with T10/11 and a 5/6+ save? Probably not often, so overall, currently it's looking to be the worst option.

 

Edit: Reposting the modified chart saves2
 
Don't let the even averages fool you. The 6+ saves skew Maul's numbers. If you take into account what types of models you'll likely encounter the most often, and how much better the Maul is when it is better, it's not that great.

Edited by Moostick, 19 May 2017 - 11:43 PM.

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#158
bluntpencil

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I'm waiting for the stats on relic blades.

 

I'm predicting they'll become Space Marines' go-to-melee weapons.



#159
Prot

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Someone on /tg/ Math'd out the new power weapon stats, heres the gist of it.

 

VS toughness 3 models 
with a 6+ save maul is the best
with a 5+ save maul is the best
with a 4+ save sword is the best
with a 3+ save sword is the best

VS toughness 4 models 
with a 6+ save axe and maul are equal
with a 5+ save axe is the best
with a 4+ save axe is the best
with a 3+ save sword is the best
with a 2+ save sword and axe are equal

VS toughness 5 models 
with a 6+ save maul is the best
with a 5+ save maul is the best
with a 4+ save maul is the best
with a 3+ save maul and axe are equal
with a 2+ save axe is the best

VS toughness 6 models 
with a 6+ save maul is the best
with a 5+ save maul is the best
with a 4+ save maul is the best
with a 3+ save sword is the best
with a 2+ save sword is the best

VS toughness 7 models 
with a 6+ save all are equal
with a 5+ save sword and axe are equal
with a 4+ save sword is the best
with a 3+ save sword is the best
with a 2+ save sword is the best

VS toughness 8 and 9 models 
with a 6+ save maul is the best
with a 5+ save maul is the best
with a 4+ save axe is the best
with a 3+ save axe is the best
with a 2+ save axe is the best

13 situations where mauls are better or equal
11 situations where axes are better or equal
11 situations where swords are better or equal

 


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#160
bluntpencil

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Someone on /tg/ Math'd out the new power weapon stats, heres the gist of it.

 

VS toughness 3 models 
with a 6+ save maul is the best
with a 5+ save maul is the best
with a 4+ save sword is the best
with a 3+ save sword is the best

VS toughness 4 models 
with a 6+ save axe and maul are equal
with a 5+ save axe is the best
with a 4+ save axe is the best
with a 3+ save sword is the best
with a 2+ save sword and axe are equal

VS toughness 5 models 
with a 6+ save maul is the best
with a 5+ save maul is the best
with a 4+ save maul is the best
with a 3+ save maul and axe are equal
with a 2+ save axe is the best

VS toughness 6 models 
with a 6+ save maul is the best
with a 5+ save maul is the best
with a 4+ save maul is the best
with a 3+ save sword is the best
with a 2+ save sword is the best

VS toughness 7 models 
with a 6+ save all are equal
with a 5+ save sword and axe are equal
with a 4+ save sword is the best
with a 3+ save sword is the best
with a 2+ save sword is the best

VS toughness 8 and 9 models 
with a 6+ save maul is the best
with a 5+ save maul is the best
with a 4+ save axe is the best
with a 3+ save axe is the best
with a 2+ save axe is the best

13 situations where mauls are better or equal
11 situations where axes are better or equal
11 situations where swords are better or equal

 

 

 

Note: this doesn't take invulnerables into account. Invulnerable saves, often carried by independent characters, will make axes edge out over swords.



#161
Prot

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Noted Pencil. I might be ignorant in this assumption but I'm all about making people make saves so I feel strongly about the mace still.

Today we found out a bit more about transports. I am a bit mixed about the revelation personally. I am trying to envision my Deathwatch in Rhinos. If I recall, we can't shoot from them. And of course we know they are more survivable.

The news is they can join our assaults. We know this because it is also revealed that disembarking is done before moving the vehicle, and assaulting the same turn you disembark is legal.

Multiple units can share the same vehicle. So half a squad joins the assault, another squad shoots and the rhino assaults as well.

The thing is we won't be very good at assaulting from Rhinos without major tweaks to our army. I still feel like SIA,combis and our special weapons lend to a better shooting game.

I've always liked the heavy hammer and it will continue in 8th but who knows the rules? The Blackshield felt like such a missed opportunity in 7th.

I do think we will very likely be forced into Rhinos since historically we're mid ranged. And unless pods have special reserves rules for Match Play, we have to deploy at least half our armies.

+edit+
I would add one more thing today.

Our weapons gotta get a whole lot better this edition. Why would I say this?

Check out today's Tyranid faction focus on Warhammer Community. Wow. Some truly scarey stuff But perhaps more importantly the speed of the army is looking incredibly fast leaving little room for counter movements, or time for shooting.

I know I've been guilty of joking how bad we are at tackling Xenos in 8th, but assuming GW is truly fixing everything and we're supposed to be inherently at our best when facing them, then this means we should be seeing some significant improvements in our cost and loadout.

It becomes glaringly apparent that hiding will not be an option.

Edited by Prot, 21 May 2017 - 06:39 PM.

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#162
Moostick

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The twinlinked rule changes makes for some interesting options for Deathwatch. If the points don't change that much, we can get some pretty decent firepower off of Razorbacks instead of Rhinos.

 

The LRR and LRC are also much more dangerous now. With LRC, you can carry an optimal mixture of Vanguards, Terminators or Veterans. Think about the possibilities!



#163
SnakeChisler

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A lot that's coming out explains why they were so insistent on swapping the bolter for a shotgun rather than the chainsword.

1/2 the units on the deck is a bonus for us given that I've tried the 20 marine combat squad 3 drop pod tactic.

I'm assuming dedicated & combat squad doesn't increase the count to 6 units and I've a vague memory of this from a previous edition ( but it could be just edition / mission meld in my head)

Not shooting from Rhino's isn't fully confirmed but seems on the cards given the raider restrictions

There going to have to keyword vehicles/MC's to get a whole load of abilities & weapons to work in 8th while you can simplify the rules a lot fleshbane haywire don't really translate and if you tried to one pot them your dumbing it down & removing fluff & flavour rather than simplifying things.





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