Prot's Take on BIG Changes for Deathwatch in 8th Edition

[Vel'Cona]

As of right now, DW very much looks like 'worst of both worlds' kind of deal, no pistols, no chainswords (and given they are not on sprue, wouldn't hold my breath waiting for one), hell, to make it even funnier, DW captain kit that comes with only chain/power sword options in plastic has only generic CCW in book too. Kelly and Cruddace never fail to make their already garbage writing worse

Ah, but we know for a fact that Datasheets will be "refreshed" for 8th to represent the new Power Levels, characteristics, what have you. So this is TOTALLY repairable before 8th edition launches. :)

[Silas7]

New reveal on chainsword rules is good for Deathwatch. +1 A on the base guys.

Holy Terra, is this actual future-proofing???

Unless CCW = chainsword, i'm not sure what you mean.

“A model may replace his boltgun, bolt pistol and/or Melee weapon with one of the following:

Chainsword free”

Excerpt From: Workshop, Games. “Codex: Deathwatch Enhanced Edition.” v1.1. Games Workshop, 2016.

Yes but we don't know what wargear options DW will have in 8th. Right now CCW has no purpose and we have no idea what restrictions/buffs SIA will have. It could turn out to be completely stupid to give the whole squad CS's when we don't know points.

Which leads to vel'cona's post below.

As of right now, DW very much looks like 'worst of both worlds' kind of deal, no pistols, no chainswords (and given they are not on sprue, wouldn't hold my breath waiting for one), hell, to make it even funnier, DW captain kit that comes with only chain/power sword options in plastic has only generic CCW in book too. Kelly and Cruddace never fail to make their already garbage writing worse

Ah, but we know for a fact that Datasheets will be "refreshed" for 8th to represent the new Power Levels, characteristics, what have you. So this is TOTALLY repairable before 8th edition launches.

Just give us the rules already GW!!!

[Moostick]

They better just give us chainswords or I will cry as I rip every chainsword conversion I made apart.

 

Looks like we were right about the power weapons though. In case anyone missed it, I did a version 2 of the save/wound referencing everything up to T12. The Maul is officially the worst power weapon to bring out of the three.

 

HOWEVER! We do not know if there will be a points difference, or if a magical rule will pop up later. So don't go breaking models just yet.

[Prot]

But what about hitting transports? Would the Maul not serve that purpose?

[Moostick]

Don't vehicles have saves now as well? Unless annihilation barge is a walker and only walkers get saves.

[LordCommanderSamirus]

All vehicles get saves. Mauls will be better against anything T10 or higher. Axe and sword are better in nearly all other scenarios.

[Moostick]

Yes, the Maul shines when it's T10 or T11, with a save of 5+ or worse. At T12 and above, the maul is worst performing weapon, except for saves of 6+. Anything with a 4+ save, it's only slightly better at high T values.

 

The question is how often are we going to find models with T10/11 and a 5/6+ save? Probably not often, so overall, currently it's looking to be the worst option.

 

Edit: Reposting the modified chart

 

Don't let the even averages fool you. The 6+ saves skew Maul's numbers. If you take into account what types of models you'll likely encounter the most often, and how much better the Maul is when it is better, it's not that great.

[bluntpencil]

I'm waiting for the stats on relic blades.

 

I'm predicting they'll become Space Marines' go-to-melee weapons.

[Prot]

 

Someone on /tg/ Math'd out the new power weapon stats, heres the gist of it.

 

VS toughness 3 models 

with a 6+ save maul is the best

with a 5+ save maul is the best

with a 4+ save sword is the best

with a 3+ save sword is the best

 

VS toughness 4 models 

with a 6+ save axe and maul are equal

with a 5+ save axe is the best

with a 4+ save axe is the best

with a 3+ save sword is the best

with a 2+ save sword and axe are equal

 

VS toughness 5 models 

with a 6+ save maul is the best

with a 5+ save maul is the best

with a 4+ save maul is the best

with a 3+ save maul and axe are equal

with a 2+ save axe is the best

 

VS toughness 6 models 

with a 6+ save maul is the best

with a 5+ save maul is the best

with a 4+ save maul is the best

with a 3+ save sword is the best

with a 2+ save sword is the best

 

VS toughness 7 models 

with a 6+ save all are equal

with a 5+ save sword and axe are equal

with a 4+ save sword is the best

with a 3+ save sword is the best

with a 2+ save sword is the best

 

VS toughness 8 and 9 models 

with a 6+ save maul is the best

with a 5+ save maul is the best

with a 4+ save axe is the best

with a 3+ save axe is the best

with a 2+ save axe is the best

 

13 situations where mauls are better or equal

11 situations where axes are better or equal

11 situations where swords are better or equal

 

[bluntpencil]

 

 

Someone on /tg/ Math'd out the new power weapon stats, heres the gist of it.

 

VS toughness 3 models 

with a 6+ save maul is the best

with a 5+ save maul is the best

with a 4+ save sword is the best

with a 3+ save sword is the best

 

VS toughness 4 models 

with a 6+ save axe and maul are equal

with a 5+ save axe is the best

with a 4+ save axe is the best

with a 3+ save sword is the best

with a 2+ save sword and axe are equal

 

VS toughness 5 models 

with a 6+ save maul is the best

with a 5+ save maul is the best

with a 4+ save maul is the best

with a 3+ save maul and axe are equal

with a 2+ save axe is the best

 

VS toughness 6 models 

with a 6+ save maul is the best

with a 5+ save maul is the best

with a 4+ save maul is the best

with a 3+ save sword is the best

with a 2+ save sword is the best

 

VS toughness 7 models 

with a 6+ save all are equal

with a 5+ save sword and axe are equal

with a 4+ save sword is the best

with a 3+ save sword is the best

with a 2+ save sword is the best

 

VS toughness 8 and 9 models 

with a 6+ save maul is the best

with a 5+ save maul is the best

with a 4+ save axe is the best

with a 3+ save axe is the best

with a 2+ save axe is the best

 

13 situations where mauls are better or equal

11 situations where axes are better or equal

11 situations where swords are better or equal

 

 

 

Note: this doesn't take invulnerables into account. Invulnerable saves, often carried by independent characters, will make axes edge out over swords.

[Prot]

Noted Pencil. I might be ignorant in this assumption but I'm all about making people make saves so I feel strongly about the mace still.

 

Today we found out a bit more about transports. I am a bit mixed about the revelation personally. I am trying to envision my Deathwatch in Rhinos. If I recall, we can't shoot from them. And of course we know they are more survivable.

 

The news is they can join our assaults. We know this because it is also revealed that disembarking is done before moving the vehicle, and assaulting the same turn you disembark is legal.

 

Multiple units can share the same vehicle. So half a squad joins the assault, another squad shoots and the rhino assaults as well.

 

The thing is we won't be very good at assaulting from Rhinos without major tweaks to our army. I still feel like SIA,combis and our special weapons lend to a better shooting game.

 

I've always liked the heavy hammer and it will continue in 8th but who knows the rules? The Blackshield felt like such a missed opportunity in 7th.

 

I do think we will very likely be forced into Rhinos since historically we're mid ranged. And unless pods have special reserves rules for Match Play, we have to deploy at least half our armies.

 

+edit+

I would add one more thing today.

 

Our weapons gotta get a whole lot better this edition. Why would I say this?

 

Check out today's Tyranid faction focus on Warhammer Community. Wow. Some truly scarey stuff But perhaps more importantly the speed of the army is looking incredibly fast leaving little room for counter movements, or time for shooting.

 

I know I've been guilty of joking how bad we are at tackling Xenos in 8th, but assuming GW is truly fixing everything and we're supposed to be inherently at our best when facing them, then this means we should be seeing some significant improvements in our cost and loadout.

 

It becomes glaringly apparent that hiding will not be an option.

[Moostick]

The twinlinked rule changes makes for some interesting options for Deathwatch. If the points don't change that much, we can get some pretty decent firepower off of Razorbacks instead of Rhinos.

 

The LRR and LRC are also much more dangerous now. With LRC, you can carry an optimal mixture of Vanguards, Terminators or Veterans. Think about the possibilities!

[SnakeChisler]

A lot that's coming out explains why they were so insistent on swapping the bolter for a shotgun rather than the chainsword.

 

1/2 the units on the deck is a bonus for us given that I've tried the 20 marine combat squad 3 drop pod tactic.

 

I'm assuming dedicated & combat squad doesn't increase the count to 6 units and I've a vague memory of this from a previous edition ( but it could be just edition / mission meld in my head)

 

Not shooting from Rhino's isn't fully confirmed but seems on the cards given the raider restrictions

 

There going to have to keyword vehicles/MC's to get a whole load of abilities & weapons to work in 8th while you can simplify the rules a lot fleshbane haywire don't really translate and if you tried to one pot them your dumbing it down & removing fluff & flavour rather than simplifying things.

[leth]

Big change I didnt see touched on was that defender chooses who takes wounds.  This means that we can actually bring stormshields and know that they will get to take the shots we want them to.  Pretty significant change and is great since most units wont have characters to tank for them anymore. 

[SnakeChisler]

Big change I didnt see touched on was that defender chooses who takes wounds.  This means that we can actually bring stormshields and know that they will get to take the shots we want them to.  Pretty significant change and is great since most units wont have characters to tank for them anymore.

 

Given the range of specialist wargear I reckon squads of 6-8 in Razors rhinos will work out (points depending) the split fire makes a lot of difference both to us and everyone else. You can get a feel of a kill team albeit without a terminator in the squad.

 

Drop podding is going to be a lot riskier 9" is far enough to not want to risk a charge + overwatch but close enough to get counter charged, a good measure of shotgun / frag cannon overwatch would be useful

[Prot]

I think pods, barring some sort of special rule, might drop in favour now that rhinos can be used to steer opponents like in 5th ed.

 

Add in that you can cut off a shabby Ork assault by assaulting them with the rhino and it makes Rhinos and razors look better yet.

 

I do think with traditional model count issues, the assault element is probably not going to be our forte in 8th, especially after what we know now.

 

The rules for that forgeworld Dread are incredible though. I have a feeling forgeworld will play a much larger role for Deathwatch considering how ignored we were in that regard in 7th!

[Runefyre]

I hope that our Power Armor vets still have a deep strike option. This is because the only vehicles I play are dreadnoughts (I stopped using even pods). I'm a huge sucker for the elite operators feel and I lose some of that immersion if I field MBT's or even LAC's.

 

I'm also hoping that the Beacon Angelis makes a return, because it's a must take in my current lists (as I have no manoeuvrability to speak of barring T2 deep strikes).

[Macabre Slanneshi Prince]

I'd assume we're getting at Strategem that gives a unit deep strike for a CP or two.

[Vel'Cona]

It does strike me as interesting that GW hasn't announced any plans for faction Relics or unique Psychic Power lists (a la AoS-Magical Artefacts/Magic Lores).  Either they're saving them for the individual codex releases (likely) or we'll get generic ones for the "greater" factions (Adeptus Astartes, Imperial Guard, etc.).

[Prot]

So the big ol' Captain in Gravis armour is out.

 

Does he help you? He has wide ranging effects apparently, including re-rolls to hit. (which is weird.. makes me think Ultra may lose this as a chapter tactic... perhaps not).

 

Basically he's a 6 wound T5 Captain with benefits. The article is surprisingly sparse, but I have to be honest his cost is way up there. I'd still be inclined to go Termie Captain or even Watchmaster for DW.

[Moostick]

Unless Deathwatch is considered a <chapter>, then there is no reason for us to take a Gravis.

 

Inceptors in the other hand. Deepstriking 18 Str 5 AP -1 shots? Wow.

 

I was holding out for some indication this was not true, but it seems like two melee weapons do nothing now. My poor Vanguards will soon need surgery.

[Silas7]

Maybe

I'll have to wait to see what the rest of the characters stats look like once they've been AOS'd

And only if he gets a multi-part kit as i really don't feel like converting his pose.

those snub hvy bolters just invalidated stormsbolters as of right now.

[Valerian]

those snub hvy bolters just invalidated stormsbolters as of right now.

Well, the GW Facebook page guys did say that Stormbolters will get "oh, so many shots." So maybe Assault 4 now?

It does strike me as interesting that GW hasn't announced any plans for faction Relics or unique Psychic Power lists (a la AoS-Magical Artefacts/Magic Lores). Either they're saving them for the individual codex releases (likely) or we'll get generic ones for the "greater" factions (Adeptus Astartes, Imperial Guard, etc.).

Pretty sure we were told, or it was hinted, that the faction-specific Relics and other things will come with the Codexes down the line.

[Silas7]

Even so I don't think 24'' assault 4 str 4 rend- is going to be enough, they could go overboard with 5 or 6 shots but i'm thinking that grey knight players would get tired of throwing 50-60 die for each unit.

[Valerian]

i'm thinking that grey knight players would get tired of throwing 50-60 die for each unit.

I can't speak for all of them, but that wouldn't bother me one bit